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30 cal vs 338 cal.. elr light gun & king of 1 mile
- Thread starter Schw15
- Start date
I suppose I need to say this... There are so many variables in the discussion concerning speed - consistency - precision. It's important to remember speed is not king. With the 338s 1fps beyond 2900fps basically extends supersonic flight by 1 yard (give or take due to DA). The difference between 2900fps and 3200 fps on a full value 5mph wind call at 2000y is right at .1mils. No question, these are benefits, but I can't help but think Ide rather focus on consistency and precision. Also, a 33xc pushed to 3200fps on average has a "very" short barrel life, though many competitors push them beyond, they are sacrificing consistency and precision.
Last weekend a 338 finished 7th against heavy guns in the Raton Thunder 1.64 match and hit the target at 3700y in the Spring Canyon match. No question, it seriously lacked in comparison to the big guns in Spring Canyon and was pushed around by the wind and vertical, but 2/3s of his misses were within .25moa of the targets.
Again, I only say all this to draw out the point, a lot of things affect the capability of a light gun, heck, a lot of things affect the capability of a heavy gun. It's true, some shooters are pushing the limit on light guns as far as they can, it's also true it's important to know where the limit is concerning consistency and precision. Personally, Lapua brass is better than Peterson brass and Ide only shoot a light gun that was chambered in a variant that uses Lapua brass. You can get low ESs with Peterson bras, but it's easier with Lapua brass. Also, in the right stock/chassis, you can run a 33" barrel on a 338 and make weight (26lb). A 338 Lapua with a long throat shooting 300gr. bullets can easily reach 3000fps (I have one). My brothers 338NMAI with a 33" barrel makes weight by 2ounces and using N570 sends a 300gr. Berger OTM to its resting place at just short of 3100fps (although he uses N565 in Comp. at 2887fps).
A lot affects capability, is a 33xc too much? could be, is a 300WSM not enough, might be. Ide rather focus on consistency and precision ..... Do that, use what you got, see just how far you can get consistently under varying conditions.... Enjoy it. IMHO
FYI ...... Next season, word on the street is Randy Powel will introduce an "ELR Hunter " class to light gun in Raton, Starting target will be around 700y and the 2650y target will be removed. sooooo, 19lbs and under, 30 cal and under, 700 - 2265y targets, will shoot with the standard light guns, but be scored against other hunter-class shooters. Also, will still fall under the Light Gun (Ko1M) ranking system. Deff. some details to work out, but will be a great entry point for the average sportsman who doesn't want to, or can't justify a whole separate "light gun" just to compete with, but they have a good hunting rifle they would like to stretch its legs on.
Not to oversimplify a response, but basically, NO. Both are shooting a 300gr. berger OTM at close to 2900fps. Both have 33" 1:8.5twist KnP barrels. It does seem that his 338NMAI has consistently lower ESs. Not sure if that has something to do with the powder column. I also haven't shot past 2000y. But, he has shot it to 3000y and said he didn't see any real diff. between the two. I prefer to single feed and he shoots a Defiance Tactical LA in a foundation stock so he can shoot matches that require mag. fed options.
yeah, that's what we see. 33XC is deff. in that 400-600 range. My 338 lapua has nearly 1400 and is still good. I think James's 338NMAI is around 1000 right now and still shooting good. Powder column, burn rates, heat, and rate of fire deff. contribute to erosion and barrel wear.
I'm actually dropping back to 300 Norma for light gun. I think in general people are over-gunning themselves.
Both 30 Nosler and 300 Norma are very adequate. a 30 Nosler shooting 230 Bergers went 4 for 5 last week in the light gun class at 2265y, and the young man shooting it was only 14yrs old. There are advantages to a heavier caliber, but generally, I think it would be better to shoot what you know and are comfortable with. Ide rather shoot what I have than wait to shoot something I don't have. I also would not bankrupt my finances to build a dedicated rifle (that's just me), if you have the extra $$$ great, if not, shoot what you've got. The worst day on a range is better than the best day in an office.... Got a 6.5 Creedmoor and great hand loads, bring it, shoot in the Hunter class, and see where the limit is. The community is very helpful, I know if you showed up without a spotter and gear most people would help out. There is always going to be competitors trying to "eek" out every last bit of performance, and there should always be room for the average sportsman to show up, push their limits and be encouraged in the midst of it. IMHO
Going to do a pressure test in my barrel with 250 a-tips and n565 I missed n570 stayed in stock for awhile and forgot to order it. I tested the 250s in another 30 nosler barrel and only got 2780 for accuracy had them almost 2900 but wouldn't shoot.
If you want some, I am getting alerts everyday from Midsouth for 8lb N570.
what's your barrel length? I was running them just shy of 3k in 30 Sherman Mag and 300 RUM both 32" barrels.
@Bandit320 I've heard this before, basically what you gain in BC you lose in velocity so the 250 and 230 end up being pretty equal ballistically. Maybe I'll test out some 230's next time I get short on 250's
I was running lrt at 84 grains 2780. But the chamber was really rough and messed up after the fix switched bullets. But I'm going to revisit them in a bartlein barrel. Better chamber jobs and now I have my own reamer.
I'd also advise to attend a match that AB has their mobile lab set up and shoot for a PDM
I just run the custom drag profile for the 230 on AB Mobile and it runs really close to what my gun is shooting. When I switch it to the G7 drag model it shows 0.421.
Pretty good points all around.
I'd point out that what a cartridge can do in velocity and what it shoots well at are seldom the same thing. I found a good load for a friends 33xc at 3130 with a 300 grain lazer and the reaction I got from a pile of of shooters was amazement that I found a node that was that fast. Most of them were running almost a hundred fps slower.
I was on the fence for a while in my current build and I was considering a 338 Edge or a 338 LMAI because of the barrel life issue. I ended up concluding that while the barrel life amounted to over a dollar a shot in wear, the cost differential between the 338 options was so small in relation to travel costs and ammo costs that the 33xc even assuming the worst case on barrel life was fine. An edge on ToF and supersonic range seemed worth it when I did the marginal difference in cost math.
I'd suggest y'all do that math for yourselves and decide what makes sense for you and what you want out of it.
-Alex
ya I was there and that was brutal, also I was just about to the front of line for unicorn then got called to PDM and had to start in-line again. That’s a huge match tho, it’s gotta be faster at the actual ELR matches that have way less competitors
Call Salida Gunshop in Salida CO. they had N570 last week and I believe they ship. How long is your barrel? twist rate?
LOLOL.... I've asked him a dozen times. On the Tech. side, he told me the pressure node with N565 for his cartridge is broader ( more forgiving to environmental changes ) with N565 at the charge weight/neck tension/shoulder bump he is loading to than N570. I do know he is still doing load development with N570 though. Its deff. where the 33XC shines, the ability to gain higher velocity at lower pressures with a "good" case fill percentage allows for a broader pressure node with a higher velocity produced (if you have the barrel length needed).
Side note:
I think Alex made a good point concerning barrel life in comparison or contrast to cost and performance. I think that if you shoot a lot/compete a lot, the cost of a barrel is minuscule compared to the overall cost to compete, and, you deff. are willing to sacrifice the minor cost of a barrel in comparison to the overall cost to compete (hence you need or are looking for every little gain possible / Spin up 3 barrels at a time, burn 1 doing load development and confirming data, then rotate).
Yeah I agree with the price and amount of barrels.
I was just curious why he did that haha I forgot to ask the other day when you posted it. The n565 is a great powder and gives great es and sd with wide nodes that are forgiving. I love that powder but it does lack in speed.
