55 gr. VMax, COM hits

[ruark]

I'm new here, this is my first post. I apologize if this is in the wrong section!

Everywhere you look, there's pro and con about the 55 gr. .223 Hornady Vmax ballistic tip where human targets are concerned. I won't bring up that tired old debate, but I have a question, since this round is often said to crater when hitting dense bone. At close range, say at 3000 - 3100 fps, what kind of tissue damage would you expect from this round with a direct, frontal sternum hit? Would it just crater and not penetrate at all? What if it hit an upper rib? Obviously, if it entered between ribs, it would cause utter chaos in the chest cavity, but I'm wondering to what extent a sternum or rib hit would degrade its effectiveness.

 

[wfjames22]

I'm new here, this is my first post. I apologize if this is in the wrong section!

Everywhere you look, there's pro and con about the 55 gr. .223 Hornady Vmax ballistic tip where human targets are concerned. I won't bring up that tired old debate, but I have a question, since this round is often said to crater when hitting dense bone. At close range, say at 3000 - 3100 fps, what kind of tissue damage would you expect from this round with a direct, frontal sternum hit? Would it just crater and not penetrate at all? What if it hit an upper rib? Obviously, if it entered between ribs, it would cause utter chaos in the chest cavity, but I'm wondering to what extent a sternum or rib hit would degrade its effectiveness.

Wrong forum entirely to ask that question.

 

[Evolution 9]

Actual results on dozens of deer and several elk indicate that the bullet will punch through the bone and do incredible damage to the tissue behind it. This applies to 40, 50, and 60 grain V-Max rounds as well.

Most of the "splashes" (wide wound with no depth at all) I've heard about and witnessed involved over-driven bullets (hot loads from long barrels in fast calibers). From a 16" AR, you won't have a problem.

Someone will likely say elk and deer are not close enough to humans for this info to be relevant... and then they will tell you how similar we are Jello blocks...

 

[ccoker]

Had a buddy drop an Elk with 55g Vmax out his M4 that wandrered on his property while out coyote hunting... in central Texas ...

 

[USACS]

In contrast, there are LE agencies that have used Hornady VMAX TAP Urban loads that have had failures to stop due to shallow penetration.
Below is what Hornady claims will happen.

If you want the real deal on this kind of load, go over to Lightfighter.net, M4Carbine.net or Arfcom and send a message to DocGKR. That's Dr. Gary Roberts, who is affiliated with the IWBA. He's one of the foremost current experts in modern wound ballistics.
It was his expertise that helped me to stop our SWAT team from trying to buy those worthless fucking FN P90s.

 

[ruark]

Actual results on dozens of deer and several elk indicate that the bullet will punch through the bone and do incredible damage to the tissue behind it. This applies to 40, 50, and 60 grain V-Max rounds as well.

So you're personally seen this on dozens of deer and elk, coming from a 55 gr. 223 Vmax AR rifle? Just making sure we're both talking about the same thing.

 

[Evolution 9]

So you're personally seen this on dozens of deer and elk, coming from a 55 gr. 223 Vmax AR rifle? Just making sure we're both talking about the same thing.

Not all have been 55 grain. Some were 40, 50, and 60 grain (they all act VERY similar on impact), at ranges from 20 yards to 600 yards. All were from AR-15s with barrel lengths from 10.5" to 16". 100% (1 shot) kill rate with the ones I witnessed. Furthest an animal ran was about 40 yards. Most ran 0-10 yards. All shots were into the vitals. Most were factory Blue Box Black Hills loads.

An interesting side note: The 60 grain V-Max rounds often pass entirely through an elk if the elk is "double lunged". They require something more substantial than lung to really expand and explode. Of course, because the animal is "double lunged", a whole lot of expansion isn't needed.

 

[Ring]

front chest hit with nothing in the way, on a normal human would be fine...

on some 400+ pound fatty or going thru the arms 1st before hitting chest, you may have issues,,,

but thats why you have a 30rd mag

 

[502Chevelle]

In "Green Eyes and Black Rifles", Kyle Lamb doesn't recommend it. I'm not saying it won't work, but I tend to listen to Kyle quite carefully.

 

[Evolution 9]

...That's Dr. Gary Roberts, who is affiliated with the IWBA. He's one of the foremost current experts in modern wound ballistics...

I've followed his posts with great interest for quite some time.

His major focus for several years (in terms of what 223/556 bullets he recommended) was bullets that fragmented into as many pieces as possible while reaching a certain minimum depth. This is why he recommended the 77 grain OTMs and the Hornady 75 grain T2 OTM bullet. He favored the 75 grain T2 OTM bullet (it was his top pic for some time) because it began fragmenting almost immediately.

So...

The leading industry expert was a big fan (still is, but is now leaning toward barrier blind rounds) of rounds that fragment violently and start that fragmentation early...

The V-Max rounds do exactly that, and FAR more consistently than any OTM round...

The V-Max rounds do that out past 500 yards from a 16" barrel, and out past 300 yards from a 10.5" barrel, while the OTMs are lucky to get 250 yards, and 120 yards respectively...

The downside to the V-Max rounds? Penetration is about ideal for non-obstructed shots, but as often cited, if it has to pass through an arm, it's not going to penetrate the vitals.

If you think the small likelihood of shooting through someone's arm outweighs the benefits mentioned above, V-Max rounds are not for you. Otherwise, they are hard to beat, and as an added benefit, they aren't spendy.

As an anecdotal side note: In a recent LE shooting in NV, a deputy shot a man 4 times from a 16" AR at roughly 15 yards. All rounds struck the upper arm (and were on a trajectory to hit the vitals). He was using the 75 grain Hornady TAP round (5.56mm with the T2 bullet) (the one that's supposed to be superior to V-Max rounds in case you have to shoot through an arm). There was only slight lung penetration from one or two of the rounds, and the man is alive and well today.

I really don't care what anybody carries as a defense/duty round. Carry what gives you the warm fuzzies

Me? I use a variety of rounds for a variety of situations. If I could only have one for plinking, hunting, and duty, I'd pick the 50 grain V-Max (40, 55, and 60 would be fine too).

If money is no object, the Black Hills 50 grain Optimized TSX is pretty darn good.

 

[TheGerman]

If you're worried about penetration and engaging in a defensive situation with 55 grain 5.56 rounds, I would simply do 1 of the following:

- Buy factory M193 Lake City, Federal, American Eagle rounds

- Load 55gr FMJ and use that as the mainstay round for your rifle. They're cheap, available and will penetrate. While they won't be the best at expansion, I am assuming that from a defensive standpoint you are not taking 1 shot like you would when out hunting. They work, will load in pretty much any chamber and will put the threat down with COM hits.

 

[Rhyno]

If you're worried about penetration and engaging in a defensive situation with 55 grain 5.56 rounds, I would simply do 1 of the following:

- Buy factory M193 Lake City, Federal, American Eagle rounds

- Load 55gr FMJ and use that as the mainstay round for your rifle. They're cheap, available and will penetrate. While they won't be the best at expansion, I am assuming that from a defensive standpoint you are not taking 1 shot like you would when out hunting. They work, will load in pretty much any chamber and will put the threat down with COM hits.

Plus they'll pass through the sheet rock wall and kill that annoying baby that keeps you up all night. Win win.

Wife might be a bit angry that she spent 9 months in misery and you ended up shooting it, then again she might want to bang more to create another one which would create a win/win/win scenario.

 

[TheGerman]

See, Rhyno is a 'glass half full' kind of guy.

 

[Red_SC]

Plus they'll pass through the sheet rock wall and kill that annoying baby that keeps you up all night. Win win.

Wife might be a bit angry that she spent 9 months in misery and you ended up shooting it, then again she might want to bang more to create another one which would create a win/win/win scenario.

I don't know what your credentials are, but in my experience everything worth shooting a person with will penetrate sheet rock and kill the baby in the next room. I've shot a little bit of everything through walls and into targets. 9MM, 00 buck, or 5.56 all blow right through unless it hits a stud, where the M193 will start to fragment and the 9mm keeps going...

 

[Delta4-3]

So, back in 07 in Baghdad, a certain, unnamed group gave us a pallet of 55g hollow points, and we brought a bunch of other varminty type rounds. They worked just fine. Then again, so did issue stuff that the internet warriors claim otherwise. I posted pictures of the results of someone shot with XM193 and someone shot with 55gr hollow points here once, but they got deleted in about 3 minutes.
That said, I am still kind of picky about what I run in my guns. I do have a couple AR's here and there in the house with short barrels and v-maxes. They act different, and I am happy with how they perform out of said short barrel. Other rifles have 193, and still others match bullets.

It's not just about performance on soft targets. Your primary target may be soft, but is there a chance you need to stop a car? I don't, but if I did I would want something other than a V-Max in my rifle. What distance? What are they wearing? so on and so forth. The longest distance in my house is 20 yards, so I don't worry about long range performance.

 

[Rhyno]

I don't know what your credentials are, but in my experience everything worth shooting a person with will penetrate sheet rock and kill the baby in the next room. I've shot a little bit of everything through walls and into targets. 9MM, 00 buck, or 5.56 all blow right through unless it hits a stud, where the M193 will start to fragment and the 9mm keeps going...

Common sense are all the credentials I need.

Simple fact is if you load your home defense anything with FMJ rounds or heaven forbid penetrater rounds and you miss (or even if you hit and those rounds continue on through as they're designed to do) and you cause damage to other people's property, or people. I hope you are tried for being the retarded criminal you are.

Will just about anything go through drywall? Yea, but a FMJ will go through a person, and drywall and whatever else until is energy is completely expended. A bullet like a vmax designed to expand will expend that energy far faster, and collateral damage will be minimized.

And if your assailant has body armor then FMJs won't likely make a bit of difference anyways.

 

[Red_SC]

55 gr. VMax, COM hits

Common sense are all the credentials I need.

Simple fact is if you load your home defense anything with FMJ rounds or heaven forbid penetrater rounds and you miss (or even if you hit and those rounds continue on through as they're designed to do) and you cause damage to other people's property, or people. I hope you are tried for being the retarded criminal you are.

Will just about anything go through drywall? Yea, but a FMJ will go through a person, and drywall and whatever else until is energy is completely expended. A bullet like a vmax designed to expand will expend that energy far faster, and collateral damage will be minimized.

And if your assailant has body armor then FMJs won't likely make a bit of difference anyways.

The credentials comment wasn't meant to be snarky, just an admittance that you very well may have more experience in this area than I do. The reality is that M193 isn't designed to pencil through, it's designed to fragment. I don't keep FMJ in my rifle- in fact, it's currently loaded with the 55gr Vmax this thread was started about, but it's use is certainly less negligent than 9mm or, heaven forbid, 00 buck. I'll even bet money it penetrates less than the 62gr Barnes bullets I hunt with, and those are designed from the ground up for expansion. As you stated, however, a varmint bullet will certainly penetrate less, which is why I use them.