308 Winchester AR Only

[OkieMike]

Using sierra 155s I have Ar Comp and Varget. GRT showing Varget would be a little less pressure and more velocity. Any idea where to start with a gas gun? Looking at 45ish gr of Varget and 43ish gr of AR COMP.

What brass? Because there's a world of difference between Lake City and Winchester brass.

For Varget, Hodgdon's .308 Service Rifle data shows a starting load of 43.0 and 44.0 max charge.

IME gas guns are just different and won't handle the same charges as your bolt guns. The service rifle data is geared more toward the M1 and M14 rifles... But probably a good place to start with an AR-10/.308

Can't help you with AR-Comp. But I bet someone else can chime in.

Mike

 

[jLorenzo]

What brass? Because there's a world of difference between Lake City and Winchester brass.

For Varget, Hodgdon's .308 Service Rifle data shows a starting load of 43.0 and 44.0 max charge.

IME gas guns are just different and won't handle the same charges as your bolt guns. The service rifle data is geared more toward the M1 and M14 rifles... But probably a good place to start with an AR-10/.308

Can't help you with AR-Comp. But I bet someone else can chime in.

Mike

Federal brass

 

[jLorenzo]

I think 45gr Varget is top end; wouldn't start there. Not sure if that's what you meant. I topped out at 43.5gr in LC brass as previously mentioned. Varget is kinda slow honestly. I tried StaBall Match yesterday. 47gr was the max I could fit in a case. Book max is 48.7(C)

I have loaded 46-47 with 155s in a bolt gun figured 45 would be ok, maybe I'll start lower

 

[knuckleballz]

I will have to check my loads in my book. Ar comp does much better with lighter bullets like the 155 than heavier bullets.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I think 45gr Varget is top end; wouldn't start there. Not sure if that's what you meant. I topped out at 43.5gr in LC brass as previously mentioned. Varget is kinda slow honestly. I tried StaBall Match yesterday. 47gr was the max I could fit in a case. Book max is 48.7(C)

Are you shooting that staball match load in a gas gun? What bullet, and group size? I've got a few pounds of the staball match that I'd like to try under 175-178 gr a-max's or eldm's.

 

[r.tenorio671]

Using sierra 155s I have Ar Comp and Varget. GRT showing Varget would be a little less pressure and more velocity. Any idea where to start with a gas gun? Looking at 45ish gr of Varget and 43ish gr of AR COMP.

...some pressure test results I obtained. Brass was assorted year LC. Environment is tropical island, avg year round temp ~85F, Relative humidity ranges from 65-80% during daylight hours to 85-100% at night. AR-10 build w/16" CLGS tube & SLR AGB, standard carbine buffer system. YMMV

 

[Bevo]

.308 16" 1:11.25 (Seekins)
125gr Speer TNT
Starline SRP brass
CCI 450
50.0gr 8208 XBR
3030 fps

Very accurate, but I don't measure groups with this gun as it wears a thermal 100% of the time. Extremely effective on hogs and yotes.

 

[jLorenzo]

.308 16" 1:11.25 (Seekins)
125gr Speer TNT
Starline SRP brass
CCI 450
50.0gr 8208 XBR
3030 fps

Very accurate, but I don't measure groups with this gun as it wears a thermal 100% of the time. Extremely effective on hogs and yotes.

I like the sound of that.

 

[jLorenzo]

Has anyone used Tac with 150-155 gr stuff? Looks like I might get more velocity with Varget but not sure.

 

[Bevo]

Has anyone used Tac with 150-155 gr stuff? Looks like I might get more velocity with Varget but not sure.

These 5-shot groups are from a 16” bolt gun. 1:11 twist.

Peterson SRP, CCI450, Berger 155 VLD, Ramshot TAC

Grains - Avg FPS, SD, ES

44.4 - 2654, 10.6, 26.5
44.7 - 2677, 13.7, 42.0
45.0 - 2687, 10.5, 26.0
45.3 - 2704, 9.1, 25.0
45.6 - 2733, 1.7, 4.0, (4 shot group)

All the groups were sub-MOA but the first one was one hole.

Factory Federal GM 155gr SMK ran at 2600 fps from the same barrel.

 

[357Max]

These 5-shot groups are from a 16” bolt gun. 1:11 twist.

Peterson SRP, CCI450, Berger 155 VLD, Ramshot TAC

Grains - Avg FPS, SD, ES

44.4 - 2654, 10.6, 26.5
44.7 - 2677, 13.7, 42.0
45.0 - 2687, 10.5, 26.0
45.3 - 2704, 9.1, 25.0
45.6 - 2733, 1.7, 4.0, (4 shot group)

All the groups were sub-MOA but the first one was one hole.

Factory Federal GM 155gr SMK ran at 2600 fps from the same barrel.

Any pressure signs on the top load??

 

[Bevo]

Any pressure signs on the top load??

Nope. I’m gonna load some more at the low end and top end and see if results are reproduced. Shot this last week.

 

[WestTN2288]

Has anyone used Tac with 150-155 gr stuff? Looks like I might get more velocity with Varget but not sure.

I use 45.5 in LC brass with 155 eldm’s. It’s my go to powder with that weight bullet actually

 

[357Max]

Nope. I’m gonna load some more at the low end and top end and see if results are reproduced. Shot this last week.

Just finished my 16" 8T Poor-arue build and have some 155TMK's on the way. Was already thinking Tac. Hopefully I'll make it to the range next weekend. Might try some 174 VT's for kicks

 

[jLorenzo]

I use 45.5 in LC brass with 155 eldm’s. It’s my go to powder with that weight bullet actually

Gas gun? How is the brass?

 

[BCP]

These 5-shot groups are from a 16” bolt gun. 1:11 twist.

Peterson SRP, CCI450, Berger 155 VLD, Ramshot TAC

Grains - Avg FPS, SD, ES

44.4 - 2654, 10.6, 26.5
44.7 - 2677, 13.7, 42.0
45.0 - 2687, 10.5, 26.0
45.3 - 2704, 9.1, 25.0
45.6 - 2733, 1.7, 4.0, (4 shot group)

All the groups were sub-MOA but the first one was one hole.

Factory Federal GM 155gr SMK ran at 2600 fps from the same barrel.

I use 42.5gr with 147 FMJ bullets and LC brass in my AR10 it's great for plinking about 2550-2600fps from a 16". You can use it in 30-06 too it loads very much like IMR4895.

 

[WestTN2288]

Gas gun? How is the brass?

Yes, brass is fine

 

[jLorenzo]

I bought some Hornady 150gr fmjs, gonna attempt to get something shooting with Varget. Just returned a Rainier match barrel that shot like shit, bought a BA on sale for 120$ on memorial day just to try before I buy something truly expensive. Shot 1.3-1.5 moa with Nosler 175s and Varget 42.5gr. Alot better than the 380$ Rainier ironically. Gas port was way cleaner on the BA too. Mustve lucked out because I dont really like BA barrels. Just loaded up to get the gun broken in. I'll be happy if I can get the fmjs to do that consistently.

 

[jLorenzo]

Took two loads with Hornady 150 fmjs w/ cannelure (loaded long, case not touching cannelure) two charges of Varget. 46 and 46.2, shot just under 3 MOA tried a shorter seating depth as well, didn't make much difference. Got them to 2800 though with a 18" barrel, super sonic past 1k. Wouldn't go any higher charge wise. Brass looks good but primers were just barely starting to flatten @46.2.

I had some Hornady 155 bthps laying around, loaded some of those @ 45.2 Varget, mag length. Shot well, 2725 out of the 18". I have some 155 SMKs and more Hornadys I am going to try.

I am hoping to get the 150 fmjs down to around 1.5 moa because they are cheap and nice to shoot recoil wise. I might try Tac or AR Comp next. Also run a seating depth test.

Side note, AR10 barrels get hot fast. I spent a lot of time waiting for it to cool.

Happy with the 120$ memorial day sale Ballistic Advantage so far.

 

[jLorenzo]

Confirmed the Hornady 155s, shot better than the 155 SMKs which seems odd but I won't complain.

 

[jLorenzo]

I think IMR 4895 is going to do the trick for the 150 FMJs. Took it from 3 to 2 moa and gave a nice little bump in velocity. 2819 out of a 18". Hopefully I can tune it down a little more but for plinking at 21c per bullet this will work for me.

 

[jLorenzo]

How would you guys size once fired LC bought online? Decap and check shoulder measurement compared to brass fired in your gun?

 

[357Max]

How would you guys size once fired LC bought online? Decap and check shoulder measurement compared to brass fired in your gun?

Yep and those will probably need the crimp removed from the primer pocket. FL size and bump shoulder back .002-.004 from fired brass dimension. I bump less for bolt guns.

 

[Buckeye Chuck]

With lake city brass I had to go with a small base sizer die because my FL die would not get the brass to Sami specs and prevented the bolt from going into battery on my M1a. Factory ammo was no problem. Lesson learned the hard way.

 

[Old Corps 8541]

How would you guys size once fired LC bought online? Decap and check shoulder measurement compared to brass fired in your gun?

Some LC brass you can get online was fired from M-60 /M-249's which just means that the 308 brass will have been fired in not so very tight chambers.
Back when I was feeding an M1A I got some 308 brass and it took two attempts to finally get them FL resized. I would suggest looking O/L for ; LCLR or any factory brass , watch the classifieds for 1x 308 brass

 

[NCHillbilly]

Some LC brass you can get online was fired from M-60 /M-249's which just means that the 308 brass will have been fired in not so very tight chambers.
Back when I was feeding an M1A I got some 308 brass and it took two attempts to finally get them FL resized. I would suggest looking O/L for ; LCLR or any factory brass , watch the classifieds for 1x 308 brass

^^^^^^^
Had the same thing happen to me. You can tell which ones are blown out when you size them. You practically have to stand on the press handle to size them. Set those aside, because you'll probably only get one firing out of them before they start splitting.

 

[JimmyT]

Looking for Hide members that have had great results pushing bullets in the 130-155 grain range out of 16" barrels. I know the easy button is the 175 grain SMK, but don't like throwing them out at barely 2400 FPS from a supressed 16" barrel (DDV5V3)... I eventually want to SBR the rifle with supressor to harvest medium bodied game, and have a supressed weapon that dosn't look like it came from Monty Python.... any info willl be appreciated.

 

[Wizard1183]

Looking for Hide members that have had great results pushing bullets in the 130-155 grain range out of 16" barrels. I know the easy button is the 175 grain SMK, but don't like throwing them out at barely 2400 FPS from a supressed 16" barrel (DDV5V3)... I eventually want to SBR the rifle with supressor to harvest medium bodied game, and have a supressed weapon that dosn't look like it came from Monty Python.... any info willl be appreciated.

Running 168gr out of a 16” not suppressed 2425-2440 around optimum charge. So suppressed you should be running faster. And being 130-155, you should be pushing around 2600+. I hit 2505 running 43.2 gr 168gr but I don’t need to go that far into max

 

[BCP]

Looking for Hide members that have had great results pushing bullets in the 130-155 grain range out of 16" barrels. I know the easy button is the 175 grain SMK, but don't like throwing them out at barely 2400 FPS from a supressed 16" barrel (DDV5V3)... I eventually want to SBR the rifle with supressor to harvest medium bodied game, and have a supressed weapon that dosn't look like it came from Monty Python.... any info willl be appreciated.

I shoot lots of 42.5gr TAC with 150gr bullets and military brass out of my 308 AR10 it's a good duplicate of military fmj type ammo.

 

[JimmyT]

those are some good speeds out of a 16"tube... now I has goals

 

[JimmyT]

Running 168gr out of a 16” not suppressed 2425-2440 around optimum charge. So suppressed you should be running faster. And being 130-155, you should be pushing around 2600+. I hit 2505 running 43.2 gr 168gr but I don’t need to go that far into max

sounds like a very spicy load...

 

[BCP]

Winchester NATO 147gr white box was like 2550fps out of my 16" AR10 so getting 2700 would be hot.

 

[Wizard1183]

sounds like a very spicy load...

Yea too spicy. Calmed it down. 41-5-41.8 is ideal at least up to 100yrds. Maybe next yr I’ll test out further and see

 

[GhostFace]

Is anyone having luck with StaBall Match and 175s/178s ?

 

[357Max]

Is anyone having luck with StaBall Match and 175s/178s ?

Tried in an 18" AR. The Match didn't start coming together till the loads got warm & the Staball Match gets testy up near the top end. Good to Whoa in .3gr. Sim to the lot of 8208 I've got. I like RL15.5 or Varget a lot better for 175 - 178

 

[TexasHaag]

Just built an AR-10 in .308, 20" Wilson Combat barrel suppressed and thermal only. I'm shooting Hornady 178 ELD-X and 178 BTHP mainly for hogs here in Texas. I haven't measured the velocity yet but I expect it's around 2400-2500. I've been using the same loads in my M1A.
I scrolled a couple pages and didn't see anyone using BLC-2 powder, any particular reason?

20" Wilson Combat 1:10" twist
Starline brass
CCI #34 primer
43gr BLC-2
178gr ELD-X

 

[Wizard1183]

Just built an AR-10 in .308, 20" Wilson Combat barrel suppressed and thermal only. I'm shooting Hornady 178 ELD-X and 178 BTHP mainly for hogs here in Texas. I haven't measured the velocity yet but I expect it's around 2400-2500. I've been using the same loads in my M1A.
I scrolled a couple pages and didn't see anyone using BLC-2 powder, any particular reason?

20" Wilson Combat 1:10" twist
Starline brass
CCI #34 primer
43gr BLC-2
178gr ELD-X

Most prefer extruded but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better. Just a preference. With a 20” bbl you should be around 2500-2550.

 

[GhostFace]

Tried in an 18" AR. The Match didn't start coming together till the loads got warm & the Staball Match gets testy up near the top end. Good to Whoa in .3gr. Sim to the lot of 8208 I've got. I like RL15.5 or Varget a lot better for 175 - 178

Where did you end up at? What brass were you using? I just got a keg of this ...

 

[Wizard1183]

Where did you end up at? What brass were you using? I just got a keg of this ...

Can’t go wrong varget. I just find 4064 is a tried and true. 30+lbs and mixed it all up and repackaged. Now it’s consistent without worry of lot change

 

[GhostFace]

I know the virtues of varget and other powders but I've moved to ball powders in my semiautomatics because I've grown tired of hand weighing charges. And no I'm not buying one of those digital powder dispensers. I still have 2 kegs of AA2520 and my plan is to move to StaBall Match if I can get it to shoot decent enough.

 

[GhostFace]

I've been shooting AA2520 at 1000 yards with no real issues. Yes it's temp sensitive, yes it's not as accurate as Varget or 4064 at 1000 yards. But I don't have to weigh each charge and I can still hit what I'm aiming at. So it works for me.

The questions still stands to the guy that was using StaBall match. What charge did you end up at? What brass were you using?

 

[357Max]

I've been shooting AA2520 at 1000 yards with no real issues. Yes it's temp sensitive, yes it's not as accurate as Varget or 4064 at 1000 yards. But I don't have to weigh each charge and I can still hit what I'm aiming at. So it works for me.

The questions still stands to the guy that was using StaBall match. What charge did you end up at? What brass were you using?

Just got back from the range & looked up what I'd tried in the AR.
18" Proof CF 11T, rifle length gas, SLR adj block, A5 tube, Slash heavy buffer with JP RL spring, Full mass BCG

Staball Match
Black Hills stamped LRP Brass
cci #34
168smk @2.800
45.6 / 2582 SD 7.8 Good SD shot like crap
46.0 / 2599 SD 20.4 Crap
46.4 / 2612 SD 25.5 Better
46.8 / 2664 SD 15 This shot the best but left a definitive ejector stamp.

For ref. The older White Box FGMM 168's shoot 2620 & Nwer Brown/Gold box are 2530 from this barrel.

176 A-tip @ 2.860 with Match
25.6 Don't do this. It seemed reasonable based on book loads for 175-178, but no. To Hot! 2636 SD 14.2 Brass 1 & done.

Bolt Gun 26" 10T
177 smk @ 2.882 I went 44.1 - 45.3 & 45.0 shot the best 2730 SD 1.7
168 TMK @ 2.917 44.7 - 45.9 & again 45.0 shot the best 2765 SD 2.4

 

[GhostFace]

Thank you sir...

 

[TexasHaag]

Most prefer extruded but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better. Just a preference. With a 20” bbl you should be around 2500-2550.

Agreed, extruded powders are more popular than ball... but I prefer ball because it meters much more accurately. I keep the velocity on the slow side to lessen barrel wear... Thanks

 

[Wizard1183]

I know the virtues of varget and other powders but I've moved to ball powders in my semiautomatics because I've grown tired of hand weighing charges. And no I'm not buying one of those digital powder dispensers. I still have 2 kegs of AA2520 and my plan is to move to StaBall Match if I can get it to shoot decent enough.

Agreed, extruded powders are more popular than ball... but I prefer ball because it meters much more accurately. I keep the velocity on the slow side to lessen barrel wear... Thanks

Definitely meters well. Volumetrically, impossible to measure consistently with extruded unless you’re dumping a certain amount and trickling remainder to hit weight

 

[TexasHaag]

I've loaded a bunch of BL-C2 in 308 but stopped because it's temp sensitive, not real accurate, and didn't provide anything remarkable in terms of velocity. It's best qualities are it's availability because no one wants to buy it. I would say if you wanted to load 147 grain pull downs for 3MOA Blast-o-matic stuff, go for it. I would recommend TAC over BL-C2. Better velocities and accuracy. Mayyyybe slightly less temp sensitive.

I use BLC-2 exclusively in my M1A 7.62-51 with a 178gr BTHP. I shoot regularly out to 600yrd with no real issues with accuracy. I shoot the same load in my gas gun 20" barrel 1-10 twist. The subject of temp sensitivity is a debatable subject IMO.

 

[padom]

I use BLC-2 exclusively in my M1A 7.62-51 with a 178gr BTHP. I shoot regularly out to 600yrd with no real issues with accuracy. I shoot the same load in my gas gun 20" barrel 1-10 twist. The subject of temp sensitivity is a debatable subject IMO.

While you can have your own opinion... there is nothing debatable about temp sensitivity and temp sensitive powders... Especially when shooting at distance. Especially powders like BLC-2, CFE22, and Lever that have a 1.7fps per degree F change... My recent testing for CFE223 posted in the 6 ARC thread was 2 fps per degree F temp change.

Thats a HUGE swing shooting a load in 85-90F vs 30-40F... Knowing your temp change for your load is different than saying temp sensitivity is debatable because I've tested it heavily and its very real and non-debatable.

 

[PusherX11]

Can’t go wrong varget. I just find 4064 is a tried and true. 30+lbs and mixed it all up and repackaged. Now it’s consistent without worry of lot change

When mixing your lots, what do you use to mix in?

 

[Wizard1183]

5gallon bucket

 

[TexasHaag]

While you can have your own opinion... there is nothing debatable about temp sensitivity and temp sensitive powders... Especially when shooting at distance. Especially powders like BLC-2, CFE22, and Lever that have a 1.7fps per degree F change... My recent testing for CFE223 posted in the 6 ARC thread was 2 fps per degree F temp change.

Thats a HUGE swing shooting a load in 85-90F vs 30-40F... Knowing your temp change for your load is different than saying temp sensitivity is debatable because I've tested it heavily and its very real and non-debatable.

What is the base temperature you're comparing the fps change from?