Range Report 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

#51
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Branden,

How far was the chrono from you and the shooter next to you? If you're shooting a brake or can, you can move the chrono closer to you, say 10'-12'. With a standard barrel, I put it about 15' or more away. When you start getting errors and erratic readings, it's usually picking up some of the muzzle blast. It could also be the light angle, but my money is on the chrono was too close.
I don't think groups 5 and 6 are flukes. It's not uncommon for a sweet spot to be found. Load up more to test, and see how it does. How did the groups look?

Chad
 
#52
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

The chrono has a 18' cord with it, and i'd have to say it was somewhere around 14' out, I didn't take a tape measure, i'll likely do that next time. The first position that I set it was way too far out, I couldn't get the cord back to the bench, so I had to move it back in several feet. The shooter in the next booth was farther away by maybe a couple feet, but i'd wager to say he was 7' to my right with a parallel firing position.

All the groups looked good, I was doing my best to keep the fundamentals together but the 208's are getting pushed out pretty hard, and the rifle was pushing back pretty hard on me too, hard enough a ear plug popped out once!

I'll get them scanned in here and posted in a bit, the rifle shoots just about everything i've put through it well, never have shot a group over 1" that wasn't a shooter issue. Most loads tend to hover in the .6-.7" range, i've gotten several under that, but most are in that range.

Branden
 
#53
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

9-1-09_LoadDev.jpg


Hope that's not too large, I wanted to make sure that you could at least read the groups sizes and what not.

Those dots are 1.5" BTW.

Branden
 
#56
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Well I took the plunge, just ordered 1200 208 A-Max and 15lbs of RL-17 from Powder Valley. I look forward to sharing my results in a few weeks!
 
#58
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Belisarius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one in Houston has RL-17? </div></div>

I saw some at Carter's Country along with RL-22 a few weeks ago but in 1lb bottles. At their prices for 1lb it is cheaper to order 15 from PVI and pay the 22.50 hazmat and no sales tax. I had to order the 208gr A-Max anyway, no one has them locally. So I was going to pay shipping on this stuff regardless.
 
#60
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I took the plunge, just ordered 1200 208 A-Max and 15lbs of RL-17 from Powder Valley. I look forward to sharing my results in a few weeks! </div></div>

Wow, that wasn't a cheap purchase!! I use to have that kind of money but then I got married and had kids.

Branden
 
#61
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

well i am on board. i loaded up some rounds today 3 rounds each 47-51 grains in .5 grain increments. at 49.5 grains i had 2 sticky bolt lifts and the third shot blew out the primer. so i have settled on 48.5 grains of rl-17 with the 208s in my rifle. it has a 22" barrel and i am guessing around 2600 fps. i will know for sure monday. ballistics should still be pretty good at that velocity. im excited.
 
#62
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well i am on board. i loaded up some rounds today 3 rounds each 47-51 grains in .5 grain increments. at 49.5 grains i had 2 sticky bolt lifts and the third shot blew out the primer. so i have settled on 48.5 grains of rl-17 with the 208s in my rifle. it has a 22" barrel and i am guessing around 2600 fps. i will know for sure monday. ballistics should still be pretty good at that velocity. im excited. </div></div>

Are you planning on going to the Big Piney "f-class" match later this month? I'm planning on shooting the 208's there if I can make up my mind on a load. I'm going to work on some 49grain loads on Tuesday. Last time out I got a ES of 4fps on 49.0gr with a velocity of 2560 out of a 20" tube. I want to see if I can duplicate the results.

I picked up another pound of RL17 today while I was at Cabelas with my girls. It was only $24.99 there rather than the $30.99 at the other place I went to.

Branden
 
#64
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

4 fps! How many shots were in that string? That'll be great for the vertical in the long range shots if it is as accurate as it is consistent. Which primer/brass? I'm getting excited to try these things as well.
 
#65
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

One thing I just thought of for you guys that have been using RL-17. How temp sensitive is it? By the time I do load development the true summer heat my be gone (if I get loading within 3 weeks it should still be over 90 every day) and I would be hesitant to choose a load near the max if this is a temp sensitive powder.
 
#66
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4 fps! How many shots were in that string? That'll be great for the vertical in the long range shots if it is as accurate as it is consistent. Which primer/brass? I'm getting excited to try these things as well. </div></div>

It was only 3 rounds, that's why I have to go out and re-shoot that load to see if I can duplicate it. I sure hope that it's the sweet spot and I can get the same results.

Branden
 
#68
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'm headed out tomorrow afternoon to re-test and confirm my previous findings on my 49.0gr load. I'm going to test FL sized brass, and i'm going to neck size only another batch of brass and see what, if any, changes there are. Hopefully I find a good load so I can test at longer ranges and be ready for the match at Big Piney later this month.

Branden
 
#69
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i chrono'd my loads today. im running a 22" barrel and 48.5 grains rl-17 behind the 208 amaxes. 2575 fps 3 shot average. should be good to go. </div></div>

BTW, what was your ES on that load?

Branden
 
#71
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762frmafr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ES was 8 FPS....no shit...i have 2 witnesses </div></div>

That's awesome! I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for my results today. I'm really hoping for some low ES numbers, hopefully less than 15fps. I tried some creative things to help my results, and "un-did" the "creativity" looking to see if there was a change in the ES results. I did a lot of weight sorting last night so I could create some extreme swings of projectile weight looking to see how much of a difference in ES that would create. I only had a few bullets left to load with to take today, i'm going to run to bass pro with the girls and pick some more up.

I'm going to need 40 for the match coming up anyway, better to get them now so I can mail-order them if they aren't in stock.

Branden
 
#73
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the ES was insanely low. His 175 SMK loads with RL15 were like 2 FPS spread too...I only wish I could get that! </div></div>
there goes one of my witnesses. by the way tyler, the leupold shipped off today.
 
#74
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I made it out today, however it was raining so I couldn't put the chrono out there. On top of that my trigger quit working, I haven't checked it yet, but I think the sear engagement adjustment screw made some self adjustments with the recoil and vibration of the rifle. Only got 16 rounds off today. Going to beg the wife to let me out on Saturday.

Branden
 
#75
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

It wasn't the sear engagement that was out of whack, the trigger return spring backed itself out and completely fell out of the rifle. I have improvised a fix at this time, however I have still emailed Sharp Shooter Supply to request a replacement screw (or 2, or 3). While I had the receiver out of the stock I decided to tune the trigger a little more as my overtravel was quite horrendous, and the safety setting wasn't quite right as the rifle would still go on safety after the rifle was fired. It's only suppose to go safe once the bolt is cocked.

At least this coming weekend isn't a total loss for quality range time, i'm still quite bummed that I didn't get any chrono data today. I should have just turned around and came home, but then next weekend would have been ruined most likely by the trigger, so I suppose it was a bit of a blessing.

Branden
 
#76
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Finally i'm able to report back with some data, I went to the range on Tuesday but it was raining, no chrono data, and the rifle broke. Fixed the rifle, went back out yesterday to repeat the testing, didn't take the skyscreens with me like a 'tard, no chrono data, however started to see a trend with COL settings. Was bummed out about the chrono problem and the wife made a fantastic suggestion, she said, go load up some more rounds and go out tomorrow morning first thing. So I did, and today I didn't forget my skyscreens, and I didn't go to the public range, I went to where I can shoot from the prone, and take my time, and not get rushed.

It's been quite a long while since i've shot from the prone, and I was trying to make sure my technique was correct, but I don't think it was very consistent. Oh well, the groups weren't terrible, I had some oddities due to me shifting holds in the middle of a group, pulling rounds, or not shooting on my NPA. But the chrono data all came through, no glitches, no hiccups, just 100% satisfactory data.

My loads were all 49.0gr RL17 behind the 208Amax with CCI200 primers and Lapua brass trimmed to 2.005", and neck sized 3/4 of the neck. I haven't done just neck sizing in a while, I'm going to do a side by side comparison of identical loads where the only variation is Full Length sized, and neck sized, and see if there is any improvement between the two. The only variation's in these loads was the COL. I've suspected that my second load with a COL of 3.260" (with my adapter) was in a sweet spot and today I confirmed it.

Load 1 3.250"
Lo 2497
Hi 2540
Avg 2515
ES 42.99
SD 15.9

Load 2 3.260" (Good load)
Lo 2530
Hi 2540
Avg 2534
ES 10.62
SD 3.87

Load 3 3.265"
Lo 2518
Hi 2545
Avg 2534
ES 27.01
SD 11.18

Load 4 3.270" (touching lands)
Lo 2532
Hi 2552
Avg 2542
ES 19.22
SD 7.87

Load 5 3.275 (slight jam)
Lo 2561
Hi 2587
Avg 2573
ES 26.29
SD 11.74

I find it kinda funny that the longer the OAL I went, the velocity climbed. I'm happy with the chrono results today, however my groups weren't making me as happy, but I think I know how to fix that, just need more practice shooting from the prone.

BTW, one question, can I be very sure that a flyer was cause by something I did (or didn't do) while firing that round is nothing shows on the chrono to suggest that there was a problem with that round?

Branden
 
#77
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Here's a 10-shot group at 100 yards I shot this afternoon. It was about 85 sunny, 5-10 mph full value wind.

I pushed out all 10 in about two minutes. Group started at the bottom and began climbing as the barrel warmed, and a gust (or maybe a twitch.....) pushed one out to the right. The ammo is easily capable of sub-moa consistency in this 1/12 barrel.

This was the 51gr load at 2650 fps.
308208AMax.jpg

308208amax10shot.jpg


I'll try to get some quantifiable 600-ish yard results one of these days. It shoots well to 1K+ at 1 moa sized rocks.
 
#78
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moly reduces friction and fouling.

Apparently not an issue with some of the better barrels out there. </div></div>

I'm new to reloading and have been shooting Hornady V-Max moly's and wondered if I should continue that. I've read a few articles which seem to try to put the fear of God in moly shooters like this one http://www.snipercountry.com/Ammunition/MolyWarning.asp.

Can someone give me the straight business about moly's?
 
#81
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'm thinking of trying the 210 Berger's over the winter. Hope to get some good results. Ballistically they are almost identical to the 208amax, but with superior manufacturing tolerance holding, and more retained energy at LONG distance.

Branden
 
#83
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking of trying the 210 Berger's over the winter. Hope to get some good results. Ballistically they are almost identical to the 208amax, but with superior manufacturing tolerance holding, and more retained energy at LONG distance.

Branden </div></div>

How would the 210 Berger have more retained energy? The A-Max has a better BC and I'm sure that will make up for the 2gr less bullet weight.
 
#84
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking of trying the 210 Berger's over the winter. Hope to get some good results. Ballistically they are almost identical to the 208amax, but with superior manufacturing tolerance holding, and more retained energy at LONG distance.

Branden </div></div>

How would the 210 Berger have more retained energy? The A-Max has a better BC and I'm sure that will make up for the 2gr less bullet weight. </div></div>

If you use Brian Litz's G7 BC's that he defined through real world testing vs. scientific estimation the difference between the 2 bullets at extreme ranges is almost identical. Given identical start velocities and conditions, JBM calculates the amax to go a whopping 4 more yards supersonic. The additional energy that is retained really is negligible, 13lbs/ft more energy at 500 as an example, 4 at 1000, so all in all, the bullets are virtually the same, no advantage, or disadvantage between the 2.

There use to be a PDF article somewhere on this site about testing between the 210 Berger, 208amax, and 155 Scenar, I gotta find that again and download, I lost that article in my last reformat of my computer.

Branden
 
#85
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

The differences between the three in the weight three are not worth mentioning as far as calculators are concerned. I'll shoot whatever is the most accurate and has the best performance on game. Like I said, I've got some testing to do. I'll shoot the .308 today (with the short throat) and see if the bedding has altered the accuracy any. I have some targets/loads/groups that I need to see if there has been any change. I really want to throat it out though. I may just cut it long and magazine length be damned.
 
#88
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, I've heard Bryan say (write) that the 208 AMax is the BEST bullet in it's class for aerodymnamics vs velocity. </div></div>

1+ on that. I am a firm believer in that 208 AMAX.
 
#89
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, I've heard Bryan say (write) that the 208 AMax is the BEST bullet in it's class for aerodymnamics vs velocity. </div></div>

I saw that post, and am glad you and Kombayotch have published some results with this bullet in .308. I got my bullets and powder last week and am waiting on my hBN (going to use it instead of moly). I hope to do some load development while our temps are still well in the 90s just in case RL-17 is temp sensitive.
 
#90
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I bought many of those bullets for a 300 RUM that I had. They are all quite old. I have a few Amax's left as well. The balllistics of said bullets at ~3300 fps from a long barreled RUM is quite the eye opener. So is the recoil, but that is something else entirely. The big SMK 240's launched at ~3100 hitting steel at 425 yards is like nothing else I've shot. I hear the 300 SMK's launched from one of the big .338s are cool too. Just scaling things down a bit I suppose.
 
#91
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

ffl medic......just curious what came of those Northwest Custom bullets you speak of. Pulled up the web site and drop my beer when I realized the price. How long are they and do they really track a 725 BC. Thanks for the info.
 
#92
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

These things are freakin' huge! 1.540. I haven't shot any yet as the rifle in question is not throated for anything other than 155's. I'll bet they are every bit of .700 though. We'll see. I only got 10 of them. The maker told me every one has to be chucked up in a lathe and the tips that are subcontracted out cost .60 a piece. A lot of time into each one. They look like a baby 750 A max!
 
#93
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

They look impressive to say the least. Think I read somewhere these require a 1/10 barrel which I have but as for a throat space.......hmmmm, don’t know. I guess you can always back off the powder though. Anyways, when you get a chance to send’em I'd be interested in knowing what you find.
 
#94
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Did some testing today, RL-17 + 208 a-max in 308win, 30" Krieger barrel, 1-11" twist, temp was 91F at 150' above sea level.
48gr-2680fps
49gr-2720fps
50gr-2750fps
51gr-2830fps - flat primers bolt lift was normal.

brass was winchester, federal primers
 
#96
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Huge jump between 50 and 51 gr. I wouldn't have expected that. What is the col and how far from the lands? Any accurate?

I'll be taking my project .308 out tomorrow and see if the bedding helped anything or not. A couple more things and I'll be doing some testing as well. Numbers like the ones you guys are posting are killing me! It appears that this combination is taking the .308 up an order of magnitude.
 
#97
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

That's interesting. I got a smaller increase from 49-50, and a big increase from 50-51 too.

20.5" bbl
Win Brass
CCI 200
208 AMax, moly'd
3.00" OAL
RL-17
46 gr - 2380 fps
47 gr - 2430 fps
48 gr - 2480 fps
49 gr - 2530 fps
50 gr - 2570 fps
51 gr - 2645 fps
 
#98
Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Shane,

His velocities have to be because of that 30" barrel (as well as the RE-17 qualities). As far as what I've tested, I've gotten incredible velocities too. I've noted when I get too high, especially notable with sporter weight barrels, is the accuracy goes to crap. Back it down and it picks back up again. That's the burn retardant working in the powder. It's the best I've seen of any powder.
 
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