.308Win.Ackley Improved

[Jscb1b]

I understand. Got to be ready for the thugs to riot. But if you change your mind I get firsts.

 

[Bender]

Wtf. Man. Should have let him wall-o-text into his war stories about he was in special forces attached ROTC and what martial arts he prefers? What a wet blanket. He was just getting started.......

 

[Jscb1b]

They have to be improved to count.

 

[thejeep]

I have been agonizing over my new build for the last several hours. And have settled on .308ARI. What is this you say? It’s the .308 ackley really improved win. It is awesome!
Like all AI’s I can shoot factory ammo, in this case say I see a water Buffalo at 1380yards. I throw in a standard .308 and lob that sucker out there. Bang flop! Just like that.
But then when I eject. Bam! A perfectly loaded 6.5cm comes out!

Best of all it has a internal magazine!
For the win!

 

[Powder_Burns]

Is this still available?

 

[thejeep]

that a Harris in the background?

Good bit of wear on the knees.

 

[Pat Jennings]

Have followed with some interest talk about .308 Ackley Improved. There is little to no data concerning this round except for those [of us] who are actively shooting this round, or who are seriously looking for this 'new round'. In his books Ackley did NOT show an improved chambering for this round; I know, because I have both of his books in my shooting library; nowhere is that shown. This may well be because the .308 Win. round was a relatively late developing round [starting in WWII], its parent case being the 300Savage a much older round. That said, the .308Win. round is a very much appreciably undervalued underdeveloped round, in its own right. The availability of technology edge ...primers, brass, heads, and propellants simply was not around at the time the round was stood up. Consequently all the "wars" about it or a 6.5Creed, 6mmARC, 6.8 Grendel...etc., are wars fought with old terms over old technologies, and the ones waging them are basically trying to compare apples to oranges. Conclusions drawn from comparisons will inevitably be incorrect.
The .308Win.-A/I round is the logical end state expression of what the .308Win. round is capable of and is a more than credible 1000 yard+ ELR round. Some one posting that the Ackley Improved was a waste of time or money? I do not know if he is basing that judgment on empirical knowledge or some vague personal animus grounded in an uninformed opinion? Bruce Artus shooting in Pueblo Colorado holds a record for Extended Long Range shooting with the .308Ackley Improved for gong shooting at 3,120 yards set with an AI round capped with a 220grn. Sierra MatchKing. Artus also has the longest witnessed single shot live animal kill set at 2,632 yards, same round.
For the record, I shoot a .308Win.Ackley Improved rifle, built on a MacMillan A-4 stock, Savage 112 Precision Single Shot Target short action married to a 30" Bartlein 5R heavy Palma barrel with a full progressively ported brake timed to the riflings. The rifle was shot in and then broken down and the action, receiver, and the barrel was molten salt nitride treated. The scope is the SWFA-S/S 12X 42 fixed power scope [I prefer scopes with as few to no moving parts as possible for repeated accuracy]. The SS performs every bit as good [image clear bright crisp and contrasty rain snow, low light fog, or shine] as the currently high priced spreads. The object here is to shoot and not brag about the money you spent on the diamond settings in your wedding ring. If you are seriously contemplating going the .308Win. A/I you will NOT get there in a standard 24" barrel, and 20" barrels are simply laughable; you are going to have to build your rifle. I drive a 200grn. Berger Hybrid; when the barrel was married to the receiver I had it throated for this round; the chamber was cut to "the" smallest dimensions 2.0067" with a "GO" of 1.6664", gages supplied by Pacific Tool and Die. Consequently in "the forming stages" for brass all my necks are shaved to .0135"; normal casing thickness of .308Win. Lapua is .0155. ALL brass in annealed after every firing; you want a soft neck that releases cleanly and evenly that will make a good efficient gas tight seal with the 40deg. shoulder. Additionally before seating ALL necks are graphited with laboratoy grade graphite [ ease of seating, die-electric electrolysis protection] Along the way, you are going to have to develop your own dies; mine came from John Whittington, for decapping and sizing only. I use Wilson Co-Ax dies for seating exclusively. The straightness in run-out is very critical; no other seating die currently available comes even remotely close to the Wilson Co-Ax. You are going to have to decide on brass; not all brass is created equal. I shoot exclusively .308 Lapua Palma brass. If you are going to go this route, go there. Case weights for Lapua are extremely consistent. Standard .308 brass with standard large rifle primer pockets will not stand up to stresses; the primer cups are stretchy. The .308 Lapua Palma has a small rifle primer pocket and is ~ly half as large as the standard pocket. This translates into far more brass in the head which makes for a greater tighter grip on the primer; currently I am on the 6th iteration of brass and the primers are very nearly as tight to seat as they were first from the factory; you want tight primers. Additionally a photomicrograph of primer burn of a standard large rifle primer shows a burn that resembles a badly decorated Christmas tree; a micrograph of a magnum small rifle primer shows an almost "columnar" burn straight up through the core of propellant. To get the power and the even burn and pressure build up you need that character of burn.
As far as propellants, this is where the rub comes in. Standard ball propellants BLC-2, Win. 748, Acc.2460 are good but they simply will not give you the power down the bore to get velocities up, they're good for M14, M40, M110...etc., but that don't get it here!!!!. None of the large cut sticks work well at all, not developing in a slow burn that gives you the velocity you want without really developing dangerously high chamber and case pressures. What is wanted is a double based super short cut stick propellant specifically designed fo medium capacity cases that will achieve maximum total burn-out in 75% of barrel length not to exceed 87.5% of barrel length. Currently, I use Alliant Re17; Alliant is a Swiss based company and their propellant is very high quality and reasonmably priced. I drive a 200grn. Berger hybrid for an E/MV[Exit Muzzle Velocity] of 2740fps. [Ohler three gate chronograph with four separate runs and an average of 2740fps with a MAD of 3fps; I could drive it higher, but to what point?
The point to long range and extended long range is not how fast the bullet leaves the muzzle; the point is where down range does the bullet go into a transition event and how far?? down range and how large is its subsonic floor ofsub-sonic transition stability. That is the question that the rifleman has to answer; how fast is fast enough?
This Ackley Improved round is still supersonic at 1400 yards--1135fps; at 1760 yards it is stable subsonic at 972fps and does not go through its floor until about 2200 yards at 870fps. From 1400 yards to 2200 yards [~ly 800 yards] this bullet is stable. Not a 7mm Rem.Mag, a 6.5 Cred or 6mmARC even begins to approach this. The floor of sub-sonic stability for realistically accurate ballistic firing solutions for a .30 caliber round is 870fps. This is so because short fat stubby bullets are inherently more stable than long thin bullets; this is not a matter of opinion but fact. The Aussies routinely shoot 2000 yards [with accuracy in the wind] with a straight .308Win. chambering. I do NOT shoot at less than 500 yards with this rifle; that is its starting zero. That would be a waste of "time and money". Ignore comments about "waste of time and money"; the context in which they are made is unknown and generally the people making them do not know what they do not know. In a future posting I will send pics of brass and the weapon; I am happy to answer any questions.

Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi
ChiefBull

Good article shipmate, GMC retired.

 

[918v]

I get 2590 with the 200.20x out of a 24” 308 using N550. I took it up to 2640 but best accuracy was at 2590. So 2740 out of a 30” is not worth the trouble.

 

[502Chevelle]

No stupid! It’s not a 30” barrel! He shoots long barrels for more velocity. Didn’t you waste part of your life reading all of the bullshit from the last four pages. Fucking wake up people and get with the program! If you need a longer barrel, send me your rifle, and I can tig weld a custom barrel extension so you can get more length, and thus more velocity. The best part is, we can do a gain twist to make it more accurate while we are at it. If your barrel is a 10 or even an 11 twist, we tig a section of 9 twist to the front. Presto, more velocity AND accuracy. I take PP but only FnF or you can pay the fees. Call me.....

 

[918v]

No I didn’t waste my time reading the last 4 pages. Maybe I’ll rephrase my thoughts so you can understand:

I can get the same velocity out of a standard 308 as he can out of his AI version and the extra 100 FPS he gets out of his 30” barrel doesn’t impress me.

 

[LeftyJason]

No I didn’t waste my time reading the last 4 pages. Maybe I’ll rephrase my thoughts so you can understand:

I can get the same velocity out of a standard 308 as he can out of his AI version and the extra 100 FPS he gets out of his 30” barrel doesn’t impress me.

You should read the whole thing. Short history.

Started in rifles I think. OP thought people were being mean and demanded moderation. A moderator moved the thread to the Bear Pit. Added to the Legendary Thread on post 53. It is worth the time.

 

[918v]

I apologize for my outburst.

 

[502Chevelle]

It’s all good! . But seriously, I can tig up your barrel extension. Will be awesome I promise!

 

[Bender]

Have followed with some interest talk about .308 Ackley Improved. There is little to no data concerning this round except for those [of us] who are actively shooting this round, or who are seriously looking for this 'new round'. In his books Ackley did NOT show an improved chambering for this round; I know, because I have both of his books in my shooting library; nowhere is that shown. This may well be because the .308 Win. round was a relatively late developing round [starting in WWII], its parent case being the 300Savage a much older round. That said, the .308Win. round is a very much appreciably undervalued underdeveloped round, in its own right. The availability of technology edge ...primers, brass, heads, and propellants simply was not around at the time the round was stood up. Consequently all the "wars" about it or a 6.5Creed, 6mmARC, 6.8 Grendel...etc., are wars fought with old terms over old technologies, and the ones waging them are basically trying to compare apples to oranges. Conclusions drawn from comparisons will inevitably be incorrect.
The .308Win.-A/I round is the logical end state expression of what the .308Win. round is capable of and is a more than credible 1000 yard+ ELR round. Some one posting that the Ackley Improved was a waste of time or money? I do not know if he is basing that judgment on empirical knowledge or some vague personal animus grounded in an uninformed opinion? Bruce Artus shooting in Pueblo Colorado holds a record for Extended Long Range shooting with the .308Ackley Improved for gong shooting at 3,120 yards set with an AI round capped with a 220grn. Sierra MatchKing. Artus also has the longest witnessed single shot live animal kill set at 2,632 yards, same round.
For the record, I shoot a .308Win.Ackley Improved rifle, built on a MacMillan A-4 stock, Savage 112 Precision Single Shot Target short action married to a 30" Bartlein 5R heavy Palma barrel with a full progressively ported brake timed to the riflings. The rifle was shot in and then broken down and the action, receiver, and the barrel was molten salt nitride treated. The scope is the SWFA-S/S 12X 42 fixed power scope [I prefer scopes with as few to no moving parts as possible for repeated accuracy]. The SS performs every bit as good [image clear bright crisp and contrasty rain snow, low light fog, or shine] as the currently high priced spreads. The object here is to shoot and not brag about the money you spent on the diamond settings in your wedding ring. If you are seriously contemplating going the .308Win. A/I you will NOT get there in a standard 24" barrel, and 20" barrels are simply laughable; you are going to have to build your rifle. I drive a 200grn. Berger Hybrid; when the barrel was married to the receiver I had it throated for this round; the chamber was cut to "the" smallest dimensions 2.0067" with a "GO" of 1.6664", gages supplied by Pacific Tool and Die. Consequently in "the forming stages" for brass all my necks are shaved to .0135"; normal casing thickness of .308Win. Lapua is .0155. ALL brass in annealed after every firing; you want a soft neck that releases cleanly and evenly that will make a good efficient gas tight seal with the 40deg. shoulder. Additionally before seating ALL necks are graphited with laboratoy grade graphite [ ease of seating, die-electric electrolysis protection] Along the way, you are going to have to develop your own dies; mine came from John Whittington, for decapping and sizing only. I use Wilson Co-Ax dies for seating exclusively. The straightness in run-out is very critical; no other seating die currently available comes even remotely close to the Wilson Co-Ax. You are going to have to decide on brass; not all brass is created equal. I shoot exclusively .308 Lapua Palma brass. If you are going to go this route, go there. Case weights for Lapua are extremely consistent. Standard .308 brass with standard large rifle primer pockets will not stand up to stresses; the primer cups are stretchy. The .308 Lapua Palma has a small rifle primer pocket and is ~ly half as large as the standard pocket. This translates into far more brass in the head which makes for a greater tighter grip on the primer; currently I am on the 6th iteration of brass and the primers are very nearly as tight to seat as they were first from the factory; you want tight primers. Additionally a photomicrograph of primer burn of a standard large rifle primer shows a burn that resembles a badly decorated Christmas tree; a micrograph of a magnum small rifle primer shows an almost "columnar" burn straight up through the core of propellant. To get the power and the even burn and pressure build up you need that character of burn.
As far as propellants, this is where the rub comes in. Standard ball propellants BLC-2, Win. 748, Acc.2460 are good but they simply will not give you the power down the bore to get velocities up, they're good for M14, M40, M110...etc., but that don't get it here!!!!. None of the large cut sticks work well at all, not developing in a slow burn that gives you the velocity you want without really developing dangerously high chamber and case pressures. What is wanted is a double based super short cut stick propellant specifically designed fo medium capacity cases that will achieve maximum total burn-out in 75% of barrel length not to exceed 87.5% of barrel length. Currently, I use Alliant Re17; Alliant is a Swiss based company and their propellant is very high quality and reasonmably priced. I drive a 200grn. Berger hybrid for an E/MV[Exit Muzzle Velocity] of 2740fps. [Ohler three gate chronograph with four separate runs and an average of 2740fps with a MAD of 3fps; I could drive it higher, but to what point?
The point to long range and extended long range is not how fast the bullet leaves the muzzle; the point is where down range does the bullet go into a transition event and how far?? down range and how large is its subsonic floor ofsub-sonic transition stability. That is the question that the rifleman has to answer; how fast is fast enough?
This Ackley Improved round is still supersonic at 1400 yards--1135fps; at 1760 yards it is stable subsonic at 972fps and does not go through its floor until about 2200 yards at 870fps. From 1400 yards to 2200 yards [~ly 800 yards] this bullet is stable. Not a 7mm Rem.Mag, a 6.5 Cred or 6mmARC even begins to approach this. The floor of sub-sonic stability for realistically accurate ballistic firing solutions for a .30 caliber round is 870fps. This is so because short fat stubby bullets are inherently more stable than long thin bullets; this is not a matter of opinion but fact. The Aussies routinely shoot 2000 yards [with accuracy in the wind] with a straight .308Win. chambering. I do NOT shoot at less than 500 yards with this rifle; that is its starting zero. That would be a waste of "time and money". Ignore comments about "waste of time and money"; the context in which they are made is unknown and generally the people making them do not know what they do not know. In a future posting I will send pics of brass and the weapon; I am happy to answer any questions.

Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi
ChiefBull

 

[wildcats]

You guys sure know how to make a guy feel welcomed.....

 

[Yasherka]

Damn, what were you searching for that resurrected this abortion?

 

[camocorvette]

Damn, what were you searching for that resurrected this abortion?

I don't know what he was; but I just read through all of it...

I can't believe I didn't see this.

 

[hlee]

"Alexa, what is a dumpster fire?"

"Hmm, let me look that up for you..."

 

[Bender]

Oh no guys,Long Range hunting is here to stay, inspite of outrage. The ones doing it are actually really riflemen who know their platforms.
I am not doing a downer on any chambering; it's all good. I think that if one reads critically what I've said here, that I am NOT recommending this scheme for barre;ls that are 24". The fashion today is to go to short barrels; I've got my opionions on that but they're my opinions and not really germane to this discussion, the point here being that in consideration of this chambering short barrels are simply not realistic. and you will not achieve the advantages of the technology edge; moreover, you run the risk of creating a dangerous situation as some opined earlier, not a good thing. as one pout in .308Win. is an ideal cartridge, for them as it is for me. It is efficient. and at a 180grns. of head the comparative ball;istics of a 30/06 ther parent case and the .308Win. are almost identical. Long Range hunting is identical to Sniper warfare: the rifleman gets to know his query, he gets to know its movements, its habits of movement, the times it moves most and is most exposed; he knows his range, his knows his grades, his gradient winds and the comps he's goi8ng to havr to use to mitigate wind and he's goping to have to maker good wind calls based on that. Any criticism of that is simply specious and not the least bit reasonably critical. The reply: "...I don't give a f**** about your medals..." is simply bad manners and shows not the least bit of class. Medals? I cited that simply as historical background in my experience with the .308Win. round; I am not a johnny come lately digital commando wannabe' Sniper or makeabelieve' SWAT shooter. If you want to disregard that I'm okay with that; the lack of civility is enough for me to know that the one making that remark is really not worth talking to about anyhing 'critical'. Again, oh no; it's all good [the rounds]; some like Chevies, some like Fords. They all run and run well; the secret to any of them is how well you develop them, take care of them, and know their maximum capacities.
I enterd the forum with a good bit of writing on the technical aspects [a good bit drab ad dreary in a post literate age where people want to see a picture instead of reading and thinking, I get it]; somebody can tell me "...I know a bit about ballistics..."? I really don't know what that means. The layout here of information was meant to help. the opinion on long barrels is "almost" correct. But then, "alomst" only counts in grenades, atom bombs, and horse shoes. For a .308Win. 30" is an ideal length; you'll have to to 34" before you start to degrade. A 26" barrel is extremely good for the field.
Exchanges such as this has degraded into really do a disservice to this web-site and really compromise its credibility as a forum where one cn exchange ideas and information, and engage 'critical' discussion. Not crying here simply telling your moderator here as a 'critical observer' you had better clean up your; you simply are not believable as a good technical site for information or discussion. Done here; I'll simply leave it at that.

Breaking Away to port
Follow my wake and take station if you are capable
Anchor'sAweigh/SemperFi
ChiefBull

 

[xsn10s]

How about a 308 Creedmoor?

 

[502Chevelle]

If you shoot a 308 in Creedmoor NC, does that make it a 308 Creedmoor? Interesting minds want to know.

 

[camotoe]

on a side note.............

anyone got a set of 308ai dies they would sell

 

[LeftyJason]

@camotoe might want to delete. Wtb ads not allowed here. Only in PX with supporter status.

 

[rtB]

I might be thinking he was a kiddin.

Besides, no one would ever sell their 308ai dies.

 

[Makinchips208]

Almost time for the annual resurrection of this thread….

 

[lash]

Only if there is a way to make people read the whole thing over again…

 

[camotoe]

He sounds vaccinated...