308 vs. 6.5 Creed in 16 inch lightweight bolt gun for mountain trekking
- Thread starter Nivium
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I’m shooting 155 scenars easily out of my 18” .308 TRG @2860 fps (1930 fps@600yds). Either round will work, I like the .308 especially hunting inside of 600 yds.
I might be of the opposite thought. I had a 18” 6.5x47. Ran the hell out of it for a minute. Got 2830 with 123gr eld m and 2700 with 130gr eld m. It worked. However i ended up selling cause i built a dedicated hunting rifle that was similar wait albeit longer oal that weighed the same. I then sort of got an itch for 308 got into cloning and went back to the XM3. My brother also has a 20” 308. For 600 and in it’s pretty hard to beat the 308 less I’m just outdated on the 6.5cm recipes. My estimated load for the 168gr tmk compared to both my loads in the 18” 6.5x47 had the 308 holding less wind than my 6.5x47. Granted stretch it out a little more as the velo drops the BC starts to take over but the 308 does really well in short packages IMHO. Bullets have also come a long way from the 155gr scenar and 175gr smk. You can actually get moderate weight 30 cal pills with decent BCs this day in age.
I just went through this myself. I had my gunsmith spin up an 18" 6.5 Creedmoor in a ~3B(ish) contour for hunting.
The plan initially was to use Hornady 143 ELD-X precision hunter ammo, which I have a few boxes of. Out of that barrel, I got velocities averaging right around 2500 fps, pretty slow. Factory Prime 130's are in the 2800+ fps range, Hornady factory 140 AMAX and ELD's 2600+ fps.
I was hoping for ~2650 fps out of the precision hunter ammo, but the short barrel just wasn't going to make it happen.
If you go short 6.5 Creedmoor, it may be worth playing with light bullets, such as Hornady 123 ELD's and Lapua 123 Scenars. That's the route I'm taking to pick up some velocity.
The plan initially was to use Hornady 143 ELD-X precision hunter ammo, which I have a few boxes of. Out of that barrel, I got velocities averaging right around 2500 fps, pretty slow. Factory Prime 130's are in the 2800+ fps range, Hornady factory 140 AMAX and ELD's 2600+ fps.
I was hoping for ~2650 fps out of the precision hunter ammo, but the short barrel just wasn't going to make it happen.
If you go short 6.5 Creedmoor, it may be worth playing with light bullets, such as Hornady 123 ELD's and Lapua 123 Scenars. That's the route I'm taking to pick up some velocity.
Why not split the difference, and get the best of both worlds... A 1:8 twist 7mm-08 Remington. 
Brass can easily be made from Lapua Palma .308 Win, and you get the selection and weight options of a 7mm, ranging from 120 up to 195gr.
Brass can easily be made from Lapua Palma .308 Win, and you get the selection and weight options of a 7mm, ranging from 120 up to 195gr.
My personal take: at 16" your 300WSM options will not really perform that much better than .308win, since you don't really have enough barrel to make use of the powder burn a magnum cartridge affords (at least with factory loadings)
My suggestion would be to find a .308 short action you like and consider something that will fit an MDT HNT26 chassis, then buy a case of Federal Terminal Ascent .308w
The terminal ascent line from federal is one of the better factory loadings I've ever come across, and as stated in other threads here and discussions elsewhere, it's one of the few "premium factory loads" that I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off because it actually does what it says on the tin. Excellent expansion from 0-800+ yards, better wind bucking than pretty much anything that isn't a handloaded hybrid ogive otm bullet.
using a Hnt26 chassis and carbon fiber wrapped barrel should give you a very lightweight rifle, especially with lower magnification optics.
Federal also makes TA in 6.5CM, 300WSM, and 300WM if you're inclined to go those routes, but I don't think you'd get maximum performance.
www.federalpremium.com
My suggestion would be to find a .308 short action you like and consider something that will fit an MDT HNT26 chassis, then buy a case of Federal Terminal Ascent .308w
The terminal ascent line from federal is one of the better factory loadings I've ever come across, and as stated in other threads here and discussions elsewhere, it's one of the few "premium factory loads" that I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off because it actually does what it says on the tin. Excellent expansion from 0-800+ yards, better wind bucking than pretty much anything that isn't a handloaded hybrid ogive otm bullet.
using a Hnt26 chassis and carbon fiber wrapped barrel should give you a very lightweight rifle, especially with lower magnification optics.
Federal also makes TA in 6.5CM, 300WSM, and 300WM if you're inclined to go those routes, but I don't think you'd get maximum performance.
Buy Terminal Ascent 308 Win Ammo 175 | P308TA1
Shopping for the Terminal Ascent - Learn more about the latest Terminal Ascent and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.
www.federalpremium.com
My 11” 308w with 155 hybrid is transonic at 770 yards where as my 12” 6.5CM with 140s is transonic at 980 yards.
The 308 has a higher velocity despite the shorter barrel and heavier bullet, but granted my 308 is a hand load v the 6.5CM being a factory Berger load.
Will run some hunter later to give you comparative energy.
Have not hunted with the 12”, but the 11” does very well. Haven’t had a runner yet with 155 hybrids. Both are shooting we Berger bullets.
The 308 has a higher velocity despite the shorter barrel and heavier bullet, but granted my 308 is a hand load v the 6.5CM being a factory Berger load.
Will run some hunter later to give you comparative energy.
Have not hunted with the 12”, but the 11” does very well. Haven’t had a runner yet with 155 hybrids. Both are shooting we Berger bullets.
Been in this dilemma myself, thought I had made a decision (even have my 308 listed here) but am still going back and forth.
Using some of the short barrel velocity from other sources (rifleshooter) I build this quick and dirty chart using hornady 4dof
308 is 168 gmm velocity but 168 tmk bc, then a hotter hand load same bullet, last is 140 eldm
All that to show best case the difference in drift at 550 is less than 5” with a 10pm wind. Basically the 6.5 affords you 1 more mph wind error to still hit the vitals at 550. (.37 moa/mph 308 and .29 moa / mph 6.5) But that difference shrinks as distance shrinks.
Honestly feel it comes down to what you want, if you will be using the rifle to shoot matches, and what you’re already setup for. Within 500, both will kill up to elk and more than likely the slight edge in drift on the 6.5 won’t make a difference in a good hit and a terrible one.
Using some of the short barrel velocity from other sources (rifleshooter) I build this quick and dirty chart using hornady 4dof
308 is 168 gmm velocity but 168 tmk bc, then a hotter hand load same bullet, last is 140 eldm
All that to show best case the difference in drift at 550 is less than 5” with a 10pm wind. Basically the 6.5 affords you 1 more mph wind error to still hit the vitals at 550. (.37 moa/mph 308 and .29 moa / mph 6.5) But that difference shrinks as distance shrinks.
Honestly feel it comes down to what you want, if you will be using the rifle to shoot matches, and what you’re already setup for. Within 500, both will kill up to elk and more than likely the slight edge in drift on the 6.5 won’t make a difference in a good hit and a terrible one.
Energy doesn’t kill critters.
So eff all that noise
Why so short of a barrel?
If a guy was using on boats often or bush bashing monkey scrub or alders then I can see the appeal but if ur hunting Muleys and elk and often shooting 600 yards to sheep ur probably not on that fight.
So eff all that noise
Why so short of a barrel?
If a guy was using on boats often or bush bashing monkey scrub or alders then I can see the appeal but if ur hunting Muleys and elk and often shooting 600 yards to sheep ur probably not on that fight.
OP said short handy rifle for trekking, I’d like the same to be ran always suppressed. A can on my 26in barrel gets unwieldy.
Agree fpe is a lot of fluff, but a good velocity to cause expansion is what I use to help set max distance on game.
Ehh i was getting 2750 out of my brothers 20” 308 with 165gr tgk. I would expect 2650 easy with the 168gr tmk out of my XM3. Least the numbers i ran between my 6.5x47 and 308 inside of 500yds it went to the 308. For the given application. And i pushed my 6.5x47. Although the creed has more powder capacity
Please tell me they’re bolt guns … would love to see a photo if they are.
For what it's worth, this is what I did. 16" Proof Barrel in a Q Fix with a Silencerco Omega using the Gtiffin Titanium Brake and Plan A Mount. Shooting 147s over 42.2-42.5 RL16 gives 3-shot groups in the .2-.4s and spits em out at 2555-2570 with SDs of 3.8 for 6 shots. With a Vortex LHT this is my perfect mountain/hunting rifle and it's pure sex to boot.
Doooooo Iiiiiiiiit!
My personal take: at 16" your 300WSM options will not really perform that much better than .308win, since you don't really have enough barrel to make use of the powder burn a magnum cartridge affords (at least with factory loadings)
My suggestion would be to find a .308 short action you like and consider something that will fit an MDT HNT26 chassis, then buy a case of Federal Terminal Ascent .308w
The terminal ascent line from federal is one of the better factory loadings I've ever come across, and as stated in other threads here and discussions elsewhere, it's one of the few "premium factory loads" that I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off because it actually does what it says on the tin. Excellent expansion from 0-800+ yards, better wind bucking than pretty much anything that isn't a handloaded hybrid ogive otm bullet.
using a Hnt26 chassis and carbon fiber wrapped barrel should give you a very lightweight rifle, especially with lower magnification optics.
Federal also makes TA in 6.5CM, 300WSM, and 300WM if you're inclined to go those routes, but I don't think you'd get maximum performance.
Buy Terminal Ascent 308 Win Ammo 175 | P308TA1
Shopping for the Terminal Ascent - Learn more about the latest Terminal Ascent and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.
Appreciate the response. Are there no other elk-worthy calibers optimized around a shorter barrel? 7mm-08, 300WSM or any other short mag? Or is 308 more or less the only one?
7mm-08 will do as an option, but if you're not handloading I wouldn't recommend it.
the only real way you'll get anything more effective than Terminal Ascent/TTSX/ELD-X in .308 at your specified distances is by going to a long action with a larger bore size. of course the bigger the action and the barrel, the more weight it will be. Something like .376 Steyr, etc
so Carbon Fiber wrapped .308 in a light chassis or stock will get you the best weight/length to performance. You're basically asking for something that's essentially the old cooper scout rifle concept.
It's really early in the lifecycle but a Sig Cross in .277 Fury might be just the ticket. A 150gr projectile doing 2800fps out of a 16 inch barrel seems like it's exactly what the doctor ordered. Personally I'm still in "wait and see" mode but I really hope the cartridge takes off.
I completely agree. the 277 is very intriguing.
- To get those crazy velocities, we are going to need those cartridges with the steel base. When does Sig make that ammo available civilian market in volumes necessary to support demand?
- can commonly available actions - Savage, M700 and clones, Tikka take the pressure? If so, I see an Origin SA build in my future.
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I'd buy a Cross rifle right now if dies, load data and brass was even semi-available. But until that happens I'm going to have to sit on the fence and hope.
Maybe Sig will share more details as Shot Show approaches. Or if we are really lucky other manufacturers will license the technology and jump on the bandwagon.
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I don't think anything else out there is officially compatible with 80k PSI rounds. So we will have to wait for new actions, use the Sig Cross, or be really crazy and use an existing action. My hope is that manufacturers realize that if high pressure rounds take off a whole bunch of us are going to be in the market for new guns, ammo, and reloading supplies.
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This is Sniper Hide, if you ain’t loading to 80k, you ain't trying hard enough!
I agree with you though.
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The current lack of officially high-pressure capable actions, Steel base brass, and other necessary components are the primary reason I did not suggest .277 Fury
It does check all the boxes, and if it takes off (as it should with US military adoption) then it would absolutely become my top choice for this kind of build.
It does check all the boxes, and if it takes off (as it should with US military adoption) then it would absolutely become my top choice for this kind of build.
80K shouldn't be a problem just find a piano to strip the wire from and use it to wind around the barrel just like James Craig did in the movie 'Drums In The Deep South'.
Aahh....on second thought DON'T do that, Drums In The Deep South was fiction and 80k isn't.
Aahh....on second thought DON'T do that, Drums In The Deep South was fiction and 80k isn't.
I looked at a Sig Cross once and the action did not seem particularly beefy, bolt and 3 lugs don't appear especially strong and the semi-auto gun the Army is buying looks just like an AR10 action. I don't think either gun was built to be stronger than a typical bolt action rifle.
I think the metal base was designed to absorb/delay some of the max pressure before it gets transferred to the action. If that is true, it should work with most common bolt action rifles.
I’ve had a hands-on with the MCX Spear, they’re using aerospace grade high-nickel steels to gain the strength without having to increase the size drastically, much the same as ruger has done with the SFAR. it is definitely not “just an AR10 action” the barrel is also made of a new material, but my friend was understandably not of a desire to clean the finish off a spot and put it under an x-ray diffraction gun
I think the biggest trend you will see moving forward is increased use of those alloy steels to allow either high pressure short actions without much geometry change, or lighter and slimmer long actions
IIRC the bolt in the sig cross is circa 20-21mm diameter, with modular bolt face, which can presumably come in different grades of materials if required for the high pressure rounds. I don't think this is a case of 'eyballing it' being good engineering evaluation.
just my $0.02 cents, but i have no insider info
I definitely would not be the idiot who tests the 80K load in my own gun just assuming it would be perfectly safe. I'll wait until the factory 277 Fury start coming out.
Back in the day Weatherby sold a lot of rifles by selling the idea that the Mark V action was the strongest. He backed up his claim by pointing out features (example - 9 lugs) the Mark V had that other actions lacked. Whether it was BS or not, it sold a lot of rifles.
To my knowledge, Sig hasn't provided any explanation to explain why the actions in a lightweight rifle have super strength vs something like a M700.
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"Save $$" and "Barrett Fieldcraft" don't go in the same sentence.
I've been a proponent of 6.5CM's ability to effectively take game for a while now.
I've shot deer from 40-300 with my 20" CTR in 6.5 with excellent results.
That said, even out of a 16" 308 I've noticed that the damage is more substantial at the same ranges.
If you can confidently call wind and take field supported shots into the vitals with the 308, then that's what I would choose.
There are however reasons to go with the 6.5: if you need less recoil, need a less substantial wind call, less damage to meat, etc.
I've shot deer from 40-300 with my 20" CTR in 6.5 with excellent results.
That said, even out of a 16" 308 I've noticed that the damage is more substantial at the same ranges.
If you can confidently call wind and take field supported shots into the vitals with the 308, then that's what I would choose.
There are however reasons to go with the 6.5: if you need less recoil, need a less substantial wind call, less damage to meat, etc.
Once again TLDR warning so move along if you don't give two cold s**ts
.308 mostly, but that's what I have the most experience with.
6.5 kind of because of the 6.5 x 55
The .308 in the Remington 788 (both versions) as well as multiple battle rattles.
The 6.5 in too many rifles to detail properly but included a Md 70 and a Surplus Swede/Mauser.
Actually neither.
The 35's. This includes every 38 Spl , .357 Mag pistol bullet. This includes every loading of the 35 Remington. This includes everything .357-.358".
Now pick your rifle brass. I'd stay with the short action and expand LC .308. Better yet there is a fair argument to Improve the chamber although it's another step. Then again, .35 Remington is already there if not available in stores near you.
There's a bump in the road, however. There are some pistol bullets that will not stay in one piece at extended velocities with a 1:9 -1:10 twist. The first that comes to mind are the 125gr Silvertips. There are some heavies, 250gr plus, that also won't stabilize.
Why?
Bullet selection. My favorites were the 125gr, truncated cone, semi-jacketed, flat point at some predictable node over 2,200 to 2,400. Much faster and you detonate small game at short ranges.
Most any 158gr loaded down to reasonable cast boolit velocities. Same for 200gr Lyman.
Whatever that 225gr was that Nosler put on the Whelan.
Share rifle and pistol caliber. Add a .357 lever gun or 35 Remington (141) and a revolver and you're covered. At that point if you have something like the Remington 141 do you really need a reach out and touch little things far away bolt gun?
At this point .358 bullet selection just might be second only to .308 and possibly greater.
.35/.308 AR10. What a novel concept. You know it's been done. Think of all the rail space you'd have to clown it up! Or not and stay high speed low drag. Consider barrel weight/length carefully here. 16" is no better an answer than 24" so use your head and get the result you want.
Why not?
Because you asked 6.5 or .308.
Expanding .308 is not a one operation deal and should include an anneal step and results in a somewhat thinner neck.
Because you don't see the convenience in having the same rifle and pistol bullet diameters.
Because you have no interest in detonating pests at close range with pistol bullets traveling 1,000 ft/sec faster than they were designed for.
Because you don't agree with a rifle in a caliber that allows you to go between a 125 varmint round and 250gr bear poison in seconds.
Because you have no need to share rifle and pistol caliber.
Because you don't see the utility of having a 250gr soft point to distract a bear.
Yes, I said distract. I've had to convince a bear and myself that the bear was indeed dead. The trouble is the bear figured this out some time after I did. The bear never got within 30 yards, but he knew where I was and was headed in my direction. I don't think multiple 6.5's could have been a viable talking point. I'm not sure a .308 mono/solid would have been convincing. I am sure that of the 4 hits, two 250gr 35 round nose were placed well enough to be a convincing argument and the third ended it.
Sights
I'd use a LPVO and have. It's one of the many 4X prism scopes. Works well. ACOG, sure why not. I just don't see the need here for big tube big mag FFP clown scope. Only reason I'd use an optic now is my eyes. Up to the last few years I'd have been happy with micro click diopter irons.
So TLDR from some greybeard that likely knows nothing or something to think about. It's up to you I didn't force anyone to read it.
.308 mostly, but that's what I have the most experience with.
6.5 kind of because of the 6.5 x 55
The .308 in the Remington 788 (both versions) as well as multiple battle rattles.
The 6.5 in too many rifles to detail properly but included a Md 70 and a Surplus Swede/Mauser.
Actually neither.
The 35's. This includes every 38 Spl , .357 Mag pistol bullet. This includes every loading of the 35 Remington. This includes everything .357-.358".
Now pick your rifle brass. I'd stay with the short action and expand LC .308. Better yet there is a fair argument to Improve the chamber although it's another step. Then again, .35 Remington is already there if not available in stores near you.
There's a bump in the road, however. There are some pistol bullets that will not stay in one piece at extended velocities with a 1:9 -1:10 twist. The first that comes to mind are the 125gr Silvertips. There are some heavies, 250gr plus, that also won't stabilize.
Why?
Bullet selection. My favorites were the 125gr, truncated cone, semi-jacketed, flat point at some predictable node over 2,200 to 2,400. Much faster and you detonate small game at short ranges.
Most any 158gr loaded down to reasonable cast boolit velocities. Same for 200gr Lyman.
Whatever that 225gr was that Nosler put on the Whelan.
Share rifle and pistol caliber. Add a .357 lever gun or 35 Remington (141) and a revolver and you're covered. At that point if you have something like the Remington 141 do you really need a reach out and touch little things far away bolt gun?
At this point .358 bullet selection just might be second only to .308 and possibly greater.
.35/.308 AR10. What a novel concept. You know it's been done.
Think of all the rail space you'd have to clown it up! Or not and stay high speed low drag. Consider barrel weight/length carefully here. 16" is no better an answer than 24" so use your head and get the result you want. Why not?
Because you asked 6.5 or .308.
Expanding .308 is not a one operation deal and should include an anneal step and results in a somewhat thinner neck.
Because you don't see the convenience in having the same rifle and pistol bullet diameters.
Because you have no interest in detonating pests at close range with pistol bullets traveling 1,000 ft/sec faster than they were designed for.
Because you don't agree with a rifle in a caliber that allows you to go between a 125 varmint round and 250gr bear poison in seconds.
Because you have no need to share rifle and pistol caliber.
Because you don't see the utility of having a 250gr soft point to distract a bear.
Yes, I said distract. I've had to convince a bear and myself that the bear was indeed dead. The trouble is the bear figured this out some time after I did. The bear never got within 30 yards, but he knew where I was and was headed in my direction. I don't think multiple 6.5's could have been a viable talking point. I'm not sure a .308 mono/solid would have been convincing. I am sure that of the 4 hits, two 250gr 35 round nose were placed well enough to be a convincing argument and the third ended it.
Sights
I'd use a LPVO and have. It's one of the many 4X prism scopes. Works well. ACOG, sure why not. I just don't see the need here for big tube big mag FFP clown scope. Only reason I'd use an optic now is my eyes. Up to the last few years I'd have been happy with micro click diopter irons.
So TLDR from some greybeard that likely knows nothing or something to think about. It's up to you I didn't force anyone to read it.
Certainly an option, but I tend not to assume that everyone reloads just because I do, so I try and stick to calibers with a decent selection of factory available ammo
if reloading is an option, then something like .376 Steyr is ideal. Pity steyr doesn't still make the Dragoon Scout or @Nivium could just buy one and call it a day (since the scout rifles were designed for exactly this sort of use)
I have a Sig Cross in 6.5CM and it loves Winchester Deer 125g which come out at 2668 fps. Zeroed at 175y, which gives a secondary zero of 47y, and the groups are sub MOA. I just aim dead on out to 200y no matter what the wind and the round does the rest.
I am not saying 6.5CM is a better round than a .308, just letting you know what combination works for me.
I am in England and all my shooting has been in Wiltshire, Gloucestershire & Cornwall for deer and foxes.
I am not saying 6.5CM is a better round than a .308, just letting you know what combination works for me.
I am in England and all my shooting has been in Wiltshire, Gloucestershire & Cornwall for deer and foxes.
Good to know, thanks. I'm surprised you can have a sig cross in England. What's the rule? Just no semi-auto? Is it a miserable regulatory process to get a bolt action or pistol? Mostly curious
Just went through this same dilemma. Settled with an 18” Kimber Adirondack in 7mm-08. Just got it put together so no rounds down range yet.
As long as you have the cleared land to shoot on you can have a bolt action rifle subject to licence approval/background checks, etc. The calibre and use of the weapon will have to be stated and agreed on by police too. You can have a semi-auto .22LR or .22WMR, but the same rules apply to owning them.
Shotguns are a slightly easier process but no pistols unless you are approved for deer dispatch and then its a revolver with only three chambers.
Getting a licence is not easy and nor is keeping it these days. The police will use any excuse to try and remove your weapons and then you will have expensive court battles to try and get them back.
Keep fighting for your rights in America!
I have both and love both. They seem to be pretty close in all honesty. I think for hunting I would stick to the 308 as you have a huge range of bullets to work with. In my 308 I shoot from 110s to 208s and you can find something that works pretty well. For the CM I usually just go 123/140ish but I do want to play with the 153s to see what it will do. It may change my mind.
Happy hunting!
Happy hunting!
I am guessing you do not or have no desire to reload? You mention "factory" precision hunter ammo, but I'm guessing you could easily make your 2650 with some reloads after playing around with a few formulas. Oddly enough I have been reading more and more that shooters are preferring the ELD-M vs. ELD-X for hunting which is unusual, maybe the bonded X bullet not doing as much damage as the M bullet which likely comes apart after impact. Sierra's TMK's seem to get a better rap than Hornady's ELD-X FWIW.
The shortest "prefit" barrel I can get from Proof in a carbon wrap is 22" for 6.5 Creedmoor (for Defiance), I'd prefer a 20" and can get that in 308 but not certain yet I want to go 308. I used to be a diehard "go 308 or go home" fan, but a situation back around 2014 changed my mind and I haven't really looked back (switched my 308's to 6.5 Creed) until recently. I do think there is some merit in a lightweight hunter to the fact the 6.5 Creed is a "softer" shooter vs 308 which tends to be a thumper in lightweight rigs.
I have given this some serious consideration as well, I have a 686 .357 that I love and have often thought how viable a 357 lever action rifle would be for short range/jungle work, I do not think it replaces a good bolt action, but may compliment it well especially if you live in an area where the jungle is thick. Plus there is something nostalgic about lever actions, maybe because I grew up watching westerns and idolized the "Rifleman"
I do reload. I just had a bunch of boxes of 143 ELD-X precision hunter that I wanted to use.
I'm now reloading 123 ELD's and 123 Scenars for this barrel, and getting about 2800 fps.
How about 300WSM vs. 7 Saum vs. 7mm-08? Priorities are lightweight, ammo availability, and long effective range.
I absolutely loved my 7 SAUM and felt it offered enough speed I could shorten quite a bit and still get plenty of speed and energy on large game at distance, but I never did chop it down and ended up selling my rifle. If you're going with factory ammo I'd say 300 WSM, if reloading then 7 SAUM without question, just not enough oomph in 7-08 from short barrel IMO.
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