6.5 Creedmoor

[Bolt Thrower]

Couldn't find any more 140 gr ELD-M bullets, so loaded up some 143 gr ELD-X bullets for a match. They seemed to perform comparably to the 140gr ELD-Ms at distance (average target +/-400 yards, longest 890 yards). It is a slightly lower BC bullet (0.315 vs 0.326 per Hornady) but I couldn't really tell the difference at the distances we were shooting. Here is the load I settled on and ran:

Hornady 143 gr ELD-X
41.6 gr H4350
Lapua LRP Case (1x fired)
CCI 200
CBTO: 2.1840" (+/- 0.060" jump)
Proof 26" SS Impact Prefit, 1:8" twist, 700 rounds on it
Average MV: 2,771 FPS
ES: 15
SD: 4.7

I did an abridged 12 round OCW-type test to decide on 41.6 gr. Here is the MV at the other charges I tried:
41.0 gr - 2,743 FPS
41.2 gr - 2,757 FPS
41.4 gr - 2,767 FPS

 

[Amazingrandy1]

Hey Everyone,

I am starting to work up new loads for my 6.5 Creedmoor in my Tikka Tac A1. I am using Norma 130gr Golden Target heads and IMR 4451 powder to start. I have a question with regards to the IMR 4451 load data. I have load data from Sierra for 130gr HPBT which states that the max charge of 4451 should be 43.7gr, and Hodgdon data is telling a max of 4451 is 41.7C. Thats a pretty good difference between the two, and was wondering if anyone is loading at those weights and if they are having any issues? Thanks!

 

[sjmpcc022]

Hey Everyone,

I am starting to work up new loads for my 6.5 Creedmoor in my Tikka Tac A1. I am using Norma 130gr Golden Target heads and IMR 4451 powder to start. I have a question with regards to the IMR 4451 load data. I have load data from Sierra for 130gr HPBT which states that the max charge of 4451 should be 43.7gr, and Hodgdon data is telling a max of 4451 is 41.7C. Thats a pretty good difference between the two, and was wondering if anyone is loading at those weights and if they are having any issues? Thanks!

If you read through this thread or many others here you will see the law of the land for a 140gr ELD bullet is 41.5gr of H4350. Maybe not the law of the land but a VERY popular loading. I do think some fella named Moses may have mentioned it a time or two though.

Looking at the Hogdgon reloading website, they list max for a 140gr Hornaday A Max at 40.0C, delivering 2660fps.

Go with the Hide!

 

[NamibHunter]

If you read through this thread or many others here you will see the law of the land for a 140gr ELD bullet is 41.5gr of H4350. Maybe not the law of the land but a VERY popular loading. I do think some fella named Moses may have mentioned it a time or two though.

Looking at the Hogdgon reloading website, they list max for a 140gr Hornaday A Max at 40.0C, delivering 2660fps.

Go with the Hide!

Not a powder i have tried.

If that is the only powder you have, and you can’t find H4350, well then i guess that is what you will have to use for now.

Loading a 130 gn projectile instead of a 140 should give you perhaps an extra 100 fps.

Start low and work your way up - while looking for pressure signs. If you hit pressure, then back off at least 0.5 gn. This tutorial might be helpful:

 

[Shoots 700's]

I have used 4451 in 6.5 creed ,130 OTM in a gas gun. Load was 43.5 with no issues.

YMMV

 

[Amazingrandy1]

I have used 4451 in 6.5 creed ,130 OTM in a gas gun. Load was 43.5 with no issues.

YMMV

Thank you. I know our two rifles are different, but how was your accuracy and velocity?

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Hey Everyone,

I am starting to work up new loads for my 6.5 Creedmoor in my Tikka Tac A1. I am using Norma 130gr Golden Target heads and IMR 4451 powder to start. I have a question with regards to the IMR 4451 load data. I have load data from Sierra for 130gr HPBT which states that the max charge of 4451 should be 43.7gr, and Hodgdon data is telling a max of 4451 is 41.7C. Thats a pretty good difference between the two, and was wondering if anyone is loading at those weights and if they are having any issues? Thanks!

The difference between Sierra and Hodgdon data could be attributable to different assumptions for brass, seating depth and the fact both are providing data for different bullets. Brass is going to make a big difference in pressure and velocity. For example - Lapua brass has a less case volume than Hornady brass, so will generate more pressure with less powder. I agree with NamibHunter's advice. Start low and work your way up looking for pressure signs. Also, the "C" in Hodgdon's 41.7C means compressed. If you hear a crunch when you seat the bullet then your load is likely compressed and you probably will want to stop at that charge.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Thank you. I know our two rifles are different, but how was your accuracy and velocity?

Out of a 22" gas gun about 2775fps

 

[NamibHunter]

Not a bullet i have used, but noticed that the 140 gn Barnes Matchburner is available on Midway.com.

Have used the 145 gn with good success, but sold out everywhere i looked.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Not a bullet i have used, but noticed that the 140 gn Barnes Matchburner is available on Midway.com.

Have used the 145 gn with good success, but sold out everywhere i looked.

I've used the Barnes 140 gr Match Burners. In my experience they are decent bullets and a really good value at the "normal" $0.25-$0.30 price. They group well at 100, but lower BC and a little less consistent at distance than the 140 gr ELD-Ms. I'd compare them to the Hornady 140 gr Match BTHPs if you've used those before. Midway has really jacked up the price though on Match Burners. Last time I checked they were selling them for around $0.40 which is quite a premium. Unless you really need them, I'd wait until they come in stock at another retailer with more reasonable pricing.

@NamibHunter What was your experience with the 145 gr Match Burners? They were quoting a very high BC (.350 if I remember correctly). Have they been pretty consistent at distance? Does that that BC seem accurate?

 

[NamibHunter]

I've used the Barnes 140 gr Match Burners. In my experience they are decent bullets and a really good value at the "normal" $0.25-$0.30 price. They group well at 100, but lower BC and a little less consistent at distance than the 140 gr ELD-Ms. I'd compare them to the Hornady 140 gr Match BTHPs if you've used those before. Midway has really jacked up the price though on Match Burners. Last time I checked they were selling them for around $0.40 which is quite a premium. Unless you really need them, I'd wait until they come in stock at another retailer with more reasonable pricing.

@NamibHunter What was your experience with the 145 gr Match Burners? They were quoting a very high BC (.350 if I remember correctly). Have they been pretty consistent at distance? Does that that BC seem accurate?

Disclaimer: I only have access to 600 yards where i live, so not really enough distance to be sure about the exact drop. Vertical at 600 is not great for this load (4”), likely it needs more tuning.

The bullet has a very pointy shape and it is quite long. Shape is more secant than tangent, at least to my old eyes! Visually it looks to be a scaled down 150 gn Sierra SMK, but slightly shortened to get the max twist rate down from 7.5 to 8.0. [But to be clear, this is just my speculation, and i might well be wrong here. Heard internet rumors that Sierra is making this bullet on contract, but no idea if that is true or not.]

i calculated a trued G7 BC closer to 0.315, but i have to admit that is +- two scope clicks, which implies a number anywhere between 0.3 and 0.35. I currently use 0.32 in Strelok Pro.

Somebody needs to go shoot this bullet at 1000 yards and report back…

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Disclaimer: I only have access to 600 yards where i live, so not really enough distance to be sure about the exact drop. Vertical at 600 is not great for this load (4”), likely it needs more tuning.

The bullet has a very pointy shape and it is quite long. Shape is more secant than tangent, at least to my old eyes! Visually it looks to be a scaled down 150 gn Sierra SMK, but slightly shortened to get the max twist rate down from 7.5 to 8.0. [But to be clear, this is just my speculation, and i might well be wrong here. Heard internet rumors that Sierra is making this bullet on contract, but no idea if that is true or not.]

i calculated a trued G7 BC closer to 0.315, but i have to admit that is +- two scope clicks, which implies a number anywhere between 0.3 and 0.35. I currently use 0.32 in Strelok Pro.

Somebody needs to go shoot this bullet at 1000 yards and report back…

Thank you @NamibHunter. I understand that Sierra owns Barnes (acquired from Remington bankruptcy), so the similarity may not be coincidence. That BC sounds more real to me.

For the 140 gr Match Burners, Barnes customer service told me "0.288 or 0.289 is good to use for G7. You may need to tweak a little depending on your velocity." I have been using 0.288 with MV @ 2771 FPS and it seems to work fine. I wasn't able to measure vertical at distance, but I did compare the 140 gr Match Burners against 140 gr ELDMs and for me they were a bit less consistent. Test was far from scientific, used similar loads that shot well at 100 and shot smallish steel at various distances from 200 to 850 with both bullets. We had 6 targets out and I shot them at the same time in same conditions. The purpose was to see if I could replace ELDMs with Match Burners, because ELDMs are hard to find.

 

[NamibHunter]

Thank you @NamibHunter. I understand that Sierra owns Barnes (acquired from Remington bankruptcy), so the similarity may not be coincidence. That BC sounds more real to me.

For the 140 gr Match Burners, Barnes customer service told me "0.288 or 0.289 is good to use for G7. You may need to tweak a little depending on your velocity." I have been using 0.288 with MV @ 2771 FPS and it seems to work fine. I wasn't able to measure vertical at distance, but I did compare the 140 gr Match Burners against 140 gr ELDMs and for me they were a bit less consistent. Test was far from scientific, used similar loads that shot well at 100 and shot smallish steel at various distances from 200 to 850 with both bullets. We had 6 targets out and I shot them at the same time in same conditions. The purpose was to see if I could replace ELDMs with Match Burners, because ELDMs are hard to find.

BTW: If i use the latest Litz custom drag model (CDM) in the AB ballistic calculator, it shows a drop of 23.75 MOA at 1000 yards (29.85 inHg, 91% humidity, 72 deg F) at 2910 fps.

That yields a G7 BC of 0.357 in Strelok Pro. Probably because of the good speed i am getting with RL-17 and HBN coating. [So maybe i am short changing this projectile. Note that you will not achieve 2900 fps with a 145 gn bullet, without a bullet coating, which allows for more powder. Also, not really recommending HBN for a target rifle. Too many disadvantages, and rather limited benefit in terms of drop and wind drift. It is a viable idea for a hunting rig.]

Of course, not all rifles will achieve the same BC, even if you test perfectly identical bullets, at exactly the same speed. This can happen especially if a brake or suppressor is a little off center and the bullet comes out wobbling for the first 200 yards (but not striking baffles, so merely different ‘clearance’ on say the left and right side between baffle and projectile). I might need to try a different brake! So please take my lower than claimed BC number with a pinch of salt.

Interested to hear what others got when they did the BC truing.

 

[Klay23]

Anyone have a place to start for an MPA BA with 24” barrel from them with h4350 and Berger 140 vld target and Berger 130 hybrid otm tactical projectiles? Books telling me a max of something like 40grains and 39.2 gr of h4350. Everything I see here is well
Over. I know I need to check pressure etc . My old go to load for Nosler 130 rdf’s was 38.5 grains and was decent, but FPS was in the 2550 range. Would like to have a nice grouping load but hate starting from scratch, again, lol

 

[NamibHunter]

Try to replicate the Hornady 140 gn ELD-M Match factory ammo (speed and seating depth). [Note Hornady is not using H4350 anymore, so no point in pulling the bullet and weighing the charge. It is likely some proprietary powder blend.] The MPA 6.5 CM match chamber is cut for this particular 140 factory round. Your freebore will likely be too short for the 147. You should see 2720 fps or somewhere close to that in a 24” barrel. If you can even get hold of Hornady factory ammo!

For the 140 gn, I would start at 39.0 and work up in 0.5 gn increments, and carefully look for max pressure. On my brand new MPA 2 years ago, i found a node at 40.0 and a max of 40.5 gn, surprisingly low - the tight chamber and short freebore is the explanation. The rifle now has 1,800 plus rounds on the barrel, and the lands have moved forward quite a bit. It is now running 41.5 gn with the 140s. This is also where most 6.5 CM rifles with a standard SAAMI chamber are happy. A sloppy chamber or very long freebore setup may need a bit more. [Once the lands move forward, switch from 140 to 147 gn projectiles (of course, redo the load workup).] For some strange reason, the two MPA rifles i have some experience with both did NOT like jammed bullets. I got good results with a 15 thou jump. YMMV.

Powder charge for the 130s should end up 1.3 to 1.4 gn higher, compared to the 140s. Start at 40 or so and work up.

As always, start low and work up. Once you know your max, look for a nice wide flatspot in the speed graph (try to do three shot groups in 0.2 gn or 0.3 gn increments). [BTW: A flat spot (“node”) only counts if it is at least 0.5 gn wide, and if it repeats twice in succession, to rule out the “luck factor”.]. Then optimize seating depth to pull in the groups.

Best of luck and be safe!

 

[John Glidewell]

The recommended reload from Hornady (use to be printed on side of box) is 41.5 of H4350 and a Federal 210m primer.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Anyone have a place to start for an MPA BA with 24” barrel from them with h4350 and Berger 140 vld target and Berger 130 hybrid otm tactical projectiles? Books telling me a max of something like 40grains and 39.2 gr of h4350. Everything I see here is well
Over. I know I need to check pressure etc . My old go to load for Nosler 130 rdf’s was 38.5 grains and was decent, but FPS was in the 2550 range. Would like to have a nice grouping load but hate starting from scratch, again, lol

What brass are you using? In my experience, case volume makes a significant difference in pressure and velocity. For a 140 gr match bullet, 42.0 gr of H4350 in Hornady case gets me to around the same velocity as 41.6 gr in a Lapua case.

 

[Klay23]

Try to replicate the Hornady 140 gn ELD-M Match factory ammo (speed and seating depth). [Note Hornady is not using H4350 anymore, so no point in pulling the bullet and weighing the charge. It is likely some proprietary powder blend.] The MPA 6.5 CM match chamber is cut for this particular 140 factory round. Your freebore will likely be too short for the 147. You should see 2720 fps or somewhere close to that in a 24” barrel. If you can even get hold of Hornady factory ammo!

For the 140 gn, I would start at 39.0 and work up in 0.5 gn increments, and carefully look for max pressure. On my brand new MPA 2 years ago, i found a node at 40.0 and a max of 40.5 gn, surprisingly low - the tight chamber and short freebore is the explanation. The rifle now has 1,800 plus rounds on the barrel, and the lands have moved forward quite a bit. It is now running 41.5 gn with the 140s. This is also where most 6.5 CM rifles with a standard SAAMI chamber are happy. A sloppy chamber or very long freebore setup may need a bit more. [Once the lands move forward, switch from 140 to 147 gn projectiles (of course, redo the load workup).] For some strange reason, the two MPA rifles i have some experience with both did NOT like jammed bullets. I got good results with a 15 thou jump. YMMV.

Powder charge for the 130s should end up 1.3 to 1.4 gn higher, compared to the 140s. Start at 40 or so and work up.

As always, start low and work up. Once you know your max, look for a nice wide flatspot in the speed graph (try to do three shot groups in 0.2 gn or 0.3 gn increments). [BTW: A flat spot (“node”) only counts if it is at least 0.5 gn wide, and if it repeats twice in succession, to rule out the “luck factor”.]. Then optimize seating depth to pull in the groups.

Best of luck and be safe!

I’ve struggled a little to recognize too much pressure. I’ve gone up to 41.5gr(testing my memory) and had some pretty flattened primers. I don’t get to shoot super far but usually max around 600yds. Any easy or clear way to make sure I’m not at too much pressure. I’m ok with going a little slower if I can still shoot precisely consistently. And I’m guessing it will help my barrel last longer?

 

[Klay23]

What brass are you using? In my experience, case volume makes a significant difference in pressure and velocity. For a 140 gr match bullet, 42.0 gr of H4350 in Hornady case gets me to around the same velocity as 41.6 gr in a Lapua case.

I have multiple options
Lapua lrp
Nosler
Hornady
Star line

 

[sjmpcc022]

What brass are you using? In my experience, case volume makes a significant difference in pressure and velocity. For a 140 gr match bullet, 42.0 gr of H4350 in Hornady case gets me to around the same velocity as 41.6 gr in a Lapua case.

I've just started load developement with H4350 and a 140gr bullet. My old super accurate but slow load was with IMR 4064 at 2625fps. Prints great, but you can tell at 700yds plus if it's windy.

With an ELD bullet and also a Nosler Custom Competition, 41.5, got me 2770ish, very consistent . I'm hoping to run it again and also try .2 less, to see if that yields 2750fps. Also absolutley NO pressure signs whatsoever. I will be able to shoot groups in a week or so. If it's good, I'm standing pat. I also have some 6.5 Sta Ball that should be able to mirror the velocity I decide on.

For reference the one box of Hornaday ELD Match I have says 2710 on the box.

 

[RldrNewby]

This was a load development test I just did at 100yds using a Ruger Precision Rifle with the following components. I didn’t run into any significant pressure, but ymmv. The groups were impressive for my rig, and I seem to have found a good node between 41.6 & 41.8gr. Velocities aren’t screaming, but I usually try for the lower nodes to keep from beating my brass to pieces.

Brass: First time fired Nosler Brass (Annealed, Redding Type-S FL Bushing Sized to 1.537-1.5375 using my comprator, Trim lengths between 1.908 & 1.913 from factory).

Primers: Federal GM210M

Powder: H4350

Bullets: Berger 135gr Classic Hunters

 

[NamibHunter]

This was a load development test I just did at 100yds using a Ruger Precision Rifle with the following components. I didn’t run into any significant pressure, but ymmv. The groups were impressive for my rig, and I seem to have found a good node between 41.6 & 41.8gr. Velocities aren’t screaming, but I usually try for the lower nodes to keep from beating my brass to pieces.

Brass: First time fired Nosler Brass (Annealed, Redding Type-S FL Bushing Sized to 1.537-1.5375 using my comprator, Trim lengths between 1.908 & 1.913 from factory).

Primers: Federal GM210M

Powder: H4350

Bullets: Berger 135gr Classic Hunters

View attachment 7639954
View attachment 7639955

That is an impressive result!

Have used Nosler LRP brass for a number of years with good results. Got between 8 and 12 reloads before the primer pockets opened up. The few cases discarded after 8 were those used to find max pressure, so 12 reloads is a realistic goal.

Lapua SRP brass give me about 25 to 30 reloads, so lower cost per shot. Of course, some rifles have bolts and primer pins geometry that may not be compatible with small rifle primers - and primer piercing may occur. And you will need to change out your decapping pin if you switch, or grind it down to the correct diameter. As always, there are pros and cons. Lapua and Alpha brass are also thicker with lower internal volume, so powder charge is 0.5 to 1.0 gn lower for the same speed. Concentricity is sometimes slightly better, but that is a very minor benefit.

Enjoy your rifle, you found a great load!

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

That is an impressive result!

Have used Nosler LRP brass for a number of years with good results. Got between 8 and 12 reloads before the primer pockets opened up. The few cases discarded after 8 were those used to find max pressure, so 12 reloads is a realistic goal.

Lapua SRP brass give me about 25 to 30 reloads, so lower cost per shot. Of course, some rifles have bolts and primer pins geometry that may not be compatible with small rifle primers - and primer piercing may occur. And you will need to change out your decapping pin if you switch, or grind it down to the correct diameter. As always, there are pros and cons. Lapua and Alpha brass are also thicker with lower internal volume, so powder charge is 0.5 to 1.0 gn lower for the same speed. Concentricity is sometimes slightly better, but that is a very minor benefit.

Enjoy your rifle, you found a great load!

I was worried about that and found it was a non issue for me. I use a Lee universal decapping die and it was small enough for the Lapua SR brass.

I just picked up a Might Armoury decapping die for my 6BR adventure and it looks slick.

 

[RldrNewby]

That is an impressive result!

Have used Nosler LRP brass for a number of years with good results. Got between 8 and 12 reloads before the primer pockets opened up. The few cases discarded after 8 were those used to find max pressure, so 12 reloads is a realistic goal.

Lapua SRP brass give me about 25 to 30 reloads, so lower cost per shot. Of course, some rifles have bolts and primer pins geometry that may not be compatible with small rifle primers - and primer piercing may occur. And you will need to change out your decapping pin if you switch, or grind it down to the correct diameter. As always, there are pros and cons. Lapua and Alpha brass are also thicker with lower internal volume, so powder charge is 0.5 to 1.0 gn lower for the same speed. Concentricity is sometimes slightly better, but that is a very minor benefit.

Enjoy your rifle, you found a great load!

Thanks. I will say I worked those bullets up previously using multiple fired & fully worked up Hornady Brass, but found my rifle preferred 42.4gr with a MV that was slightly higher than the results I got with the Nosler brass. All that said, these were only 3 shot tests, so duplicating those groups & SDs in bulk won’t look quite as good I’m sure, lol. Great starting points tho. Can tell immediately if the load is terrible with 3 shots, but 5 to 10 shots are ideal once I narrow in. This was the original workup with the Hornady Brass.

 

[kjmdrumz3]

I'm gonna go ahead and call this good. Pretty happy with this out of a factory rifle. 41.9gr RL 16, CCI 200, 2.240" CBTO. Thanks for all of tips and helping me through my frustrations. Hasn't been the easiest load development but I learned TONS!

 

[sjmpcc022]

This was a load development test I just did at 100yds using a Ruger Precision Rifle with the following components. I didn’t run into any significant pressure, but ymmv. The groups were impressive for my rig, and I seem to have found a good node between 41.6 & 41.8gr. Velocities aren’t screaming, but I usually try for the lower nodes to keep from beating my brass to pieces.

Brass: First time fired Nosler Brass (Annealed, Redding Type-S FL Bushing Sized to 1.537-1.5375 using my comprator, Trim lengths between 1.908 & 1.913 from factory).

Primers: Federal GM210M

Powder: H4350

Bullets: Berger 135gr Classic Hunters

View attachment 7639954
View attachment 7639955

That's outstanding! It's a touch slower than my findings but very close. I'm on my way downstairs right now to load up 4 with 41.3gr of H4350 and see if I can find 2750. I think that should be a good compromise between cutting wind at distance and saving the brass and barrel. We shall see?

I read on here once somewhere that with a 140gr bullet, every .1 of powder should be around 8-10fps. Every barrel and case is different, but it's good reference point.

 

[S3th]

Ordered 100x 109gr AB Hammers. Hoping to run these at 3,350+ from my 22".

 

[RldrNewby]

That's outstanding! It's a touch slower than my findings but very close. I'm on my way downstairs right now to load up 4 with 41.3gr of H4350 and see if I can find 2750. I think that should be a good compromise between cutting wind at distance and saving the brass and barrel. We shall see?

I read on here once somewhere that with a 140gr bullet, every .1 of powder should be around 8-10fps. Every barrel and case is different, but it's good reference point.

Thanks. I may’ve overlooked it, but what type Brass are you using? The first load I ever worked up in my RPR was using 140g ELDMs with multiple fired Hornady Brass, FedGM210M Primers, & H4350. I was not annealing then, & wasn’t running a FL Type-S Bushing Die targeting .002 neck tension & shoulder bump, didn’t have a super reliable scale like I have now in an FX-120i, & all I had at the time was a Caldwell optical chrono. Nothing wrong with the Caldwell, but I found it finicky to setup correctly to capture all my shots. Eventually, I got a Magnetospeed v3, & have been really happy with it. Anyhow, I guess where I’m trying to go with this is when I first got into reloading, my equipment & processes were no where near what they are now, but I got really good groups out of 41.2g H4350, Hornady Brass, & 140gELDMs. Shot great at 100 & 1000yds. MV was only around 2710-2730 depending on lot of Powder, Primer, & my powder throw before the FX-120i scale. Think a lot of variation in ppl’s results obviously are from different length barrels, twist, then lot to lot variation in powder, primers, & bullet weights. My conclusion from reading a lot of more knowledge ppl’s posts on here than mine is that Brass types have a MAJOR influence on MV due to varying thickness, which directly correlates to case volume, & pressure. Thinkin it’s all about what your doing in finding what velocity ranges your rig likes with certain weight class projectiles using the components & techniques you have on hand, while staying as far below pressure as you can.

 

[RldrNewby]

I'm gonna go ahead and call this good. Pretty happy with this out of a factory rifle. 41.9gr RL 16, CCI 200, 2.240" CBTO. Thanks for all of tips and helping me through my frustrations. Hasn't been the easiest load development but I learned TONS!


View attachment 7640623

Very nice! Haven’t tried that powder yet, but definitely might at some point. How are the MVs and SDs looking?

 

[sjmpcc022]

Thanks. I may’ve overlooked it, but what type Brass are you using? The first load I ever worked up in my RPR was using 140g ELDMs with multiple fired Hornady Brass, FedGM210M Primers, & H4350. I was not annealing then, & wasn’t running a FL Type-S Bushing Die targeting .002 neck tension & shoulder bump, didn’t have a super reliable scale like I have now in an FX-120i, & all I had at the time was a Caldwell optical chrono. Nothing wrong with the Caldwell, but I found it finicky to setup correctly to capture all my shots. Eventually, I got a Magnetospeed v3, & have been really happy with it. Anyhow, I guess where I’m trying to go with this is when I first got into reloading, my equipment & processes were no where near what they are now, but I got really good groups out of 41.2g H4350, Hornady Brass, & 140gELDMs. Shot great at 100 & 1000yds. MV was only around 2710-2730 depending on lot of Powder, Primer, & my powder throw before the FX-120i scale. Think a lot of variation in ppl’s results obviously are from different length barrels, twist, then lot to lot variation in powder, primers, & bullet weights. My conclusion from reading a lot of more knowledge ppl’s posts on here than mine is that Brass types have a MAJOR influence on MV due to varying thickness, which directly correlates to case volume, & pressure. Thinkin it’s all about what your doing in finding what velocity ranges your rig likes with certain weight class projectiles using the components & techniques you have on hand, while staying as far below pressure as you can.

Hornaday. After I started this adventure, I had some Federal mixed in and couldn't figure out why the velocity was all over the place. It was the Federal brass. My 4064 load of 2625fps was a bit over 2700 in Federal cases. Now I have it separated out and will work on that when I get the current load figured out with the Hornaday brass. I also have some few times fired Remington, a few Winchester and 500 new Starline. Like I said, one at a time!

 

[NamibHunter]

Hornaday. After I started this adventure, I had some Federal mixed in and couldn't figure out why the velocity was all over the place. It was the Federal brass. My 4064 load of 2625fps was a bit over 2700 in Federal cases. Now I have it separated out and will work on that when I get the current load figured out with the Hornaday brass. I also have some few times fired Remington, a few Winchester and 500 new Starline. Like I said, one at a time!

Yep, different brands of brass can move your speed very much, enough to cause a significant pressure spike. In my case, Federal brass was the heaviest brass, at 170 gn, and a good 15% heavier than Hornady (the lightest brass i could find, at 145 gn). I found about a 70 fps difference in speed between these two brands of brass, for the same load.

BTW: Have run the experiment using different brands of 6.5 CM brass to see what is the effect of brass thickness / brass weight / available case volume on bullet speed:

“This experiment gave the best fit (96%). Slope of the best fit straight line is 2.2 indicating that each additional grain of case weight adds 2.2 fps in muzzle velocity.”

You can use this approximate formula to correct your load recipe when moving from one brand of brass to another, but always be conservative and subtract 1.5 grains, and work up the last grain or two in 0.5 increments, looking for any pressure signs. Link:

Effect of case volume on 6.5 Creedmoor velocity - some experimental data

OK, have been wanting to run this experiment for a while, and finally found the time 2 weeks ago. Have been collecting range brass over the past 4 years and just kept it in a plastic bucket, never shot it since it is unsorted, different manufacturer, different batch and different weight. Would...

www.snipershide.com

 

[RldrNewby]

Hornaday. After I started this adventure, I had some Federal mixed in and couldn't figure out why the velocity was all over the place. It was the Federal brass. My 4064 load of 2625fps was a bit over 2700 in Federal cases. Now I have it separated out and will work on that when I get the current load figured out with the Hornaday brass. I also have some few times fired Remington, a few Winchester and 500 new Starline. Like I said, one at a time!

Absolutely! I’m still learning something new about reloading every day. First bit of advice I ever got when I got into this stuff was once you get a load where you want it, if ANYTHING changes as far as components or brass prep process goes, do a quick re-check the load for groups, mv, sd, & pressure stating lower than your established load, & working back up to it. Different brass types in the mix dealt me pure misery when I first started loading for AR15. Groups were fine, but MV & SDs were all over the place, & I couldn’t figure out why, lol.

I have a question about something, & think I already know the answer, but figure I would ask anyway. Before I began annealing, I was getting over 8 reloads on my Hornady Brass before seeing stress signs in the necks & a very rare split neck. These cases were extremely work hardened, & I was measuring upwards of 1.540” to the datum line of the fired case with the Hornady Headspace Comparator I was using. Those same pieces of Brass with only had a couple firings on them measured 1.538-1.539”. As they work hardened the more I shot them, I was having great difficulty sizing them back to 1.537, which is where I decided to try to bump mine, without fiddling with my die. Annealing every time has fixed that problem for me, but I was wondering if a few thou difference in headspace between cases could cause any significantly detectable variances in pressure/mv/Sd?

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Absolutely! I’m still learning something new about reloading every day. First bit of advice I ever got when I got into this stuff was once you get a load where you want it, if ANYTHING changes as far as components or brass prep process goes, do a quick re-check the load for groups, mv, sd, & pressure stating lower than your established load, & working back up to it. Different brass types in the mix dealt me pure misery when I first started loading for AR15. Groups were fine, but MV & SDs were all over the place, & I couldn’t figure out why, lol.

I have a question about something, & think I already know the answer, but figure I would ask anyway. Before I began annealing, I was getting over 8 reloads on my Hornady Brass before seeing stress signs in the necks & a very rare split neck. These cases were extremely work hardened, & I was measuring upwards of 1.540” to the datum line of the fired case with the Hornady Headspace Comparator I was using. Those same pieces of Brass with only had a couple firings on them measured 1.538-1.539”. As they work hardened the more I shot them, I was having great difficulty sizing them back to 1.537, which is where I decided to try to bump mine, without fiddling with my die. Annealing every time has fixed that problem for me, but I was wondering if a few thou difference in headspace between cases could cause any significantly detectable variances in pressure/mv/Sd?

I'm very new to reloading but I've found that if I don't resize and bump the shoulder .001 - .002 after fireforming the brass, MV would be higher (i.e. the cartridges where the bolt closure was snug, yielded higher MV).

Here's my first reload for a Proof carbon fiber barrel in 6.5 CM using the Saterlee v2.0 method:
*** Disclaimer: your rifle may shoot significantly differently and the listed charges/components could cause harm and/or death. Always stick to published data on max charges and work up slowly. No guarantee to safety or precision stated or implied. ***
1. Hornady 1x fired brass from 140 ELD-M
2. Remington large rifle primer
3. Hodgdon H4350, 41.8 gr
4. Berger 130 VLD hunter bullets

CBTO = 2.152" Jump = 0.080"

 

[RldrNewby]

Yep, different brands of brass can move your speed very much, enough to cause a significant pressure spike. In my case, Federal brass was the heaviest brass, at 170 gn, and a good 15% heavier than Hornady (the lightest brass i could find, at 145 gn). I found about a 70 fps difference in speed between these two brands of brass, for the same load.

BTW: Have run the experiment using different brands of 6.5 CM brass to see what is the effect of brass thickness / brass weight / available case volume on bullet speed:

“This experiment gave the best fit (96%). Slope of the best fit straight line is 2.2 indicating that each additional grain of case weight adds 2.2 fps in muzzle velocity.”

You can use this approximate formula to correct your load recipe when moving from one brand of brass to another, but always be conservative and subtract 1.5 grains, and work up the last grain or two in 0.5 increments, looking for any pressure signs. Link:

Effect of case volume on 6.5 Creedmoor velocity - some experimental data

OK, have been wanting to run this experiment for a while, and finally found the time 2 weeks ago. Have been collecting range brass over the past 4 years and just kept it in a plastic bucket, never shot it since it is unsorted, different manufacturer, different batch and different weight. Would...

www.snipershide.com

Just read the attached test you did. That is amazing work. Well done! I’m sure it took a lot of time & patience to do it, but it answered a lot of questions I’m sure many of us enthusiasts have pondered. That’s the allure of reloading to me. Taking the results you have at the range, & then trying to improve upon them by learn as much of the physics as possible behind what happens to a round when it is fired, & trying to understand every aspect of the variables that are involved that can cause variance in your range results repeatability, & then trying to minimize each of those effects to the best of your ability in your reloading process. Thanks for the data.

 

[RldrNewby]

I'm very new to reloading but I've found that if I don't resize and bump the shoulder .001 - .002 after fireforming the brass, MV would be higher (i.e. the cartridges where the bolt closure was snug, yielded higher MV).

Here's my first reload for a Proof carbon fiber barrel in 6.5 CM using the Saterlee v2.0 method:
1. Hornady 1x fired brass from 140 ELD-M
2. Remington large rifle primer
3. Hodgdon H4350, 41.8 gr
4. Berger 130 VLD hunter bullets

CBTO = 2.152" Jump = 0.080"
View attachment 7640986

Nice! Aside from the cold bore impact on the first group (41.4gr ?) being off just a little, it absolutely stacked! I like the 41.8gr too. Very similar poi’s. Who knows why the SDs were great on the last charge weight, yet it opened up? I still have a ton to learn, and there’s lots I can’t make sense of or explain. So many ideas floatin around my head, but I’m no one that should be giving advice to any reloader, so take what I’m about to propose with a grain of salt.

My initial thought was, although things looked great at 41.4 & 41.8gr, can you push a little higher on the mv to see if the groups & SDs can both come together on the same plane, where pressure & barrel harmonics meet together in magical nirvana? The mythical unicorn we all search for? I’ve never been one to chase high muzzle velocities, but I do recognize that sometimes another node can be obtained that’s a little faster, & it may be the one that gets you great Groups & SD. Never know till you try. Just stay within published load data, & if you do venture beyond published max at your own risk, do so only a small amount, being super cautiousworking up very slowly, & checking closely for pressure signs.

Another thought could be trying a seating depth test with the load that gave you the best SDs? Who knows?

I think the loads you already have that are stacking would do just fine within 500-600yds as is. Just depends on what your intended shooting goals will be with regard to what distances & targets you’ll be shooting. If stretching to 1000yds, I’d work hard to find the load that will group with the lowest SDs.

Just my .02 cents thoughts. That was a great workup, & great shooting!

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Nice! Aside from the cold bore impact on the first group (41.4gr ?) being off just a little, it absolutely stacked! I like the 41.8gr too. Very similar poi’s. Who knows why the SDs were great on the last charge weight, yet it opened up? I still have a ton to learn, and there’s lots I can’t make sense of or explain. So many ideas floatin around my head, but I’m no one that should be giving advice to any reloader, so take what I’m about to propose with a grain of salt.

My initial thought was, although things looked great at 41.4 & 41.8gr, can you push a little higher on the mv to see if the groups & SDs can both come together on the same plane, where pressure & barrel harmonics meet together in magical nirvana? The mythical unicorn we all search for? I’ve never been one to chase high muzzle velocities, but I do recognize that sometimes another node can be obtained that’s a little faster, & it may be the one that gets you great Groups & SD. Never know till you try. Just stay within published load data, & if you do venture beyond published max at your own risk, do so only a small amount, being super cautiousworking up very slowly, & checking closely for pressure signs.

Another thought could be trying a seating depth test with the load that gave you the best SDs? Who knows?

I think the loads you already have that are stacking would do just fine within 500-600yds as is. Just depends on what your intended shooting goals will be with regard to what distances & targets you’ll be shooting. If stretching to 1000yds, I’d work hard to find the load that will group with the lowest SDs.

Just my .02 cents thoughts. That was a great workup, & great shooting!

Thanks. The first group (upper left) is with factory Hornady 140 ELD-M. Not bad for factory ammo and since it shot so well out of my rifles, I wasn't motivated to reload until prices and availability went crazy.

41.8 is what I'll load, the SD and ES were bumped up because of shot #3 that had a snug bolt closure and MV that was 22 FPS higher than others. Otherwise, ES would have been 9. I chose 41.6, 41.8, and 42.0 loads after looking for flat spots from 41.0 - 42.8 (total of 10 rounds) per the Saterlee method. Round count for dialing in a moderate velocity load shooting 2717 fps, ~3/8" 5 shot group, was 27 rounds.

Still learning and refining the process, but in my analysis, I need to uniform my headspace (shoulder bump) to improve my SD. Groups are close to 3/8" so I personally don't need more precision for my purposes in shooting steel and hunting.

Hope that helps, YMMV, and happy shooting

 

[NamibHunter]

@RldrNewby,

I think most of us have had a similar odd experience with a stray piece of brass getting into the wrong batch… we just avoid talking about.

If the brass is not annealed regularly, it will work-harden and that will increase the amount of brass springback. Have seen neck diameters change one thou in OD between annealed and non-annealed brass. Shoulder springback can also change. Sometimes you are forced to change neck sizing bushings to maintain the same neck tension if you stop annealing, or if the brass is getting “old” (reloaded 20 plus times), due to springback changing.

i presume you are always full length sizing? If you have a good load with a fairly long jump, and then intentionally shoulder bump half the batch of fired brass say 0.5 thou and the other half say 4.5 thou (too much, so a bad idea), you will see a rather small difference in average speed. Accuracy (group size) may or may not change.

If you are running a very small jump (or a tiny jam), you could see a big difference in accuracy. The actual amount of jump or jam (distance from the bullet ogive to the lands) is affected by case head to shoulder datum line dimension, because the case indexes off the shoulder if there is a spring loaded ejector pin in the bolt. So you end up with different jump, even if you seated the bullets very accurately, because the cases with less shoulder bump will sit further forward, and the ogive will sit closer to the lands. Changing the jump changes speed (especially if you come out of a hard jam) and changes group size (bullet exit timing). [With careful measurement, you can compensate for such errors, by reseating the bullets, and the speed and accuracy differences will mostly disappear.]

Practically speaking, it is a better idea to get consistent shoulder bump, and anneal at every reload to keep springback very consistent as well. It promotes consistent neck tension, consistent shoulder bump, more accurate seating (jump) when the round is in the chamber, and better brass life.

The AMP annealing machine makes the shoulders slightly softer than flame annealing, and in my experience, gave me slightly more consistent shoulder bump. But flame annealing while counting off the seconds is ok too, once you have used Tempilaq to figure out how many seconds you need.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

I think most of us have had a similar experience with a stray piece of brass getting into the wrong batch… we just avoid talking about.

If the brass is not annealed regularly, it will work harden and that will increase the amount if brass springback. Have seen neck diameters change one thou in OD between annealed and non-annealed brass. Sometimes you are forced to change bushings to maintain the same neck tension.

i presume you are always full length sizing? If you intentionally shoulder bump half a batch of fired brass say 0.5 thou and the other half say 4.5 thou (a bad idea), you will see a rather small difference in average speed. Accuracy (group size) may or may not change. If you are running a very small jump (or a tiny jam), you could see a big difference in accuracy. The actual amount of jump or jam (distance from the bullet ogive to the lands) is affected by case head to shoulder dimension because the case indexes off the shoulder if there is an ejector pin in the bolt. So you end up with different jump, even if you seated the bullets accurately, because the cases with less shoulder bump will sit further forward, and the ogive will sit closer to the lands. Changing the jump

(and thus shoulder bump, due to springback differences or die setting). If you sort these loaded rounds based on base to ogive, and then correct them all to be

Yes, although these were 1x fired brass, I full-length resized ~120 Hornady brass. I even weighed out the casesI reloaded to be within 1 gr of each other.

My technique and how much force I exerted on the handle of my old-school Lee press had some variance and the best I could normalize was +/-.002" on the shoulder comparator between cases.

I'm still learning about the importance of proper lube and having the right "touch" at the stops and continuing to learn on this forum.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. More testing for groups at 300 next time but the proof will be if I can reliably ring steel out to 1100 yards.

YMMV and happy shooting

 

[RldrNewby]

I think most of us have had a similar experience with a stray piece of brass getting into the wrong batch… we just avoid talking about.

If the brass is not annealed regularly, it will work-harden and that will increase the amount of brass springback. Have seen neck diameters change one thou in OD between annealed and non-annealed brass. Sometimes you are forced to change bushings to maintain the same neck tension if you stop annealing, or if the brass is getting “old” (reloaded 20 plus times).

i presume you are always full length sizing? If you have a good load with a fairly long jump, and then intentionally shoulder bump half the batch of fired brass say 0.5 thou and the other half say 4.5 thou (too much, so a bad idea), you will see a rather small difference in average speed. Accuracy (group size) may or may not change.

If you are running a very small jump (or a tiny jam), you could see a big difference in accuracy. The actual amount of jump or jam (distance from the bullet ogive to the lands) is affected by case head to shoulder datum line dimension, because the case indexes off the shoulder if there is a spring loaded ejector pin in the bolt. So you end up with different jump, even if you seated the bullets very accurately, because the cases with less shoulder bump will sit further forward, and the ogive will sit closer to the lands. Changing the jump changes speed (especially if you come out of a hard jam) and changes group size (bullet exit timing). [With careful measurement, you can compensate for such errors, by reseating the bullets, and the speed and accuracy differences will mostly disappear.]

Practically speaking, it is a better idea to get consistent shoulder bump, and anneal at every reload to keep springback very consistent as well.

Good info. My preference is Anneal & FL Bushing with shoulder bump each time. Personally, I haven’t tried a jam, light jam, or slightly off the lands approach yet. I’ve measured my jam with the Hornady modified case a few times, & I did contemplate giving it a try, but didn’t feel comfortable with it given my skill set. I’ve only been reloading for a year or two, so in that time, I’ve focused more on refining & improving my brass prep process, my tools, my powder measuring accuracy potential, and my load development practices instead. I was afraid I might get into trouble with pressure spikes if I got too far into the lands, & decided to play it safe due to my experience level, & restricted myself to magazine length and slightly shorter seating depths. Mag length & under may not provide me with the best accuracy potential for my rifle, but it’s served me pretty well so far, & feel like it’s kept me out of trouble being relatively new at this hobby.

I do a good bit of reading, & I was intrigued by something Eric Cortana proposed about seating depth in relation to bullet release & barrel harmonics. My interpretation was that he liked to think of it as a Sine Wave. So, in my mind, if a Sine Wave runs the same amplitude of peaks & valleys throughout the practical range of possible seating depths, in theory, one should be able to find a seating depth that will fall into the sweet spot of that Sine Wave, even at mag length or shorter, which is comparable to that which could be attained from a jam, slight jam, or slightly off. Makes sense, but I also think a jam, slight jam, or slightly off may possibly add a new dynamic where magic happens by effecting the initial pressure curve, which could either add magic to your performance or headache. My thoughts were for me, the juice just wouldn’t be worth the squeeze bc to maintain the performance characteristic a jam, slight jam, or just off seating depth offers, one would have to continually monitor and maintain that tight distance which is married to that specific seating depth in relation to the amount of throat erosion encountered by the barrel over time. I suppose a good seating depth at mag length or shorter would have to account for that erosion as well, but maybe it isn’t as critical? Who knows?

Geez... my head hurts just trying to to put all those thoughts into words. Can it be done to great effect? Yes, & many ppl do, but for me, I don’t know that my skill level is quite up to it just yet. My biggest improvements so far in performance have come from using quality brass (I love Lapua in my .223, but couldn’t find any for my 6.5cm), annealing to relieve work hardness & reduce spring back, as consistent shoulder bump & neck tension as I can get out of my Type S Bushing Die (targeting .002 on each), and an accurate scale. Those improvements made my results look like I’ve been reloading longer than I have, lol. Still much to learn tho.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I think most of us have had a similar experience with a stray piece of brass getting into the wrong batch… we just avoid talking about.

If the brass is not annealed regularly, it will work-harden and that will increase the amount of brass springback. Have seen neck diameters change one thou in OD between annealed and non-annealed brass. Sometimes you are forced to change bushings to maintain the same neck tension if you stop annealing, or if the brass is getting “old” (reloaded 20 plus times).

i presume you are always full length sizing? If you have a good load with a fairly long jump, and then intentionally shoulder bump half the batch of fired brass say 0.5 thou and the other half say 4.5 thou (too much, so a bad idea), you will see a rather small difference in average speed. Accuracy (group size) may or may not change.

If you are running a very small jump (or a tiny jam), you could see a big difference in accuracy. The actual amount of jump or jam (distance from the bullet ogive to the lands) is affected by case head to shoulder datum line dimension, because the case indexes off the shoulder if there is a spring loaded ejector pin in the bolt. So you end up with different jump, even if you seated the bullets very accurately, because the cases with less shoulder bump will sit further forward, and the ogive will sit closer to the lands. Changing the jump changes speed (especially if you come out of a hard jam) and changes group size (bullet exit timing). [With careful measurement, you can compensate for such errors, by reseating the bullets, and the speed and accuracy differences will mostly disappear.]

Practically speaking, it is a better idea to get consistent shoulder bump, and anneal at every reload to keep springback very consistent as well.

It's funny that annealing has been mentioned and is now dominating the conversation. I just got my annealer set up yesterday. it's an Annealeez. After a little tweaking from hard handling in shipping, it's running great.

All of my Hornaday brass was at least once fired, not sure how many, but it was pretty clean. In my load developement I was using the same six pieces a few times in a row. Quick resize, no trim if in spec, prime, powder and bullet. With my bad ass super smooth MEC reloading machine, I could definately tell the necks were getting tighter as I went along. I ground up a mandrel to push in each case before priming to clean out any chamfer burr and verify neck ID, similar to a gage pin. This is when I decided to try annealing.

I did just a few so far, but I did resize them and could tell they went through the sizing process much easier!

Am I correct in seeing the heat line about .250 below the shoulder? I could probably slow it down just a touch for a little more heat exposure, but figured I'd start safe.

 

[RldrNewby]

It's funny that annealing has been mentioned and is now dominating the conversation. I just got my annealer set up yesterday. it's an Annealeez. After a little tweaking from hard handling in shipping, it's running great.

All of my Hornaday brass was at least once fired, not sure how many, but it was pretty clean. In my load developement I was using the same six pieces a few times in a row. Quick resize, no trim if in spec, prime, powder and bullet. With my bad ass super smooth MEC reloading machine, I could definately tell the necks were getting tighter as I went along. I ground up a mandrel to push in each case before priming to clean out any chamfer burr and verify neck ID, similar to a gage pin. This is when I decided to try annealing.

I did just a few so far, but I did resize them and could tell they went through the sizing process much easier!

Am I correct in seeing the heat line about .250 below the shoulder? I could probably slow it down just a touch for a little more heat exposure, but figured I'd start safe.

That sounds about right. In my research, Annealing techniques vary widely, and it’s a point of contention that seems to be argued a good bit. The Annealeez is all I could afford, but it’s done great for me. It just takes a little experimentation on the settings to find what works best for each Brass make. What I set mine at for Hornady 6.5 is different than what I set it for Nosler 6.5. Tempilaq appears to be best practice, but I don’t have any yet. My method may not be right, but all I’m doing is trying to keep the blue flame just off the junction of the shoulder & neck of the case where the blue meets up with the heat that’s coming back off the case, forming a nice little bubble. As soon as I’ve verified flame placement, I flip the light off so the room is dark, and adjust the motor speed where it dumps the case as soon as the neck starts to get the slightest bit of orange color. I’ve noticed if the cases are clean, and the blue flame isn’t pounding the case, I can get that slight orange color change without burning off any elements from the brass itself, which can be observed if you’re seeing a crazy green/blue/yellow jet of flames flying off the case on the opposite side of the torch. When I have it adjusted the way I described, my line is typically a 1/4” or maybe slightly lower than the leading edge of the shoulder. As I said, my method may not be right, but it’s working so far, & I would be open to any suggestions if I’m messing up.

The pic below is what mine look like after annealing & tumbling.

 

[sjmpcc022]

That sounds about right. In my research, Annealing techniques vary widely, and it’s a point of contention that seems to be argued a good bit. The Annealeez is all I could afford, but it’s done great for me. It just takes a little experimentation on the settings to find what works best for each Brass make. What I set mine at for Hornady 6.5 is different than what I set it for Nosler 6.5. Tempilaq appears to be best practice, but I don’t have any yet. My method may not be right, but all I’m doing is trying to keep the blue flame just off the junction of the shoulder & neck of the case where the blue meets up with the heat that’s coming back off the case, forming a nice little bubble. As soon as I’ve verified flame placement, I flip the light off so the room is dark, and adjust the motor speed where it dumps the case as soon as the neck starts to get the slightest bit of orange color. I’ve noticed if the cases are clean, and the blue flame isn’t pounding the case, I can get that slight orange color change without burning off any elements from the brass itself, which can be observed if you’re seeing a crazy green/blue/yellow jet of flames flying off the case on the opposite side of the torch. When I have it adjusted the way I described, my line is typically a 1/4” or maybe slightly lower than the leading edge of the shoulder. As I said, my method may not be right, but it’s working so far, & I would be open to any suggestions if I’m messing up.

The pic below is what mine look like after annealing & tumbling.

View attachment 7641331

I'm probably on the light side, as I figured. I have it set up on my tailgate in the garage, and last night I did a few with the lights off. Not to find orange, but because after a few drinky it looked really cool! Now that you mention orange, mine wasn't quite that hot, easy fix.

After I unpacked mine and realized it wasn't close to working, I e mailed Jeff. He explained how it was supposed to be and I fixed it from there. He did tell me how to time the wheels. I really think that little nugget SHOULD be in the instructions with the machine. In case you were wondering, the slot in the bottom wheel is 12:00 and the top wheel is 4:00. This gives your case almost one full rev on the bottom wheel before it drops.

Makes sense.

 

[RldrNewby]

Addendum:
To clarify for anyone who may be at the entry level of reloading, most ppl would agree that annealing usually isn’t required until you’ve loaded & fired cases 3-4x. When I first started reloading, I had fired some of my Hornady Brass over 8x without annealing before seeing signs of brittle necks. I definitely had work hardened brass bc I had to keep messing with my resizing die to get the shoulder bump I was shooting for, & eventually I got a split neck or two before I ditched that brass & got new. Load was mild, & primer pockets never gave up. If you don’t shoot a ton, your brass might last long enough that you don’t need to anneal. So, If new to reloading, & you don’t have a way to anneal, don’t panic just yet. I do think it is a great tool to consider adding to your process though in that it helps to uniform your brass spring back, which makes shoulder bump/neck tensions more consistent, bullet seating more consistent, & neck expansion to seal the gasses more consistent when the round is fired. Some may not agree, but my opinion is that if you do add annealing to your process, it’s important to anneal before you size. My current process straight in from the range with fired brass is:

1-Straight thru universal de-capper.
2-Soak my brass in warm water with a little liquid Dawn added. (I shoot suppressed, & feel like it helps break down some of the residues from my gas guns, & works on the primer pockets some.
3-Rinse till no more suds, shake off, & tumble till dry.
4–Anneal.
5-Resize.
6-Tumble again to get lube off.
7-Trim.
8-Run thru a multi station brass prep center setup with: Primer pocket uniformer (if it makes no contact, go over to primer pocket ash remover for a light touch), chamfer, debur, inside case neck brush.

 

[RldrNewby]

I'm probably on the light side, as I figured. I have it set up on my tailgate in the garage, and last night I did a few with the lights off. Not to find orange, but because after a few drinky it looked really cool! Now that you mention orange, mine wasn't quite that hot, easy fix.

After I unpacked mine and realized it wasn't close to working, I e mailed Jeff. He explained how it was supposed to be and I fixed it from there. He did tell me how to time the wheels. I really think that little nugget SHOULD be in the instructions with the machine. In case you were wondering, the slot in the bottom wheel is 12:00 and the top wheel is 4:00. This gives your case almost one full rev on the bottom wheel before it drops.

Makes sense.

Lol, I agree . I struggled with wheel timing too. It was set fine for 6.5 when I got it, but .223 rolled right on thru. A little tinkering and head scratchin, & I finally figured it out. Good to know though. I really like the Annealeez. Once dialed in, it can chew through some brass. It’s actually the only thing I enjoy doing in brass prep

 

[Zack_va248]

Addendum:
To clarify for anyone who may be at the entry level of reloading, most ppl would agree that annealing usually isn’t required until you’ve loaded & fired cases 3-4x. When I first started reloading, I had fired some of my Hornady Brass over 8x without annealing before seeing signs of brittle necks. I definitely had work hardened brass bc I had to keep messing with my resizing die to get the shoulder bump I was shooting for, & eventually I got a split neck or two before I ditched that brass & got new. Load was mild, & primer pockets never gave up. If you don’t shoot a ton, your brass might last long enough that you don’t need to anneal. So, If new to reloading, & you don’t have a way to anneal, don’t panic just yet. I do think it is a great tool to consider adding to your process though in that it helps to uniform your brass spring back, which makes shoulder bump/neck tensions more consistent, bullet seating more consistent, & neck expansion to seal the gasses more consistent when the round is fired. Some may not agree, but my opinion is that if you do add annealing to your process, it’s important to anneal before you size. My current process straight in from the range with fired brass is:

1-Straight thru universal de-capper.
2-Soak my brass in warm water with a little liquid Dawn added. (I shoot suppressed, & feel like it helps break down some of the residues from my gas guns, & works on the primer pockets some.
3-Rinse till no more suds, shake off, & tumble till dry.
4–Anneal.
5-Resize.
6-Tumble again to get lube off.
7-Trim.
8-Run thru a multi station brass prep center setup with: Primer pocket uniformer (if it makes no contact, go over to primer pocket ash remover for a light touch), chamfer, debur, inside case neck brush.

My process is just about identical with good results
Alpha srp
40.0g h4350

Cci450
Berger 140 hybrids
.020”jump
First 9 down my benchmark 4 groove, first shot center target left hole was off my bore sight.

Chambered by Travis at TS Customs
It’s got a .175fb chamber so I can still fit in mag length with smaller jumps. Ocw to follow

 

[RldrNewby]

My process is just about identical with good results
Alpha srp
40.0g h4350View attachment 7641449
Cci450
Berger 140 hybrids
.020”jump
First 9 down my benchmark 4 groove, first shot center target left hole was off my bore sight.

Chambered by Travis at TS Customs
It’s got a .175fb chamber so I can still fit in mag length with smaller jumps. Ocw to follow

Wow! Extremely impressive. I think you’ve got a shooter for sure

 

[NamibHunter]

Good info. My preference is Anneal & FL Bushing with shoulder bump each time. Personally, I haven’t tried a jam, light jam, or slightly off the lands approach yet. I’ve measured my jam with the Hornady modified case a few times, & I did contemplate giving it a try, but didn’t feel comfortable with it given my skill set. I’ve only been reloading for a year or two, so in that time, I’ve focused more on refining & improving my brass prep process, my tools, my powder measuring accuracy potential, and my load development practices instead. I was afraid I might get into trouble with pressure spikes if I got too far into the lands, & decided to play it safe due to my experience level, & restricted myself to magazine length and slightly shorter seating depths. Mag length & under may not provide me with the best accuracy potential for my rifle, but it’s served me pretty well so far, & feel like it’s kept me out of trouble being relatively new at this hobby.

I do a good bit of reading, & I was intrigued by something Eric Cortana proposed about seating depth in relation to bullet release & barrel harmonics. My interpretation was that he liked to think of it as a Sine Wave. So, in my mind, if a Sine Wave runs the same amplitude of peaks & valleys throughout the practical range of possible seating depths, in theory, one should be able to find a seating depth that will fall into the sweet spot of that Sine Wave, even at mag length or shorter, which is comparable to that which could be attained from a jam, slight jam, or slightly off. Makes sense, but I also think a jam, slight jam, or slightly off may possibly add a new dynamic where magic happens by effecting the initial pressure curve, which could either add magic to your performance or headache. My thoughts were for me, the juice just wouldn’t be worth the squeeze bc to maintain the performance characteristic a jam, slight jam, or just off seating depth offers, one would have to continually monitor and maintain that tight distance which is married to that specific seating depth in relation to the amount of throat erosion encountered by the barrel over time. I suppose a good seating depth at mag length or shorter would have to account for that erosion as well, but maybe it isn’t as critical? Who knows?

Geez... my head hurts just trying to to put all those thoughts into words. Can it be done to great effect? Yes, & many ppl do, but for me, I don’t know that my skill level is quite up to it just yet. My biggest improvements so far in performance have come from using quality brass (I love Lapua in my .223, but couldn’t find any for my 6.5cm), annealing to relieve work hardness & reduce spring back, as consistent shoulder bump & neck tension as I can get out of my Type S Bushing Die (targeting .002 on each), and an accurate scale. Those improvements made my results look like I’ve been reloading longer than I have, lol. Still much to learn tho.

Always a good idea to start simple. And if at all possible, keeping it simple! Most of us will not gain all that much from the very complicated approach BR folks get into, because we do not run tight chambers. They get excited about a 0.1” improvement in group size. If a newby BR competitor just went from 0.28” to 0.18”, he will be ecstatic, as that is the difference between below the middle of the pack to being almost competitive! If we steel-shooting tinkerers get from 0.55” to 0.45”, it is not nearly so “momentous”. Hit percentage at 1000 yards will remain almost the same. A 25% lower SD will do far more good for us at 1000.

Eric is correct that optimizing “ignition” (find powder charge for best possible ES, and best powder/primer choice) is completely decoupled from optimizing group size. He fires his first 30 or so rounds into the berm while looking for a nice wide flat spot in the speed graph. I presume he does not want to get “biased” by seeing the groups. And group size is meaningless at this early stage anyway. Then he goes on to seating depth optimization to pull in the group. Most of us just can’t resist “peeking” and shooting the initial powder optimization rounds at paper, hoping to get lucky and see a flat spot in speed appear simultaneously with a tiny group. That rarely happens in my experience…

Idea is to first vary powder charge to get a wide flat spot in speed, which very often also gives a low ES (often below 10 for 5 round groups), with enough speed, but still well below max pressure. The highest node is not always the best (can be narrow, it is tough on your brass, and slightly accelerates barrel wear). That last 100 fps gains you very little in terms of wind drift reduction at 1000. Run the ballistics calcs and check for yourself! Even if the group size is 0.8” when in the node, use it anyway, and move on to seating dept optimization to reduce the group size. I use a tuner simply because it is more convenient. Seating dept does the exact same thing.

[Add: Yes there is a very slight connection (dependence) between seating depth and speed if you change jump from 3 thou to 20 thou. Over that limited range, the two optimization variables are practically independent. But: A very large change in COAL can move you 20 to 100 fps, enough to push you out of the speed flat spot. That is only an issue if you go from short bullet jump in the 3-20 thou range, to a jam, or if you go from 3 thou to very long jump like 80-250 thou - to get a long bullet to fit in the mag. Treat those three “regimes” as separate load development efforts. Decide ahead of time which approach you want to go for (and why). Especially speed will go way up if you jam the bullet hard, and powder charge will have to come down 1.0 to 1.5 grains.]

 

[NamibHunter]

Yes, although these were 1x fired brass, I full-length resized ~120 Hornady brass. I even weighed out the casesI reloaded to be within 1 gr of each other.

My technique and how much force I exerted on the handle of my old-school Lee press had some variance and the best I could normalize was +/-.002" on the shoulder comparator between cases.

I'm still learning about the importance of proper lube and having the right "touch" at the stops and continuing to learn on this forum.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. More testing for groups at 300 next time but the proof will be if I can reliably ring steel out to 1100 yards.

YMMV and happy shooting

You prepped your Hornady brass well.

Btw one way to get hold of Lapua brass is to buy a few boxes of Berger factory ammo. High quality ammo, and you end up with premium brass for reloading. I saw an SDs of 8 and an ES of 28 fps in the best batch i tried. Worst batch had an SD of 12, which is still very good for factory ammo.

Midway had some 130 gn Berger ammo earlier in the week. The Berger hunting ammo comes in Lapua LRP brass, while the target ammo is in SRP brass, or at least it was when i tried it. Probably still the same.

Lapua SRP brass can be reloaded 25-30 times if you avoid over pressure situations. The few cases used for your pressure testing might not last that long. I am not sure about brass life for their LRP cases, but probably 12-15 reloads - if you are careful. Worth a try, as their weight range is very narrow, and concentricity also improves.

 

[RldrNewby]

Always a good idea to start simple. And if at all possible, keeping it simple! Most of us will not gain all that much from the very complicated approach BR folks get into, because we do not run tight chambers. They get excited about a 0.1” improvement in group size. If a newby BR competitor just went from 0.28” to 0.18”, he will be ecstatic, as that is the difference between below the middle of the pack to being almost competitive! If we steel-shooting tinkerers get from 0.55” to 0.45”, it is not nearly so “momentous”. Hit percentage at 1000 yards will remain almost the same. A 25% lower SD will do far more good for us at 1000.

Eric is correct that optimizing “ignition” (find powder charge for best possible ES, and best powder/primer choice) is completely decoupled from optimizing group size. He fires his first 30 or so rounds into the berm while looking for a nice wide flat spot in the speed graph. I presume he does not want to get “biased” by seeing the groups. And group size is meaningless at this stage anyway. Then he goes on to seating depth optimization to pull in the group. Most of us just can’t resist “peaking” (shooting the initial powder optimization rounds at paper), hoping to get lucky and see a flat spot in speed appear simultaneously with a tiny group. That rarely happens in my experience…

Idea is to first vary powder charge to get a wide flat spot in speed, which very often also gives a low ES (often below 10 for 5 round groups), with enough speed, but still well below max pressure. The highest node is not always the best (can be narrow, it is tough on your brass, and slightly accelerates barrel wear). That last 100 fps gains you very little in terms of wind drift reduction at 1000. Run the ballistics calcs and check for yourself! Even if the group size is 0.8” when in the node, use it anyway, and move on to seating dept optimization. I use a tuner simply because it is more convenient. Seating dept does the exact same thing.

Well said. I’m guilty of peaking for sure. Can’t help it, lol. I’ve tried a bunch of different load development techniques, and they have all worked, but I eventually evolved into a hybrid version where I combine things into using three shots each of .2gr incremental charge weights shot round robin with a chronograph at bullseyes on a grid pattern (Did not shoot last test round robin, but usually do). If I’ve already shot the weight class bullet I’m testing using the same brass, powder, & primer combo, & I already have a faintly decent idea of where to start, I usually find that I only need 7 increments of powder to cover the range my research indicates will likely produce the node I’m looking for... so that’s around 24 shots (if I add a 3 shot fouler/test group prior to the test). My hybrid version is definitely more than 10 rounds in the Saterlee method, but it’s still not using a ton of components, and it gives me several different snapshots of data to give me an idea of what all is going on. I can evaluate for poi shifts, flat spots in MV, SDs, and vertical or horizontal patterns. I do use the Chrono data to look for flat spots as well, where the change in muzzle velocity slows down between increments. It doesn’t always pan out perfect, but typically I find my SDs are the lowest in those flat spots, & often my groups are the tightest there as well. That may not always be the case, but when it’s not, my theory is that some barrel contours & harmonics are more or less tolerable or sensitive to seating depths & charge weights. The Berger bullets I shot on my last test were ridiculously consistent on overall groups over 7 different charge weights. I don’t think any were over an inch in group size, so without Chrono data, it would’ve made picking a load really tough. I most likely got really lucky with my heavier barrel harmonics & seating depth I ran the test with, & would venture to guess that with a pencil barrel contour and a less optimal seating depth, the test would’ve produced much more obvious differences in group sizes between charge increments.

As far as keeping it simple, I think you are right on the money. There is definitely a point of diminishing return where we can spend way more time than necessary for the goals we have as everyday steel plinkers. I have a much more complex process than when I first began, but I also enjoy the tinkering. You are also right, in that keeping it simple is probably for the best unless you intend to BR, or like me, just enjoy the science & experimenting. You have sound ideas, and I appreciate folks who don’t mind sharing what they’ve learned over the years. No sense in re-inventing wheels!

 

[frer]

I'm gonna go ahead and call this good. Pretty happy with this out of a factory rifle. 41.9gr RL 16, CCI 200, 2.240" CBTO. Thanks for all of tips and helping me through my frustrations. Hasn't been the easiest load development but I learned TONS!


View attachment 7640623

What bullet is this? Looked back through the thread but it is not clear to me. I have some RL16 and 140gr Hornady BTHP that I am going to work up a load for, but can't find much data. Alliant lists 42.6 gr for 140gr SST so was going to use that as a maximum and start at 41.8gr working up from there. Does that sound reasonable?