Hunting & Fishing 350 Legend vs 450 Bushmaster vs 45-70

[WB300]

I want to play. I have 3 platforms I want another cartridge for. T/C Encore, AR 15 upper, and lever gun. I'm doing this to host a Rugged Obsidian 45 that is in jail. Purpose will be deer and hogs 200 yards and closer, and the lever gun might pull security in bear country along with the 10mm on my hip.

I was thinking: 350 Legend for the Encore, 450 BM on an AR upper, and 45-70 lever gun... all 16" barrels or slightly longer.

What can either caliber/cartridge do that the others can't? I understand the 450 BM will thump harder than the 350 L, and that the 45-70 will thump most and is best for bears. But for 200 yards and less, is the difference significant? Let's assume the platforms will carry a low power scope or red dot.

This will be factory ammo only, although I have 45-70 dies and COULD reload, but don't want to at first. The new Ruger made Marlin 1895 is what brought this all up.

Can the 450 BM be the jack of all trades for the 3 platforms at my distances? If you could only have 1 cartridge for all 3, what would it be?

If you had to choose 2 cartridges, which goes with what platform??

If you chose all 3 cartridges, which goes with what platform???

What say ye?

 

[elwarpo]

I have always liked the 444 marlin. Much flatter shooting than the 45-70 and a thumper for hogs

 

[HenryTheAce]

450 bushmaster is a badass round. I’ve been hammering deer with it for the past couple years. Don’t think I’ve had one go further than 40yds after the shot, furthest shot I’ve made is 225yds. Bullet sounds like someone with a baseball bat hitting a punching bag, you can actually hear it SMACK the deer. You know instantly whether you missed or hit it lol

 

[WB300]

Looks like the ol 45-70 is still hard to beat. Safer factory loads for the lever gun, then reload the brass up or down for my Encore.

450 Bushmaster seems to be popular in the AR platform. Lots of data out there.

Only reason I considered the 350 Legend is because I see ammo on the shelf everywhere. Softer shooting than the others, but with a suppressor, I don't see a problem with the 450 or 45-70.

 

[Adam B]

Get a 45 Raptor, same load data as a 460 S&W. I have one in a custom bolt gun and it is a hammer. I shoot 250gr at 2550fps. My dad has one as well that started out as a Ruger American in 450 BM that got a custom barrel thrown on it.

 

[HenryTheAce]

Get a 45 Raptor, same load data as a 460 S&W. I have one in a custom bolt gun and it is a hammer. I shoot 250gr at 2550fps. My dad has one as well that started out as a Ruger American in 450 BM that got a custom barrel thrown on it.

I don’t think the Obsidian 45 can handle 45 Raptor. It can barely/not even handle 450 Bushmaster. I was out shooting mine yesterday out of a 16.5” barrel shooting Bear Creek Ballistics 240gr 450bm chrono’d at an average of 2515fps and it crushed my front baffle like a pop can. No damage on any of the others

 

[Adam B]

good point, I run a hybrid. Shit your running 2515, maybe I need to step my load up

 

[WB300]

The 45 Raptor sounds like a bad ass round, but holy shit! I don't want to push the limits of the can. Whatever Rugged says is the minimum barrel length for a given cartridge, I'll probably add 2". And when I reload, I don't like pushing the upper limits.

 

[HenryTheAce]

good point, I run a hybrid. Shit your running 2515, maybe I need to step my load up

Yeah it’s extremely hot ammo. My first year trying it. Seems to group decently. I’m not a reloader but some day I’ll jump in. Hybrid is an awesome can!

 

[Adam B]

Yeah it’s extremely hot ammo. My first year trying it. Seems to group decently. I’m not a reloader but some day I’ll jump in. Hybrid is an awesome can!

As long as you are not seeing pressure signs and it groups I wouldn't worry about it. I did some loads for my daughter's 350 legend and I was shooting 125gr copper solids at 3050. Let's just say I ruined a few cases

 

[HenryTheAce]

The 45 Raptor sounds like a bad ass round, but holy shit! I don't want to push the limits of the can. Whatever Rugged says is the minimum barrel length for a given cartridge, I'll probably add 2". And when I reload, I don't like pushing the upper limits.

Technically I was well within the limits of 16” + barrel length for 450bm. I just doubt they tested it with 450 ammo loaded up like that. Oh well, I’m sure Rugged will take care of me, they’re a solid company. Thankfully no wall explosion or nothing else happened

 

[WB300]

Technically I was well within the limits of 16” + barrel length for 450bm. I just doubt they tested it with 450 ammo loaded up like that. Oh well, I’m sure Rugged will take care of me, they’re a solid company. Thankfully no wall explosion or nothing else happened

Do you think it was a pressure issue or a stability issue?

 

[HenryTheAce]

Do you think it was a pressure issue or a stability issue?

Pressure. There is no visible baffle strike from what I can tell. Unless somehow it struck the first baffle but not any of the others which would be odd I would think.

As long as you are not seeing pressure signs and it groups I wouldn't worry about it. I did some loads for my daughter's 350 legend and I was shooting 125gr copper solids at 3050. Let's just say I ruined a few cases

Lol 3050!! Dang! That is smoking! I don’t believe in having pressure signs. I’m not a reloader so honestly I have no idea. Here’s a pic of the spent brass. They all look like this roughly.

 

[Choid]

I love 45-70, both for the nostalgia, and because you can load it in a million different ways. I run 405 hard casts in my lever guns, for the most part, but I also have some 560 grain hollow points that expand at low velocity and are a hoot to shoot. But, if you aren't going to reload, none of that matters.

As far as bear protection, I am assuming you are talking about black bears where you are, you don't need any of these. Black bears are small, scared creatures that can be dealt with pretty easily with any handgun other than a 22. Now if you are talking about grizzly, you are on the right track.

The 350 legend seems like a pretty cool cartridge, though I have no experience. So do the Wilson HAMR cartridges which are similar.

 

[Adam B]

Pressure. There is no visible baffle strike from what I can tell. Unless somehow it struck the first baffle but not any of the others which would be odd I would think.

Lol 3050!! Dang! That is smoking! I don’t believe in having pressure signs. I’m not a reloader so honestly I have no idea. Here’s a pic of the spent brass. They all look like this roughly. View attachment 7730691

those are overpressured, the prime is flowing back out, not good

 

[HenryTheAce]

those are overpressured, the prime is flowing back out, not good

Hmmm interesting. So probably should not shoot any more of it ehh? I wonder if everyone shooting this “factory” ammo is having overpressure signs but just not aware of it. I sent an email of the pic to Bear Creek Ballistics to see what they have to say.

 

[Adam B]

I would email them and send them the pictures of the primers

 

[stello1001]

Yeah those are definitely on the hot side. Aside from the primer showing it, I see some swipes too on the case heads...

 

[HenryTheAce]

Sorry @WB300 don’t want to hijack your thread. Moving this over to the DT page on bolt actions

 

[WB300]

No worries Henry. If it keeps the information flowing, hijack away!

 

[CaptArab]

I'd go 350 legend and reload 9mm RMR 124 MPR on the cheap.

 

[HenryTheAce]

@Adam B @stello1001 so I shot some standard Hornady 250gr FTX loads and noticed the primers doing the same thing. I think the chamfer on the bolt head is too large. Going to do some groups with in next week to see if it’s effecting accuracy any. The Bear Creek ammo definitely is protruding more but the Hornady is still protruding a smidge

 

[Adam B]

I wonder if you’re too far into the lands with the bullet?

 

[Averageman]

Well I can tell you this from experience with the 450 Bushmaster. Within 50 yards its as potent as my 45-70. I have no experience with the 350 Legend but from videos I've seen and other forums looks like an excellent hunting round. 450 Bushmaster does have quite a kick, and is probably more than a deer hunter "needs" but it sure does a good job.

 

[Averageman]

Delete

 

[alpine44]

450 Bushmaster here. I am using the same bullets I load into 450 BM rounds in my 50 cal muzzleloader with the help of a Harvester sabot. Accuracy and terminal effect is excellent with both.

The muzzleloader is set up to exploit the maximum practical range with a Zeiss Rapid-Z BDC reticle out to 300 yard during deer season. The 450 BM is in an AR pistol and serves as a brush gun in the mountains of Western NC where black bear and Eurasian boar roam. Muzzle velocity from the 12" barrel is on par with the muzzleloader at around 2000 fps for a 250gr bullet.

 

[JAS-SH]

Hands down the 45-70. In Marlin lever guns you can shoot hot +P rounds from 350 to 540 grains! They hurt your shoulder!

There is an ammo maker called Garrett Cartridges Inc. that makes some really hard hitting thumpers. See here:

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

And there is a guy called Vince Lupo who took his 45-70 with Garret ammo to Africa and got all the Big Six. His site has great Africa stories in two parts:

https://vincestrophies.com/?page_id=11

I did a lot of research on the big ole cartridge and finally went with a Turnbull Restorations customized Marlin1895 Pic below:

Best,

JAS

 

[Adam B]

That's great and all but just doesn't keep up with times. There are so many better cartridges now the 45-70 is just irrelevant. You could honestly take a 30-06 to Africa and with the right shot placement do the exact same thing if it weren’t for caliber minimums.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Its pretty easy.

450 Bushmaster is basically a semi auto capable 45-70. Look at the ballistics and they are nearly identical.

So if you are going with a semi, you need to decide. Are you hunting Whitetails, black bears and pigs or are you hunting Mulies, Moose, Elk and Brown bears?

If you aren't hunting western big game, the 350 legend is more than enough to take down anything you could come across. If you need more ass, get the 450 bushmaster.

Yes there are about a dozen boutique and wildcat rounds, but both of these can be found on the shelf at a local sporting good store today. Recoil between these two is a significant difference. Right tool right Job.

 

[Potsy]

I’ve long thought about playing with a .45-70 w/325 flex tips at 2200 or so with a small mil/mil scope. Running the numbers, that combo will get out there quite a bit further than most realize.
I’ve got a Ruger #1 .45-70 and love it. It’s a buffalo rifle that thinks it’s a quail gun. Just have an old vari x iii 1.5-5 on it. Never have loaded it beyond 35kpsi, no need in TN, and very few other places for that matter. Been running a 405 Remington over 50grn 3031 for 1800fps. I need to get it past 100 yards and see what it’ll do.
If you handload, the old round will do rather incredible things. In terms of power it’s well ahead of the aforementioned calibers, though admittedly not usually needed.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I wouldn't say well ahead. Its comparable and both can be loaded hotter. One being semi-auto and fitting into a small AR frame is a huge advantage, not to mention a gas system that will eat some of the recoil.

45-70

300 gr (standard) JHP

2,069 ft/s (631 m/s)

2,852 ft⋅lbf (3,867 J)

.450 BM

260 gr (17 g) AccuTip

2,180 ft/s (660 m/s)

2,744 ft⋅lbf (3,720 J)

For a guy trying to buy ammo today, there is zero 45-70 on the shelf and its production numbers are low. You can walk into just about any sportsmans or Cabelas and grab a few boxes of 450BM or 350L today.

 

[Biggie1976]

Following for good info

 

[Potsy]

Hogdon gives 2,424fps in their lever action data with a 300 grainer and 4198. Call that 2325 out of a 20” lever gun.
Looks like 1875 for the 300 in a .450BM in the same length.
That said, I run a 286 grain cast bullet (270-SAA)in a sabot out of my old Knight muzzleloader at about 1,700, and it slaps deer hard, so it’s not like your undergunned with a BM. Pretty tough to cram a .45-70 in an AR as well.

 

[WannabeWoodsman]

That's great and all but just doesn't keep up with times. There are so many better cartridges now the 45-70 is just irrelevant. You could honestly take a 30-06 to Africa and with the right shot placement do the exact same thing if it weren’t for caliber minimums.

That DID happen. Ask Theodore Roosevelt about his infamous "specimen gathering"

 

[JAS-SH]

That's great and all but just doesn't keep up with times. There are so many better cartridges now the 45-70 is just irrelevant. You could honestly take a 30-06 to Africa and with the right shot placement do the exact same thing if it weren’t for caliber minimums.

I just revisited this thread and found your post.

Have you ever been to Africa? I have, spent over a month out there in and around South Africa -14 hour flight from Portugal to Pretoria with one stop. If you haven't been you have no freaking clue about how it works down there. A 30-06 is a pipsqueak in that part of the world. That is why they don't let you use that cartridge in certain circumstances. Our guides carried nothing less than a .375 H&H. See here:

375 H&H

We are not talking deer here. Most animals down there don't run when shot, they fight back! And because of all the brush they spend their time in, it's all close and personal. 90 percent of the shots under 100 yards. When out photographing game the PH would back up to them in our OPEN range rover. I asked him why. He said, "I've only got one gear in reverse. Not fast enough to get away!"

Bottom line is you need the largest diameter , heaviest, bullet you can throw at them, and quickly, at least two. The more the better. That's why a lever action with 7-rounds of 540 grain +P super hard hard cast bullets in 45.70 is a good choice for close and personal. There is a reason why them large bore double barrel Brit rifles are still popular.

Go out there with a 30-06 bolt action and bring down an elephant or a water buffalo, or even a lion (lions are 330-500 pounds on average by the way) inside 100 yards with a 30-06 bolt action before it gets to you. It ain't happening. Again, them are not whitetails or moose or even grizzlies.

 

[Deets]

• barnesbullets.com

I’ll just leave this here.

 

[Modoc]

I don’t have any experience with the 350 or 450, but a fair bit with the 45-70. All three are good cartridges from reports from trusted friends and will do the job with correct bullets.

If you were reloading for the 45-70 I’d recommend the data from the Lyman reloading manual where they give data for 3 different rifle types. I have some 405g hardcast loaded at the Ruger No. 1 level with 53g of IMR 3031 that hurt on both ends when you shoot them, but put paid on multiple Black Bear (1 and done).

My 1886 Winchester (Mirouku) handles them with aplomb, but is a pleasure to shoot with factory Barnes loads and various BP equivalent loads.

I would love to have an AR pistol in the 350, but multiple factors rule it out for me.

 

[Potsy]

Whew that Barnes’ data is smoking’!

I’m sending my #1 somewhere after deer season for a recoil pad. The Ruger pad feels as though it was made by Michelin, and at 49, I’m really starting to feel 405’s at 1750 (a mere 50 grains of 3031).

I might even back it up to a 350 Ranch Dog (cast bullet) at 1600-1700. Where I hunt now 75 yards is a looong shot, but busting shoulders will be mandatory, as it’s either very thick, very steep, or both.

 

[Deets]

Whew that Barnes’ data is smoking’!

I’m sending my #1 somewhere after deer season for a recoil pad. The Ruger pad feels as though it was made by Michelin, and at 49, I’m really starting to feel 405’s at 1750 (a mere 50 grains of 3031).

I might even back it up to a 350 Ranch Dog (cast bullet) at 1600-1700. Where I hunt now 75 yards is a looong shot, but busting shoulders will be mandatory, as it’s either very thick, very steep, or both.

That load data is for the Ruger 1 only. That design must really be able to handle some shit.

 

[Potsy]

#1’s are plenty stout (per the falling block design). They’ve been chambered in all the common belted magnums, so 55kpsi is no big deal.
For the record, I’ve never taken mine to the top end of what it will do.
405’s at 1800 is all the fun I can stand out of an 8.5lb rifle.
She’ll do another 200.

 

[Ronws]

I have been fascinated by these straight wall cartridges in the past year or so. .350 Legend with light grain weights and comfortable speeds offer just about no recoil and will take any deer. All the advantages of the big bores from years back. And easier to handle the recoil than that of the .375 H&H.

.45-70 Govt has a long history. I think, if I was to get a straight wall for it's close range and make a big hole capabilities, I would get the .450 Bush Master. Shooting over 200 grains and good to a smidge past 200 yards. You won't get much out of trying to shoot past 300 yards, anyway.

As for recoil and shootability, I would probably get one from one of my favorite companies. Windham Weaponry has a .450 Bush Master semi-auto called the .450 Thumper and it comes with an MLOK handguard and a Luth AR adjustable stock, which are very comfortable like the Magpul PRS Gen III. Full picatinny rail ready optics, lights, cigar lighter. All the WW rifles have threaded barrels for brakes and suppressors. So, you can have a comfortable experience, feeling like a .350 Legend with a bit more oomph.