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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
I've got a bunch of mixed Hornady brass...the majority being American Gunner (pre-pandemic pricing of ~$.75 for ammo that shoots 1/2 MOA is hard to pass...I certainly can't hand load and compete with that price). I'm using a beam scale, strictly low tech, and Fed 210 (so far). My SD is running about 16 or so, and my ES is 50-60 depending on the day and what goes in front of the Lab Radar. It's a frustrating amount of vertical down range...it sure would be nice to think that swapping the brass would make a difference.
The ESs of the American Gunner I've seen over the several times I've chrono'd it was between 52 and 60 fps on 10-shot strings. Handloading (using the AG brass) has cut those in half. Still not good enough. I've had several 3-shot groups shoot ES into the low to mid single digits, but there always seems to be one or two that screw things up. And I'm not talking 15 fps difference. I'm talking 30-40fps or more.
Yeah, my thoughts are that MV is normally distributed about the mean. I watched a guy run his reloads through a seating depth test (which should cause some deviation, mind you) and across his Lab Radar. He had a single digit ES over 30 shots. That's significant. I would hesitant to ascribe value to any sample smaller than 10 shots, to be honest. I've fired ammo loaded, ostensibly, to the same specs and have 5 shots groups that looked G2G one day and 5 shot groups that were awful on a following day. Just sampling different parts of the same distribution - sometimes you get a few from the middle, some times you get one or two from the extremes.
I shot a 1000 yd match with my hand loads a bit over a week ago. A ES of 50 fps is a 13 inch difference in drop from slowest to fastest (130 TMK @ 2850 fps). Shooting at a 10 inch 10 ring with ammo incapable of shooting tighter than 13 inches is...not ideal. I will say that the rifle was a rock star at least.
I shot a 1000 yd match with my hand loads a bit over a week ago. A ES of 50 fps is a 13 inch difference in drop from slowest to fastest (130 TMK @ 2850 fps). Shooting at a 10 inch 10 ring with ammo incapable of shooting tighter than 13 inches is...not ideal. I will say that the rifle was a rock star at least.
I've reloaded large batch of Hornady brass that came from American Gunner and ELD Match factory ammo 4 times. Primarily using Federal 210s, 140 ELDMS and H4350. I have been able to get the SDs to average around 6-9 range over 4 firings. In my experience, the key has been to anneal/trim every firing and uniform neck tension with mandrel. I have also been tossing the cases that appear to be outliers as I go. That said, you could likely achieve better results with less effort and less powder using Lapua brass.
Got out today to test 142gr SMK, 41.5gr H4350, Alpha Munitions Brass (new).
Tikka T3X TAC A1 24in
Forgot I was not using my AR10 on the first shot. Heh.
5 Shots, warm rifle, not hot:
The cold rifle lab radar results:
Guess I’m done with load development.
Tikka T3X TAC A1 24in
Forgot I was not using my AR10 on the first shot. Heh.
5 Shots, warm rifle, not hot:
| Stats - Average | 2754.71 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2767.92 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2745.48 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 22.44 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 8.27 | fps |
The cold rifle lab radar results:
| Stats - Average | 2760.36 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2767.84 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2755.35 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 12.48 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 5.16 | fps |
Guess I’m done with load development.
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Before dumping the 75 cent brass, maybe trim them all to the same length and then weight sort? You should see some improvements from this…
Another idea F class and BR shooters like to use: Put a nice deep scratch on the case head every time you fire a round that is say 25 fps too fast or too slow, once you see 3 scratches cull them out! It is a good way to deal with “outliers”.
Superb group!! Well done dude. SD and ES numbers are all superb!
Well, if that group or something vaguely similar repeats itself for 2 successive range session, say a week apart, you are most certainly done! Would be good to know that you don’t drop out of the node because of ambient temperature changes. Unlikely as H4350 is very temp stable (but not exactly perfect, and your primer will be temp sensitive, sadly that is unavoidable). If you are on the edge of the node (flat spot in speed graph), you might need to trim up or down by 0.1 or 0.15 gn. Btw what scale are you using?
Good shooting!
I think the next outting will be to test 20 shots and grab the Lab Radar data on that.
Biggest issue is the thinish barrel on the Tikka... and how fast it gets warm.
Biggest issue is the thinish barrel on the Tikka... and how fast it gets warm.
Chamber coolers help a little….
I have a temperature strip that changes color on the barrel, about 6” ahead of the chamber, the spot where it seems to get the hottest. Just stop for a while when it hits 140 degree F.
Or wet a cloth with alchohol and wipe down the barrel. Store the wet cloth in a zip lock bag to stop the evaporation. Remember to wipe oil on the outside of the barrel when you get home, that rubbing alchohol still contains a few percent of water. Rust will form very quickly…. I sometimes use that on a stainless barrel.
Some folks apparently pour alchohol down their hot barrel (from a squirting bottle) and then patch it out a few times - but i am not convinced that is safe. If liquid remains in a barrel, it can cause a major disaster, so NOT recommending it!
I guess the benefit from using alchohol is that it rapidly evaporates.
I have a temperature strip that changes color on the barrel, about 6” ahead of the chamber, the spot where it seems to get the hottest. Just stop for a while when it hits 140 degree F.
Or wet a cloth with alchohol and wipe down the barrel. Store the wet cloth in a zip lock bag to stop the evaporation. Remember to wipe oil on the outside of the barrel when you get home, that rubbing alchohol still contains a few percent of water. Rust will form very quickly…. I sometimes use that on a stainless barrel.
Some folks apparently pour alchohol down their hot barrel (from a squirting bottle) and then patch it out a few times - but i am not convinced that is safe. If liquid remains in a barrel, it can cause a major disaster, so NOT recommending it!
I guess the benefit from using alchohol is that it rapidly evaporates.
To add on, I recently ordered a Chamber Chiller and I think it is well worth the $40.
The .308 bolt option works on my AR15 without issue as well.
The .308 bolt option works on my AR15 without issue as well.
These are only 3 shot groups to get a feel of where I need to concentrate. Alpha brass is definitely thicker than the Hornady AG I was using. Getting pressure signs much earlier and unable to hit that 2950-ish node. The rifle seems to like to be around 2825+/-. I’m going to explore 41.6-42.0gr H4350 some more. The 41.4 of RL16 seems to be an outlier. The group is fantastic (I don’t really count 3-round groups tbh), but the SD, ES, and POI leave a lot to be desired. Maybe I’ll load a few up around there and try again. Not too bad, though. I think I could fine tune her to a 1/4 MOA factory rifle.
You’re never going to believe this: an old RCBS charge master, with the area 419 insert, charge cup, and base plate.
Quick question for the ones who know...Following Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, how many different groups of .003 seating depth difference would you expect to have to shoot in order to find a node? In other words, I'm working up a load and have selected my charge weight. I'm starting at 2.260" CBTO and working down to 2.233" CBTO (10 different seating depths). Do you think that would be sufficient to find a node or should I load up another 10? Oh, and ALL of my initial development (velocities) were done with Federal 210 LRPs, but I just got in 15,000 
CCI 200s. So I've loaded 10 groups with each primer, looking to see which performs better with my load/rifle. Thanks, boys!
CCI 200s. So I've loaded 10 groups with each primer, looking to see which performs better with my load/rifle. Thanks, boys!
I just wanna know where you found 15k LRP...
Mark at SA Customs and Cal at the Precision Rifle Blog might be able to inform this for you. Their research indicates that chasing the lands is daft/futile as well. You can take a look at their seating depth tests and likely narrow things down to a .027 inch range where you want to experiment.
I know Eric states in the video that nodes might only be .006 wide. If you’re looking to play a broad range with minimal effort, you could do .005 jumps and then do some refinement work up if anything shows promise.
The whole process is fraught somewhat unless you have a rifle that can shoot one hole groups...becomes very difficult to spot vertical deviation or real impacts to accuracy with only three shots per group otherwise. Still, I think I managed with a 30 round work up.
Mark at SA Customs and Cal at the Precision Rifle Blog might be able to inform this for you. Their research indicates that chasing the lands is daft/futile as well
. You can take a look at their seating depth tests and likely narrow things down to a .027 inch range where you want to experiment.I know Eric states in the video that nodes might only be .006 wide. If you’re looking to play a broad range with minimal effort, you could do .005 jumps and then do some refinement work up if anything shows promise.
The whole process is fraught somewhat unless you have a rifle that can shoot one hole groups...becomes very difficult to spot vertical deviation or real impacts to accuracy with only three shots per group otherwise. Still, I think I managed with a 30 round work up.
What type of shooting are you doing?Quick question for the ones who know...Following Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, how many different groups of .003 seating depth difference would you expect to have to shoot in order to find a node? In other words, I'm working up a load and have selected my charge weight. I'm starting at 2.260" CBTO and working down to 2.233" CBTO (10 different seating depths). Do you think that would be sufficient to find a node or should I load up another 10? Oh, and ALL of my initial development (velocities) were done with Federal 210 LRPs, but I just got in 15,000
Here’s my opinion of it based upon trying to reason it all out:
So there are times when you don’t chase the lands because you’re using a weapon that won’t allow that. Specifically you’re using a weapon that won’t allow you to load anything but magazine length.
I have found that if I load ammunition to magazine length, all I really need to make sure is that I have a load perfect with respect to charge weight.
Moving the bullet in and out allows you to fine-tune the node you’re working with.
And is not necessary most of the time...
However, you do need to find the right brass and the right bullet and have a really consistent primer.
You will have a difference between Remington, Winchester, prime, Peterson, Alpha, Lapua, norma, etc.
Moving the bullet in an out of the case for a specific load effectively changes the amount of pressure you have… However there are times when a jump the lens can be very excessive and moving to pull it out is warranted for accuracy.
And most of this is determined by testing...
So there are times when you don’t chase the lands because you’re using a weapon that won’t allow that. Specifically you’re using a weapon that won’t allow you to load anything but magazine length.
I have found that if I load ammunition to magazine length, all I really need to make sure is that I have a load perfect with respect to charge weight.
Moving the bullet in and out allows you to fine-tune the node you’re working with.
And is not necessary most of the time...
However, you do need to find the right brass and the right bullet and have a really consistent primer.
You will have a difference between Remington, Winchester, prime, Peterson, Alpha, Lapua, norma, etc.
Moving the bullet in an out of the case for a specific load effectively changes the amount of pressure you have… However there are times when a jump the lens can be very excessive and moving to pull it out is warranted for accuracy.
And most of this is determined by testing...
Thanks for the replies, fellas. I’m not shooting BR or anything, but I’d like to get the most accuracy out of the rifle as reasonably possible. As I’ve said before, the rifle shot in the .400” range with American Gunner ammo (which I was pretty damn happy with) but the groups fell apart at long range due to the terrible ES. I’m really only looking to shoot PRS with it, but I’d be stoked to have a .250” factory rifle. I guess my main goal is to just find a solid load that holds together past 700 or 800 yards. Max distance I can shoot around here is about 1300, but a good-shooting 1000 yard rifle is sufficient.
of course it's my opinion , hand loads are better but definataly not without there own chalanges somones else's results may not be the same gun to gun it could be used as a starting point or a spot in the wide range of choices you could pick what my gun likes yours may not like it at all . But isn't that 1/2 the fun of it learning ? good luck and you can do it either way shot my first 5 thousand rounds with factory ammo having a blast stumbling around in the reloading pool my luck probably doing most of it incorrectly at over 6k but still enjoying it all .
Honestly I've loaded the vast majority of my rifles to .020" off the lands and called that good. I'm sure I could squeeze more out of my rifles if I really tried and played with seating depth, but my last build I was getting ~.3" (best) and .75" (worst) groups when I was doing my powder charge testing. I settled on one that gets around .4", but works well in the summer, and it holds half MOA to 800. I think I fall off further than 800 rather than the rifle. Based on your other response about the American gunner, maybe work up a load that gets you similar velocities with the same bullet from that ammo? Like you said the ES probably isn't great, but with handloaded ammo it should tighten that up.Quick question for the ones who know...Following Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is stupid" video, how many different groups of .003 seating depth difference would you expect to have to shoot in order to find a node? In other words, I'm working up a load and have selected my charge weight. I'm starting at 2.260" CBTO and working down to 2.233" CBTO (10 different seating depths). Do you think that would be sufficient to find a node or should I load up another 10? Oh, and ALL of my initial development (velocities) were done with Federal 210 LRPs, but I just got in 15,000
My average velocity decreased by 15fps on my once-fired Alpha brass. It seems that most people see an INCREASE of velocity. Also, ES and SD are FAR from where I want them. Using only a 3-shot group per seating depth, per primer brand (shot 3 shots at 2.260, 2.257, 2.254 etc with Fed 210, and another 3-shot group, same depth with CCI 200) some groups were in the single digits ES-wise and some were 40+. I realize that 3-shot groups aren't statistically relevant, but from my understanding seating depth produces very, very little effect on ES/SD Overall ES on 10 different seating depths (30 shots each primer) using Fed 210s was 49fps and 61fps using CCI 200s. I did manage to get some nice groups at 100, with some good ES and SD numbers. All groups at .250" or better were at or less than 15fps ES (again, only 3-shot groups). Not a happy camper at the moment. I'm using a FX120 scale to measure each and every powder charge, Redding Comp S seating die, Redding Comp S FL resizing die (bumping .002") with a .288 bushing. No mandrel yet, but one on the way as the only thing I can think is holding me back is proper (consistent) neck tension? Everything else is quality instruments and measured every single time. Any ideas? This is damn near the same ES/SD numbers I'm getting from crappy AG rounds.
If your powder is consistent I would assume it’s neck tension. Seating depth would not cause that large of a spread on its own, in my opinion.
I would definitely invest in a mandrel and then buy yourself pin gages. 0.2610 to 0.2640 and verify if you have consistent neck tension. I know I’m meticulous on brass prep...each piece gets the same treatment (typically Lapua) but out of 100 cases I’ll get 10% that “fallout” on either side of my target by more than 0.0005 (and I anneal every firing). Something to watch for is how large is your fired neck and how much are you trying to size it down...you may find for the most consistent sizing you need to use two sizes of bushings and size in increments. Pin gages were the missing “tool” for me. (I use Vermont Gage ZZ minus pins)
I would definitely invest in a mandrel and then buy yourself pin gages. 0.2610 to 0.2640 and verify if you have consistent neck tension. I know I’m meticulous on brass prep...each piece gets the same treatment (typically Lapua) but out of 100 cases I’ll get 10% that “fallout” on either side of my target by more than 0.0005 (and I anneal every firing). Something to watch for is how large is your fired neck and how much are you trying to size it down...you may find for the most consistent sizing you need to use two sizes of bushings and size in increments. Pin gages were the missing “tool” for me. (I use Vermont Gage ZZ minus pins)
Agree, that ES is way too large for Alpha brass. Something else is going on here….
The commonality seems to be the gun and not the ammo: The America Gunner ammo could be expected to give a larger than ideal ES, maybe around 40-48 fps, but the Alpha brass loaded on a good lab scale should be 20-30 fps, maybe 35 fps at most.
Could be firing pin fall: Maybe there is oil, grease or gunk left inside the bolt body occasionally retarding the firing pin movement, leading to some normal and some light primer strikes? Some triggers can also get defective and cause this problem. Some bolts do a lot better after they have been bushed (Gretan is a good choice, but there are other options too), as the bushing guides the firing pin in a better way.
I would check these mechanical issues first. If you have a buddy that loads good ammo with an ES of say 25 fps or better for a large sample of 50+ cases (so an SD below 10 fps), try his ammo in your rifle. He may need to correct his shoulder bump for head space differences. Pay more attention to SD than ES. ES is an unreliable statistical metric, one bad outlier due to a dud primer or a powder charging mistake can skew it really badly. You will likely not be in a “node” (flat spot on the speed graph), but SD should go up (at most) to 12 or 13 fps. If ES is 5x the SD (or more) in your rifle, then almost certainly it is the rifle, not the ammo. It means you are getting statistical outliers due to a “process” (mechanical) change, and you don’t have a true Normal/Gaussian distribution anymore. [Or try to get Berger factory ammo (unobtanium right now, except for Gunbroker, and then you have to tolerate their extortionist prices). I always get an SD between 8 and 12 fps with this ammo. ES should be 3-4x the SD number. ]
Now for the possible but rather unlikely causes:
Check your scale for drift: Measure a pan, zero it, pull the pan out, and watch that negative nr over a 3 day period. It should not move by more than 0.04 gn. It is VERY unlikely for the FX120 to do this, but very easy to check.
Brass could perhaps also contribute to the problem: Check the weight range of the Alpha brass, should be 3 gn or less difference. VERY unlikely to be the problem. [Yes volume sorting is better, but it is slow and messy.]
Could be neck tension, and using a set of pin gauges is a great way to check them. I use a K&M arbor press with a force measurement tip to accurately measure seating force. In my experience, springback differences due to different flame annealing times or perhaps different metallurgy (brass composition, so a factory mistake) could lead to a 50% change in seating force. [You can pick this up with cheap pin gauges, and you don’t need to spend $200 on the K&M press and an LE Wilson seater die.]
AMP machine is very consistent if the necks are fairly similar thickness. [I neck turn all my brass, but the benefit is tiny if you start with premium brass.] You can easily feel a 50% change in seating force with a standard reloading press. It is possible to get it down to 10-15% if you cull the cases that have exceptionally thick or thin necks (rarely seen in premium brass), cases that consistently have way different springback (have seen that in all brass). Mark those suspect cases by putting a deep scratch on the case head. If it happens twice in a row, cull it out.
Btw: Using graphite lube like Imperial Dry Lube could help to lower the seating force (which may help or hurt, as it changes the bullet exit time during the barrel whip cycle). I have found that it makes seating force a little more consistent. But it does seem to help minimize “bullet weld” problems if you store the ammo for a long time (weeks to months).
AMP machine leaves a red copper oxide inside the case neck that can lead to high and variable seating force, thoroughly brush that out or tumble for another hour after annealing. There is a video on the AMP web site about this.
Check your primer weight range for 20 primers. If ES is more than 12 milligram, you got a bad batch of primers, and you may need to weight sort them (and that is a royal pain in the behind). Unlikely in your case as you tried two different brands already.
Best of luck!
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Btw i have only seen this problem twice in 10 years: One time the inside of the bolt body got dirty, first symptom was that the ES went way up (doubled), then after a while i started to see misfires (light primer strike), and eventually the gun would go click but the round would not fire, and there was not even a light mark on the primer. I put the same round back in the chamber and it fired, and had the normal speed. Went home, cleaned it out with a gun cleaning solvent, and the problem went away.
The other time it happened, i dumped powder into a brand new stainless steel bowl to set up the autotrickler, and the remainder went back into the 8 lbs jug. Did not realize that there was a sticky oily residue in the bowl from the manufacturing process. It seems the powder got contaminated and ES went to hell. That 8 lbs jug soon became fertilizer for the garden. Turned the grass into a nice bright green. Expensive mistake!
The other time it happened, i dumped powder into a brand new stainless steel bowl to set up the autotrickler, and the remainder went back into the 8 lbs jug. Did not realize that there was a sticky oily residue in the bowl from the manufacturing process. It seems the powder got contaminated and ES went to hell. That 8 lbs jug soon became fertilizer for the garden. Turned the grass into a nice bright green. Expensive mistake!
Lots of good information here posted by others, I'll throw in my two cents too.
All my brass gets the same prep, currently Hornady but just got some Alpha and can't wait to get that stuff going! Step 1 is decap, I use a Lee APP for this because I don't like to get my 750 dirty. Step 2 is tumble, I recently switched to porcelain media from wet stainless pins and am really happy with the results. Step 3 is anneal, I use an AMP and have been really happy with the consistency. I used to use an annealeeze and wasn't getting great consistency so I switched. Step 3 is size/initial expansion, I use my Redding type s FL sizer that takes the neck down to .260" and then I use a .261" mandrel. I do this because if you just size sometimes the necks aren't completely round after the bushing so that small mandrel guarantees they're round. Step 4 is size, I use my Giraud to trim all my cases to 1.910". Step 5 is final expansion/powder drop/powder check/bullet drop/bullet seat. I use a 750 for loading my rounds and so I can run all of these steps at the same time. I use my auto trickler and an area 419 powder funnel to drop it through the Dillon die. Then I use a DAA powder check just to make sure something didn't get stuck in the funnel. I 3d printed a bullet feeder so I use that and a DAA bullet die to drop all my bullets onto the cases. Then I seat to .020" off the lands with the Redding comp seater die. This has gotten me ~20 ES and ~6 SD with the Hornady brass and I have a feeling it'll only get better with that Alpha once I get that all run up.
There's about a million different ways to skin the same cat from a prep and loading standpoint, but this is what I do. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but F-Class John in YT has a bunch of videos of his process of loading on a 750 and I have been using a lot of his techniques and have had really good success with it.
All my brass gets the same prep, currently Hornady but just got some Alpha and can't wait to get that stuff going! Step 1 is decap, I use a Lee APP for this because I don't like to get my 750 dirty. Step 2 is tumble, I recently switched to porcelain media from wet stainless pins and am really happy with the results. Step 3 is anneal, I use an AMP and have been really happy with the consistency. I used to use an annealeeze and wasn't getting great consistency so I switched. Step 3 is size/initial expansion, I use my Redding type s FL sizer that takes the neck down to .260" and then I use a .261" mandrel. I do this because if you just size sometimes the necks aren't completely round after the bushing so that small mandrel guarantees they're round. Step 4 is size, I use my Giraud to trim all my cases to 1.910". Step 5 is final expansion/powder drop/powder check/bullet drop/bullet seat. I use a 750 for loading my rounds and so I can run all of these steps at the same time. I use my auto trickler and an area 419 powder funnel to drop it through the Dillon die. Then I use a DAA powder check just to make sure something didn't get stuck in the funnel. I 3d printed a bullet feeder so I use that and a DAA bullet die to drop all my bullets onto the cases. Then I seat to .020" off the lands with the Redding comp seater die. This has gotten me ~20 ES and ~6 SD with the Hornady brass and I have a feeling it'll only get better with that Alpha once I get that all run up.
There's about a million different ways to skin the same cat from a prep and loading standpoint, but this is what I do. Not sure if you've seen it or not, but F-Class John in YT has a bunch of videos of his process of loading on a 750 and I have been using a lot of his techniques and have had really good success with it.
TONS of great info here. I'm going to have to get your phone number because you always seem to respond to my posts with very helpful tips and suggestions
. Lots of info to unpack here, so here goes:-I haven't seen ANY light primer strikes. All of them look perfectly uniform. I haven't had any misfires or hang fires. Also, as you said, I'm seeing the problem with both brands. Unlikely to be the primers.
-I've checked the scale for drift. Left it on for a week at a time and it doesn't drift. It read -74.96gr for at least a week. I don't think the scale is the problem.
-I measured 30 random cases (10 out of each lot of 100) and they were all within .78 grains. I didn't bother weight sorting them with measurements that close.
-I use an Anealeez (always read "Anal-Eez" lol). It seems to do a perfectly serviceable job. I have it set on about 45%. In a dark room, the brass JUST barely starts to glow when it's taken out of the flame. Haven't used Tempilaq and sacrificed a case, though.
-I have a K&M arbor press and an LE Wilson seater, but just got the VLD plunger for it yesterday so I have been seating on the Redding micrometer (all within .0005 of my target depth CBTO). No noticeable difference of feel, but that's on a Lee Classic Turret. I'd love to upgrade to a "better" press, but I've seen perfectly good ammo made with this press by lots of people, including some .243 done myself.
-I have an expander body and mandrel on the way, along with some Imperial Dry Lube and pin gauges. I was sizing with the bushing only (expander ball and decapping pin removed) which apparently pushes any imperfections to the inside of the case, at least from what I've read.
I think that about sums it up for now. I'll keep updating as I improve the process and HOPEFULLY get where I need to be. I'm sure this thread will help out others in the future that are in the same boat as me. Thanks!
Have also seen high ES from “bullet weld” (a technically incorrect phrase that is in common use). It is more of a galvanic corrosion problem: Loaded good ammo that shot well (SD of 8), shot half of the loaded rounds, then stored the leftover ammo for 2 months, shot it again at similar summer temps, SD went from 8 to 15 fps and ES went into the mid 40’s. Trying to reseat them 20 thou deeper, most smoothly moved deeper, others were stuck, a lot of force was needed, and then there was a loud thunk when the “weld” was broken.
Cause was that the inside necks were cleaned to bare metal. The ultrasonic clearer does too good a job, all the carbon was removed, and you are left with exposed metal that can easily corrode. Then stored the loaded ammo in a humid Gulf Coast climate (indoors) for several weeks.
Solution was to switch from ultrasonic cleaner to corncob tumbler, use a mechanical timer to limit tumbling time (about 3 hours) so that there is enough carbon left in the neck.
Also added a blend of Nu-shine car wax and mineral spirits to the media. Outside of the cases come out very clean and shiny (mineral spirits act like a carbon solvent, so case cleaning goes faster), but the inside necks were still very black from leftover carbon. The dried polymer wax layer is microscopic, but cases stay shiny for longer, and the tumbled cases are more similar to new cases (which are also waxed).
Unlikely to be your problem, but just in case.
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TONS of great info here. I'm going to have to get your phone number because you always seem to respond to my posts with very helpful tips and suggestions
-I haven't seen ANY light primer strikes. All of them look perfectly uniform. I haven't had any misfires or hang fires. Also, as you said, I'm seeing the problem with both brands. Unlikely to be the primers.
-I've checked the scale for drift. Left it on for a week at a time and it doesn't drift. It read -74.96gr for at least a week. I don't think the scale is the problem.
-I measured 30 random cases (10 out of each lot of 100) and they were all within .78 grains. I didn't bother weight sorting them with measurements that close.
-I use an Anealeez (always read "Anal-Eez" lol). It seems to do a perfectly serviceable job. I have it set on about 45%. In a dark room, the brass JUST barely starts to glow when it's taken out of the flame. Haven't used Tempilaq and sacrificed a case, though.
-I have a K&M arbor press and an LE Wilson seater, but just got the VLD plunger for it yesterday so I have been seating on the Redding micrometer (all within .0005 of my target depth CBTO). No noticeable difference of feel, but that's on a Lee Classic Turret. I'd love to upgrade to a "better" press, but I've seen perfectly good ammo made with this press by lots of people, including some .243 done myself.
-I have an expander body and mandrel on the way, along with some Imperial Dry Lube and pin gauges. I was sizing with the bushing only (expander ball and decapping pin removed) which apparently pushes any imperfections to the inside of the case, at least from what I've read.
I think that about sums it up for now. I'll keep updating as I improve the process and HOPEFULLY get where I need to be. I'm sure this thread will help out others in the future that are in the same boat as me. Thanks!
Well - that rules out most of the possible causes!
I would still disassemble the bolt and clean it. A light primer strike that hits the primer just hard enough (slower than normal) to set it off will cause a drop in speed, but the hot gas from burning powder inside the case will enter the primer cup via the flash hole, and will still cause a normal looking indentation on the primer. So a lighter than optimal primer strike will have a normal looking primer, until it is too weak and it cannot set off the primer, then the unfired round will show a light primer strike. A bad firing pin strike is the equivalent of a primer with maybe half the explosive materials. Primer weight (different amount of explosive material) has a noticeable effect on MV. Same for lazy firing pins.
Could also need a spring replacement.
David Tubb sells some special High-Silicon Steel R700 springs that don’t loose their primer denting power so quickly.
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My process looks like this right now, but will soon change by adding the mandrel into the equation:
-decap
-tumble (walnut)
-inspect cases
-anneal
-lube
-fl size with Redding Comp bushing die
-trim, if needed
-chamfer/debur
-tumble again
-prime
-charge
-seat
I dissasembled the bolt and cleaned it a couple weeks ago.Well - that rules out most of the possible causes!
I would still disassemble the bolt and clean it. A light primer strike that hits the primer just hard enough (slower than normal) to set it off will cause a drop in speed, but the hot gas from burning powder inside the case will enter the primer cup via the flash hole, and will still cause a normal looking indentation on the primer. So a lighter than optimal primer strike will have a normal looking primer, until it is too weak and it cannot set off the primer, then the unfired round will show a light primer strike. A bad firing pin strike is the equivalent of a primer with maybe half the explosive materials. Primer weight (different amount of explosive material) has a noticeable effect on MV. Same for lazy firing pins.
Could also need a spring replacement.
Fair enough!
How quickly does the barrel pick up copper fouling? How long since it got a deep clean?
Also: The neck section of the chamber can develop a bad carbon deposit, that can pinch the neck of the cases that are a few thou longer than the rest, spiking pressures and speed. Perhaps have a look with a bore scope. Pretty cheap device these days (e.g. the Teslong device is pretty good value for money).
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It doesn’t build up very quickly. I’ve scoped the chamber and it looks good.Fair enough!
How quickly does the barrel pick up copper fouling? How long since it got a deep clean?
Also: The neck section of the chamber can develop a bad carbon deposit, that can pinch the neck of the cases that are a few thou longer than the rest, spiking pressures and speed. Perhaps have a look with a bore scope. Pretty cheap device these days (e.g. the Teslong device is pretty good value for money).
Post firing, does a bullet fall freely into the fired (unsized) case, or does some of them need a little bit of force to push them in?
I have had this problem with Alpha brass before in an MPA comp rifle with a match chamber. Thicker than normal brass (some were 15.2 thou, most were 14.5 thou). And a tight neck chamber. A small amount of carbon buildup in the neck area of the chamber during a range session, which is unavoidable, can then cause a slight pinch on the bullet, effectively changing neck tension (bullet grip) as the range session progresses. Even small variations in neck thickness can then contribute to increased ES. [Of course a substantial carbon ring inside the chamber is a different thing, and can be dangerous. Easily avoided by cleaning the carbon out from the chamber after every range session - even if you choose to leave the barrel fouled for several hundred rounds before cleaning.]
Mostly an issue with match chambers, and very thick brass, but probably worth a check. I neck turned the brass down to 14.0 thou and then later on to 12 thou, and the problem went away, and SD came down to 7-8 fps (for 50 rounds). [Five shot groups would occasionally have an SD of 1 to 3 fps, but that is just luck factor. Useful for internet bragging, but not real world.]
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I’ve already resized all of the brass that I have fired. I’ll have to check the fired brass after the next range trip.
Here's a 6.5CM load I just developed...
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4350 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate to high
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4350 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower then the above results in the previous week.
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4350 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate to high
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4350 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower then the above results in the previous week.
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You attribute that entirely to the temp swing?
Over 30 shots, I’m sure you could see a 29ES at a constant temp without batting an eye.
Over 30 shots, I’m sure you could see a 29ES at a constant temp without batting an eye.
I noticed the temperature difference in speed from one week to the next (much warmer the second week). The ES number could be a bit lower, yes. The barrel is new and so was the brass. I suspect that the ES will come down a bit. As far as the sample size goes, I think it is more then adequate to show what`s happening.
And it shoots .02 MOA or 20 MOA?Here's a 6.5CM load I just developed...
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4065 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4065 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower
Lots of information, which is useless without the end result of how it prints at 100 yards and at distance.
And you have a barrel speeding up?
And temp and ES is a concern?
So far, tests were just done at 203 yards. In the OCW test, I printed a .48moa group. And I didn`t say anything about ES and temperature.
And I have noticed with all of my new barrels, that they tend to speed up after a few hundred rounds. YMMV.
And I have noticed with all of my new barrels, that they tend to speed up after a few hundred rounds. YMMV.
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The temperature sensitivity for the IMR4350 I noticed was from a cooler week (last week), to this week (much warmer). Those chrony numbers were from yesterday.
I'm assuming you mean IMR 4064?Here's a 6.5CM load I just developed...
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
Rifle brand: Cadex
Rifle Model: CDX30
Barrel length and twist: 28" 1:8" Krieger (1.25 inch straight)
Projectile brand, model and weight: Berger 140gr Hybrid Target
Powder brand and weight: IMR4065 44.0gr
LOAD CONSIDERED HOT OR CLOSE TO MAX: moderate
Primers: CCI BR-2
Coal: Not Applicable (too long to mag feed)
Ogive length (CBTO): 2.239"
Brass: Lapua
Brass trim length: 1.915"
Ogive distance to lands: .010" jump
Velocity (average): 2910fps ES=29 SD=8.7
Outside temperature: 72°F
Wind and direction: N/A
Barometric pressure and other relevant data: elevation 792m ASL, 100.0 KPA, 38% RH, Temperature 72°F
The IMR4065 is temperature sensitive. With a 20 degree drop in temperature, the speed was 25fps slower then the above results in the previous week.
My first work up load for this rifle, I used IMR 4064. I have an 8# jug, so in these times you run what you got. Everything I read ( mostly here) says you can't push a 140gr bullet that fast with 4064. I'm at 37.1gr, 2625fps with a Nosler Custom Competition. Everything I saw says that is about max with the bullet/powder combo. It is balls out accurate, one hole at 100yds, and on a not great trigger morning I managed a sub 1" group at 300yds, 4 shots.
Research said this powder lends itself better to 130gr bullets. It is a very nice shooting load, but in my total of two matches I can tell it suffers a bit at plus 700yds if it's pretty windy.
I was going to trade my other shooting bro 4# of my 4064 for 4#'of Staball 6.5 he came across. He is getting into the game also and has a .308, I thought perfect trade?
So......................could I push the Nosler bullets faster with this powder or are the Berger bullets allowing you to achieve these velocities? My next work up will be with 140gr ELD bullets and H4350/Staball 6.5. I should be able to start at 2700fps and hopefully find happiness at 2750/2775ish. The ELD bullets have a way better range as far as coal. The nosler bullets I have to push back to 2.785 to get them to chamber. At 2.790 you are tickling the lands. They are a bullet that is full diameter quite a bit farther up compared to an ELD, which starts angling toward the tip much closer to the case mouth. I take them all to work and measure them in an optical comparator.
My bad...
I guess being my age, I shouldn’t try to remember a load when I’m at work. I load for 8 different calibers....and my brain sometimes hurts.
The chamber is throated long (sorry, I can’t remember the value). So with the CBTO where it is, there’s plenty of room for powder. That and the length of the barrel gives some extra velocity. Btw, the load is not compressed either.
I will be taking it out to the mile range this coming weekend to see how it performs. Ideally, I’d like to hit the mile. But at 140gr, I’m also a realist. We’ll see how it goes. My x47 shoots very well to 1300m with 139gr Scenars. And consistently to 1500m. (And when I mean “consistently”, I don’t mean rainbow prayer shots.)
I think this will do better then the x47 with a 26” barrel and roughly the same speed.
I guess being my age, I shouldn’t try to remember a load when I’m at work. I load for 8 different calibers....and my brain sometimes hurts.
The chamber is throated long (sorry, I can’t remember the value). So with the CBTO where it is, there’s plenty of room for powder. That and the length of the barrel gives some extra velocity. Btw, the load is not compressed either.
I will be taking it out to the mile range this coming weekend to see how it performs. Ideally, I’d like to hit the mile. But at 140gr, I’m also a realist. We’ll see how it goes. My x47 shoots very well to 1300m with 139gr Scenars. And consistently to 1500m. (And when I mean “consistently”, I don’t mean rainbow prayer shots.)
I think this will do better then the x47 with a 26” barrel and roughly the same speed.
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No, it’s the IMR4350 in the picture above. The bullets are Berger 140gr Hybrid Target (sku 26714).
The fire formed case after firing showed nothing out of the ordinary. F.L. sized with a Whidden bushing die (.288”) which gives .002” neck tension with the Lapua case and this bullet. I’m only bumping the shoulder .001”. No pressure signs. No ejector marks on the bolt face. The web looks normal. The primers are still seated deep after firing. No flattening.
I saw the data on Hodgson. I’m not sure what to say, but it seems to work. The smith who chambered it used the same reamer that he used for a fellow by the name of Alan Alton. I guess he’s a competitive shooter up here in the north. He told me that he shoots the 140’s at 3000+ in a 28” like mine. I’m not that brave. I stopped where you see it above.
The fire formed case after firing showed nothing out of the ordinary. F.L. sized with a Whidden bushing die (.288”) which gives .002” neck tension with the Lapua case and this bullet. I’m only bumping the shoulder .001”. No pressure signs. No ejector marks on the bolt face. The web looks normal. The primers are still seated deep after firing. No flattening.
I saw the data on Hodgson. I’m not sure what to say, but it seems to work. The smith who chambered it used the same reamer that he used for a fellow by the name of Alan Alton. I guess he’s a competitive shooter up here in the north. He told me that he shoots the 140’s at 3000+ in a 28” like mine. I’m not that brave. I stopped where you see it above.
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You are on the edge. I have run 142 SMKs and 144 Bergers around 2900 with H4350, RL16 and now N560. H4831 is another good powder. My current load is 44 of N560 with Fed 210m running 2815 with sub 20 ES in 27" barrel. I can't find RL16, I think N160 would be better. I also tried N555 but could not get the speed I am used to seeing. The 2900 load is hard on barrels and brass so don't expect long life lol. Last barrel went around 1400 running 144s at 2885. I chose the 2815 load as it is very stable and did not show pressure signs even shooting in pouring rain. I have not touched barrel tuner yet and it is shooting sub half, last group was .34"
Maybe edit your original post (include the text “Edit:”) and correct the powder type. Before some new shooter spends a week looking for a magic powder that does not exist.
Btw 44.0 gn of H4350 would be fairly hot in most rifles, with a 140 gn projectile... [Edit: Well, a custom reamer was used to cut your chamber, so that helps to explain why you can get this high.]
My 3 rifles in 6.5 CM all showed bright ejector marks at 42.5 gn or below when new. Hard bolt lift at 43. As the lands moved forward (after 1,500 rounds), they could handle a little bit more powder. It seems you are running a 28” barrel, so you may be gaining an extra 70-100 fps over a 24” barrel. You may be lucky and have a nice fast barrel, and/or a roomy chamber, or a longer freebore, which all together can perhaps add another 50 or 60 fps. Your batch of powder may also be slightly different from nominal spec. Added together, your speed is possible, but few rifles will be able to handle 44.0 gn.
In my experience, H4350 is not ideal for exploiting long barrels. I have a 30” barrel on a Savage 12 that does 3,000 fps with 140s but only with double base powders like RL-17. Could not get H4350 beyond 2850 fps in that barrel, chamber was too tight and hard bolt lift arrived at 43 or just below that. In future i will not go beyond 28” for the medium calibers. [A 416 caliber ELR rifle will of course benefit from a 34” barrel.]
Hornady (in their 11’th edition) lists 42.0 gn of H4350 as max at 2750 fps for a custom R700 with a 24” barrel. Hodgedon web site lists 40.0 gn as max, which is quite conservative, and they list the load as “compressed”, which implies a very short freebore, and the bullet sitting deep in the case robbing case volume. Must have been a rifle with a min spec chamber throated for 120s? Strange indeed!
Maybe check the base of 10 cases for expansion (0.1-0.2 thou growth per firing is typical - once you go over pressure), but use a good micrometer, and good consistent technique. This is right on the limit of what a micrometer can measure.
Also, Lapua brass is ‘reluctant’ to show clear pressure signs. If i recall correctly: Lapua claims a 30% safety margin. Of course, the idea is not to use up all of that!
For the new reloader: Start low and work up in 0.3 gn increments. The folks that run the superb Pressure Trace strain gauge system all report the same observation: By the time you hit visual pressure signs, the actual chamber pressure is already significantly over 62,000 psi - so back off 0.5 gn and assume that is your max nr. If load development happened in winter, you will need to recheck in summer. No powder plus primer combo is totally immune to temperature changes, whatever the marketers choose to call their product. Btw: All primers are temp sensitive. Keep in mind that pretty much all rifles are different, even if they have the same model number. Reamers wear out, and are not replaced until they are out of spec, and the SAAMI spec is wider than you think. Some rifles are WAY different (clearly out of spec). Powder and primer batches can vary too. That’s why the load books are so different.
Btw 44.0 gn of H4350 would be fairly hot in most rifles, with a 140 gn projectile... [Edit: Well, a custom reamer was used to cut your chamber, so that helps to explain why you can get this high.]
My 3 rifles in 6.5 CM all showed bright ejector marks at 42.5 gn or below when new. Hard bolt lift at 43. As the lands moved forward (after 1,500 rounds), they could handle a little bit more powder. It seems you are running a 28” barrel, so you may be gaining an extra 70-100 fps over a 24” barrel. You may be lucky and have a nice fast barrel, and/or a roomy chamber, or a longer freebore, which all together can perhaps add another 50 or 60 fps. Your batch of powder may also be slightly different from nominal spec. Added together, your speed is possible, but few rifles will be able to handle 44.0 gn.
In my experience, H4350 is not ideal for exploiting long barrels. I have a 30” barrel on a Savage 12 that does 3,000 fps with 140s but only with double base powders like RL-17. Could not get H4350 beyond 2850 fps in that barrel, chamber was too tight and hard bolt lift arrived at 43 or just below that. In future i will not go beyond 28” for the medium calibers. [A 416 caliber ELR rifle will of course benefit from a 34” barrel.]
Hornady (in their 11’th edition) lists 42.0 gn of H4350 as max at 2750 fps for a custom R700 with a 24” barrel. Hodgedon web site lists 40.0 gn as max, which is quite conservative, and they list the load as “compressed”, which implies a very short freebore, and the bullet sitting deep in the case robbing case volume. Must have been a rifle with a min spec chamber throated for 120s? Strange indeed!
Maybe check the base of 10 cases for expansion (0.1-0.2 thou growth per firing is typical - once you go over pressure), but use a good micrometer, and good consistent technique. This is right on the limit of what a micrometer can measure.
Also, Lapua brass is ‘reluctant’ to show clear pressure signs. If i recall correctly: Lapua claims a 30% safety margin. Of course, the idea is not to use up all of that!
For the new reloader: Start low and work up in 0.3 gn increments. The folks that run the superb Pressure Trace strain gauge system all report the same observation: By the time you hit visual pressure signs, the actual chamber pressure is already significantly over 62,000 psi - so back off 0.5 gn and assume that is your max nr. If load development happened in winter, you will need to recheck in summer. No powder plus primer combo is totally immune to temperature changes, whatever the marketers choose to call their product. Btw: All primers are temp sensitive. Keep in mind that pretty much all rifles are different, even if they have the same model number. Reamers wear out, and are not replaced until they are out of spec, and the SAAMI spec is wider than you think. Some rifles are WAY different (clearly out of spec). Powder and primer batches can vary too. That’s why the load books are so different.
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