I am from St.louis and my uncle is thinking about joining the bench rest club so someday ill probably visit and watch
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6.5 creedmoor vs .308
- Thread starter The salmon
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- .308 6.5 creedmoor
Like others have said, have you thought seriously about purchasing a .22LR? Your other calibers will work well with white tail. If your are just wanting only the "custom" look or feel, a decent Ruger 10/22 or Savage bolt gun will do nicely. Ammo is cheaper, inexpensive scopes will work well ($200-$500 range), and practice can still be had out to 200 yards. I have found that shooting a 22 is very challenging to shoot well out to 200 yards. I practice this fairly often and find that reading wind and shooting my other calibers seems to come a tad bit easier or at least more forgiving. Just my opinion. It was not to terribly long ago that I was 13 and dreaming of super duper custom guns, but now at the ripe old age of 24, I've learned that practice and experience has changed my thinking of what I want in a rifle. Slow down, practice, dream, practice some more, read these forums, practice some more... and then apply your learnings to what you want in a rifle. Just my 2 cents.
Also sit down and read these forums. These gents are a wealth of knowledge and their opinion should be seriously considered. I'm sure many have started right where you are and they are passing their knowledge and experiences on to you. If you heed their advice you will be more than happy about it! I know this from personal experience.
Also sit down and read these forums. These gents are a wealth of knowledge and their opinion should be seriously considered. I'm sure many have started right where you are and they are passing their knowledge and experiences on to you. If you heed their advice you will be more than happy about it! I know this from personal experience.
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My advice is going to be somewhat different. Long range precision shooting requires a lot more equipment than a capable rifle. The costs spiral into the ionosphere as the quality goes up to say nothing of the cost of quality ammo. None of this equipment makes you a better shot. What it does is maximize your ability to shoot to your existing skill level.
Shooting is a skill that requires practice. Developing this skill can be accelerated by good coaching. Buy a quality .22 target rifle. Find an ammo that performs well. A .22 will allow to shoot at any outdoor range and many indoor ranges. Go to an NRA Appleseed shoot. Find a club that holds various .22 competitions. Get coached. There is a lot more to a .22 than bullseye shooting. .22 silhouette, .22 tactical, long range .22 and a host of others are fun and will improve anybody's skills. The .22 will allow you access and offer you the opportunity to shoot in a volume that will actually allow you to become a real shooter. The .22 will also develop those skills without the inherent risk of developing a flinch that many of us strive to overcome every time we shoot something bigger than a .223. These skills will transfer to long range precision and you can be legitimately concerned whether your equipment is limiting your performance.
This is not from an adult talking to a youngster. I've been shooting for almost 60yrs and invested way over a hundred grand. It has influenced where I live, the dogs I've owned, the vacations I've taken and lord knows what else. This is one guy talking to another guy and telling you what I wish I had done.
Edit. Snoball is faster on the keyboard and his advice is sound particularly as regards "dream".
Shooting is a skill that requires practice. Developing this skill can be accelerated by good coaching. Buy a quality .22 target rifle. Find an ammo that performs well. A .22 will allow to shoot at any outdoor range and many indoor ranges. Go to an NRA Appleseed shoot. Find a club that holds various .22 competitions. Get coached. There is a lot more to a .22 than bullseye shooting. .22 silhouette, .22 tactical, long range .22 and a host of others are fun and will improve anybody's skills. The .22 will allow you access and offer you the opportunity to shoot in a volume that will actually allow you to become a real shooter. The .22 will also develop those skills without the inherent risk of developing a flinch that many of us strive to overcome every time we shoot something bigger than a .223. These skills will transfer to long range precision and you can be legitimately concerned whether your equipment is limiting your performance.
This is not from an adult talking to a youngster. I've been shooting for almost 60yrs and invested way over a hundred grand. It has influenced where I live, the dogs I've owned, the vacations I've taken and lord knows what else. This is one guy talking to another guy and telling you what I wish I had done.
Edit. Snoball is faster on the keyboard and his advice is sound particularly as regards "dream".
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I dont' even see how this thread got 4 pages.
6.5 Creedmoor > .308 win.
End of story, it's better in every way. Flatter, cuts wind better, less recoil, and carries more energy at distance. Even on game I believe 6.5 Creedmoor is better.
At 600 yards a
130g berger VLD 1219.9 ft lbs of energy.
130g SST 1075.8, ft lbs of energy.
140g Berger VLD 1263.4 ft lbs of energy.
140 AMAX 1219.8ft lbs of energy.
.308
210g Berger VLD 1232.7 ft lbs of energy.
178 amax 1111.1 ft lbs of energy.
165 interbond 1069.3ft lbs of energy.
/thread
6.5 Creedmoor > .308 win.
End of story, it's better in every way. Flatter, cuts wind better, less recoil, and carries more energy at distance. Even on game I believe 6.5 Creedmoor is better.
At 600 yards a
130g berger VLD 1219.9 ft lbs of energy.
130g SST 1075.8, ft lbs of energy.
140g Berger VLD 1263.4 ft lbs of energy.
140 AMAX 1219.8ft lbs of energy.
.308
210g Berger VLD 1232.7 ft lbs of energy.
178 amax 1111.1 ft lbs of energy.
165 interbond 1069.3ft lbs of energy.
/thread
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I do own a 22 lr but it doesnt have a scope or a mount for scope so without a scope i dont know how i would be able to read the wind and make formulas without a scope since i wont be able to dial it in on the scope
If you've got a 22LR but no scope, you might remedy that before you start diving into WAY more expensive centerfires. Get a base, a set of rings, and a Mil/mil scope and get to sending rounds downrange. You ain't lived until you've made hits with a 22LR at 300yd with ANY wind blowing.
Also, homework to OP:
Assignment 1: Less time posting on Snipershide, more time reading on Snipershide
Assignment 2: Less time on Snipershide, more time on YouPorn
Also, homework to OP:
Assignment 1: Less time posting on Snipershide, more time reading on Snipershide
Assignment 2: Less time on Snipershide, more time on YouPorn
You sir have been among the few to make me just shoot milk through my nose laughing..... I don't condone young adults/children watching youporn.......... but that was funny as hell!
Salmon(I think many feel this is a better name than your previous...you have shown your maturity and respect for changing it),
I'm hoping your own the way to the nearest shooting range with that 22.
My short answer is no.
You need to look at the list I provided and work from that. Wring out your rifle and loads and everything else at 100 yards. Period.
I don't care if you shoot a deer 300 with a duplex reticle.
You need to start building data. At 100. And testing your gear that you currently have.
Your wind calls right now consist of POA/POI at zero wind. To any POA/POI shift at full value wind. All at 100 yards.
As for "youth" competitions. Bull-puckey. You work your way through the list above. Once done, you can find a local match. Doesn't matter what it is. I don't know of any matches or practices that wouldn't let a 13 year old shoot unofficially down at the end of the line. As long as they aren't crazy slammed.
The sooner you start shooting, the sooner you start living. Get to work.
TTR
Thank you for the compliment about my maturity, i was not trying to offend or disrespect any military members or anyone else, i just want to be a navy seal when i grow up
My 2 goals in life are
1: join the military
2: get married
I have nothing but respect for military members, i think anyone who disrespects any military should be punished
"Stand behind our soldiers or in front of them" -dont know who said it
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Tell this to the Scandanavians who hunt their moose and reindeer with the 6.5 Swede.
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Swim your way to a project appleseed shoot.
You'll be able to learn much, both history and marksmanship.
You'll be able to learn much, both history and marksmanship.
Glad you changed your name......I agree on the maturity. I have been reading the boards non-stop for the last few years trying to learn the basics.......ALL the basics have litterally been discussed already, so make it a priority to use the Search function.
On a side note, you have way too many more quality years of chasing tail before your should be thinking about your second goal.....way too many.
On a side note, you have way too many more quality years of chasing tail before your should be thinking about your second goal.....way too many.
There is a wealth of great information on this site alone, and a wealth of great shooters to ask advice. When I was your age. I shot at least 1000 rounds of .22 ammo a month, probably more like 2k. You need a trainer rifle, learn the fundamentals, trigger control, shooting positions, etc. A .243 is a great cartridge, I have worn out several barrels, my kids hunt with and shoot a .243. They start with a BB gun, move to open sight .22's, scoped, then on to small center fire .222 or .223. There is absolutely nothing better than trigger time, you can't learn it on here.
There is a lot of eye candy on this sight, don't get hung up on it ....yet. I personally own several myself, but I still love to pick up an old .22 and just shoot the crap out of it, sucky part about that right now is ammo is tough to get your hands on. I saved my pennies and got my first .243 when I was 12, I still have and still shoot that rifle, a lot. Certainly I have better guns, but I have killed more animals with it than any of my others put together. I did predator control for a living for 8 years, so there has been a few. Find something cheap to shoot and a place to shoot it and just go figure it out, you put the rounds down range and it will come to you. Don't just shoot on the nice days, go practice any chance you get in any weather.
There is a lot of eye candy on this sight, don't get hung up on it ....yet. I personally own several myself, but I still love to pick up an old .22 and just shoot the crap out of it, sucky part about that right now is ammo is tough to get your hands on. I saved my pennies and got my first .243 when I was 12, I still have and still shoot that rifle, a lot. Certainly I have better guns, but I have killed more animals with it than any of my others put together. I did predator control for a living for 8 years, so there has been a few. Find something cheap to shoot and a place to shoot it and just go figure it out, you put the rounds down range and it will come to you. Don't just shoot on the nice days, go practice any chance you get in any weather.
.260 and don't look back. It trumps both of those calibers. And it's almost as easy on the barrel as .308
Ya i get what your saying but since its 2 years before I can drive i can only go to the range about once or twice a year because my uncle is a firefighter and has a really weird schedule
salmon -
A little more advice:
Ignore the guys who give "holy grail" recommendations. EVERYTHING is a tradeoff. A gain here means a loss over there.
"Reading wind" can't be taught. It can barely be learned. Its a seat of the pants guess.
A little more advice:
Ignore the guys who give "holy grail" recommendations. EVERYTHING is a tradeoff. A gain here means a loss over there.
"Reading wind" can't be taught. It can barely be learned. Its a seat of the pants guess.
I never saw the point to the 6.5 Creed for long range tactical precision rifle matches. It was developed for 300m shooting and excels at that. But my .308 shoots either a .580 BC bullet at 2740fps or a .508 BC bullet at 2950fps. The 6.5 factory ammo shoots a .550BC bullet at 2820fps. Run the numbers: Not much difference. If I want to take advantage of BC I'll shoot 7mm.
The 140 Amax is .584 Litz G1, not 0.550. They're also what, half the price of JLKs?
A more fair comparison with your 308 handloads would be 130 JLKs @ 3000fps or 140 Hybrids @ 2850+...
A more fair comparison with your 308 handloads would be 130 JLKs @ 3000fps or 140 Hybrids @ 2850+...
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Two words: bullet drop.
Or if you prefer a lot of words, my 168 gr Amax are most accurate at 2650 fps. My 140 Amax are most accurate at 2780 fps. Wind drift is about equivalent btwn the two. Ergo, the 308's are dropping like a rock past 600 yards, and the 6.5 aren't.
garandman said:
The 140s should drift about 10.5" less at 600yd than the 168s; at 1000 its more than 40" less drift.
This is a long read but worth it. And a stable case for going to .260. This is not my article however.
"One of the big topics in the Gun rags is the new 6.5 Creedmoore cartridge. It's the usual yada, yada, yada. It's the latest and greatest so go out and buy one right away.
Lets look at the truth about the new cartridge (something you will not find in the gun rags).
Is it an accurate cartridge, yes. It has the potential (with modifications) to the rifle for shooting consistent ½ inch groups. But will an off the shelf rifle do it. Most likely it will not without modifications. More on this later.
Is it better than the .308. For all practical purposes, no. This statement you will never see in the gun rags.
The 6.5 Creedmoore development came about because Dave Tubb, a famous high power rifle shooter was looking for an accurate, efficient cartridge with low recoil which results in the low fatigue factor when shooting the national match course. This he achieved. But should the average guy scrape out his match grade .308 rifle for the newer 6.5 Creedmoore. I would say no unless your bank account is unlimited, as your gain in accuracy is hardly worth discussing. In my own testing the difference was barely noticeable between the match grade .308 and the Creedmoore. Recoil was slightly less with the 6.5.
Now here is the real draw back, and one that is not discussed in the Gun Rags. The barrel life with the 6.5 Creedmoore is a scant 4,000 rounds. Sounds like a lot of barrel life to the once a year hunter but to the target shooter as you are talking about less than a 2 year barrel life. The .308 will go at least 6,000 and if given good care can go as long as 8,000 rounds. This is from my experience and the experience of some of my fellow shooters that I have competed with.
As a matter of fact if I decide to someday get an AR in a 6.5 caliber is will not be in the expensive to buy 6.5 Creedmoore case but it would be in the .260 Remington caliber as I can make all the brass I want out of .308 cases which is much cheaper than buying the super expensive 6.5 Creedmoore cases. The .260 also has more powder capacity if I want to go to the heavier bullets. It must be remembered that the Creedmoore was designed to shoot the 120 grain and 140 grain pills not the heavier 160 grain bullets. Which by the way there is a very big lack of in the match grade bullets for sale by the bullet making companies. This of course is a very big mistake as the heavier slugs, even though they travel a bit slower would be better in the wind but the recoil would also be more of a factor.
With my various .308 match guns, given that you have a scope of 20 power or higher, a match grade trigger that goes off in the ounces, not the pounds and you are using match grade ammo will consistently shoot just a hair over ½ inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. The 6.5 calibers will consistently shoot ½ inch under the same conditions. But it will not do it with a stock AR15 gun with their very bad triggers. A match trigger (in the ounces) is a must for either the 6.5 or .308 calibers. This hardly justifies scrapping out any expensive match grade .308 rifle you may already own. Again this fair comparison will never been discussed in any gun rags. It is there job to sell new guns not give a fair analysis of any new cartridge or firearm that has recently come on the market.
Now we come to another problem in the AR guns. The trigger. Although Jewel makes an outstanding trigger for the AR .223 frame guns, it does not for the larger frame 6.5 Creedmoore gun. A quick call to the Jewell factor gave me the response that a person could install their trigger in the large frame AR15 but they would not guarantee it would not occasionally misfire. A friend of mine will soon do some testing on a .308 AR with the Jewel trigger to see if how many, if any misfires he gets.
Another call to a different trigger manufacturer by the name of Geissele stated that his trigger will work in the large frame AR guns. But here is the rub. My friend purchases the trigger and he was not impressed with it as much as the supper quality Jewel trigger.
One think I almost forgot to mention and that is that the Creedmoore cartridge is straighter and not as tapered as the .260 Remington. Gun-smithing 101 will tell you that a tapered cartridge has a tendency to feed better and extract better especially when the chamber is very dirty. Again the .260 Remington is the better cartridge.
The .260 Remington after becoming almost extinct in hunting rifles because of the lack of heavy bullets for it this round just may have risen like a Phoenix from its own ashes and have a new lease on life in target shooting. I think if the public and the ammo makers had been up on their history they would have realized that 6.5 cartridges like the 6.5 Rimmed Mannlicher and 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer(rimless) were killing big game as big as elephants 100years ago and doing it with heavy 160 grain bullets a moderate velocities. Today with the "velocity is everything school of thought" any bullet traveling less than 3,000 fps is considered completely useless to all except the people have hunted all their lives with "classic cartridges" and know how good they really are."
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How do find a bc also i found this wind formula and im wondering if its right
Wind speed x range divided by constant
What about comparing terminal ballistics between the .308 and the 6's. Is there a big difference between the two rounds?
Does anyone have brian litz book applied ballistics (i think thats the book u guys r talking about) up for sale
1. 260 does not trump a 6.5 Creedmoor. They are almost ballistically identical
2. A 260's barrel life is nowhere near the 308 life span
That pretty much sums it up. And whoever wrote that article should go back to school for a writing class. That is awful writing!
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Ok, You guys seem to know what your talking about? That said a table of comparative B.C. would help as I am very curious now as to which is the better between 6.5 creedmore and .260 Rem. I have not yet seen clear reasons to go with one over the other. seems like B.C. would be a place to start. Energy delivery at various distances would be another telling measure perhaps. So, in other words data is king vs. the anecdotal evidence most of us seem to be providing, myself included.
Let us know if you have any empirical data as many of us are curious.
Sam,
I know you're only 13, and CLEARLY you're not your typical teenager, but don't be lazy now, get onto the 'For Sale' threads and LOOK. The book is in it's second edition now, so someone might be selling the first edition. If not, try Sinclair International, Cabelas, or Brownels. Google them.
I'll help you out as much as I can with what I believe is sound advice, but you've got to put some leg work in yourself. You don't get spoon fed on the 'Hide, my boy. This aint school!
There you go. You now have 2 items to put on your b'day/Christmas list;
1. Wind Meter (Try to get a Kestrel, even the bottom of the range one, they ARE better than the Caldwell ones. I have both, so it's an honest opinion)
2. Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting. ISBN 978-0-615-45256-2. $49-95. Pub Applied Ballistics LLC. GeoVario LLC - Web Access. Search for Bryan on the 'Hide and hit him up for a copy, you never know...
Keep asking questions. The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask. You don't know what you don't know, so keep reading. I have, what, 450 posts, but I've been READING here for 5 years! That's literally 2 or 3 hours a week, for 5 years. Man, it's JUST LIKE being in college!
Keep your enthusiasm going. 95% of the guys here will honestly try to help you.
Neil
What the hell is "your CLEARLY not your typical teenager" supposed to mean!!
Just kidding, just kidding, just kidding
Thanks neil youve been a huge help
Sam
The BC's will be the same (give or take, velocity has a function in BC), as the bullet, the actual PROJECTILE, is the same from each cartridge. The cartridge case is only the LAUNCH VEHICLE for the projectile, it's simply the vessel that holds the powder.
Check out what I said earlier about Useful Case Capacity, 3.12 vs 3.32, the difference is 0.2cc, BUT, and this is a huge BUT, The 6.5CM is designed to leave more of the bullet out of the front of the case, so the USEABLE case capacity of the CM is theoretically more.
As many have said, BALLISTICALLY there is nothing between them, and a couple of other cases as well, but lets not muddy the water. The issue becomes one of case availability, inherent accuracy, COST, etc. ,etc., etc.
Here are some numbers from the Berger reloading manual;
.260Rem 140gn Match Hybrid Bullet, G7 bc 0.317, max mv 2704fps with 41.0grn of IMR 4831
6.5CM EXACT SAME BULLET, so same bc of 0.317, max mv 2700fps with 42.4grn of Ramshot Hunter
6.5x47Lapua, SAME bullet, same bc. max mv 2698fps with 38.9grn of H4350.
As we say in my neck of the woods, "Not a kick up the arse between them"
The question becomes, as I said, which cases can I get hold of, what powder do I have/can I get, how much are the Lapua cases going to cost me vs Remington cases. Are Remington (I use this as an example, because that's what I have) cases more available than 6.5CM? (Errrr, YES! In my local Sportsmans Warehouse recently I couldn't get .223, .243, .260, 7mm-08, .308, .300WM, or even .303British. But I COULD get 100 6.5CM cases. Are they cheap? NO, but at least I could get 'em).
HTH,
Neil
Check out what I said earlier about Useful Case Capacity, 3.12 vs 3.32, the difference is 0.2cc, BUT, and this is a huge BUT, The 6.5CM is designed to leave more of the bullet out of the front of the case, so the USEABLE case capacity of the CM is theoretically more.
As many have said, BALLISTICALLY there is nothing between them, and a couple of other cases as well, but lets not muddy the water. The issue becomes one of case availability, inherent accuracy, COST, etc. ,etc., etc.
Here are some numbers from the Berger reloading manual;
.260Rem 140gn Match Hybrid Bullet, G7 bc 0.317, max mv 2704fps with 41.0grn of IMR 4831
6.5CM EXACT SAME BULLET, so same bc of 0.317, max mv 2700fps with 42.4grn of Ramshot Hunter
6.5x47Lapua, SAME bullet, same bc. max mv 2698fps with 38.9grn of H4350.
As we say in my neck of the woods, "Not a kick up the arse between them"
The question becomes, as I said, which cases can I get hold of, what powder do I have/can I get, how much are the Lapua cases going to cost me vs Remington cases. Are Remington (I use this as an example, because that's what I have) cases more available than 6.5CM? (Errrr, YES! In my local Sportsmans Warehouse recently I couldn't get .223, .243, .260, 7mm-08, .308, .300WM, or even .303British. But I COULD get 100 6.5CM cases. Are they cheap? NO, but at least I could get 'em).
HTH,
Neil
6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Remington are, for all intents and purposes, identical. They shoot the same 6.5mm bullets at roughly the same velocity from a given length of barrel.
Reasons to go with one vs. the other?
6.5 Creedmoor is a bit shorter, making it easier to feed from a magazine. Hornady makes excellent match ammo that is reasonably priced. Brass is reasonably priced and good quality, but Hornady is the only game in town unless you want to form it yourself.
260 is based on 308 Win and can be formed from that brass. It has a bit more case capacity so it might be a hair faster for a reloader, especially if the chamber is throated long to fully take advantage of the capacity. Lapua brass is available, but the cartridge is a reloading proposition unless you buy Copper Creek or Southwest Ammo (Federal is about a year late in bringing their 142gr FGMM to market).
I've shot 260 for over a decade (have a late 90s factory 700 with 1:9 barrel) so I went that route with my precision rifles, but if I was getting my very first 6.5, I'd choose the Creedmoor because I could buy a case of factory ammo, shoot it, then either reload the brass or sell the once-fired to subsidize another case of factory ammo.
And I'd take a Creedmoor every day and twice on Sunday over a 308.
Sam,
I think you already know the answer to that!!
Round here the typical teenager is surly, rude, disrespectful, and wants to spend all day lying in bed!
Since you're polite, respectful (Changing your handle to avoid causing offence), and above all WILLING AND KEEN TO LEARN, that pretty much makes you atypical in my book!
Keep learning!
Neil
I think you already know the answer to that!!
Round here the typical teenager is surly, rude, disrespectful, and wants to spend all day lying in bed!
Since you're polite, respectful (Changing your handle to avoid causing offence), and above all WILLING AND KEEN TO LEARN, that pretty much makes you atypical in my book!
Keep learning!
Neil
2780 is slow for a Creedmoor. I run mine at 2930fps with the 140 AMAX. 2850 is usually pretty easy unless you neutered yourself with a short barrel.
What bullet you using with a .580 BC and getting 2740fps with a .308?
Haha thank you that means a lot this is why i joined the hide, because everyone is awesome
Sincerely and respectfully,
Sam
Depends how you run it. As in shooting schedule. Is this a target gun, match gun, paper puncher?
3500-4000 rounds is about ball park. Maybe more if running factory loads like Hornady.
180JLK VLD long boat-tails. I can get 2765, but with pressure signs. I see the Creedmoor guys running very long barrels with factory ammo in order to stay above 2800. I suppose it would be fine to handload it to 2900+, but I do that with a .260 loaded long with .620BC JLKs. The advantage of the Creed is (affordable) factory ammo.
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