F T/R Competition 300 yd and 168's twist

[DropinLead]

Hi all, I decided to stick with 300 yard F-T/R shooting when I start next year. I am in the process of getting a new barrel, I plan on shooting 168's. What type of twist do you guys see for this distance and that bullet in terms of practicality and performance.

If you throw out barrel life and what not and just talk about precision, does 1:10 assist or take away in any way over 11.25:1 or does make no difference or stick with 1:12 for example? I imagine you can spin too fast, not sure where that balance point is.

Appreciate the input.

Thanks

 

[40xs]

If you are certain that you will only be using 168 gr. bullets for the life of your barrel, then 1-12 will suffice, but you are limiting yourself for longer bullets in case you find that you want to try something else. A 1-11.25 is good for up to 185gr. lengths, and so forth. You never know, 3 months later someone may introduce you to 1000yd shooting and you will be hindered. Not in having fun, but in competing with other guys with state of the art equipment. that's where it's at. competition is jumping leaps and bounds and is really hard to keep up even with the best gear. When I first started 10 yrs ago the x ring was 10 inches and the 10 ring was 20 inches. shooting a 200 score was uncommon then. Now the winner on the newer 5 inch x and 10inch 10 ring is determined by the number of x's. it's a whole new world of perfect loads and gear and is becoming an elite group sport. Back then I could actually compete with a stock 700 pss. Not so today!!!

 

[thrusty]

To directly answer your question, 1:12" twist for 168gr pills is just right for 300yrd shooting.

However, 40xs gave you a much more thorough response. If you're confident that it's going to be a single purpose rifle, go with it. If not, consider what else you would do with it.... I've got a 1:10" twist that just loves 168gr projectiles and also shoots the heavies great too. IMHO, 1:11.25" is about perfect for everything in a .308...I've even seen it handle the 155grs nicely.

 

[Denys]

It's usually better to use just enough twist to spin the heaviest bullet you want to shoot. A 1:12 twist will be fine for anything up to about 185 grain bullets, except perhaps the long VLD or Hybrid designs. A 1:11 twist will be fine for up to 200+ grain bullets. A 1:10 is really for the 215+ bullets.

I use a 1:11 twist for my very long 180gr JLKLBT.

 

[DropinLead]

Great responses thanks. I can see maybe doing 600 yard as well and maybe 175's but they are harder to find than 168's. I only shoot commercial stuff, typically Hirnady or FGMM. Once I get beyond that I would build something specific for this type of shooting as opposed to my rabarreled and tuned "tactical" rifle.

It's usually better to use just enough twist to spin the heaviest bullet you want to shoot." That is a GREAT point. Finding that for 168's is the heart of the question. Seems my options are 1:11.25 or 1:12.

If it were you guys, personally you, would you guys go with 1:11.25 or 1:12 then?

 

[Denys]

1:11 or 1:12 would be just fine. If you insist on 1:11.25, that's ok too. One of my F-TR rifles has that twist; it's not better or worse than 1:11.

I prefer 1:11(.25) for a .308, as I think that's the optimum twist for that cartridge; it will handle anything I care to shoot: all the way to 210s and it's not too crazy fast.

 

[DropinLead]

Ok great thanks for that.

The Bartlian barrels I am looking at seem to be in 1:11.25 or 1:10 right now is why I asked. I can't even find those in 1:12. Even 1:10 in my length it hard to find so it it buys me nothing I will skip it all together. Bartlian 1:11.25 is avaialble everywhere.

Regards

 

[Denys]

Bartlein makes a fine barrel. I would not hesitate to get the 1:11.25 if I needed one now and it was available.

However, that said, I will soon be ordering a new barrel for my rifle and it will be a 1:11 Krieger. I do not mind waiting 11 months for it.

 

[Denys]

I ordered it yesterday; lead time is now 12 months. It's a 1:11 twist.

 

[DropinLead]

What length are you going with.

I was going to do 1:11.25 in 26" length m24 type heavy barrel with no brake device since it is a "tactical" style rifle with attached folding bipod and hand manipulated rear bag. I will use mainly for target with 168's. Pretty sure that will get to 1000 with 168 if I get a wild hair. Pretty sure I can meet the rules with that weight wise.

 

[Denys]

I went with 34 inch finished length with a medium heavy Palma contour.

 

[DropinLead]

Dang that is long, I assume your shooting 155's then?

Btw, did our check Bruno's? I was there the other day and they had hundreds of Krieger barrels in stock on the show rom floor.

 

[Denys]

No. I shoot 180 JLKLBT. By the way, the 168 SMK will be coming in sideways at 1000 yards.

 

[DropinLead]

Mind you I ask as I do not know. I lack understanding. The forum is FULL of folks swearing 20 or 22" barrels with great accuracy and how anything over 18 does nothing but make the 308 less optimal somehow. Even at 1000 yds.

I never really got that since competition uses longer barrels. What does the longer barrel get you with the 308 in competition? It can't be weight alone cause you can tip 18#with a 26" bull barrel. 175's will get to 1000 with 24". Does the longer barrel impart additional stability or accuracy or just velocity which reduces drop or something similar making it more consistent?

 

[Denys]

For your stated goal of 300 yard F-TR barrel length is not critical, but I would shy away from 18 inches and 20 inches; 24 is ok.

I realize that lots of folks at Sniper's Hide swear that 18 inches is all you need to get to 1000 yards, because they shoot sub-MOA at that distance all day long as long as they do their part. However, in the real world of competition, where each shot is recorded and there are no gimmes or Mulligans, as much real accuracy as possible is "a good thing."

Long range accuracy is a function of the weakest of these three factors; the inherent precision or the rifle/ammo combo, marksmanship skills and conditions reading.

Longer barrels will produce greater velocity which helps mitigate shortcomings in only one of those factors, to wit conditions reading. It will do nothing for lack in marksmanship skills or inherent precision. However, that said, you can work to increase the precision and you can work on your skills in holding a rifle on target and pulling the trigger without affecting the aim. Once you have those factors under control the one that is always elusive event for the most accomplished of shooter is conditions reading. The longer the bullet flies, the more it can and will be affected by the conditions and as the distance increases these conditions will vary. So cutting down on the transit time from muzzle to paper is definitely a "good thing."

You also want to avoid having your bullets come close to going transonic before getting to the target; your bullet is taking longer to get there and the sonic boundary area brings on unwanted turbulence. So you want your bullet to be as high in the Mach number as possible.

My current 32 inch barrel pushes my 180gr JLK out the muzzle at about 2850 FPS, and that's with a load just under maximum, which is good for brass life. According to the Hodgdon website, a 24 inch barrel will produce about 2600 and some FPS. My guess is that an 18 inch barrel will produce something around 2500FPS. Spend some time at JBM and play with those numbers and you can see the reduction in wind-induced deflection the higher velocity brings to the game. If you misread the wind by even just a couple MPH, you can get blown into the 8 ring or worse instead of a 9. No Mulligans here, this is competition.


Also, it is my belief that it is easier to tune a load for a long barrel as opposed to a short barrel; there are longer accuracy nodes and that helps a lot.

In a top notch barrel, I will trade contour for length, within reason, of course.

 

[diego-ted]

For your stated goal of 300 yard F-TR barrel length is not critical, but I would shy away from 18 inches and 20 inches; 24 is ok.

I realize that lots of folks at Sniper's Hide swear that 18 inches is all you need to get to 1000 yards, because they shoot sub-MOA at that distance all day long as long as they do their part. However, in the real world of competition, where each shot is recorded and there are no gimmes or Mulligans, as much real accuracy as possible is "a good thing."

Long range accuracy is a function of the weakest of these three factors; the inherent precision or the rifle/ammo combo, marksmanship skills and conditions reading.

Longer barrels will produce greater velocity which helps mitigate shortcomings in only one of those factors, to wit conditions reading. It will do nothing for lack in marksmanship skills or inherent precision. However, that said, you can work to increase the precision and you can work on your skills in holding a rifle on target and pulling the trigger without affecting the aim. Once you have those factors under control the one that is always elusive event for the most accomplished of shooter is conditions reading. The longer the bullet flies, the more it can and will be affected by the conditions and as the distance increases these conditions will vary. So cutting down on the transit time from muzzle to paper is definitely a "good thing."

You also want to avoid having your bullets come close to going transonic before getting to the target; your bullet is taking longer to get there and the sonic boundary area brings on unwanted turbulence. So you want your bullet to be as high in the Mach number as possible.

My current 32 inch barrel pushes my 180gr JLK out the muzzle at about 2850 FPS, and that's with a load just under maximum, which is good for brass life. According to the Hodgdon website, a 24 inch barrel will produce about 2600 and some FPS. My guess is that an 18 inch barrel will produce something around 2500FPS. Spend some time at JBM and play with those numbers and you can see the reduction in wind-induced deflection the higher velocity brings to the game. If you misread the wind by even just a couple MPH, you can get blown into the 8 ring or worse instead of a 9. No Mulligans here, this is competition.


Also, it is my belief that it is easier to tune a load for a long barrel as opposed to a short barrel; there are longer accuracy nodes and that helps a lot.

In a top notch barrel, I will trade contour for length, within reason, of course.

Very well put, ALL DAY LONG!

Diego

 

[40xs]

Dropinlead, you have to decide what it is you want out of your gun! I suggest you attend a couple of long range matches for a reality check. You will come away with all your questions answered and much more than you have received from your post. You will find out which loads work, which barrel lengths are better, and which bullets make it to the target and which ones start wobbling before they get there. If you are like everyone else, you will probably start shopping for new gear. Jump in," the water is fine". Good luck, and listen to the guys on the line. They speak pretty much the same language.

 

[DropinLead]

Yep makes sense. Great advise and tips for all. Building a dedicated f class gun is pretty clear cut. Problem is I don't want that really. Looking to balance what I read in the rather sections with folks who do it for competition.

The clarification on barrel length really helps cause this forum is filled with guys hitting 1/4 groups at 1000 just like you said. Your explanation really helped me reconcile all that noise.

Thus, am sticking with my tactical style S&B scoped McMillan a4 stock rig with winchester pre 64 action. Time for a new barrel so I will go to a 26 in barrel with 11.25 twist and a wide stance bipod to replace that harris I don't care for. Will thread it with cap so I can screw on brake or can when not doing competition. I will focus on 300 yd competition and lots of desert shooting at 500-800. I had mr target make me a custom 2/3 silhouette with 1.5'", 3" and 5" holes like a snowman's buttons with orange flap paddles behind them to visually register hits.

I have close to 3000 rnds of 168 fgmm and hornady to blow through. Shot almost 4k since feb. No time to reload. I will use commercial match ammo, 300 yards TR class, using rebarreld tactical type rifle and results will be what they are. Most it will be up to me, understood.

Thanks for the help and candor. Just looking to hear what those with long barrels have to say. Read to death opposite opinions. It is crystal clear in my mind thanks to you all.

 

[Denys]

Yep makes sense. Great advise and tips for all. Building a dedicated f class gun is pretty clear cut. Problem is I don't want that really. Looking to balance what I read in the rather sections with folks who do it for competition.

The clarification on barrel length really helps cause this forum is filled with guys hitting 1/4 groups at 1000 just like you said. Your explanation really helped me reconcile all that noise.

Let me tell you a story about that. Before I start, I will say that I have read (and chuckled at) countless claims and posts about someone being able to shoot sub-MOA at 1000 yards with any .308 rifle; I especially guffaw when it's an 18-24 inch rifle shooting factory or military ammo. I do remember a few years back posting here that I had never shot sub-MOA at 1000 yards, and some of the braggards offered to teach me how to do that with their "hammers of Thor" and other assorted tactical sticks shooting surplus ammo. At that point, I knew it was a waste of time discussing it further.

Setting your expectations ahead of time is a good thing. Your Tactical/F-TR boom-stick will be fine to play at 300 and maybe even up to 600, though do not expect to be very competitive when the wind blows. As for 1000 yards, don't even go there with that FGMM ammo.

Now for the story.

Talking about shooting sub-MOA at 1000 yards, to an F-class competitor, that represents a clean; all 10s and Xs since the 10-ring is 10 inches across or right about 1 MOA. At the recently-concluded Nationals, with some of the best shooters in the World, using rifles and ammo that far exceed the precision and muzzle velocity of any tactical rifle with FGMM or M118-LR, there were only five cleans when shooting 15 rounds and one clean on the Thursday shooting 20 rounds. There were about 200 shooters, shooting six 15-round matches and two 20-round matches for that week, all at 1000 yards. I do not believe there was a single clean at 1000 yards during the Worlds championship that followed the Nationals.

The 20-shot clean occurred on Thursday morning at the same time I actually shot a personal best of 199-7, dropping a single point. This was interesting because I took my customary 5 sighters from a clean barrel with sighter 4 being a 10 and sighter 5 an X. Then I went for record and thankfully shot a 10. When I got to round 16 for record, my shooting hand was shaking so bad, I fumbled with the cartridge, but managed to get it in the chamber. I dropped that shot as it went into the 9-ring just outside the 10 at 9 o'clock. I almost called a challenge and then remembered they were only 3000 feet closer to the target and it might take too much time, losing me the conditions that I had been riding, and possibly even getting me out of position. So I just kept on trucking and now with a point down, I was much calmer and didn't drop another one. I came in seventh for that match as four other guys and one gal shot 199s with a higher X-count than mine.

I almost shot sub-MOA at 1000 yards that morning; 17 consecutive shots in the 10- and X- ring (including the last two sighters.) And this is with a 42X scope, 32 inch medium-heavy Palma Krieger barrel, Sinclair Gen 3 bipod, a one point five ounce trigger and shooting bullets that are far superior to 168 or 175 SMKs in a load specifically tailored for the rifle. If it had been a 15 round match, that would have been a clean (sub-MOA), but it was a 20-round match so I'm still in search of that elusive sub-MOA at 1000 yards with a .308.


I still laugh at claims of sub-MOA shooting at 1000 yards with a .308.

 

[gstaylorg]

Here's one to consider: a Bartlein 26" 11.25 twist 5R .299/.308 SS barrel. Pretty much the standard barrel used by GA Precision (except for the length). It will shoot most of what you might choose very well and the weight should be perfect in the length you're looking at. In addition, if you ever decide to stretch things out, it will handle 175s (or longer) just fine and will easily get you out to 1000 yd.

Grizzly.com

FWIW - for barrel lengths between 16" and about 26", you will gain about 20-25 fps MV per inch of barrel length. Over 26" or so, the gain in MV starts to drop off a bit to where you might get 10 fps per inch of barrel length. Generally, going from a 22" barrel to 26" will gain you more velocity than going from 26" to 30". The barrel listed above would likely put you in the neighborhood of 2725-2750 fps for FGMM 175s, which is enough to reach 1000 yd. Not ideal, but it will definitely get you there. The 168s will of course be a bit faster. Ideally, if you find you really want to go farther into F-Class shooting, you'll end up reloading with a higher BC bullet and a bit more velocity than you can get from factory match ammo.

The reason I mention this is that although you indicated you might limit yourself to 300 yd matches for the time being, in reality that almost never happens. Once you get bitten by the F-Class shooting bug, I suspect you're going to want to shoot more matches and longer distances. The barrel listed above (or similar) will allow you to do that with no problem. Sure, a 30"(+) barrel will give you more velocity and improve ballistics at 1000 yd, but the 26" will do. I shot a GAP Hospitaller with a 24" barrel having identical specs to the one listed above (except length) for my first season shooting F-T/R at 1000 yd. The rifle performed much better than I did (LOL), so the barrel you're interested in definitely will give you room to grow into the sport if you get hooked like a lot of folks do after their first match.

As far as the bipod, I used an Atlas V8 for the first couple years and did quite well with at the local level. Because of that, I still prefer to load the bipod as opposed to using a ski-type bipod that isn't pre-loaded. Most, if not all, of the top shooters in F-TR have switched to the ski-type bipod (Duplin, Sinclair, Centershot, etc.). I have such a setup, but am still working with it and am not totally comfortable shooting that style as yet. In any event, if you want a more traditional (pre-loaded) bipod, I would consider the Long Range Accuracy bipod:

Long Range Accuracy F-Class Bipod on sale! - EuroOptic.com

Compared to an Atlas or Harris, these things have an enormously wide footprint and improve stability dramatically. They're not cheap, but worth it IMO if you like a traditional style bipod. The wide stance is much more similar to the ski-type bipods and definitely helps stabilize your shooting platform. Best of luck with everything, I'm sure you''l enjoy it a lot.

 

[damoncali]

The clarification on barrel length really helps cause this forum is filled with guys hitting 1/4 groups at 1000 just like you said. Your explanation really helped me reconcile all that noise.

Listen to Denys. He is spot on. To provide further armor against the nonsense of board denizens, go checkout the super shoot results on the NBRSA website. That is the grand-daddy world cup of benchrest shooting. The best (benchrest) shooters with the most expensive rifles shooting off rests that cost more than most rifles in a field so think with wind flags that it looks like a disneyland flower garden. Conditions could not be better.

Pay close attention to the percentage who shoot under .250 MOA in aggregate. It's small. And it should be - it's hard! a 1mph wind shift will open a group by about half that. Now reconcile that with guarantees of .250 MOA from custom .308 tactical rifles.

The truth is that a typical well built custom rifle will shoot in the neighborhood of .5 MOA consistently (that is, you can in theory shoot a 200-20x on an F class target). To go below that consistently you are venturing into benchrest territory and as you'll see from the results, it gets real hard real fast below .5 MOA.

Aim for a true 1/2 MOA rifle and you will have all you need to compete with the best in F class. The rest is up to you.

 

[XTR]

Since F class went to the current target in 2006 I believe there have been two 20 shot cleans at 1000 yards, both in the last yr. (Phil Kelly and Mid Tompkins) Claims of 1MOA all day long as long as I do my part, yea right.

For your stated purpose shooting at 300 yards, the difference in windage with a 168SMK at 2700 vs the same bullet at 2850 is less than a bullet diameter per MPH according to JBM. If that's all you are going to shoot build whatever you want to build.

However, if you plan to try to shoot long distances, first get rid of the 168s, and then get more barrel.

 

[Denys]

Clint Cooper is the one who shot a 200-7 at the FCNC.

 

[DropinLead]

Wow tis is really usefull formation.

I have NO doubt I will want to shoot more and farther necessitating a dedicated f class rifle. If I did that out the gate what is there to look forward to. I enjoy doing things 2 or 3 times and learning.

You all have really set my expectations in line, no doubt. Honest, insightful and helpful feedback.
I appreciate taking the time to do it.

And I will check into the LRA style bipod.
I have been grooving on this Irish model. http://308precision.com

 

[Denys]

That's one heavy bipod; 32 ounces is 2 pounds. That's a few ounces heavier than the Sinclair Gen3 and a lot more ounces than the current crop of hi-tech bipods. Add to that the fact is a pedestal-type bipod, I won't even consider it, especially at $400+.

 

[DropinLead]

Seemed similar to the phoenix, or rempel or centershot. The pedestal thing always seemed dubious, in my mind you want the arms high and lower the chasis like the sinclair gen3.

I may just fab up one like the long range accuracy one. Pretty simple to make.

 

[XTR]

Denys, I forgot Clint's, actually I didn't forget it, I thought it was a 150. I forgot that he got a 200, I'm pretty sure Mid's at Perry has more Xs and is the current record, (and since Mid shot it it will probably get updated)

 

[Denys]

Seemed similar to the phoenix, or rempel or centershot. The pedestal thing always seemed dubious, in my mind you want the arms high and lower the chasis like the sinclair gen3.

I may just fab up one like the long range accuracy one. Pretty simple to make.

Yeah, I usually classify a bipod as either a cradle type or a pedestal type. I'm partial to the cradle type because I believe they torque and transmit the recoil impulse less than the pedestal type. However, that said, the ones with the very wide stance do go a long way to minimize the recoil effect.

Bipods may be simple to make but they are a trade-off between weight and rigidity hence the use of exotic material recently, such as carbon fiber and other stuff. I'm waiting for a titanium bipod.

 

[Denys]

Denys, I forgot Clint's, actually I didn't forget it, I thought it was a 150. I forgot that he got a 200, I'm pretty sure Mid's at Perry has more Xs and is the current record, (and since Mid shot it it will probably get updated)

Wade, I'm sure you're correct about Mid's record having a higher X-count. And when Clint shot his 200-7, Mid shot a 199-9. In fact, my friend, Jonathan Laitre, from my hometown, shot a 199-12 at that time also, and Steve Siracusa shot a 199-11. All these great shooters would trade a bunch of Xs for another 10. Me, I was just happy to be on paper.

 

[Frank Green]

I shoot mostly 1-11 or 1-11.25 and also have a 1-12 twist on my .30cal. guns. A 1-12 twist will handle up to conventional 190gr. bullets even at .308win. velocities. You won't find any real accuracy difference between the twists listed. No need to go to a 1-10 unless you intend on trying to shoot bullets in the 200-215 range.

The thing with a faster twist is that any run out your ammo has or if you shoot poor quality bullet the faster twist will amplify the run out and can cause accuracy problems but again if the ammo is of good quality etc...even a 1-10 twist will shoot excellent. The 1-10 though will not give you anything extra.......

Why just 168's? Look at the 155's as well. They're bc is just as high or higher in some cases then some of the 168's out there. You can run them at a higher velocity so they will get to your target quicker (less flight time) and cut the wind as good or a tad better. If you want to go heavier than the 168's then I just go to 175's most of the time. Even the 185's.

Unless your a really good shooter I wouldn't go over a 30" finish length barrel. The barrels longer than 30" the bullet is in the bore for a longer period of time......if your follow thru isn't that good you can start pushing your shots and wrecking your groups.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Tactical]

I am the current Vice Captain of US F TR Team. We ran 1x12 twist Krieger barrel at 30" length for the Nationals and World Championships. The Team bullet was a 185 Berger. We used the same chamber and bullet as Mid did for his record. Mid was our main wind coach, so I think a 12 twist will do fine with most bullets at 1000 yards

Now heavier than 185 and I want faster than 12 twist and at 1000 yards with 155 Scenars I have had better luck with a 1x11.25 twist but that could be several issue not just twist.

My twist for the ultra heavies is 1x10" and Clint built that rifle. It also has the team chamber which allows the 220 Scenars to run 2600 fps and 185s over 2800 fps

 

[Denys]

Unless your a really good shooter I wouldn't go over a 30" finish length barrel. The barrels longer than 30" the bullet is in the bore for a longer period of time......if your follow thru isn't that good you can start pushing your shots and wrecking your groups.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Well, I don't want to be contrarian, but by the time my bullet gets to 30 inches, it's going about 33,300 inches per second. The extra two inches of barrel represent about .00006 second and the next two will be even less time. I think I can hold the rifle steady an extra .00011 second to get the added 60+ FPS.

 

[Tactical]

One thing after reading my post. There are many great barrels on the market. I use Mike Rock. Obermeyer, Krieger and Barfletlein. My 2009 World Championship rifle had a 1x13 Bartlein that was smithed by Al Warrner. That rifle won a Gold and two Silver Medals and will still outshoot anyone on the planet. I wish I could shoot close to the rifles potential. The idea of sub moa at a grand is limited by shooter and environment not the rifle or ammo. Its takes so little change to f up a group at a 1000 yards.

Deny its not just the shooter but longer tube in short starts to act like skinny tube with more barrel whip. I stick around 30" and even like 28 for shorter ranges

 

[DropinLead]

I shoot mostly 1-11 or 1-11.25 and also have a 1-12 twist on my .30cal. guns. A 1-12 twist will handle up to conventional 190gr. bullets even at .308win. velocities. You won't find any real accuracy difference between the twists listed. No need to go to a 1-10 unless you intend on trying to shoot bullets in the 200-215 range.

The thing with a faster twist is that any run out your ammo has or if you shoot poor quality bullet the faster twist will amplify the run out and can cause accuracy problems but again if the ammo is of good quality etc...even a 1-10 twist will shoot excellent. The 1-10 though will not give you anything extra.......

Why just 168's? Look at the 155's as well. They're bc is just as high or higher in some cases then some of the 168's out there. You can run them at a higher velocity so they will get to your target quicker (less flight time) and cut the wind as good or a tad better. If you want to go heavier than the 168's then I just go to 175's most of the time. Even the 185's.

Unless your a really good shooter I wouldn't go over a 30" finish length barrel. The barrels longer than 30" the bullet is in the bore for a longer period of time......if your follow thru isn't that good you can start pushing your shots and wrecking your groups.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Hi Frank I am using your 26". Actually 168's because I have over 3000 if them still and they are easy to find. FGMM 168 is available at a rate of about 8 to 1 over FGMM 175's at my location. I'd hoot all 175's or AMAX 178's if I could actually get them. Alas Wallmart even carries the FGMM 168's. I don't reload not time for that actually. That may change, but for now, unless I can but them match grade by the box as commercial ammo I will have to skip the 155's. I thought the 155's wanted a longer barrel? Like the Palma guys use. No? They work out of a "shorter" 26 in barrel as well?

Thanks for input, follow through is a great point regarding longer barrel. I have work to do regarding a 24" barrel still.

Somedays I will shoot 20 rounds and print it in .75" area inside a 1.5" Xring at 200. The next day it will print a 2" pattern. Can't figure out what I am not doing.

Follow through and rear bag use(it is inconsistent) are the culprits I am tackling closely tomorrow. Picking that up in this specific forum. Actually many of the same folks contributing here have had some really sage advice on that topic in other posts.

Spending time browsing this particular forum I picked up more tid bits about technique and shed light on my own flaws. Really good stuff out here!

 

[Tactical]

The 168s will work fine for 300 yrds

You will see no disadvantage to your 24" barrel at that distance either

 

[DropinLead]

I shoot mostly 1-11 or 1-11.25 and also have a 1-12 twist on my .30cal. guns. A 1-12 twist will handle up to conventional 190gr. bullets even at .308win. velocities. You won't find any real accuracy difference between the twists listed. No need to go to a 1-10 unless you intend on trying to shoot bullets in the 200-215 range.

The thing with a faster twist is that any run out your ammo has or if you shoot poor quality bullet the faster twist will amplify the run out and can cause accuracy problems but again if the ammo is of good quality etc...even a 1-10 twist will shoot excellent. The 1-10 though will not give you anything extra.......

Why just 168's? Look at the 155's as well. They're bc is just as high or higher in some cases then some of the 168's out there. You can run them at a higher velocity so they will get to your target quicker (less flight time) and cut the wind as good or a tad better. If you want to go heavier than the 168's then I just go to 175's most of the time. Even the 185's.

Unless your a really good shooter I wouldn't go over a 30" finish length barrel. The barrels longer than 30" the bullet is in the bore for a longer period of time......if your follow thru isn't that good you can start pushing your shots and wrecking your groups.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Hi Frank I will be using your 26" when OCR build it out in December. Actually 168's because I have over 3000 if them still and they are easy to find. FGMM 168 is available at a rate of about 8 to 1 over FGMM 175's at my location. I'd hoot all 175's or AMAX 178's if I could actually get them. Alas Wallmart even carries the FGMM 168's. I don't reload not time for that actually. That may change, but for now, unless I can but them match grade by the box as commercial ammo I will have to skip the 155's.
Thanks for input, follow through is a GREAT point regarding longer barrel. I have work to do regarding a 24" barrel still.

 

[DropinLead]

I shoot mostly 1-11 or 1-11.25 and also have a 1-12 twist on my .30cal. guns. A 1-12 twist will handle up to conventional 190gr. bullets even at .308win. velocities. You won't find any real accuracy difference between the twists listed. No need to go to a 1-10 unless you intend on trying to shoot bullets in the 200-215 range.

The thing with a faster twist is that any run out your ammo has or if you shoot poor quality bullet the faster twist will amplify the run out and can cause accuracy problems but again if the ammo is of good quality etc...even a 1-10 twist will shoot excellent. The 1-10 though will not give you anything extra.......

Why just 168's? Look at the 155's as well. They're bc is just as high or higher in some cases then some of the 168's out there. You can run them at a higher velocity so they will get to your target quicker (less flight time) and cut the wind as good or a tad better. If you want to go heavier than the 168's then I just go to 175's most of the time. Even the 185's.

Unless your a really good shooter I wouldn't go over a 30" finish length barrel. The barrels longer than 30" the bullet is in the bore for a longer period of time......if your follow thru isn't that good you can start pushing your shots and wrecking your groups.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Hi Frank I am using your 26". Actually 168's because I have over 3000 if them still and they are easy to find. FGMM 168 is available at a rate of about 8 to 1 over FGMM 175's at my location. I'd hoot all 175's or AMAX 178's if I could actually get them. Alas Wallmart even carries the FGMM 168's. I don't reload not time for that actually. That may change, but for now, unless I can but them match grade by the box as commercial ammo I will have to skip the 155's.
Thanks for input, follow through is a GREAT point regarding longer barrel. I have work to do regarding a 24" barrel still.

 

[Frank Green]

Well, I don't want to be contrarian, but by the time my bullet gets to 30 inches, it's going about 33,300 inches per second. The extra two inches of barrel represent about .00006 second and the next two will be even less time. I think I can hold the rifle steady an extra .00011 second to get the added 60+ FPS.

If you can hold it that's great. Like I said though the average guy cannot. For the average guy it means not losing points.

Even some guys don't have a good follow thru with shorter barrel lengths and blow the groups.

Also take a look at small bore shooters. Guys who are serious about it and if they are just shooting scoped rifle are only running a 18"-21" long barrel and they've noticed they're scores pick up. If they are running iron sights they will run a bloop tube to get the longer sight radius.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[XTR]

Frank, it's my understanding that with a 22LR you hit max MV somewhere in the 12" to 14" range. (that is my understanding, not something I've proven) In any case, small bore shooters are all shooting subsonic target loads so longer barrels are just for sight radius. Not trying to take away from your premise that longer is not necessarily better, just that small bore may not be the best comparison.

 

[Denys]

I believe that beyond 18-20 inches, the bullet actually slows down in a .22LR so there is no ballistic reason to have a longer tube.

As for a .308 I believe it takes several more feet of barrel before you see the bullet slowing down in the barrel. I hear what Frank is saying and I am not disagreeing, but I do not believe that an extra .1 millisecond of barrel time will affect a group but the added 60FPS or so of MV is a good thing to have. One can elect to reduce a load and get the same MV as in a 30 inch barrel but with less powder burning or keep the same load and get the extra velocity.

My final thought is that if indeed an additional .1 millisecond of barrel time does affect the group size for a shooter, he or she has greater challenges to overcome and may want to take up golf.

 

[chefcam864]

I remember the 1st time I shot at 1k... It was this past April, at Butner, and all I can say is that it is HARD. 99.9% of the blowhards on this board, and others, that claim to shoot .25-.5moa @ 1k all day ARE SIMPLY LYING! They would be world champions if they could really do that. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of accuracy claims on these boards are lies. How many .25moa box stock Savages and Remys have any of you seen? I know I have seen exactly zero, but I see the claims on here weekly. I like to think most of it is just ignorance, or stating the best 3 round group a rifle has ever fired at 100 yards and saying that's what one's rifle shoots. I will admit to calling my .75 moa rifle a .5moa rifle at one point because I didn't know better. I now know to look at my notes and take an average of group sizes and scores.

I don't think barrel time is what's at play in shorter barrels. I think the main advantage of a shorter barrel is their added stiffness. A shorter tube will not whip as much as a longer tube. This is why short range BR guys prefer a very heavy 20" bbl. If there was a way to get the same velocity from a shorter tube I promise you every LR guy would immediately make the switch. Like most things in life, there is a compromise to be made when deciding on bbl length. It's all in what is needed and expected from the rifle.

 

[XTR]

As for a .308 I believe it takes several more feet of barrel before you see the bullet slowing down in the barrel.

Maybe it is barrel differences, but with 44.5 gr Varget, WW brass, 185Bergers running identical loads, in identical chambers cut with the same PTG 2013 FTR reamer my 30" Kreiger barrel was 40FPS faster than my 34" Kreiger.

I cut my 34 back to 32. I have not run them side by side since that test because because my 30 is now throated for 215s. You may not need to get as long as you think you do before a 308 starts slowing down.

Running slower powders you may recover that lost MV, but I decided that the extra length wasn't worth the extra weight.

 

[Denys]

I remember the 1st time I shot at 1k... It was this past April, at Butner, and all I can say is that it is HARD. 99.9% of the blowhards on this board, and others, that claim to shoot .25-.5moa @ 1k all day ARE SIMPLY LYING! They would be world champions if they could really do that. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of accuracy claims on these boards are lies. How many .25moa box stock Savages and Remys have any of you seen? I know I have seen exactly zero, but I see the claims on here weekly. I like to think most of it is just ignorance, or stating the best 3 round group a rifle has ever fired at 100 yards and saying that's what one's rifle shoots. I will admit to calling my .75 moa rifle a .5moa rifle at one point because I didn't know better. I now know to look at my notes and take an average of group sizes and scores.

I would not be too hard on people who make what we know to be outlandish claims. We know these are optimistic claims, but it doesn't really hurt anything or anyone. I remember once last year or the year before, when during a 1000 yard match, I actually shot 6 or 7 (can't remember for sure, so let's say 6) Xs in a row. That would make my .308 rifle a half-MOA shooter at 1000 yards, all day long, as long as I do my part. Well not really, it was just one of those things. I'm struggling to be a consistent <2MOA shooter at 1000 yards; some days, I will escape with nothing worse than nines, but other days, I will throw an 8 or worse. During the FCNC, I threw my first 8 for record on the last match of the last day. I was so pleased I threw a 7 and another couple 8s. I escaped with a 183-1 and wanted to cry until I heard the scores from other people on the relay and that was after a 199-7 that morning; completely different conditions 4 hours later. I didn't do "my part."

 

[Denys]

Maybe it is barrel differences, but with 44.5 gr Varget, WW brass, 185Bergers running identical loads, in identical chambers cut with the same PTG 2013 FTR reamer my 30" Kreiger barrel was 40FPS faster than my 34" Kreiger.

I cut my 34 back to 32. I have not run them side by side since that test because because my 30 is now throated for 215s. You may not need to get as long as you think you do before a 308 starts slowing down.

Running slower powders you may recover that lost MV, but I decided that the extra length wasn't worth the extra weight.

Good data points.

The nice thing about long barrels is you can cut them back. It's easier than adding length.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Hi all, I decided to stick with 300 yard F-T/R shooting when I start next year. I am in the process of getting a new barrel, I plan on shooting 168's. What type of twist do you guys see for this distance and that bullet in terms of practicality and performance.

Well, I keep coming back to this original post. I shoot something very much like F Open at 250yd with a .30BR, so I'm a bit vexed about how we got to long barrels and fast twists.

I don't think a heavy bullet, a long barrel, a fast twist, or even a boat tail is needed, and you could probably get away with downloading the huge-for-300yd .308 case, too.

I would suggest a 22" straight barrel, a 1:12" twist at most, and a 1:14"/1:15" if possible. For a bullet, I'd suggest a 125gr SPFB Spitzer Sierra Pro-Hunter, and a modest charge of a faster powder. For my .30BR, that's the bullet and barrel length I'm using for 250yd and it works fine with 33gr of IMR-4198. The twist is 1:10" so that's not a big issue either, apparently. In my neck 'o the woods, this bullet is very available. The new 125SMK has a similar Flat Base profile, and I suppose the newer 135SMK could be a contender for maybe even out to 600yd, too; but I don't get to see a lot of .308 SMK's on the shelves these days.

Really, guys, for a dedicated short range barrel, what I'm seeing posted above is probably overkill.

When you want to go long, get another barrel. Meantime, I thought we were talking about practical for a 300yd application.

Answering the original question, for the 168's, a 1:12" twist would seem practical to me.

Greg

 

[Denys]

Hey, elder fart, you're not paying attention: This passage might shed some light on the deviation into longer barrels and will underline why your recommendation is not suitable.

The clarification on barrel length really helps cause this forum is filled with guys hitting 1/4 groups at 1000 just like you said. Your explanation really helped me reconcile all that noise.

Thus, am sticking with my tactical style S&B scoped McMillan a4 stock rig with winchester pre 64 action. Time for a new barrel so I will go to a 26 in barrel with 11.25 twist and a wide stance bipod to replace that harris I don't care for. Will thread it with cap so I can screw on brake or can when not doing competition. I will focus on 300 yd competition and lots of desert shooting at 500-800. I had mr target make me a custom 2/3 silhouette with 1.5'", 3" and 5" holes like a snowman's buttons with orange flap paddles behind them to visually register hits.

I have close to 3000 rnds of 168 fgmm and hornady to blow through. Shot almost 4k since feb. No time to reload. I will use commercial match ammo, 300 yards TR class, using rebarreld tactical type rifle and results will be what they are. Most it will be up to me, understood.

Thanks for the help and candor. Just looking to hear what those with long barrels have to say. Read to death opposite opinions. It is crystal clear in my mind thanks to you all.

 

[DropinLead]

Great thanks all.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Denys;

Thx for the clarification; you were right on. I had 'skipped to the chase'.

Meanwhile, I also felt the experience I have gleaned from the last 2-3years doing shorter range F Class might be of some value here. Previously, I had been doing it with the .260 (which is even less well suited than the .308 for the SR regime), and then the .223 (which is still an excellent choice for the regime). What I wanted was an SR-friendly (not a gaping abyss that swallows lotsa powder) .30cal (bigger holes cut more lines...) with a .473" bolt face diameter. The .30BR seems to be very well suited to score shooting in the SR regime, so I gave it a shot (not a pun...).

When I did my learning curve, a few positive trends shook out, and my post reflects what I feel is worth sharing. Basically, I figured the benefit of this could probably be applied to the .308, if one was willing to accept that the load density percentages would be rather low. Having worked with fractional loads in the past, I thought there could be a fair-to-middlin' chance for the concept.

Greg

 

[Denys]

Greg, if it were not for the specific requirements of .223 or .308 in F-TR, I would probably have chosen a .30BR a long time ago and for all the reasons you stated above. However, since F-TR IS .223 or .308 and I have absolutely no desire to get into the armaments race called F-Open, I will continue with .223 at 300 and .308 at 600-1000yds.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm not advocating shooting the .30BR, or entering the F Open arena, but rather loading the .308 to specs that resemble the .30BR's loads. Obviously the .223 is the ideal F T/R chambering for the 300yd regime. My post addresses the OP's decision to shoot that distance with the .308, and suggests a strategy that treats the .308 in some ways that resemble the .30BR's performance. While maybe not ideal, it could have some hope of success anyway.

In the past, I had considered the .22-250 for competitive shooting; but experience showed that barrel heating was too excessive in that chambering. However, when the case was loaded to specs that were more similar to .223 loads, the issues resolved more favorably, or at least more favorably than having to rebarrel completely to the .223 chambering.

I'm just blue-sky-ing a similar approach for the .308.

Greg