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30 shots in 10 minutes?

T

TRPAUBREY

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2011
40
0
55
#1
I am fairly new to bolt action rifles and need some advice. There is a match at the local club on Sunday. It will require firing 30-40 rounds in 10 minutes. I usually use my semi-auto tactical rifle, but I am concidering using my .308 Remington 700 26" heavy barrell police. Would this high round count in a short period of time be hard on the barrell? The barrell of my tactical rifle (Robinson Arms XCR in 7.62x39) can take the heat, but will my heavy barrell Remington be O.K.?

Thanks
 
#2
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

High heat and sustained fire will kill any barrel, it will just eat the throat up in no time. Depending on how many time you do this and how often will determine if your barrel will be damaged to the point of replacement.
 
#3
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I would assume that the barrells on AR15s and rifles like the Rob Arms XCR are made for continuous firing where as a bolt action barrell is not?
 
#4
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Awwww, its not great to heat any precision barrel up like the match does but it is good steel and as long as you dont make fast shooting a habit the harm is minimal. All shooting 'hurts' the barrel it is a question of degree and my thought is the degree is small.

Good Luck
 
#5
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I've done this a few times in my r700 tactical.. Actually I do it maybe once a month just see how fast I can slam 5 rounds and how tight.. I hope I don't run into problems but if I do it will just justify me buying a better barrel..
 
#6
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

The match is a 2 man team, 10 minute timed event. There are 48 steel plates set out from 75 to 300 yards. Most of the plates are 4" wide and 6 " high. If I use my XCR, I will go through alot more ammo because I only have access to surplus 7.62x39.(that crap only gives me 5-6" groups at 200 My 700 is shooting under 1/2 MOA at 100yds, so it shoudn't take as long to clear the field.
 
#7
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRP Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The match is a 2 man team, 10 minute timed event. There are 48 steel plates set out from 75 to 300 yards. Most of the plates are 4" wide and 6 " high. If I use my XCR, I will go through alot more ammo because I only have access to surplus 7.62x39.(that crap only gives me 5-6" groups at 200 My 700 is shooting under 1/2 MOA at 100yds, so it shoudn't take as long to clear the field. </div></div>

The only way I personally see you being able to do that is to just lay a pile of ammo next to you and single load for every shot. Loading the r700 would take up way to much time. I personally think it's doable and I would think that the barrel on the Remingtons could with stand that type of shooting. I'd have to see some proof before I believed otherwise...
 
#8
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Thanks for the input. I have it in an ACIS chassis with detatchable mags.... but the speed at witch a bolt action can be fired is definately something to concider.
 
#10
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

ex·pend·a·ble = Of little significance when compared to an overall purpose, and therefore able to be abandoned.

Barrels are expendable, and are made to be shot. Never consider not shooting in a comp because of the stress that the barrel will take. Practicing for and shooting for a comp of this nature will improve your skills.
 
#11
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

'Slop feeding' is about the only way to shoot a fast string of fire with that many rounds in it. Several ways to do it, I like a bag like the old claymore carrying bag with double the round count for the string in one pouch and the empties put in the other side.

With a little practise you can pluck the empty out of the bolt face all as part of the loading motion.

The bag also keeps your ammo from cooking in the summer sun.

Have fun
 
#12
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

You guys must never get off the porch an shoot any run an gun match's. I've been to many a match where you only had 2-3 minutes to shoot 15-20 rds, at more than one stage. If I worried about my barrel's getting shot out, I'd have to make safe queens out of everything.

I bought my shit to shoot, not to look at and say, damn don't my shit look good in the safe.
How do they shoot? Hell I don't know, are they supposed to be shot?
 
#14
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I am in Canada where we can only have a 5 round mag in our semi-autos. Back in the day when we could have 20 roung mags(1992 and earlier), I used a FN FAL .308 for this match. We used to go through around 200 rounds each in 10 minutes. It realy was not about winning for some of us, it was a contest to see who could put the most rounds down range.
 
#15
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

No its not good on your barrel, but when shooting matches and competitions short barrel life is just one of the prices you are willing to pay for good training. Its part of it. If you want long barrel life and that is what is going to dictate the type of shooting you will do, then stick to F-Class. Tactical Matches = Short Barrel Life
 
#17
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRP Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would assume that the barrells on AR15s and rifles like the Rob Arms XCR are made for continuous firing where as a bolt action barrell is not? </div></div>

Why would you assume this?

The differences may be your accuracy expectation between a semi-auto and a bolt action may be different and the semi-auto may have a chrome lined barrel.
 
#18
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

We do this every April at our range. Have several guys run bolt guns (AI, Rem, Sav, etc) and everything else as well. I think you will do fine with 30 shots in 10min. I run a AR 15 but would be very relaxed using my 308 Bolt gun (Savage 10PC) My team took 3rd last year and I hope to be better this year. I don't think heat will be a concern, just dont miss lots and don't shoot faster than you can handle.
PinCompo1.jpg
 
#19
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I believe this was recently addressed in another thread. In it LowLight posted a video where he pretty much debunked the idea that the heat of the barrel impacts accuracy. In fact here it is.

I have shot over 40 shots through my TRG-22 in under 15 minutes and did not see any issues with accuracy; well none that were not easily attributed to my skills. Being that the OP will be doing this in a tactical match it is more likely the stress and skill will be far more of an impact his accuracy then the heat from the barrel. I say go do it and have some fun!
 
#21
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRP Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would assume that the barrells on AR15s and rifles like the Rob Arms XCR are made for continuous firing where as a bolt action barrell is not? </div></div>

Why would you assume this?

The differences may be your accuracy expectation between a semi-auto and a bolt action may be different and the semi-auto may have a chrome lined barrel. </div></div>

Most AR barrels are chrome lined, the chrome is harder than steel. and yes, guns derived from designs that were originally full auto have taken into consieration very high round counts in very short amout of time.

I had seen an article at one time, I can't recal the number or rounds or the time frame, but they burned the troat of a rifle out in one afternoon.

I'll see if I can track down the article.

ETA:
Found it
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/11/how-to-wear-out-a-barrel-in-one-afternoon/
 
#23
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys must never get off the porch an shoot any run an gun match's. I've been to many a match where you only had 2-3 minutes to shoot 15-20 rds, at more than one stage. If I worried about my barrel's getting shot out, I'd have to make safe queens out of everything.

I bought my shit to shoot, not to look at and say, damn don't my shit look good in the safe.
How do they shoot? Hell I don't know, are they supposed to be shot?</div></div>

+1

shoot it as often as you can and rebarrel it as often as needed.
 
#24
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRP Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would assume that the barrells on AR15s and rifles like the Rob Arms XCR are made for continuous firing where as a bolt action barrell is not? </div></div>

Why would you assume this?

The differences may be your accuracy expectation between a semi-auto and a bolt action may be different and the semi-auto may have a chrome lined barrel. </div></div>

Most AR barrels are chrome lined, the chrome is harder than steel. and yes, guns derived from designs that were originally full auto have taken into consieration very high round counts in very short amout of time.

I had seen an article at one time, I can't recal the number or rounds or the time frame, but they burned the troat of a rifle out in one afternoon.

I'll see if I can track down the article.

ETA:
Found it
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/11/how-to-wear-out-a-barrel-in-one-afternoon/ </div></div>

Heat will kill a barrel; chromelined or not. While the chrome is harder than the barrel steel, it is quite thin and also porous with micro-fissures. Once the chrome flakes, it's game over. That said, 30shots in 10minutes is not excessive. Some stages fire more than 10rds in 2minutes. I would consider that more abusive to the throat. But that's what they're made for.
 
#25
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Assuming your partner does his share, that's 24 targets to you. Figure out where your point of impact is for 100 zero at 200 and 300. Figure the holdover and fire away. If you took the whole 10 minutes, that's 25 seconds per shot. If you can shoot half minute at 100 you should be able to smoke that time = winning.
 
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#26
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Man 20 min Thats forever. For those that shoot Carl's match last year you remember the first stage!
3 rounds in 15 sec.
About a min to reload
Dot drill, 2 shots per dot, 12 dots 1:30 par time
2 min breaks to reload
9 dots one shot per dot 1:00 par

Talk about heating a barrel up!

Is it good for the barrel? He'll no but if you want to shoot in competitions that's the name of the game. Shot fast and accurate!

A 308 is forgiving. I would not recommend shooting that much that fast but during dot drill practice we shoot 10 shot strings 45 sec or less. The time constraint increase pressure and forces you to have good technique.

Single feeding can be very quick if you practice. Not quite as fast as a mag but dang near.

I would go with the bolt gun, you may have to give a deep breath over the barrel to make the mariage go flat to see the target for the next shot.
 
#27
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

We had a rifle that was at the end of its service life so we wanted to really put it to the test. In a single day of firing one of the guys in my platoon ran 1100 rounds through his Schneider barreled M40A1 and his starting round count was over 8k. He cleaned it about every 250-300 rounds. Many of his shooting drills that day were multiple string rapid fire dot drills. The rifle at the end of the day still held sub-moa just like it did at the start of the day.

When we sent the rifle in for service, the 2112 called BS on us for doing bulk entries in the gun book and swore there was no way a single person could shoot that much in a day. I told him that I watched him do it so the armorer said we screwed up the barrel from shooting that fast. The rifle was still going out for rebuilding service from high round count but was still passing throat erosion and headspace for being in service at over 10k rounds, and it still held sub-moa.

Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to shoot.

Gunfighter14e2, big +1.
 
#28
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

There are alot of 308 working rifles out there with 10K+ out the tube. There are a few well documented rifles with 24K+ rifles that hold subMOA.

Compare that to 6.5x284 which cant hold MOA after 1500 rounds and you see not all cartridges wear a barrel the same.

Its always interesting to see what people think is barrel abuse and their backround that drives the opinion.
 
#29
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Huh. I shoot until the mirage is an issue (shoot with a suppressor) and start shooting as soon as I can see the target again.

I would believe I do 30 rounds in 10 minutes frequently, but I guess I'm not really sure, I've never timed it. I also shoot 10 rounds in 2 minutes sometimes, I wasn't under the impression that was "abuse" either.

But then again, perhaps that is why my barrel isn't shooting quite as tight after 3300 rounds? I'm not too worried, I have a spare ready to go. More curious than anything.
 
#30
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Some Folks that are still here, can vouch for this if you don't believe me.
I had GAP do a 300wm with a Rock 10 twist barrel years back, an put over 5440 rds down it in about 3-4 years. I can't tell you how many times it burnt, the case foam, coming home. The stick was still shooting <moa when I "Thought" the barrel was gone. Turned out to be a loose rear ring instead. Sent the Barrel to Rock Creek Barrels for a look see,(that old thread may still be around).
IIRC he said it was still good for another 2-3K rds. A Hot barrel is only relevant to me if it's fed by links.

Years long ago, I have went Far past Uncles book ratings, for barrels on M14's and a few XM21's when shit went wrong. None failed to go bang and they all still put lead where it was supposed to be after they cooled down.
My old 700VS had 12K + down it when it went to GAP and I still could not out shoot it. I put 10K+ down the .308 GAP and it still out shot everyone that tried it. Johnny Cash(todays.308)has about 14K down it right now and that Pac-Nor is still out preforming everything I've ever owned in a .308win.

Barrels are cheap, an trigger time is one of the best teachers if you get out an shoot, quit believing internet B/S and can think/do for yourself.
 
#31
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I would shoot the match and not worry about it. Back in the 90's, I shot a match called "Second Chance". You had 15-20 steel plates for a center-fire rifle(can not remember how many spaced 50-100 yards) and 6 more for a pistol (20 yards). The winning times were around 10 seconds (Jerry Mikulek). I can tell you his AR had seen more .223 rounds than most anyone else. His groups were unbelievable with the stock DPMS, even act extended ranges.

Jerry and I were the only people shooting this event on the back range one day. We took turns but, you couldn't touch our barrels! We ran it at-least 10 times each. I can tell you that I used more than one 30 round clip most times! My AR really hasn't been shot much since. Last week I mounted a scope back on the old girl and shots a few groups. They were under 1/2" using the same old cheap 55gr FMJ's I put together 14 years ago. Seems that it still shoots fine.

My guess is that thirty rounds in 10 minutes should not hurt the barrel enough to matter. Just my 2 cents

Paul
 
#32
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Redmanss thanks for brining that up. I have read many times where Gov rifles have over a 10K round count. I am sure a lot of that round count was high volume shooting.

I say shoot the match and have fun. Tubes are not the cheapest but they are not expensive to a point where a person actually needs to think about every round. Unless you have a barrel burner like a 6.5x284. My grandpa has a 6 x 284 and every year I scope it after my cousin gives it back to him to reload the 40 or 60 casings she shot over the year. I see more and more damage but you get what you pay for. She shoots that 6mm bullet like a laser and I shoot a 175gr MK like a rainbow in my 308. She always wants to fire a couple rounds at semi long range. She really likes not having to crank on the scope like I do. Still good fun.
 
#33
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

A drag racer isnt worried about wearing out a set of slicks, and a boxer isnt worried about wearing out a set of gloves. Those are the tools needed to be successful at those sports. Dont worry about the wear on your barrel,it is a consumable item that you need to be successful at your sport just like the components and hardware of any other sport. Focus your attention on what you need to do to win.
 
#35
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can always get an ABS barrel if that worries you. ABS's don't wear out under intense fire. </div></div>

Please tell me your joking
 
#36
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

On a serious note,ive heard some good things about nitriding a barrel to increase barrel life. Im having a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel nitrided so we'll see how well it works
 
#37
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dimar1492</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can always get an ABS barrel if that worries you. ABS's don't wear out under intense fire. </div></div>

Please tell me your joking </div></div>

Nope, I'm dead serious. Their carbon fiber wicks heat 300% faster, just what you need for rapid fire scenarios.

I've spoken to KK Jense and other builders of rifles with ABS barrels, according to them none of the ABS barrels on the guns they build have burned out yet.

Check out these articles:
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek092.html
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/carbon-fiber-composite-barrels-15349/

From KK's website:
"At the core of the barrels are either Satern 5S, Rock 5R or Krieger barrels that are among the very best available. These barrels have the best of all worlds. <span style="font-weight: bold">They dissipate heat at almost 400% faster than conventional barrels, they weigh almost 2/3 less than the same contour/length steel barrels and they balance almost every gun they're on. In two years of using these barrels, I have yet to see one worn out. You can shoot prairie dogs with a bolt gun all day long without stressing the barrel</span>."

I got ABS/Rocks on 3 of my rifles.
 
#39
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I'm sure hoping so...
grin.gif


I've spoken to Todd Bettin and he says they should last 50% longer at least and heat doesn't kill them easily.

I also read an article where the military was testing ABS barrels and couldn't kill them:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithing/ST_carbonsnext_200901/

"Watching M4 barrels through thermal imaging goggles is just amazing," Degerness said. "<span style="font-weight: bold">On full auto, you see a starburst of heat come off the barrels, and in seconds it's back down to ambient</span>."

This greatly increases barrel life. For crew-served and full-auto weapons, this means higher rates of sustained fire before barrel changes or burnout. <span style="font-weight: bold">Degerness has one customer who uses a wrapped barrel on an M4 to demonstrate a suppressor system. The rifle's barrel, made from a vicious 15-5PH stainless steel, had 46,000 rounds of full-auto, suppressed fire through it before the gas system finally blew up</span>.

For varmint and big-game hunters and competitors, <span style="font-weight: bold">it means barrels that maintain their peak accuracy exponentially longer than steel barrels</span>. Bolt-gun shooters simply cannot fire the rifle fast enough to stress the barrel before it cools. One ABS client did extensive field-testing before deciding to equip its sniper teams with carbon-fiber-wrapped barrels. The client sent out two batches of rifles, all chambered for .300 Win. Mag., with its teams. One set of rifles had Rock 5R stainless-steel, fluted barrels, and the other had Rock 5R barrel liners with a wrap. All barrels had a standard M24 contour. The accuracy standard was 0.6 MOA. <span style="font-weight: bold">Standard barrels were retired because they failed to meet accuracy standards after an average of 1,400 to 1,500 rounds. Composite-wrapped barrels had an average service life of 4,600 rounds and were only replaced then because incredulous armorers were getting nervous</span>."



We've met before at the scope meet (I'm the guy with the "Hubble"). You're welcome to meet me at AMC and check out my ABS beauties yourself. One happens to have the XLR chasis...
 
#40
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I dont see how carbon wrapping a barrel will help throat erosion at all,which is the first thing to go. If your sending a round past the throat at a minimum of every 20 seconds at 60,000 psi with high temps. the throat is going to burn out and I highly doubt wrapping some caron fiber around the outside of the barrel will affect that process at all.
 
#41
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

I won't say that this thread is senseless, but I will say that it's nothing to worry about. Yes, the added heat may cause accelerated wear at the throat; but even if it does, it will likely be a negligible amount. Besides, if you can't use something for its intended purpose, what's the use in having it.

As I said, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm not as lucky as some of the guys here that get to hit ranges of 300 yards and beyond on a regular basis, but I do practice as much as I can at whatever range I can get. I do two types of shooting. The first is load development and the second is practice.

When I practice, I shoot in 20 rounds strings, just to work on my stamina for the matches when I do get to shoot them. I used to get tired really fast. I usually burn up about 150 rounds on each range trip, so I do a good bit of shooting when I go.

I haven't noticed any sort of degradation in perormance over the last 1500 rounds or so.

On another note (I don't know that it will make that much of a difference at 300 yards), but I've had experienced shooters tell me that they shoot as fast as they can while maintaining accuracy. The point being that once they've dialed into a certain wind condition or a favorable wind condition, they want to get as many rounds down range, as they can, before it changes.

BTW, what you're doing sounds like a butt load of fun. I'm really getting tired of all of the pin point accuracy type of shooting. I've been dying to hit some steel, fast.

Another thing to consider that will have an impact on throat erosion is your load. The more powder you burn, the hotter things will get. If 300 yards is all your doing, you don't need to be shooting a hot load for that. For closer stuff (which I seem to be doing a lot of), I like a 168gr bullet moving at around 2600fps. It's easy to get to and a pretty mildly shooting load in my 26" heavy barrel .308.
 
#42
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Well, the graph in the 6mmr link might explain why. By keeping the barrel cooler, the metal stays much harder and is much less susceptible to damage.

The damage usually takes place when the metal of the barrel becomes too hot and thus soft.
 
#45
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Okay,go back to the chart and look at the red line that represents internal chamber temp. I see almost no difference between the steel barrel and the abs until after the 100 second mark which is much longer than the amount of time you have between shots in almost any timed competition. This graph also does not show anything about the hot gasses and flames blasting past the throat at 60,000 psi. I could be wrong but when your taking shots at a minimum of every 20 sec. I doubt that wrapping carbon fiber around the outside of the barrel is going to make the internal surface of the throat any tougher or more resistant to heat and pressure.
 
#46
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Inside 300 yards?
Bring a book to read for the other 6+ minutes.

Unless you are shooting from compromised positions that is...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRP Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There is a match at the local club on Sunday. It will require firing 30-40 rounds in 10 minutes. </div></div>
 
#47
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Look again.

The top graph is for the carbon wrapped barrel (though they mislabeled the black line..should read muzzle internal).

The red line represent chamber internal and it falls to something like 65 C before hitting its inflection point for the carbon. The steel makes its inflection point at 80 C. Thus the ABS falls lower quicker. The steel would take about 600 time units to reach the same temperature the carbon takes to reach in less than 100.

As for the muzzle, the black line starts higher for the steel than it does for the carbon (260 versus ~170). It also falls faster for the carbon than it does for the steel. At about time unit 100, the carbon is at 70 C. It takes the steel 600 to reach the same 70 C.
 
#48
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look again.

The top graph is for the carbon wrapped barrel (though they mislabeled the black line..should read muzzle internal).

The red line represent chamber internal and it falls to something like 65 C before hitting its inflection point for the carbon. The steel makes its inflection point at 80 C. Thus the ABS falls lower quicker. The steel would take about 600 time units to reach the same temperature the carbon takes to reach in less than 100.

As for the muzzle, the black line starts higher for the steel than it does for the carbon (260 versus ~170). It also falls faster for the carbon than it does for the steel. At about time unit 100, the carbon is at 70 C. It takes the steel 600 to reach the same 70 C. </div></div>
Yes, but look at how much time it took for that to take place. About 100 seconds,again much longer than you have between shots.
 
#49
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Well, for a 30 shots in 10 minutes, that gives you 20 seconds per shot. From the graph, the carbon barrel would be at about 110 C while the steel would be at 170/200 C at the 20 second point.

That's a significant delta in temperature, especially if you will be firing another round before inflection point is reached. The steel will build up heat at a much higher rate and the difference between the two can only grow.
 
#50
Re: 30 shots in 10 minutes?

Ya and i have some nice ocean front property in south dakota to sell you. Really if this was as good as sliced bread why is everyone not all over it like flies on shit?
 
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