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I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.I have 300 Alpha 6.5cm cases coming Tuesday. I haven't weight-sorted the Hornady yet because I had already primed some of the brass. Maybe I'll sort it tomorrow, or maybe I'll just sell it. The Hornady just seems to be all over the place. I know my primers are good (I've seen several tests where Federal 210's performed just as well as their "Match" counterparts), and I know my charge weights are accurate + or - a kernel of powder. I had several groups today that had ESs of middle to low single digits and then the ES up or down .2 were horrendous. It's always one that opens it up, and can be in either direction velocity-wise. Oh, and it's not even Match brass. It's American Gunner. Which, from what I've heard, is even more horrendous. I'm not going to load anything else in this brass as I feel I'm wasting time, and materials. Thank you for your wisdom. I'll be sure to report back Friday afternoon/evening with the results from the Alpha brass.
I wasn't able to go out last Friday. Shooting for Thursday this week.I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.
The ESs of the American Gunner I've seen over the several times I've chrono'd it was between 52 and 60 fps on 10-shot strings. Handloading (using the AG brass) has cut those in half. Still not good enough. I've had several 3-shot groups shoot ES into the low to mid single digits, but there always seems to be one or two that screw things up. And I'm not talking 15 fps difference. I'm talking 30-40fps or more.I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.
I've reloaded large batch of Hornady brass that came from American Gunner and ELD Match factory ammo 4 times. Primarily using Federal 210s, 140 ELDMS and H4350. I have been able to get the SDs to average around 6-9 range over 4 firings. In my experience, the key has been to anneal/trim every firing and uniform neck tension with mandrel. I have also been tossing the cases that appear to be outliers as I go. That said, you could likely achieve better results with less effort and less powder using Lapua brass.I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.
Stats - Average | 2754.71 | fps |
Stats - Highest | 2767.92 | fps |
Stats - Lowest | 2745.48 | fps |
Stats - Ext. Spread | 22.44 | fps |
Stats - Std. Dev | 8.27 | fps |
Stats - Average | 2760.36 | fps |
Stats - Highest | 2767.84 | fps |
Stats - Lowest | 2755.35 | fps |
Stats - Ext. Spread | 12.48 | fps |
Stats - Std. Dev | 5.16 | fps |
I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.
Got out today to test 142gr SMK, 41.5gr H4350, Alpha Munitions Brass (new).
Tikka T3X TAC A1 24in
View attachment 7619615
Forgot I was not using my AR10 on the first shot. Heh.
5 Shots, warm rifle, not hot:
Stats - Average 2754.71fps Stats - Highest 2767.92fps Stats - Lowest 2745.48fps Stats - Ext. Spread 22.44fps Stats - Std. Dev 8.27fps
The cold rifle lab radar results:
Stats - Average 2760.36fps Stats - Highest 2767.84fps Stats - Lowest 2755.35fps Stats - Ext. Spread 12.48fps Stats - Std. Dev 5.16fps
Guess I’m done with load development.
What bullet?These are only 3 shot groups to get a feel of where I need to concentrate. Alpha brass is definitely thicker than the Hornady AG I was using. Getting pressure signs much earlier and unable to hit that 2950-ish node. The rifle seems to like to be around 2825+/-. I’m going to explore 41.6-42.0gr H4350 some more. The 41.4 of RL16 seems to be an outlier. The group is fantastic (I don’t really count 3-round groups tbh), but the SD, ES, and POI leave a lot to be desired. Maybe I’ll load a few up around there and try again. Not too bad, though. I think I could fine tune her to a 1/4 MOA factory rifle.
Btw what scale are you using?
Good shooting!
What type of shooting are you doing?Quick question for the ones who know...Following Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, how many different groups of .003 seating depth difference would you expect to have to shoot in order to find a node? In other words, I'm working up a load and have selected my charge weight. I'm starting at 2.260" CBTO and working down to 2.233" CBTO (10 different seating depths). Do you think that would be sufficient to find a node or should I load up another 10? Oh, and ALL of my initial development (velocities) were done with Federal 210 LRPs, but I just got in 15,000 CCI 200s. So I've loaded 10 groups with each primer, looking to see which performs better with my load/rifle. Thanks, boys!
Honestly I've loaded the vast majority of my rifles to .020" off the lands and called that good. I'm sure I could squeeze more out of my rifles if I really tried and played with seating depth, but my last build I was getting ~.3" (best) and .75" (worst) groups when I was doing my powder charge testing. I settled on one that gets around .4", but works well in the summer, and it holds half MOA to 800. I think I fall off further than 800 rather than the rifle. Based on your other response about the American gunner, maybe work up a load that gets you similar velocities with the same bullet from that ammo? Like you said the ES probably isn't great, but with handloaded ammo it should tighten that up.Quick question for the ones who know...Following Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, how many different groups of .003 seating depth difference would you expect to have to shoot in order to find a node? In other words, I'm working up a load and have selected my charge weight. I'm starting at 2.260" CBTO and working down to 2.233" CBTO (10 different seating depths). Do you think that would be sufficient to find a node or should I load up another 10? Oh, and ALL of my initial development (velocities) were done with Federal 210 LRPs, but I just got in 15,000 CCI 200s. So I've loaded 10 groups with each primer, looking to see which performs better with my load/rifle. Thanks, boys!
My average velocity decreased by 15fps on my once-fired Alpha brass. It seems that most people see an INCREASE of velocity. Also, ES and SD are FAR from where I want them. Using only a 3-shot group per seating depth, per primer brand (shot 3 shots at 2.260, 2.257, 2.254 etc with Fed 210, and another 3-shot group, same depth with CCI 200) some groups were in the single digits ES-wise and some were 40+. I realize that 3-shot groups aren't statistically relevant, but from my understanding seating depth produces very, very little effect on ES/SD Overall ES on 10 different seating depths (30 shots each primer) using Fed 210s was 49fps and 61fps using CCI 200s. I did manage to get some nice groups at 100, with some good ES and SD numbers. All groups at .250" or better were at or less than 15fps ES (again, only 3-shot groups). Not a happy camper at the moment. I'm using a FX120 scale to measure each and every powder charge, Redding Comp S seating die, Redding Comp S FL resizing die (bumping .002") with a .288 bushing. No mandrel yet, but one on the way as the only thing I can think is holding me back is proper (consistent) neck tension? Everything else is quality instruments and measured every single time. Any ideas? This is damn near the same ES/SD numbers I'm getting from crappy AG rounds.
Done and done.If your powder is consistent I would assume it’s neck tension. Seating depth would not cause that large of a spread on its own, in my opinion.
I would definitely invest in a mandrel and then buy yourself pin gages. 0.2610 to 0.2640 and verify if you have consistent neck tension. I know I’m meticulous on brass prep...each piece gets the same treatment (typically Lapua) but out of 100 cases I’ll get 10% that “fallout” on either side of my target by more than 0.0005 (and I anneal every firing). Something to watch for is how large is your fired neck and how much are you trying to size it down...you may find for the most consistent sizing you need to use two sizes of bushings and size in increments. Pin gages were the missing “tool” for me. (I use Vermont Gage ZZ minus pins)
TONS of great info here. I'm going to have to get your phone number because you always seem to respond to my posts with very helpful tips and suggestions . Lots of info to unpack here, so here goes:Agree, that ES is way too large for Alpha brass. Something else is going on here….
The commonality seems to be the gun and not the ammo: The America Gunner ammo could be expected to give a larger than ideal ES, maybe around 40-48 fps, but the Alpha brass loaded on a good lab scale should be 20-30 fps, maybe 35 fps at most.
Could be firing pin fall: Maybe there is oil, grease or gunk left inside the bolt body occasionally retarding the firing pin movement, leading to some normal and some light primer strikes? Some triggers can also get defective and cause this problem. Some bolts do a lot better after they have been bushed (Gretan is a good choice, but there are other options too), as the bushing guides the firing pin in a better way.
I would check these mechanical issues first. If you have a buddy that loads good ammo with an ES of say 25 fps or better for a large sample of 50+ cases (so an SD below 10 fps), try his ammo in your rifle. He may need to correct his shoulder bump for head space differences. Pay more attention to SD than ES. ES is an unreliable statistical metric, one bad outlier due to a dud primer or a powder charging mistake can skew it really badly. You will likely not be in a “node” (flat spot on the speed graph), but SD should go up (at most) to 12 or 13 fps. If SD is 3x or 4x in your rifle, then almost certainly it is the rifle, not the ammo. [Or try to get Berger factory ammo (unobtanium right now, except for Gunbroker, and then you have to tolerate their extortionist prices). I always get an SD between 8 and 12 fps with this ammo. ES should be 3-4x the SD number. ]
Now for the possible but rather unlikely causes:
Check your scale for drift: Measure a pan, zero it, pull the pan out, and watch that negative nr over a 3 day period. It should not move by more than 0.04 gn. It is VERY unlikely for the FX120 to do this, but very easy to check.
Brass could perhaps also contribute to the problem: Check the weight range of the Alpha brass, should be 3 gn or less difference. VERY unlikely to be the problem. [Yes volume sorting is better, but it is slow and messy.]
Could be neck tension, and using a set or pin gauges is a great way to check them. I use a K&M arbor press with a force measurement tip to accurately measure seating force. In my experience, springback differences due to different flame annealing times or perhaps different metallurgy (brass composition, factory mistakes) could lead to a 50% changes in seating force. [You can pick this up with cheap pin gauges, and you don’t need to spend $200 on the K&M press and an LE Wilson seater die.]
AMP machine is very consistent if the necks are fairly similar thickness. [I neck turn all my brass, but the benefit is tiny if you start with premium brass.] You can easily feel a 50% change in seating force with a standard reloading press. It is possible to get it down to 10-15% if you cull the cases that have exceptionally thick or thin necks (rarely seen in premium brass), cases that consistently have way different springback (have seen that in all brass). Mark those suspect cases by putting a deep scratch on the case head. If it happens twice in a row, cull it out.
Btw: Using graphite lube like Imperial Dry Lube could help to lower the seating force (which may help or hurt, as it changes the bullet exit time during the barrel whip cycle). I have found that it makes seating force a little more consistent. But it does seem to help minimize “bullet weld” problems if you store the ammo for a long time (weeks to months).
AMP machine leaves a red copper oxide inside the case neck that can lead to high and variable seating force, thoroughly brush that out or tumble for another hour after annealing. There is a video on the AMP web site about this.
Check your primer weight range for 20 primers. If ES is more than 12 milligram, you got a bad batch of primers, and you may need to weight sort them (and that is a royal pain in the behind). Unlikely in your case as you tried two different brands already.
Best of luck!
Btw i have only seen this problem twice in 10 years: One time the inside of the bolt body got dirty, first symptom was that the ES went way up (doubled), then after a while i started to see misfires (light primer strike), and eventually the gun would go click but the round would not fire, and there was not even a light mark on the primer. I put the same round back in the chamber and it fired, and had the normal speed. Went home, cleaned it out with a gun cleaning solvent, and the problem went away.
The other time it happened, i dumped powder into a brand new stainless steel bowl to set up the autotrickler, and the remainder went back into the 8 lbs jug. Did not realize that there was a sticky oily residue in the bowl from the manufacturing process. It seems the powder got contaminated and ES went to hell. That 8 lbs jug soon became fertilizer for the garden. Turned the grass into a nice bright green. Expensive mistake!
TONS of great info here. I'm going to have to get your phone number because you always seem to respond to my posts with very helpful tips and suggestions . Lots of info to unpack here, so here goes:
-I haven't seen ANY light primer strikes. All of them look perfectly uniform. I haven't had any misfires or hang fires. Also, as you said, I'm seeing the problem with both brands. Unlikely to be the primers.
-I've checked the scale for drift. Left it on for a week at a time and it doesn't drift. It read -74.96gr for at least a week. I don't think the scale is the problem.
-I measured 30 random cases (10 out of each lot of 100) and they were all within .78 grains. I didn't bother weight sorting them with measurements that close.
-I use an Anealeez (always read "Anal-Eez" lol). It seems to do a perfectly serviceable job. I have it set on about 45%. In a dark room, the brass JUST barely starts to glow when it's taken out of the flame. Haven't used Tempilaq and sacrificed a case, though.
-I have a K&M arbor press and an LE Wilson seater, but just got the VLD plunger for it yesterday so I have been seating on the Redding micrometer (all within .0005 of my target depth CBTO). No noticeable difference of feel, but that's on a Lee Classic Turret. I'd love to upgrade to a "better" press, but I've seen perfectly good ammo made with this press by lots of people, including some .243 done myself.
-I have an expander body and mandrel on the way, along with some Imperial Dry Lube and pin gauges. I was sizing with the bushing only (expander ball and decapping pin removed) which apparently pushes any imperfections to the inside of the case, at least from what I've read.
I think that about sums it up for now. I'll keep updating as I improve the process and HOPEFULLY get where I need to be. I'm sure this thread will help out others in the future that are in the same boat as me. Thanks!
My process looks like this right now, but will soon change by adding the mandrel into the equation:Lots of good information here posted by others, I'll throw in my two cents too.
All my brass gets the same prep, currently Hornady but just got some Alpha and can't wait to get that stuff going! Step 1 is decap, I use a Lee APP for this because I don't like to get my 750 dirty. Step 2 is tumble, I recently switched to porcelain media from wet stainless pins and am really happy with the results. Step 3 is anneal, I use an AMP and have been really happy with the consistency. I used to use an annealeeze and wasn't getting great consistency so I switched. Step 3 is size/initial expansion, I use my Redding type s FL sizer that takes the neck down to .260" and then I use a .261" mandrel. I do this because if you just size sometimes the necks aren't completely round after the bushing so that small mandrel guarantees they're round. Step 4 is size, I use my Giraud to trim all my cases to 1.910". Step 5 is final expansion/powder drop/powder check/bullet drop/bullet seat. I use a 750 for loading my rounds and so I can run all of these steps at the same time. I use my auto trickler and an area 419 powder funnel to drop it through the Dillon die. Then I use a DAA powder check just to make sure something didn't get stuck in the funnel. I 3d printed a bullet feeder so I use that and a DAA bullet die to drop all my bullets onto the cases. Then I seat to .020" off the lands with the Redding comp seater die. This has gotten me ~20 ES and ~6 SD with the Hornady brass and I have a feeling it'll only get better with that Alpha once I get that all run up.
There's about a million different ways to skin the same cat from a prep and loading standpoint, but this is what I do. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but F-Class John in YT has a bunch of videos of his process of loading on a 750 and I have been using a lot of his techniques and have had really good success with it.
I dissasembled the bolt and cleaned it a couple weeks ago.Well - that rules out most of the possible causes!
I would still disassemble the bolt and clean it. A light primer strike that hits the primer just hard enough (slower than normal) to set it off will cause a drop in speed, but the hot gas from burning powder inside the case will enter the primer cup via the flash hole, and will still cause a normal looking indentation on the primer. So a lighter than optimal primer strike will have a normal looking primer, until it is too weak and it cannot set off the primer, then the unfired round will show a light primer strike. A bad firing pin strike is the equivalent of a primer with maybe half the explosive materials. Primer weight (different amount of explosive material) has a noticeable effect on MV. Same for lazy firing pins.
Could also need a spring replacement.
I dissasembled the bolt and cleaned it a couple weeks ago.
It doesn’t build up very quickly. I’ve scoped the chamber and it looks good.Fair enough!
How quickly does the barrel pick up copper fouling? How long since it got a deep clean?
Also: The neck section of the chamber can develop a bad carbon deposit, that can pinch the neck of the cases that are a few thou longer than the rest, spiking pressures and speed. Perhaps have a look with a bore scope. Pretty cheap device these days (e.g. the Teslong device is pretty good value for money).
It doesn’t build up very quickly. I’ve scoped the chamber and it looks good.
I’ve already resized all of the brass that I have fired. I’ll have to check the fired brass after the next range trip.Post firing, does a bullet fall freely into the fired (unsized) case, or does some of them need a little bit of force to push them in?
I have had this problem with Alpha brass before in an MPA comp rifle with a match chamber. Thicker than normal brass (some were 15.2 thou, most were 14.5 thou). And a tight neck chamber. A small amount of carbon buildup in the neck area of the chamber during a range session, which is unavoidable, can then cause a slight pinch on the bullet, effectively changing neck tension (bullet grip) as the range session progresses. Even small variations in neck thickness can then contribute to increased ES. [Of course a substantial carbon ring inside the chamber is a different thing, and can be dangerous. Easily avoided by cleaning the carbon out from the chamber after every range session - even if you choose to leave the barrel fouled for several hundred rounds before cleaning.]
Mostly an issue with match chambers, and very thick brass, but probably worth a check. I neck turned the brass down to 12.1 thou, and the problem went away, and SD came down to 7-8 fps (for 50 rounds). [Five shot groups would occasionally have an SD of 1 to 3 fps, but that is just luck factor. Useful for internet bragging, but not real world.]
And it shoots .02 MOA or 20 MOA?Here's a 6.5CM load I just developed...
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4065 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4065 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower
I'm assuming you mean IMR 4064?Here's a 6.5CM load I just developed...
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4065 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4065 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower then the above results in the previous week.