Probably a little too high. I would start a grain or more lower. Hornady’s 11’th edition manual lists the max RL-16 load for a 140 gn as 42.1 gn, and says it is good for slightly better than 2800 fps.
Minimum load is 35.3 gn.
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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Probably a little too high. I would start a grain or more lower. Hornady’s 11’th edition manual lists the max RL-16 load for a 140 gn as 42.1 gn, and says it is good for slightly better than 2800 fps.
Minimum load is 35.3 gn.
Thanks for the feedback!
I have the Hornady 10th edition which does not list RL 16. And Alliant's site does not list the Hornady 140gr BTHP with RL 16. As I mentioned earlier Alliant shows 42.6 gr for the 140 SST and 43.8 gr for the 140gr Sierra SBT. Does not specify that this is max load, so I am assuming this is their accuracy load?
Anyway thanks for the info as the combination I want to try does not seem to be listed anywhere that I have found. Might have to pick up a Hornady 11th edition.
This load is using the Sierra 130gr SMK (#1429), Alpha brass, CCI 200 primer, and 41.9gr RL16. The Alpha seems to show pressure earlier than the Hornady brass I initially used in my workups. I went to 44.0+gr of RL16 with the Hornady brass at velocities that were flirting with 3,000fps. At 41.9 I still get the occasional sticky-ish bolt. I might drop it down to 41.8gr. At 41.9gr I was getting right at 2850fps at 60* Fahrenheit. Keep in mind, this is a factory Tikka barrel which are known to be 100fps slow.
I have 2 loads for Lapua Scenars, with Vihtavuori powder.
123 Scenar and VV N150 38,6g.
This bullet is easy to load, 2mm off the lands and it work, do not go to the lands, because it will ruin the accuracy.
But then the 136gf Scenar L is 0,5mm off the lands, this bullet is like Berger and needs to be closer to the lands to make it work.
VV N555 and it works fine with 43gr and 44gr loads.
That 43gr would be even smaller than 44gr, but one flyer came, it was because hot weather and mirage from the ground was like grazy.
44gr was 0.2 MOA.
Krieger barrel 21".
Tikka T3X action.
KRG Whiskey chassis.
123 Scenar and VV N150 38,6g.
This bullet is easy to load, 2mm off the lands and it work, do not go to the lands, because it will ruin the accuracy.
But then the 136gf Scenar L is 0,5mm off the lands, this bullet is like Berger and needs to be closer to the lands to make it work.
VV N555 and it works fine with 43gr and 44gr loads.
That 43gr would be even smaller than 44gr, but one flyer came, it was because hot weather and mirage from the ground was like grazy.
44gr was 0.2 MOA.
Krieger barrel 21".
Tikka T3X action.
KRG Whiskey chassis.
MV is 2850 and SDs are single digits. Good enough for me.
Using Starline brass, CCI 450, RL16 and 140 BTHP, I found 2 very consistent loads: 40.7 at 2800 fps and 41.5 at 2850 fps with SD's below 5. I used the higher node in matches when I'm out of 147 eldms and has performed very well.
The 140 Hybrid is the most laid back and easy to tune bullet i think ive ever used.
I ran a 10 shot ladder just to find a flat spot in the velocity and a starting point and it shot more like a tuned final load.
The picture is the last five ranging from 41.3-42.1 of H4350 and very similar in accuracy to the first five other than my hamfisted first shot.
Barrel is a 1-7.5" Bartlien 5R M24 profile finished at 23" with SAAMI .199 FB.
I ran a 10 shot ladder just to find a flat spot in the velocity and a starting point and it shot more like a tuned final load.
The picture is the last five ranging from 41.3-42.1 of H4350 and very similar in accuracy to the first five other than my hamfisted first shot.
Barrel is a 1-7.5" Bartlien 5R M24 profile finished at 23" with SAAMI .199 FB.
Does anyone have a preference between 147gr ELDM vs 144gr LR Hybrid Targets? I have both... thinking about just running the 147s and selling off my LR Hybrids. Not shooting much these days...
Haven’t tried 144gr LR Hybrid Targets, but I did play with 147gr ELDMs when you could find them.
This pic was out of a stock Ruger Precision Rifle with multiple fired (Not annealed at that time) Hornady Brass. FL Resized 2 thou under fired Hornady Headspace Comparator reading, loaded essentially to mag length. Fed GM210M Primers. H4350 powder. Bipod on front, squeeze bag on rear.
Can’t remember exactly what my MV was on the 147s, but was loading just under Hornady’ published max. I researched the 147 ELDMs a good bit before I triem them, & I did see a bunch of complaints from folks saying the 147s were prone to bowing up, but I did not find that to be the case in my tests. I didn’t load over max, & since Hornady is usually conservative on their published max data, maybe I just got lucky?
I only ran a few hundred of them, but ran out, & couldn’t find anymore, so moved on to Bergers. Was amazed at how consistent the Berger’s shot on my load development across all charge weights. Groups were so consistent, it forced me to look for flat spots, & focus on SDs.
The Hornady 147 ELDMs have worked reliably in all 3 of my rifles, and i have not seen any disintegrate yet. Might have missed the odd blowup at distance, i guess you can never be sure. I don’t doubt that some folks are routinely seeing Hornady (and Berger) bullets disintegrate, and i wish the companies would do something about that. However, my research also indicates that some barrels with tall grooves are harder on the bullets, especially at 6.5 PRC speed, and they blow up more easily, due to excessive jacket deformation. So perhaps the barrel makers also have to make improvements... [Maybe polygon grooves are better in this regard, not really sure.]
The 147 ELDM is a very long bullet, and that can be good or bad. If your freebore is short and the the barrel is new, the 147s are not ideal as you lose too much case capacity and therefore speed. If the barrel is worn, it is a way to get some extra life out of an old barrel - if you are lucky and it still shoots well enough in its old age…
Have used 147s with good success out of a Savage 12 LRP, with 3,200 rounds down the pipe, and got some phenomenal groups at 600 at times when the wind died down. Cannot load 140s to a small jump anymore, but the long heavies still work, and with double base powders like RL-26 you can get good speed (2,800 fps or more).
The published BC is very good and based on drop data, appears to be correct. Wind drift benefits are helpful as long as you can maintain adequate speed.
In a new 6.5 CM, I start with lighter bullets (130s to 140s) that can be loaded to mag length without sitting too deep in the case, eating up powder volume. After 1,800 to 2,000 rounds, the lands have moved forward quite a lot (0.15” to 0.2” is typical), then i would switch to 147 or 156 gn projectiles, and get another 500-800 rounds out of the barrel before replacing it.
Btw: Old barrels can sometimes be given new life via an intensive 3 hour “deep clean” (involving a drill and a bronze brush plus a good carbon solvent) to get the baked-on carbon out of the chamber neck and the barrel. Something to be done with great care, as you can damage the barrel in the process, and not a procedure i would recommend for a healthy new barrel.
Good luck!
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“In a new 6.5 CM, I start with lighter bullets (130s to 140s) that can be loaded to mag length without sitting too deep in the case, eating up powder volume. After 1,800 to 2,000 rounds, the lands have moved forward quite a lot (0.15” to 0.2” is typical), then i would switch to 147 or 156 gn projectiles, and get another 500-800 rounds out of the barrel before replacing it.”
Very interesting! That makes perfect sense to me. I never even thought about that. Great idea
Based on what was said here and in the ELDM thread, I've decided to try 144gr LRHTs in my new Proof CF 6.5 CM barrel. Hopefully, they work out, if not I will have my 147gr ELDMs to fall back on. (the only ELDMs I have tried thus far are the 108gr in my old 6BR)
has anyone had any luck with seirra bthp 140 6.5 ball? i've done from .005 off the lands to .010 off the lands and have done ladder tests on both and cant find any flat nodes worth using. any advice would be great. using a rpr witha IBI barrel 1/8 twist at 26inch length
I probably go too far the other direction, but it's working for me. On new Proof pre-fit I just loaded inside mag length and put 200 down range to break it in and check pressure starting at 2g below max. Left it where last rifle was 43.8 StaBall and took some MV early on to have a baseline, but have not retested to figure out how much it sped up. Tight groups on paper with 140s then immediately swung out to 1k....money. That was over 500 rounds ago still ripping no idea on MV, ES, SD all I know is it's a shooting mofo out to 1200. I'm not averse to diving into the minutia if I have to, but I don't like reloading at all it's a time suck in a busy life. I like shooting steel a lot more so if it's easy button easy I try that first!
H4350 with a 130 gn Sierra TMK gave 2860 fps in two of my rifles, from a 26” barrel.
Some powders like Win760 can (allegedly) get speed up to the low 2,900’s, from a 24” barrel, but i have not tried it. See the 11’th edition of the Hornady load manual.
Btw, i did get 2900+ fps with 130’s from RL-17, from a 26”barrel, but this powder is not properly temperature stabilized, and barrel wear is noticeably higher than average. Teslong bore scope inspections made that very obvious. You need a winter and a summer load if you choose to use it. Not recommended, because you “fall out of the node” too easily, e.g. due to ambient temperature, a hot barrel or simply leaving your ammo in the sun for two hours. And it eats barrels.
RL-16 is a better choice than RL-17, and gave very small groups (below 0.2”) with 135 gn Atips. Speed was very good, found a node around 2850 fps. Could have gone higher - but no need.
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My method which has worked very well for several years is; place the rod guide in the barrel, use a squirt bottle and shot about 4-6 oz. of ice water down the barrel followed by three patches. The last one will be dry. Use a large patch to dry the chamber. The barrel cools evenly and the next shot will be in the group. Pouring water on the outside of the barrel cools it and is quicker but the next shot has always been way out of the group.
Did you run these with a lot of jump in your Proof? Closer to lands? In last 2 barrels just slapped in at mag length and they were amazing on paper and out to 1200 and even a fair amount of hits at 1 mile, but in new Proof 26" pre-fit they shoot like ass it's amazing 1.5-2" with both vertical and horizontal. SMK, Berger and Barnes all under .5" though. Put these pills off til last and figured I may have to go land chasing and powder charge tweaking to get these to group unfortunately. If pills were like the old days I'd not mess with them, but still not easy to source what you want in bulk so not going to bail on these just yet. Thanks
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Ok thanks. Dang I'm at ~ 30thou off right now.....just atrocious sure hope it improves next time out. Huge surprise for me as they were insane in my RPR and Bergara.
RBros 6.5 CM; 26” Broughton barrel, Defiance action, 130 VLD’s, Lapua brass, CCI 450 primers, just touching the lands and 43.8 grains of RL16 right at 3,009 fps. Also use 43.8 grains of H4350 and velocity at 2,930 to 2,950 fps. Both shoot lights out.
Not out of an AR but a 24" Schnieder 1-8 P5 and not hot rodding it in 6.5x47L with 37gr of Varget and 130 AR hybrid runs a consistent 2880fps at 4600 ft ASL.
Very consistent load and relativly mild in my rifle.
Running through the last of my Berger 144s that i started to develop a load for and decided to just go run the lot and have some fun ringing some steel.
Tikka Tac A1 (1800 rounds through the barrel)
CCI BR2
Lapua once fired brass
43.0 H4350
This was my final five shot group at 1000 yards. Might need to stick with this load if I can ever find some more 144s.
Tikka Tac A1 (1800 rounds through the barrel)
CCI BR2
Lapua once fired brass
43.0 H4350
This was my final five shot group at 1000 yards. Might need to stick with this load if I can ever find some more 144s.
Thanks! Running the factory 24 inch barrel. Velocity is about 2745 single digit SD and ES but I only ran 10 shot groups because of lack of bullets. Had to load them stupid long. CBTO was 2.336. Single load only.
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i've tried the berger 144 could seem to make them work, talked to berger they said to load to 2.80coal. did that and what they said said for load of h4350 no accuracy and low speeds. on a ibi 26inch barrel, rpr
Berger's recipe didn't work for you? May I ask what was the recipe they recommended to you?
Thanks!
I did a ladder test last week with the Berger 144 and H4350 through my 24" Tikka T3X. Started at 40.6 and worked up to 42.4 in .2 gr increments. Every group shot under 1 moa, the best groups under .5 moa. All SD's were under 10.
I loaded to max mag length for my CTR of 2.923". This was with new Lapua brass and CCI 450 primers. Best group was 42.4 at 2705 fps and .338 moa.
Think I will back off to 41.8gr and start adjusting seating depth. From what I have read these bullets like to jump.
I loaded to max mag length for my CTR of 2.923". This was with new Lapua brass and CCI 450 primers. Best group was 42.4 at 2705 fps and .338 moa.
Think I will back off to 41.8gr and start adjusting seating depth. From what I have read these bullets like to jump.
Most folks i know get very good results with the Berger 144 out of a 6.5 CM. Good consistency and high BC.
Some barrels are noticeably slower than average, like almost all Tikkas, but don’t let that put you off. That last 100 fps means very little in terms of wind drift. Yes you will have to dial a little more on the turret, but that is no big deal if you know the distance.
Most folks/most rifles tend to find their sweet spot between 40.5 and 42.5 of H4350, depending on chamber and freebore dimensions. Speed from a 26” barrel in the 2700 to 2750 fps range is typical for a 144/145 projectiles, but if you are above 2650, that is ok too.
What group size are you getting? What type of scale are you using? Perhaps try a different primer.
I know this is obvious, but double check everything once again: Action screw torque, scope screw torque, and barrel cleanliness, preferably with a good borescope, then re-foul it with 20-25 rounds. Check the crown. Listen for a consistent firing pin fall. Is the brake attached properly. Check if there is a carbon ring inside the brake.
It might be useful to buy Berger and Hornady match ammo, and see how they do. I realize this ammo can be hard to find right now. If the commercial ammo shows pressure signs, or if you are 150 fps or more slower than the box says, then speak to the barrel maker.
Also see what groups you get with the brake (or can) removed. Have before seen a buddy’s rifle shoot 2” groups at 50, using a brand new can. One bullet keyholed sideways through the target. We were getting baffle strikes. Took the can off and it shot great!
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i'am using a IBI 26 inch barrel havent had any problem with the barrel using hornady140 bthp, did 8 out of 10 bulleyes at 500m on a match last week
