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6.5 creedmoor AR Only
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
OK I got some numbers. I don't have H4350 for that barrel as I ran out and switched to StaBALL 6.5 on the Proof. I have a lot of data on H4350 in my 22" Ultramatch.
Anyway, I was messing with 41g - 41.5g of StaBALL 6.5. I worked up from 39.6g in 0.3g increments 5 shot groups till I found something right around 41.2. I then started tightening up the increments. This was all with 147 ELD-M's.
Loved to see some data. I have extensive data on the 123L and 139 but never tested the 136 ...
Do you have a can on it?
I re did some calculations and I think I can achieve the same effect at the 2650-2700 range with that bullet or a Berger 130.
Think it’s achievable with an 18-20” Barrel?
Do you have a +2 or +3” gas system on yours as well?
Will those 155 palmas impact a 500 meter target at 2000 fps or more? Just curious, my math says my 135 grain ATIP if launched at 2700 should. For this new upper I’m looking for something that won’t be more than 26-28” with suppressor attached and will fragment out to 500 meters
Finally getting an LMT MARS-H in 6.5CM (20" barrel) in a week or so. Any starting load suggestions? Also looking for a brass suggestion. I use Peterson in my bolt gun, but knowing that LMT overgasses the shit out of their guns (as was the case with my 308 MWS) I don't want to sacrifice premium brass in this gun. Should I buy Hornady, Nosler, or ADG? I can get a bulk 500 pack of Peterson for about $450.00 bucks, thinking that is about right price-wise. Have 1k 140ELD-M but looking to get a bunch of Berger 130 AR Hybrids. My powder choices: N-555, RL16, Varget is what I have on the shelf. Would really like the RL-16 to work as I have a ton of it along with a ton of Varget. N-555 I'm down to 4lbs. I live and shoot in Houston, with 110 degree/80% humidity summers and don't want to develop separate winter/summer loads so RL-16 is probably out. Have a little bit of Sta-ball left so I could develop a load from that. Seems like people like Sta-ball in their gas guns. I'll be using LRP brass probably, and have a choice of 210M, 215m, #34 primers.
So what say you? Where should I start my load dev and any good sources of components that are priced adequately for the times?
So what say you? Where should I start my load dev and any good sources of components that are priced adequately for the times?
Were you limited to the CCI # 34's for LR cases and do you think the #34's are required for Staball ?
I’ve got CCI BR, Win LR and the #34’s…
Here are todays results:
Oddly enough, the velocities lined up almost exact with the powder charges I chose!
BTW, these were shot in my 24” Proof 6.5CM Carbon fiber AR barrel. This rifle might be the most accurate I own.
Here are todays results:
Oddly enough, the velocities lined up almost exact with the powder charges I chose!
BTW, these were shot in my 24” Proof 6.5CM Carbon fiber AR barrel. This rifle might be the most accurate I own.
Anyone have data for 140 ELDM and H4350, Lapua SRP, cci450? 41.1 is showing pressure signs in my JP FMOS with silent capture setup. Seems low to be showing such craters. Kinda baffled.
There’s a ton of info in this thread. Each gun is different, what brass are you using, my fault I see it’s Lapua. Your load does seem low
My money is on the thicker Lapua brass. I have a similar setup, 22" JP barrel, JP Light Weight BCG, and JP Silent Capture Setup. My rifle likes 41.6gr H4350 and 140gr ELDMs. I'm using Hornady brass with CCI34 primers though. No pressure signs.
When I recover ,I'll resume running more Golden Target loads past the LR ,so as to get a baseline established .
Then will proceed to reload Norma cases ,as I needed cases to start with , I figured for $23.50 a box of GT Norma cheaper in the long run than purchasing brass. So far happy with accuracy ,just Not function on a few powders I did reload . MY closest Rifle or big bore pistol Target shed is *165 Yd. *,278,*340,*635, 16" and 12" Steel at 1044-1177 . Fyi in case you're wondering what a target shed is ,see photo . Yardages explained ,MY Range is over undulated terrain ,as across the face of a hill side . So there's canyons ,draws washes or Arroyo's traversing the range . Necessary to place Sheds on higher points as canyons are significant in depth thus blind . Gets Breezy around here and as real wind doping as one could imagine . Flying across no less than #6 washes & canyons past 635 Yd. hence NO sheds .
Then will proceed to reload Norma cases ,as I needed cases to start with , I figured for $23.50 a box of GT Norma cheaper in the long run than purchasing brass. So far happy with accuracy ,just Not function on a few powders I did reload . MY closest Rifle or big bore pistol Target shed is *165 Yd. *,278,*340,*635, 16" and 12" Steel at 1044-1177 . Fyi in case you're wondering what a target shed is ,see photo . Yardages explained ,MY Range is over undulated terrain ,as across the face of a hill side . So there's canyons ,draws washes or Arroyo's traversing the range . Necessary to place Sheds on higher points as canyons are significant in depth thus blind . Gets Breezy around here and as real wind doping as one could imagine . Flying across no less than #6 washes & canyons past 635 Yd. hence NO sheds .
Factory were 143 gr. . I ran 120 gr. bullets as they're match ,after prepping spent cases . I also have 123,129, 130 ,143 and 147 gr. bullets ,as I began purchasing prior to the plandemic ,so as to stockpile provisions ,so too speak .
3/26-27/24 Just messin around
Nosler brass new ,necks true d ,chamfered / debured
Br2
StaBall 6.5
130 ELDM
2.825 col / mag length
44.0 2750 fps
3 @ 44.0 .5 group
3 @ 43.5 .5 group
130 RDF
2.825 col /mag length
3 @ 43.5 .75 group
3 @ 44.0 .75 group
No ejector swipes ,primers "good" , no adjustable gas block ,same spring and buffer that came in 308 lower.
Groups shot off bipod / rear bag.... free recoiled ,yeah I'm that guy.
POA / POI same as 142 loads
24" Shilen Heavy Varmint
Nosler brass new ,necks true d ,chamfered / debured
Br2
StaBall 6.5
130 ELDM
2.825 col / mag length
44.0 2750 fps
3 @ 44.0 .5 group
3 @ 43.5 .5 group
130 RDF
2.825 col /mag length
3 @ 43.5 .75 group
3 @ 44.0 .75 group
No ejector swipes ,primers "good" , no adjustable gas block ,same spring and buffer that came in 308 lower.
Groups shot off bipod / rear bag.... free recoiled ,yeah I'm that guy.
POA / POI same as 142 loads
24" Shilen Heavy Varmint
Have you only tried this with IMR 4350? I am thinking of trying some 120 ELD-M 120's with StaBALL 6.5 this weekend.
Anyone mess around with Sierra 130 game changers? Going to load some up with either h4350 or staball 6.5.
Hey y'all.
Just picked up a 22" SP10 6.5CM.
I'm in California so depressingly I cannot run suppressed, but also I presently have the Rifle length gas as opposed to the +2 so it sounds like from what I've read that's going to make this rifle a little rough on brass anyway.
I'm planning to start ladder dev with 6.5 Staball and either 136 scenars or 147 ELDs.
Regarding brass I was considering buying a 200rd case of Hornady American Gunners 140 grain BTHP's and getting a baseline with it then using that brass for load dev.
Does this sound like a good approach? Any recommendations?
Just picked up a 22" SP10 6.5CM.
I'm in California so depressingly I cannot run suppressed, but also I presently have the Rifle length gas as opposed to the +2 so it sounds like from what I've read that's going to make this rifle a little rough on brass anyway.
I'm planning to start ladder dev with 6.5 Staball and either 136 scenars or 147 ELDs.
Regarding brass I was considering buying a 200rd case of Hornady American Gunners 140 grain BTHP's and getting a baseline with it then using that brass for load dev.
Does this sound like a good approach? Any recommendations?
Yes ; I don't do H4350 but do use 6.5 StaBall 42.5-42.8 gr. gives Me best load at 2.770" . That's the length I've settled on as loading longer has potential for Mag feed issues in MY Rifle . I can go out full at 2.820" individual feed but slamming around can make them grow and that's where MY issue dictated shorter OAL.
I'm new to loading precision for gas rifles(only ever cranked high volume 556) and I'm wondering if you guys just load to max OAL that provides reliable cycling of the bolt rather than trying to kiss the lands?
Can you test this well physically manipulating the bolt by loading longer and longer OAL until you get extraction issues, or do you have to charge rounds up and fire them to get a dependable read on whether you've overextended or not?
First I'd NOT waste money on Scenars Lapua bullets period ditto with Berger , UNTIL You break the rifle in . Nothing wrong with Hornady cases I use them also but prefer Norma ,so IF it were Me I'd opt for Norma as prices are near identical . Either way you're safe ,so YOU make that call .
StaBall 6.5 give real decent accuracy out of MY weapons ,not quite as good as VV powder but would hate to live on the difference .
I should think 42.5-42.8 gr. with 136's or 139 gr. would be safe enough . Depending upon your OAL ?. As I've mentioned previously I run ALL MY 6.5 CM at 2.770" as it negates ANY feed issues for me and accuracy is Spot on . Sorry don't shoot 147's with either of those powders . I'll use VV 555 or 560 .
NOT a sound practice in a semi or full auto to kiss the lands !!. Remember 6.5 aren't crimped and can slip depending upon recoil and neck tension .
I witnessed a .308 up into the lands scenario at a shoot and although nobody was hurt ,I'd NEVER of bought that rifle !.
Knowing YOUR chamber is PARAMOUNT ,length and staying back Minimum 0.015" IMO 0.020" is Better .
I've run stuff as close as 0.005" and Never once realized any accuracy advantage . Copper bullets such as Barnes often want 0.050" or more .
It's a kind of a thing YOU have to shoot verify and adjust accordingly . I only suggest staying 0.020" off the lands from having shot near everything over the last 60 years and experience . Others will no doubt have their own advise but being SAFE and NOT hurting yourself or weapon is the KEY too success IMO .
Having worked in the powder industry back when Dinosaurs roamed taught ME to error on the side of caution . Meaning published Book loads from reputable manufacturers are Shooters Bibles and 96% of the time Gospel . There are so many factors which effect loads ,it's near impossible to list them all . How many people even consider humidity when they reload ?. Yet it most certainly affects Charge energy . Heavy humidity packed into a round makes it burn faster ,so PRESSURE GOES UP . Pressure is Your friend and WORST enemy . One MUST stay within the cartridges realm of Pressure margin ,otherwise it's possible to become a casualty .
Pressure signs generally show in the primer 1 St. path of least resistance ,next ejector groove marks then neck shoulder split and when things go really south case head separation . The latter is generally contributed to a extensively reloaded case which has stretched too thin .
I'm here to tell You Pressure doesn't give a rats ass about new or used cases ,if it's over the rated SAAMI allowances ALL BETS ARE OFF !.
I've still got shrapnel scars from #2 trap stations away from a home loader ,who's gun went sideways up and backwards !.
Really respect and appreciate this wisdom you're dropping thanks for the guidance.
I have an AP 22" w/rifle length gas that doesn't destroy or deform brass and done without an agb. Also using standard weight spring and carbine buffer. Port size is key!
I don't want to be one of those guys that's imagining problems with a rifle I've never shot, but I can imagine due to this design it's something I might end up wrestling with.
I've just got to get out and shoot it a bunch and see. I think I'll be a lot more sensitive to pressure indicators than I possibly was with prior experiences with bolt guns though.
That's typical on difference between the 2, but then again I've never encountered 2 bolt guns the same. Close, but not the same. ymmv?
Not totally unrelated, but does pressure signs indicate max saami pressures or just what that gun/cartridge is maxed at? I don't have any way to measure and using load data from published manufacturers varies as much as 1 gun to the next as chambers and headspacing aren't linear.
Do any of you really notice recoil differences between 123-143 or even 147 ,in your AR 6.5 CM ?.
Maybe I'm losing sensitivity ( If I ever had any ? )
I feel mild recoil regardless of bullet weight . For grins I ran one of MY AR'S in .308 and I don't feel any significant difference between 150 ,155, 168 a tad more perhaps with 173 but it's probably perceived rather than actual . In the M14 I feel a difference between 150 & 173 slightly more jarring if that makes sense .
Maybe I'm losing sensitivity ( If I ever had any ? )
I feel mild recoil regardless of bullet weight . For grins I ran one of MY AR'S in .308 and I don't feel any significant difference between 150 ,155, 168 a tad more perhaps with 173 but it's probably perceived rather than actual . In the M14 I feel a difference between 150 & 173 slightly more jarring if that makes sense .I can’t say that I feel more recoil when shooting 120‘s vs. 147’s. I run a Dead Air Keymo brake and it does a good job across the board. I can 100% feel more recoil when I shoot with a suppressor, but it’s a firm push that has a longer duration instead of a quick kick. I don’t mind it and the lack of concussion/blast is worth it.
I do load development without the suppressor though.
I do load development without the suppressor though.
I have had extremely good luck with them in both bolt and gas rifles. The photo below was at 1160 yards with a 20" proof barrel 6.5cm (gasser). This is running varget, which I know most folks are using other powders. The varget does not always work well with gassers, but for some reason mine loves it. I will say the game changers seem to like too be pushed to the edge in terms of MV, I have shot them in quite a few rifles now and am currently working on a 20" 6.5 PRC bolt rifle.
Hope to be back on Range next week ,as I've several loads I was about to test . However Life got in the way AGAIN !.
Had to have another surgery and if that wasn't bad enough ,now have to see a hand wrist specialist . Seems either and old hang glider #56 years ago injury or a new one ?, has surfaced with a fracture . So Monday having him look at it .
Bit of advice DON'T GET OLD , More shit happens than you can imagine
Had to have another surgery and if that wasn't bad enough ,now have to see a hand wrist specialist . Seems either and old hang glider #56 years ago injury or a new one ?, has surfaced with a fracture . So Monday having him look at it .
Bit of advice DON'T GET OLD , More shit happens than you can imagine
I haven’t tested the 123’s in my AR10 but I can say for sure can tell difference with it in lightweight bolt gunDo any of you really notice recoil differences between 123-143 or even 147 ,in your AR 6.5 CM ?.
Maybe I'm losing sensitivity ( If I ever had any ? )
lighter and faster (in my experiences) have less recoil than slower and heavier bullets. the exit/muzzle pressure is where the recoil is generating. trying to use the same powder with both/any/all weights can be difficult to get 100% test results as not all powders are acceptable with lightest to heaviest bullets per cartridge and calibers. testing with varget or imr4064 in 308win could be your best choices? if my testing on a 5.5# 308win ar10 goes as it should, it should have less felt recoil than 1 @ 4# heavier using same ammo (pmc bronze m80 147gr fmj).Hope to be back on Range next week ,as I've several loads I was about to test . However Life got in the way AGAIN !.
Had to have another surgery and if that wasn't bad enough ,now have to see a hand wrist specialist . Seems either and old hang glider #56 years ago injury or a new one ?, has surfaced with a fracture . So Monday having him look at it .
Bit of advice DON'T GET OLD , More shit happens than you can imagine
Yep heavier the projectile more felt recoil , Newton's law of physics ,in particular 3 Rd. law . However I personally don't feel additional recoil in a Gas gun 120-140 feels the same ,yet when using 147's 153's Yes more Bump as the mass has become sufficient to transfer via Buffer and spring .
https://www.britannica.com/science/Newtons-laws-of-motion/Newtons-second-law-F-ma
https://www.britannica.com/science/Newtons-laws-of-motion/Newtons-second-law-F-ma
reasons for which having the gas port moved further/closer to the muzzle and in doing so you can reduce reciprocating mass and have less recoil, felt or not. port size will have an affect.
Hello Sir, I realize I’m responding to a two year old message, but do you recall where you got the clamp type vise in the picture? Thanks, LyleAbout to start reloading for my Adams Arms P2 in 6.5 Creed with the factory Voodoo 18" barrel, it seems to be under 1 moa at 1,000. I shoot suppressed through an Omega 300, so brass gets kinda carboned up. I've had many years experience loading pistol and shotgun but zero on rifle. I'm an engineer by training. I'm open to hearing any wisdom about my plan below.
I scored 4lbs of Staball 6.5, and 1,000 CCI BR primers. I would have preferred CCI 34's, but I've never had a slam fire in my life and I'll never powder on top of a proud primer. I've got 400 once fired Hornady brass from this gun. I'll start with 140 ELD-M's for now since that was the factory stuff I shot well ish to 1,000 yards.
With Forster CoAxe being unobtainable I'll grab a RCBS Rebel in the next couple of weeks. I've ordered the Redding National Match dies and I'm backordered on the overdue VLD seating stem. I'll also grab a RCBS Link for powder and verify it on my Hornady balance scale. I figure I'll crimp every round for the consistency.
I'll try the Frankford Arsenal Case thingey that power trims and has 3 other powered stations for chamfering, deburring, etc. Same with their wet tumbler for cleaning, and then dry vibrator for lube removal.
I thought I'd start with a COL of 2.800 and work a 5 step ladder at .3 grains and 5 shots per rung. Watching for pressure signs and not exceeding max published load, which appears to be 43.7 gr of StaBall. Then, I thought I'd shoot a 5 shot ladder expanding my COL from 2.800 to the 2.830 that is max for the m118LR Magpul mags. We'll see if I can shoot well enough to spot the best COL / group.
Is that the right order? Should I start at 2.830 and work towards shorter instead? I've heard the ELD bullets don't mind a longer jump, so am I too worried About COL??
Feel free to straighten me out.
View attachment 7819994
Took me a while to find it.
HySkore Armorer's Gun Vise Metal Black
The Hyskore Portable Armorer's Vise is a solid, mobile and convenient firearm maintenance device that can be used at the workbench, the range and nearly...
www.midwayusa.com
Thank you.Took me a while to find it.
HySkore Armorer's Gun Vise Metal Black
The Hyskore Portable Armorer's Vise is a solid, mobile and convenient firearm maintenance device that can be used at the workbench, the range and nearly...
Several loads. All 2.280 COAL, starline SRP brass and CCI450. Tested in 70-110 degree weather . Shot out of a 18 inch criterion barreled Aero M5 with a Jp SCS buffer and superlative arms gas block
STABALL 6.5:
147gr ELDM: 42.8gr staball 6.5 2550 fps SD 10, was grouping .6 MOA (10 shots)
130gr Berger AR Hybrid: 44.5gr 2710fps 12.4 SD (10 shots) .67 MOA
142gr SMK: 43.0gr 2571fps SD 13 (29 shot string) .5 MOA
130gr ELDM: 44.5gr 2824fps SD 6.6 (10 shots)
.62 MOA
H4350
142gr SMK: 41.3gr 552 SD 4.6 (10 shot) .6 MOA
130gr SMK: 42.8gr 2702 FPS SD 4.4 (10 shot) .68 MOA
123gr SMK: 45.2gr 2866 fps SD 4.0 (10 shot) .45 MOA
140 Berger Hybrid Target: 40.5gr (2500fps SD 3.5 (10 shot) .56 MOA
130 Berger AR Hybrid: 42.2gr 2650fps SD 8 (2.675 COAL) .58 MOA
120 ELDM: 43.1 2757 fps SD 8.8 (10 shot) .45 MOA group
Couldn’t get my 135 A Tips to shoot well out of the AR10, if anyone has any loads for them I’d love to try them again (they look cool). Staball is not consistent velocity wise if it’s above 100 or it has been sitting in the sun on a hot (above 90 degree) day. I had some crazy velocity jumps with my ball powders (100-200 degrees) shooting last weekend and basically ruined my 6ARC brass doing it. So now I know to bump the loads down by about .5-1 grain with staball if I’m gonna shoot it in hot weather. Still works great accuracy wise but I see why H4350 is the king of consistency. Also I didn’t anneal until the 7th firing and I noticed a return to small groups where almost all bullets are touching with a random flier or two. My criterion has been rode hard and put away wet with almost 3k rounds down the tube so I suspect it’ll be opening up soon. Also it’s hard as hell to shoot good groups prone in Texas during the summer with all the insects trying to eat you, mirage, the sun beating down, etc. as my range is just outside no buildings. But it is for sure a shooter.
STABALL 6.5:
147gr ELDM: 42.8gr staball 6.5 2550 fps SD 10, was grouping .6 MOA (10 shots)
130gr Berger AR Hybrid: 44.5gr 2710fps 12.4 SD (10 shots) .67 MOA
142gr SMK: 43.0gr 2571fps SD 13 (29 shot string) .5 MOA
130gr ELDM: 44.5gr 2824fps SD 6.6 (10 shots)
.62 MOA
H4350
142gr SMK: 41.3gr 552 SD 4.6 (10 shot) .6 MOA
130gr SMK: 42.8gr 2702 FPS SD 4.4 (10 shot) .68 MOA
123gr SMK: 45.2gr 2866 fps SD 4.0 (10 shot) .45 MOA
140 Berger Hybrid Target: 40.5gr (2500fps SD 3.5 (10 shot) .56 MOA
130 Berger AR Hybrid: 42.2gr 2650fps SD 8 (2.675 COAL) .58 MOA
120 ELDM: 43.1 2757 fps SD 8.8 (10 shot) .45 MOA group
Couldn’t get my 135 A Tips to shoot well out of the AR10, if anyone has any loads for them I’d love to try them again (they look cool). Staball is not consistent velocity wise if it’s above 100 or it has been sitting in the sun on a hot (above 90 degree) day. I had some crazy velocity jumps with my ball powders (100-200 degrees) shooting last weekend and basically ruined my 6ARC brass doing it. So now I know to bump the loads down by about .5-1 grain with staball if I’m gonna shoot it in hot weather. Still works great accuracy wise but I see why H4350 is the king of consistency. Also I didn’t anneal until the 7th firing and I noticed a return to small groups where almost all bullets are touching with a random flier or two. My criterion has been rode hard and put away wet with almost 3k rounds down the tube so I suspect it’ll be opening up soon. Also it’s hard as hell to shoot good groups prone in Texas during the summer with all the insects trying to eat you, mirage, the sun beating down, etc. as my range is just outside no buildings. But it is for sure a shooter.
