338 Norma Magnum

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could be the cat's ass.......hope it is.
However, one word would keep me from owning one.........UNTIL they get some brass available besides NORMA.
I will stick w/ .338LM.
Thanks..................IMHO, and FWIW. </div></div>

TS,
One thing to remember.
The brass was built to have very specific web strength, flow rate, thickness tolorances, etc.. all to the designers (Jimmie Sloan) specs and final approval.
I for one am not a very big fan of Norma brass nor the house that is loading it. The reloaded brass has been compared to Lapua. So far mine has acted just fine, tho I haven't reloaded the brass 16 times yet......yet.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Hi Tom;
I think somewhere in Norma's future I hear they have a 300 Norma des for the 240 and a .375 cal as well, I will be greatful when they bring the other two out into the light for after 8 years of building brass by the hand,its kind of nice to pick a piece of it up ready made.
This gives me more time to improve on trying to build a better rifle for Lord knows I need the help in that department.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Tom

Yep the Hulk is a fine cartridge, and you handle it pretty well too. This looks like a shortcut way of getting to the same point. If only Lapua made brass for it; I too am not a fan of Norma brass.

JeffVN

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

What area was the gun maker at concern with ?

 

[miketx2002]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

My brand new .338 Norma Mag with plenty of brass and dies!!

 

[steve123]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Thats one sharp looking snake...I mean rifle.Don't forget the range report.

 

[Yorman]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

The rifle shoots. Damn good.

The titanium muzzle brake is the cat's ass.

Mike save some of that brass for me!

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Titanium muzzle brake? what brand is it.

Robert

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Here is a bump for Mike's Gun Sales and service.
There has been more than one post here on the Hide regarding Jet Suppressors....I'll let it go at that.
Mike stepped up to the plate not long ago in building a .338 Norma Mag for me.
When the rifle showed up (in record time) it was a damn fine build.
The rifle sent down to Texas was in less than stellar shape, chambered in .338 Lapua Mag.
-Remington Long action
-Rock barrel
-Factory bolt (lapped to severe imperfection) by a well known non mentioned entity, with Badger Tac handle
-AICS 2.0 folder
What I did was send a new barrel, and had a new Dve Kiff PTG bolt with M-16 extractor installed while having everything trued up for a good to go fit.
Again, as mentioned before, I got back a very straight, damn fine, way sub MOA rifle back from Mike and Deb. With a range report.
I also ordered some reloading dies from them while already having ammo purchased from Black Hills.
The Black Hills ammo (lot 158) was extremely substandard in performance from what I already knew was a sub MOA weapon.
There I said it...say what you will but the ammo, not weapon or cartridge design for that matter was very substandard in performance.
Today I had the opportunity to shoot reloaded ammo that followed
Mr. Sloan's (.338 cartridge designer) specs.
Several of us shot the weapon out to 750 with sub MOA performance that borders on the unbelievable or "Flag" on the BS scale.
By the end of the week I will have the opportunity to shoot to 1500 maybe 1800 with the same expected results.

Pictured in the DCLW with DLOC and AI triple rail during testing.
To Mike and Deb brown...thank you for a damn fine rifle build!

 

[Yorman]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Robert,

The brake is made by MGSS they are better known as JET. I saw them being cranked out on Saturday, there's more if you want one.

Scott,

Mike and Debbie are friends of mine and have always been very supportive. I'm fortunate that I get to do my personal work in his shop and play with all the new toys. The new building with all the new machines is allowing Mike to catch production up to demand. I think you will find that the problems of the past have been left in the past.

Jimmy has designed one hell of a cartridge I hope that the world beats a path to his door. Glad the rifle is shooting so well. Let us know how the long range performance is. Please post photos of the groups. I know better than to call BS on them.

Roy

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Roy,
Will do sir.
So far it has shown sub 1/4 MOA performance.
Go ahead....throw the flag.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Thanks Roy,

What is the recoil like wih them?

 

[Yorman]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Robert,

I'm a big ole boy and recoil does not bother me. That said it feels like a .30-06 out of a light hunting rifle. Perfectly manageable. But loud!!!

Scott I promised no flag from me!

 

[shpanther]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Weighed out 200 cases Sunday.It became pointless,finding less than 1% variation on the weight difference. Shot the rifle to check a case and function. All good!!! I have 250&300gr SMK's and 250gr.RN hornadys for the can. The .338 Norma was really set up for 300's but I just gotta know. Time to get it in the right stock and get a load up to speed!

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Anyone shooting this please post results, Im curious to see if it is more accurate at longer distances that the Lapua.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

alcadaterminada
From my above post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roy,
Will do sir.
So far it has shown sub 1/4 MOA performance.
Go ahead....throw the flag. </div></div>

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Hard to believe but who am I to argue. If its consistent sub 1/4 moa where do I sign up?

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Shoot me email. I have a deal going if I build you a 338 norma I will sell you 50 pcs of norma brass at cost. You can order the dies from hornady they are there custom grade so it will be a bit more than std dies but are worth the $.

 

[JL]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: miketx2002</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I can tell you about the .338 Norma Mag is that it easily outperforms the .338 Lapua Mag. Accuracy, consistency and higher velocities are some of it's characteristics. Why is this cartridge better than 338 lapua? How about less powder, less recoil, less heat and less noise by virtue of a superior cartridge design.

Mike Brown
MGSS/Jet Suppressors
www.jetsuppressors.com
361-758-9381
</div></div>

Less powder and still same MV must mean better coefficient of efficiency- because cartridge is using same type traditional powders.
When same weight projectile is pushed to same or identical velocity range at similar lenght barrells, recoil can not be any smaller either because same mass is accelerated to same velocity at same barrell lenght.

If MV is same with smaller charge, then powder must produce (relatively) more expanding gas. In practice, better efficiency.
More expanding gas volume means more heat as well- there isnt free lunches. Same bullets, same friction heat.

Achieving desired (338Lapua comparable) MV even with 338Norma, pressure levels can not be reduced without losing projectile´s velocity.
Pressure causes noise or boom, gas eruptive from barrell and generate supersonic shockwaves.
So, could noise level be any smaller than f.e. 338Lapua with similar performance level? I dont think so.

Possibly more advanced "bottle-shape" brass design itself cant produce any energy- only better coefficient in some cases -> meaning same pressure+heat with smaller powder charge.

 

[Criver600]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Sub 1.5 inches at 600 and sub 2.5 inches at 1000????

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Sub 1.5 " at 600 yes, several times.
Sub 2.5 at 1000 has yet to be done by me.
Sub 1/2 MOA at 1000 has been done several times by several other shooters. Group reports in the 1/4" range @1000 from some folks have been shot.
No matter if it's a laser you still have to hold it dead nuts to do it. I just haven't had that opportunity yet.
My weapon has shown the ability to do it out to 750 so far.
FWIW

 

[Criver600]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Oak Ridge runs a 3x1000 second Saturday of the month with a 3x600 on Sunday. Get some buddies and come up and shoot. I'd love to see the big dog run.
(3X 20 shots plus sighters) plenty of trigger time

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

JL,
It is only a few gr less ; Have you ever seen one to compare ?

Guaranteed it wont be any more pressure than you pour into your (338Lapua comparable) but I wanted to be able say what ever you can safely put on the Lapua case you can surely put on to the new Norma case;
Have you had a chance to shoot one or seen one shot ? for I know the reamers were released a few months ago.

The velocity you will find on 24.0 to 26.0 BBL will be all that the Lapua ever did load for load at where ever you would want to load set pressure in the real world.

And I dont believe youll be looking back for where the Norma is in technology an performance,once you shoot one.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

That can be a nice slap..............

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Criver,
I would really like to come over there and shoot.
We have shot at the Tennessee State in Tullahoma, that was a great time.
Most of my (F-Class) is done here at MSSA in Memphis, tho we have gone over to Camp Robinson for some 1000 time.
It's finding the time to do it, that's the bitch of it all.
Thanks for the invite

 

[JL]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Have None</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> JL,
It is only a few gr less ; Have you ever seen one to compare ?

Guaranteed it wont be any more pressure than you pour into your (338Lapua comparable) but I wanted to be able say what ever you can safely put on the Lapua case you can surely put on to the new Norma case;
Have you had a chance to shoot one or seen one shot ? for I know the reamers were released a few months ago.

The velocity you will find on 24.0 to 26.0 BBL will be all that the Lapua ever did load for load at where ever you would want to load set pressure in the real world.

And I dont believe youll be looking back for where the Norma is in technology an performance,once you shoot one.


</div></div>

No, I dont have any experience with 338Norma.
I have no reason to believe there is something wrong with it, vice versa.

Just wanted to point out few things about Lapua Mag and Norma Mag comparison.

Norma may be good or even excellent, but it has to obey same laws of physics than rest of the cartridges- including 338 Lapua.

 

[Huckleberry]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Seat bullets in both cartridges with the BT at the base of the neck irregardless of mag length. Lapua will outrun it. Mag length is what hurts the Lapua. The bullet is pushed further down in the case using up case capacity.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Did that few years back, did not happen that way ..

 

[375rgr]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Seat the bullet to the BT in the Lapua, the same place as the Norma
You will add powder to get the velocity back you lost by seating there. Belive it or not it is alot of velocity lose. The lapua OAl will be 3.8 plus. Good luck finding a Mag it will fit in. If you do you will have to modify the feed ramp stock and more to get it to work. Now your down to a couple of actions to put this in.

 

[Graham]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I noticed that the barrels of the .338 Norma rifles pictured appear shorter than the .338 Lapua 'standard' of 27".

Is anyone getting fouling/bullet slow-down in the last inch of a 27"-29" bbl. with the Norma cartridge?

If so, could it be that the .338 Norma, because of the more efficient case design, with the right powder would make an equivalent performer to a .338 Lapua but with a shorter 24" or 25" barrel?

This could mean - finally - a better handling .338 with no loss of accuracy and velocity.

Just thinking out loud....

 

[Supersubes]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

In a conversation with Preston at Surgeon, he said he is building many .338's with shorter barrels, even down into the teen's if I remember.

I may have missed the exact spec but isn't the capacity of the Norma nearly identical to the lapua? We aren't talking a massive difference. The biggest benny is the ability to seat the bullets out for mag feeding IMO.

 

[Huckleberry]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I did not say it was a lot faster, just like the 7mm STW is not a lot faster than the Rem Mag.

 

[SamLS]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I have heard of a few .338 Normas locking up some Remington size actions. Does it have a larger case head than the Lapua round? I didn't measure it when I examined the round. Personally I would wait until the loading Data is published before jumping on this band wagon. It sounds like a new 340 Weatherby, "Works in a long action and has a little less case capacity than the Lapua". The .340 Weatherby will stress the action less at the same pressure.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Same head size as the Lapua. Locking up?

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

And I just used to wonder how some folks could destroy a remington action with something as innocent as a 300 whisper,or for that matter a steel ball bearing with a rubber hammer.

 

[Cheese]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DemoSam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard of a few .338 Normas locking up some Remington size actions. Does it have a larger case head than the Lapua round? I didn't measure it when I examined the round. Personally I would wait until the loading Data is published before jumping on this band wagon. It sounds like a new 340 Weatherby, "Works in a long action and has a little less case capacity than the Lapua". The .340 Weatherby will stress the action less at the same pressure. </div></div>

I'd like to hear where the "Locking up" is taking place.
I have seen this cartridge work on Remington actions for a few years now.
FWIW

 

[Supersubes]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I spoke to a gunsmith I met at the range the other day. He is testing the Norma now. His max load with RL25 and 300smk's is 90 grains for 2800fps out of a 26" Krieger. He said that is not a year around load and would be too hot if the conditions were hot.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I would not have chose RL-25 on any day, powder is to harsh, even with the worst of powder choices it will still shoot 3/4 of an inch.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Harsh?

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

It will probably become a more well rounded load with ;

Ramshot Magnum; 91.5 to 92.0
Primer; WLRMP
26.0 BBL
2775 to 2800

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'm leaning more towards H1000, Retumbo, or even slower as teh powder of choice for this cartridge. I've heard good things about RL-25 in teh 338LM with the 300 grain SMKs - it sure shot great in my 7WSM in Houston.

JeffVN

 

[miketx2002]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Have None,
Here's this weeks shipment of .338 Norma Mags 2 Rem's and 1 Accuracy International conversion. The AI used to be a 300WM. I've got a few more that'll be shipping shortly.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Miketx2002;
Very nice,good lookin builds,you guys do nice work.

 

[SamLS]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I'd like to hear where the "Locking up" is taking place.
I have seen this cartridge work on Remington actions for a few years now.
FWIW[/quote]

I was contacted by an action mfg regarding such problems based on complaints received (with 338 Norma and 338 Lapua). These rounds due to the larger case head diameter, load the action 30% more than the 300 H&H magnum family of cartridges at the same pressure. So those used to "tuning" their magnums and watching the pressure signs similarily find themselves in trouble much sooner with cases of this diameter ( 338 Norma - 338 Lapua ). So its no surprise at all when someone starts adding powder to equal the velocities his friend "says" he gets with the .338 Lapua or .338 Norma finds himself needing a hammer to open the bolt especially on the smaller size actions.

The quality and availibility of the .338 Norma brass should also be a consideration. I'll wait for the published Pressure velocity Data from the powder manufacturers before chambering one up.

 

[Raggs]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Well we could say that the Rem ultra mag case has a 65000 PSI rating and I have seen folks destroy actions even though data has been there for years, the book did not seem to help.

The Norma is and has been shot by 2 major powder companies for almost a year now, and as for its purpose at the time it was sent to intended Locations for people of intrest, and clearly it was not sent to those folks until it was formerly shot and proven before it was in there hands and yet they dont seem to have this problem

As for the brass there is plenty on the way,300,000 PCS this coming month so that should satisfy some of the availibility concerns,

But the DIA of casehead only apply's to bolt thrust to me,
and somewhere i have the formula to figure that ill see if i can find and post,and then Pressure is all that the webb will ever be.

The locking up problem,well its been 7 years for me in rem,Nesika and one AI but mostly REMINGTONS and 70,000 RNDS to prove it's worth before we got here ;

Please I would like to hear your choices of recievers, for platforms for the Lapua or the Norma and then would like to build on these and shoot as well so I wont be speaking 2nd hand information and will value the knowledge greatly.

 

[SamLS]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Have None</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well we could say that the Rem ultra mag case has a 65000 PSI rating and I have seen folks destroy actions even though data has been there for years, the book did not seem to help.

The Norma is and has been shot by 2 major powder companies for almost a year now, and as for its purpose at the time it was sent to intended Locations for people of intrest, and clearly it was not sent to those folks until it was formerly shot and proven before it was in there hands and yet they dont seem to have this problem

As for the brass there is plenty on the way,300,000 PCS this coming month so that should satisfy some of the availibility concerns,

But the DIA of casehead only apply's to bolt thrust to me,
and somewhere i have the formula to figure that ill see if i can find and post,and then Pressure is all that the webb will ever be.

The locking up problem,well its been 7 years for me in rem,Nesika and one AI but mostly REMINGTONS and 70,000 RNDS to prove it's worth before we got here ;

Please I would like to hear your choices of recievers, for platforms for the Lapua or the Norma and then would like to build on these and shoot as well so I wont be speaking 2nd hand information and will value the knowledge greatly.</div></div>

I'm skeptical the 338 Norma will match the .338 Lapua unless a powder is developed specifically for it based on the evidence I have seen. I'm not aware of any pressure velocity data being published for the .338 Norma with powders available to reloaders. If two major powder companies shot this cartridge a year ago why isn't the data published? Regarding Brass I don't consider Norma on the level with Lapua from that standpoint. I like new cartridges as much as anyone else but I'm not biting on this one yet.

 

[Yorman]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Maybe the data wasn't published because the powder isn't available to you. So the data would be moot.

Maybe the powder being used <span style="text-decoration: underline">was</span> specifically developed for this cartridge and the numbers are true.

Maybe the powder is made by a MAJOR powder company.

Maybe I know more than I'm saying!

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I have a couple of question:

Which vendors are getting the 300K pieces of brass - so I can get some?

When is the magic/proprietary powder going to be available to the rest of us? Or will it be only in loaded ammo form by some major provider like Black Hills?

If its not going to be made generally available, so that the rest of us can reload with the magic powder, we will likely NOT be able to reload to match the stated numbers and then it will not prove out the claims.

Not trying to be an ass, just a couple of legitimate questions from soemone who has a rifle already on order in this chambering.

JeffVN

 

[C.K]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Black hills shooters supply has the brass.

Powders; PM 1SMALLJOHNSON He'll know and ask him about how the powder is coming along(If its going to be available in canister grade???).

 

[SamLS]

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Just Roy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the data wasn't published because the powder isn't available to you. So the data would be moot.

Maybe the powder being used <span style="text-decoration: underline">was</span> specifically developed for this cartridge and the numbers are true.

Maybe the powder is made by a MAJOR powder company.

Maybe I know more than I'm saying!</div></div>

Thats exactly my suspicion about the .338 Norma and yes maybe alot of people know more than what is being said. There's alot of praise for the cartridge from people who appear to have something to sell.

Creedmore and Hornady set the bar pretty high with the release of the 6.5 mm Creedmore. ( not that I'm going to run out and buy one ) I really appreciated seeing the thought and information they provided with its introduction. It hit the ground with published load data. I look foreward to when the powder comes available as some less expensive cartridges with similar volume are going to run right along with it.

I see alot of rifles chambered in this cartridge with a 9.3 - 9.5 in twist why so fast? I would think you only require a twist that fast if you planned on running 2600fps with a 300mk?