308 vs. 6.5 Creed in 16 inch lightweight bolt gun for mountain trekking

[Nivium]

Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

Thanks again

 

[Supersubes]

Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

Thanks again

Nothing connecting 7-08 or any suitable standard hunting cartridge to a short barrel.

 

[Glassaholic]

Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

Thanks again

I guess it depends on the purpose with regard to ideal? You can run the ballistics and see if it works.

@MOUNTIC has 6.5 PRC with fairly short barrel. Yes, 6.5 PRC definitely has more availability on the shelves. Same concept as WSM and SAUM - short, fat, magnum…

 

[SkyScrapin]

Please tell me they’re bolt guns … would love to see a photo if they are.

Not light weight but they do hunt.

Here’s the 6.5CM in all of 12”.

11” 308 Win far right.

 

[Graywolf.260]

Great rifles posted up here. But regarding the original goal of the OP (a super lightweight, short barrel, low recoil hunting rifle good within 600 yards for antelope up to elk with factory ammo available) it seems obvious that a .308 is a good choice. There's a wide choice of factory ammo or great bullets for occasional reloading for longer range. Ballistics aren't significantly different from 6.5 out to 600yds and the performance on game is better, so is the barrel life. A UPR in .308 at 20" or cut down to 16" would be sweet.

 

[PhilOX11]

Not light weight but they do hunt.

Here’s the 6.5CM in all of 12”.
View attachment 7993930

11” 308 Win far right.

View attachment 7993931

Have you won the lottery or sold your soul to the devil?

 

[PhilOX11]

Regarding the original goal of the OP: a light, short barrel, low recoil hunting rifle good within 600 yards for antelope up to elk. The answer is a .308 with the wide choice of bullets/ammo appropriate to the task.

I have run my Sig Cross 6.5CM, 18" barrel, through a chrono and it gives the following on Strelok Pro when zeroed at 175y using Winchester Deer 125g. That round is very accurate and matches Strelok Pro out to 350y which is as far as I have had chance to test it so far.
At 300y - 2201 fps, 1345 ft/lbs & a drop of 9.5". At 600y - 1787 fps, 887 ft/lbs & a drop of 82".
Not suggesting it is the answer to what he is looking for but at least he now has something to compare the rest to.

 

[Glassaholic]

Have you won the lottery or sold your soul to the devil?

You clearly haven't seen TheHorta's gear

 

[65x55guy]

Have you won the lottery or sold your soul to the devil?

That’s not necessarily an either/or question.

 

[PhilOX11]

That’s not necessarily an either/or question.

Very true, could have sold his soul first!

 

[SkyScrapin]

Very true, could have sold his soul first!

What's the going rate on Red Blooded American Souls? No Lotto winnings for me

 

[Glassaholic]

What's the going rate on Red Blooded American Souls? No Lotto winnings for me

Apparently it’s the price of 5 scoped AI’s

 

[65x55guy]

Apparently it’s the price of 5 scoped AI’s

An American soul? Awful proud of those aren’t you.

 

[powdahound76]

Apparently it’s the price of 5 scoped AI’s

Only 4.

That 11” .308 is a poors imposter….




@SkyScrapin - whats the details on that rifle/action?

 

[Glassaholic]

Only 4.

That 11” .308 is a poors imposter….




@SkyScrapin - whats the details on that rifle/action?

Oh you're right, I've even seen that rifle first hand, I should have remembered that

 

[Glassaholic]

^^^ Image was modified to protect the innocent

 

[carbonbased]

^^^ Image was modified to protect the innocent

Rifle is much too long. How am I supposed to fit into my purse? Fail.

 

[Glassaholic]

Rifle is much too long. How am I supposed to fit into my purse? Fail.

You clearly haven't seen Mary Poppins

Also depends on the size of your purse

 

[carbonbased]

You clearly haven't seen Mary Poppins

Also depends on the size of your purse
View attachment 8000406

As if!

My purse:

 

[Glassaholic]

As if!

My purse:

View attachment 8000408

Wait a second, I didn't know my daughter was on the Hide (that is totally something she would buy)

Maybe not a rifle, but...

 

[carbonbased]

Wait a second, I didn't know my daughter was on the Hide (that is totally something she would buy)

Maybe not a rifle, but...
View attachment 8000415

Dad! U promised not to say that! I’m telling mom!

 

[Glassaholic]

Dad! U promised not to say that! I’m telling mom!

That's mom with the Glock in her purse, choose your words wisely sweetheart

 

[SkyScrapin]

Only 4.

That 11” .308 is a poors imposter….




@SkyScrapin - whats the details on that rifle/action?

Fact!

It's a Surgeon 591r Form1 rifle with Carbon Bartlein 11" 308winchester. Found a sweet load with 155hybrids and haven't looked back. Nice and handy, annnnd heavy.

 

[Glassaholic]

Nice and handy, annnnd heavy.

Hmmmm, I don't think those two go together

 

[SkyScrapin]

Hmmmm, I don't think those two go together
View attachment 8000492

It's implied.

 

[Glassaholic]

Fact!

It's a Surgeon 591r Form1 rifle with Carbon Bartlein 11" 308winchester. Found a sweet load with 155hybrids and haven't looked back. Nice and handy, annnnd heavy.

How does it shoot with the Federal TRU T308T? I'm getting my cut down 14" LMT 308 barrel soon from D. Wilson...

 

[George F]

I'm going to put together a super lightweight short action bolt gun for long distance trekking, and the barrel will be 14.5" p/w, 16" or, at the most, 16.5". Range will generally be within 300 yards, but opportunities for 600 yard shots on sheep are not uncommon. I would also like this to be a muley/elk gun, but the ranges on elk will obviously be closer. Will probably always be used with a can.

Don't have as much time to handload as I used to, so factory ammo will be used, probably at least half of the time.

There is a lot of discussion on here about short bbl 6.5 and creeds, and the 308 vs. 6.5 creed argument seems to never end. BUT, I am yet to see a good discussion pitting the .308 against the 6.5 creed with the caveat that the host barrel cannot exceed 16.5 inches.

I know the 6.5 creed is most efficient out of a 24" barrel or longer, whereas the 308 is more efficient than the 6.5 creed in shorter 16"-18" barrels. Ballistically, when we are talking 14.5-16 inch barrels, my math says the 308 and 6.5 creed are pretty close, with the 308 winning on energy inside of 200-300 yards. Any input on this?

Any other cartridge you would recommend? Not asking you to throw some wildcat in the ring here. I at least want to pick one that I can get decent amounts of hunting grade factory ammo for, and I want it short action for weight. Doesn't have to be 308 or 6.5 creed, but if handloading is a MUST for the cartridge, it's of no use to me right now.

Thanks

If you can’t or will not reload, you are handicapped right from the beginning by relegating yourself to mediocre ammo. 7mm08 or 308 would be my choice if Elk is on the menu also. With factory ammo you will never be able to use the best bullets to do the job you are contemplating, or get the best performance out of either caliber. 20” with or without a 5” suppressor would be my choice.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

Im guessing you’re either an Alaskan resident or you live near the unlimiteds in MT if shooting sheep is a regular thing for you.

I have an 18” ultralight 308 that I’ve carried on sheep hunts up here in Alaska for several years. It’s not unusually to pack in many days before really getting into hunting for sheep. The 308 with a good load worked up is plenty to kill rams. I’ve used 6.5 creedmoor on mountain goats but not in a lightweight/short barreled platform, just a basic tikka t3x loaded with 140g accubonds.

Neither of those rifles or cartridges would be my first choice for elk but either would work.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

If you can’t or will not reload, you are handicapped right from the beginning by relegating yourself to mediocre ammo. 7mm08 or 308 would be my choice if Elk is on the menu also. With factory ammo you will never be able to use the best bullets to do the job you are contemplating, or get the best performance out of either caliber. 20” with or without a 5” suppressor would be my choice.

What do you consider the best bullets for 308? I’ve had outstanding results handloading the 165g accubond. 150g ttsx and a few different bullets from hammer.

 

[George F]

What do you consider the best bullets for 308? I’ve had outstanding results handloading the 165g accubond. 150g ttsx and a few different bullets from hammer.

All copper bullets, primarily. The ones with the highest BC and petal reliably at extended ranges (600+ yds) with high penetration (2.5+ ft) down to 1700 ft impact. There is a long discussion about improving 308Win performance on LRH which suggests that the SRP primer brass, Leverevolution powder, give the best performance. I personally have a wide variety of 30 cal bolt guns, 4-308s, 2-300 WSMs, and 2-300Normas. To be honest I prefer the 308s loaded with Badlands BD2s in 150 and 175 gr to hunt with. The SRP Lapua or Peterson 308 Win brass is by far the most efficient cartridge at delivering energy to the bullet in terms of ft-lbs/ grain of powder. From a 26” 1:10 long throated 308Win barrel I am able to push the 150 gr to 3150 and the 175 gr to 2900 fps at a 2.960 COAL safely. The PT&G bore rider is so far the best throat design I have tried. More than enough performance there to kill anything I want in North America and Africa save for an Elephant or Cape Buffalo with the copper bullets I mentioned. I am certain that there will be many on this site that would disagree, but my response is try that combo of components, then we will talk.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

All copper bullets, primarily. The ones with the highest BC and petal reliably at extended ranges (600+ yds) with high penetration (2.5+ ft) down to 1700 ft impact. There is a long discussion about improving 308Win performance on LRH which suggests that the SRP primer brass, Leverevolution powder, give the best performance. I personally have a wide variety of 30 cal bolt guns, 4-308s, 2-300 WSMs, and 2-300Normas. To be honest I prefer the 308s loaded with Badlands BD2s in 150 and 175 gr to hunt with. The SRP Lapua or Peterson 308 Win brass is by far the most efficient cartridge at delivering energy to the bullet in terms of ft-lbs/ grain of powder. From a 26” 1:10 long throated 308Win barrel I am able to push the 150 gr to 3150 and the 175 gr to 2900 fps at a 2.960 COAL safely. The PT&G bore rider is so far the best throat design I have tried. More than enough performance there to kill anything I want in North America and Africa save for an Elephant or Cape Buffalo with the copper bullets I mentioned. I am certain that there will be many on this site that would disagree, but my response is try that combo of components, then we will talk.

I’ve managed to get 2930fps out of my 18” 308 with the 137g hammer hunter bullet. Standard Peterson or ADG brass and h4895. I’ve taken sheep, caribou, blacktail deer and black bear with that combo.

 

[supercorndogs]

Push your 308 over pressure to try to match the performance of the 6.5 Creed at 600+.

This thread is like arguing vanilla vs chocolate. You want to get more speed out of a creed shoot a lighter bullet, just like a 308. Suddenly that ballistic advantage of the 308 shooting 168s {not heaver for caliber} vs a 6.5 Creed shooting 140g bullet {heaver for caliber} disappears if you start shooting 120g bullets.

You can drive a 95g past 3300 and a 107 past 3100 while staying inside what Hodgdon lists and safe book loads with the 6.5 Creed.

 

[George F]

I’ve managed to get 2930fps out of my 18” 308 with the 137g hammer hunter bullet. Standard Peterson or ADG brass and h4895. I’ve taken sheep, caribou, blacktail deer and black bear with that combo.

That’s great. From my 20” I safely get 2950 fps using a 150 gr BD2 and LRP brass and LVR powder. Hunted all over the world with that combo. When things thaw out here I will try 51 gr LVR, Lapua Palma brass and the 150 BD2. Should expect 3000+ fps with a G1 BC of 515.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

That’s great. From my 20” I safely get 2950 fps using a 150 gr BD2 and LRP brass and LVR powder. Hunted all over the world with that combo. When things thaw out here I will try 51 gr LVR, Lapua Palma brass and the 150 BD2. Should expect 3000+ fps with a G1 BC of 515.

Maybe I’ll give some SRP brass a try in the future. I’ve never really considered it before. Same with the hornady powders, just never really gave them much thought.

 

[George F]

Maybe I’ll give some SRP brass a try in the future. I’ve never really considered it before. Same with the hornady powders, just never really gave them much thought.

SRP brass in the 308 was developed for the express purpose of maximizing powder charge, specifically Varget. It’s primer pocket being of a smaller diameter can withstand more pressure before expanding and loosening primers. Been there done that with LRP brass in several calibers, 308 among them. I don’t think that shooters fully realize what the 308 Win is really capable of doing.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

SRP brass in the 308 was developed for the express purpose of maximizing powder charge, specifically Varget. It’s primer pocket being of a smaller diameter can withstand more pressure before expanding and loosening primers. Been there done that with LRP brass in several calibers, 308 among them. I don’t think that shooters fully realize what the 308 Win is really capable of doing.

Interesting. I have about 200lbs of varget so I’ll definetly look for a bit of SRP 308 brass. Thanks for the info.

 

[George F]

Interesting. I have about 200lbs of varget so I’ll definetly look for a bit of SRP 308 brass. Thanks for the info.

Let us know what you think. Also you might try contacting John Pierce from Pierce Engineering. He used to shoot F-class and used to stuff as much Varget as he could into 308 cases. Also, leverevolution works well in 308Win and runs well up to 85-90F ambient temp. Would not leave the ammo in the sun though.

SRP brass in 308Win may be scarce but Peterson makes it for the 260 Rem so necking up that brass is definitely feasable. You can get it at Graf&Sons

 

[Graywolf.260]

I just started loading the 150 BD2, the BC blows away hammer or Barnes bullets. First conservative load I tried with LVR (47 gr) Im getting 2921 fps in a 20” Tikka. Unfortunately there wont be any more Lapua 308 SRP for a while, probably because the German army realized it might be a good idea to have more than 2 days worth of ammunition in the event a ground war starts in Europe.

 

[George F]

I just started loading the 150 BD2, the BC blows away hammer or Barnes bullets. First conservative load I tried with LVR (47 gr) Im getting 2921 fps in a 20” Tikka. Unfortunately there wont be any more Lapua 308 SRP for a while, probably because the German army realized it might be a good idea to have more than 2 days worth of ammunition in the event a ground war starts in Europe.

Two comments. First, the Germans are waking up to the fact that Russia could actually do to them what they did to the Russians in the summer of 1941. My second comment is that there is good news. First of all the 47 gr LVR load you specified is very doable and safe in LRP brass. In fact I have used an almost identical load shot from 20” barrels for years in LRP brass with no pressure issues. The other bit of good news is that Peterson makes SRP brass in 260 Rem, a 308 derivative. Last I saw it was available at Graf&Sons a few days ago. You could expand the neck using the .308 expander in your sizing die. If you want to try that I can help you with that if you wish. Get some graphite powder from the hardware store and Q-tips to lube the necks.

 

[Falcon_325]

What did you decide to go with?

FWIW, I opted for a 12” .375 Raptor with a CFbarrel. It’s terminal on large game with subsonic rounds, very handy with a reflex AB suppressor and a variety of loads from 190gr to 260gr and 400gr subs.

 

[Nivium]

What did you decide to go with?

FWIW, I opted for a 12” .375 Raptor with a CFbarrel. It’s terminal on large game with subsonic rounds, very handy with a reflex AB suppressor and a variety of loads from 190gr to 260gr and 400gr subs.

I picked up an 18 inch 6.5 PRC at about 6 and half pounds (short action). I'm loving it thus far. Been relatively easy to find factory ammo and insanely accurate. Still going to build out a 16 inch 308 when the right parts come around, but so far the 6.5 PRC seems as close to a do all lightweight rifle as I could have asked for

 

[45-90]

Too bad the new 277 Fury with the hybrid cases hasn't taken off...short 16" barrel 140 at 3000 fps and 80,000 psi would be perfect in the 6.5 lb Sig cross rifle, factory ammo is scarce, and rifles had a few issues when the first came out. I would buy one and reload for it, but the haven't been available in 277, but a 308 is available in 16" and a 6.5 Creedmoor in 18" ...but a hybrid cased 277 Fury has them beat in a 16" barrel by far in factory form, if it were readily available..
I have both the rifles in 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 Win. The 308 has the advantage in normal hunting conditions under 300 yds which will be most of your hunting...the 308 has the energy and advantage.
Neither the 6.5 creed or 308 win is a 600 yd Elk cartridges IMO, that begins at 30 mags, longer barrels, and larger calibers, like 338 mags or 300 RUM.
A short, light rifle is easy to carry but harder to shoot accurately at especially the longer ranges.
Right now the 16" barreled Sig Cross with hybrid cased 277 Fury is the rifle that could go light and fairly long range. Berger has some elete hunter .277" bullets, but you don't want to handload, which puts you at big disadvantage in any caliber. I have 800 bi-metal hybrid 277 Fury cases I reform to 6.5 Creedmoor, 308 Win, and 358 Win.
If you hand load and 18" 308 can be effective with heavy high BC bullets, but 14" and 16" cuts into velocities even more. I like 22" 9 twist in 308 for all around, if you handload. You can run .777 BC 225 gr eldm at 2577 fps, 208 ELDM at 2640 fps, 168 Berger hunting at 2920 fps. To me a 22" barrel is not long on a bolt gun, mine is 7.5 lbs without scope with muzzle brake and detachable mag...it could be built lighter, with different stock fluted barrel, etc. Your build is not my build, and need for a variety of factory ammo leads to the 308 is the logical choice for more energy in a short barrel, since 277 bi metal cased Furry is AWOL at this time.

 

[supercorndogs]

Those velocities in 308 in a 22" barrel would some stupid hot ammo.

 

[45-90]

Those velocities in 308 in a 22" barrel would some stupid hot ammo.

I shoot 308s by the 10 of thousands over a period of 40 yrs. Through barrel after barrel, in twists from 12, 10, 9, & 8, with barrels of 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 27, & 30 inches. Autos and bolts, long action, and short actions. Plus I can load the bi-metal hybrid cases for even more velocity, higher than for the brass cases posted here. It's possible to get over 3700 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of these 308 cases in long barrels, hybrid reformed 277 fury cases, and long action, will get 200 gr SMK .715 BC to 2952 fps 8 twist barrel, set up for up to 250 gr Atips.

 

[supercorndogs]

 

[45-90]

I weighed 49.1 grains of Leverevolution behind a 150 gr Speer Gold Dot they claim .503 G1 BC which is doubtful and got 2862, 2897, 2868, fps 18.7 S/D in a 22" 5 R Bartlein 9 twist. Their manual states 3025 fps with 53.1 gr of 2000 MR powder, and do not list Leverevolution...it's hard to get high velocities with shorter barrels. I have a bunch of Palma SR and regular LR brass in 308, the small primer brass gave up a little velocity in a side by side test, so the slight amount of powder increase was necessary to gain equal velocity of LR case. I load hundreds of both, and tend to lean towards the LR Lapua brass and have many new boxes of Palma brass ...both work, both accurate, but I won't miss the Palma brass as it's being put on hold in order to keep up production of more popular brass casings.

That’s great. From my 20” I safely get 2950 fps using a 150 gr BD2 and LRP brass and LVR powder. Hunted all over the world with that combo. When things thaw out here I will try 51 gr LVR, Lapua Palma brass and the 150 BD2. Should expect 3000+ fps with a G1 BC of 515.

G

 

[kopcicle]

Universal receiver and a 30" barrel. 1:9.
So far, our* max Ft/Sec in .277 anything past 160gr in a cup and core bullet is 3220.
Then odd things start to happen.
With out knowing the mechanism we're all in agreement that the bullet is distorting in the bore.
Next up is solid copper but that brings its own set of problems.
Thankfully the one problem this solves is uneven radial displacement of the lead core.
Now how do you seal an all-copper bullet to the bore without the obturation and engraving of the cup and softer core?

Hammer Bullets. Do your own deep dive. What's old is new. Remember Lyman multi-lube-groove rifle molds? Just slightly different for the same reasons.

French 75mm. Driving band. Just a little different than the split ring you see in fishing tackle or your key ring. Different material and profile but same thing.

Driving band part deux. An actual driving band heat shrunk and swagged into a groove.

FSCKIT, Send it. Just alter the difference between land and groove until something works.

I can only do limited precision turning on a manual machine and can't get out to test. Even then my testing would be in a conventional action with a bull barrel at limited pressures and instrumentation.
I have two actions that were originally proofed at or near 80K psi but I'm sure that any regular diet of high pressures would significantly shorten their lifespan. I have no way presently of testing the capabilities of the bi-metal case.

The Swiss Lathes won't be available until this winter. They are tied up on contracts at least until then. In the meantime, several of us get together on the odd think tank video call and drink Scotch. Mostly drink Scotch but there is some progress.

Just so you don't get any idea that I'm more than a hack, a bit of disclosure.
I sit at home with ideas in my head and a few interesting machines. I do what I can as far as repeatable precision but honestly, I'm better at measuring than I am at machining. My machines and I have limitations. Other than age related it comes down to construction and maintenance. The same goes for the machines ;-)

I'm fortunate that I shared some of these ideas with a business owner that shares my imagination and will.
He has the machines and I have the time.

I have two general Thank Yous to offer here.
For the few that know why I'm at home near 24/7, thank you for your support. Who ever thought that the 'Hide could be a source of support and understanding. This membership has no trouble calling a turd a turd but is capable of amazing compassion.

To the very few that know about the project, Thank You for keeping our secrets. No one asked you for an NDA, we didn't have to.

and so it goes

 

[WindstormSCR]

With out knowing the mechanism we're all in agreement that the bullet is distorting in the bore.

My best guess is that there is an odd interaction between driving friction and copper's ductility, and there not being enough copper in the formed cup to resist the force of being 'drawn'

have you got the same results when using high-efficiency solid lubricants like MS2 or WS2? (or some of the boron compounds)

seems that might be something to try to reduce the friction in the bore and reduce the force acting on the copper jacket.

 

[kopcicle]

My best guess is that there is an odd interaction between driving friction and copper's ductility, and there not being enough copper in the formed cup to resist the force of being 'drawn'

have you got the same results when using high-efficiency solid lubricants like MS2 or WS2? (or some of the boron compounds)

seems that might be something to try to reduce the friction in the bore and reduce the force acting on the copper jacket.

Just passed this on the rest of the drunks think tank. Thank You.

 

[George F]

I just started loading the 150 BD2, the BC blows away hammer or Barnes bullets. First conservative load I tried with LVR (47 gr) Im getting 2921 fps in a 20” Tikka. Unfortunately there wont be any more Lapua 308 SRP for a while, probably because the German army realized it might be a good idea to have more than 2 days worth of ammunition in the event a ground war starts in Europe.

Starline is producing SRP brass in 308 Win. What I have noticed is that the Lapua LRP brass, the primer pockets tend to enlarge with repeated higher pressure loads whereas the SRP brass doesn’t. I’m using it in trials of a 136 gr BD2 bullet I’m testing and so far virgin Starline brass and 52 gives 3120-3140 fps from a 20” barrel safely. Doing gel testing now at low speed (1750 fps) to test expansion. For that I’m using Lapua LRP brass and H1000. The ignition is better with the LRP and the slow powder. Once the gel testing is complete will go back and try once fired Starline SRP brass to see whst the msx safe speed I can get in the 22” 1:9 twist barrel.