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Late to party but how would the Lab Radar correct for the velocity based on the decreasing acceleration? It would have to know the air density and temp etc to be accurate…. And even then in theory the decelerations x_o could be anywhere….. no? It’s also been a hot sec since college Newtonian physics….No the difference would be random and vary from device to device. LabRadar corrects the actual measured speed once it picks up the bullet for what it should be at the muzzle, based on the rate at which speed is dropping with distance, all done via clever curve fitting.
Both devices are adequately accurate for reloading purposes. Each have their own pros and cons, but both work. But a big price difference.
You will have to spend $100K plus on a 3000 yard radar setup like the ones used by Applied Ballistics and Hornady to know the exact offset of your device - so not doable. Best we can do is compare with another device your buddy brought to the range. Also, speed and BC “truing” (a standard feature in most ballistic calculators) can be used to deal with minor crony errors.
Does Norma make all the Prime 6.5 CM brass? I purchased some Prime 6.5 brass about a year ago. I thought it might be made by Peterson.Prime/Norma new brass, 147gr ELDM, FGMM LRP, 41.7gr H4350, 2.802 COAL
Bartlein SS Heavy Palma 1:7.5 6.5CM finished by PVA, TRG22
Thunder beast ultra9 was used during this session. (Though I have found it makes no difference. Nor does using a Biscuit or KGM R30K in place of the Ultra9…)
(shot 10 rounds through half inch hole at 100 yards)
This is primarily a test to see if using an analytical balance would yield better results than a charge master; The charge master would say 41.7 grains but would be anywhere 41.5 to 41.85gr.
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Even though people are probably annoyed that I bought cases of norma prime brass… The stuff is awesome
Late to party but how would the Lab Radar correct for the velocity based on the decreasing acceleration? It would have to know the air density and temp etc to be accurate…. And even then in theory the decelerations x_o could be anywhere….. no? It’s also been a hot sec since college Newtonian physics….
This is the original Prime brass from when RWS was contracted to make the ammo. However, they dicked Prime over in a move to take over the brand, and then they sold off all of the components….Does Norma make all the Prime 6.5 CM brass? I purchased some Prime 6.5 brass about a year ago. I thought it might be made by Peterson.
Hornady factory match ammo is close to the max load. When they can get it they use H4350. I've measured dozens of their factory rounds and they average 2.814 COAL with 140 ELD-M's. So, length translates to the jump to the lands. Change that around for accuracy. Of course, if you can do a ladder test of powder weights you can find a flat spot to assist with velocity consistency.Unfortunatly, I'm unable to let off any rounds at my house. My club is a 30 min drive, no worries. I always have at least on pistol on me to shoot . Bergara gives a recommended load for their most accurate cartridge. I can't recall everything off hand besides eld-m 140gr. I got some from a buddy at work. Have some h4350 in route. Getting some cci mag srp this week. I'll look into the magneto speed chrono. Thanks for the scoop. Much appreciated
Good to know. ThanksHornady factory match ammo is close to the max load. When they can get it they use H4350. I've measured dozens of their factory rounds and they average 2.814 COAL with 140 ELD-M's. So, length translates to the jump to the lands. Change that around for accuracy. Of course, if you can do a ladder test of powder weights you can find a flat spot to assist with velocity consistency.
See, I've had the opposite experience. All I've shot in 6.5 CM was their match 140 & 147 ELD-M, and everytime the SD's were single digits. But, my gun, being a gas gun, hates them. I shoot my reloads at a 2.800 COAL much better. Of course, my SD's are in the high teens, lol.The only thing with some of the hornady factory ammo I have is that some of it has very large SDs.
i’ve been very surprised by how bad the ES and SD has been, in fact.
Hornady factory match ammo is close to the max load. When they can get it they use H4350. I've measured dozens of their factory rounds and they average 2.814 COAL with 140 ELD-M's. So, length translates to the jump to the lands. Change that around for accuracy. Of course, if you can do a ladder test of powder weights you can find a flat spot to assist with velocity consistency.
We'll, I'm certain of my measurements, but because I shoot a gas gun my chamber is likely very different from a bolt gun, and probably most other semi autos. I wouldn't be surprised if another gun preferred longer, especially a bolt gun. In fact, I was surprised my gun preferred 2.800 over longer.I'm going to have to go back and measure my cartridges. I could have sworn the factory stuff I had was 2.800". I've been using a factory round and the 'max COAL' dummy cartridge I built to calibrate my comparator caliper as I seat new bullets.
Up until your post, I thought I had found the sweet spot using 40.5 grains of H4350 and a 140 ELD-Match seated for a COAL of 2.821".
Every 140 bullet will be a bit different in terms of it's jump to the lands. VLD bullets with a secant ogive jump a bit further. Some bullets want more or less jump, etc. Plus every throat is just slightly different. So generally what people do, and what I tried to do was figure out what COAL my gun shot most accurately and what powder charge seemed most consistent. It's an ongoing process. Then things will change as your throat erodes. I can't be as precise as some, but it became very obvious that my gun likes a fairly short COAL of 2.800 for 140 ELD-M's. By obvious I mean I went from 1.5 moa at 2.850 to less than.5 MOA at 2.800. And, I don't really shoot that we'll.I know that LMT MWS chambers are designed with 140 grain bullets in mind…. When I called them that’s what they actually told me.
I think we're talking about 2 different things. What I'm saying is every gun and bullet combination will like something s little different. That doesn't mean they won't shoot, just some combination of charge, bullet and length will shoot best.They specifically mentioned Hornady , Sierra, and Burger.
Some folks like a point to aim at that is not the point of bullet impact. That keeps the aim point sharp and easier to see.What is the purpose of this type of target?
I've seen this type of target at my 100/200 yard range, but have no idea what its purpose is.
I get the whole power charge, COL stuff, but what is the square box for and how is it used when aiming?
I've made my own scale targets in PowerPoint and print them on 60# card stock.
(see my profile pic for an example with 1/4" grid lines and a 1" blue circle)
I'm hoping someone can explain why I need to add a big bold square above my bullseye.
I think it’s a great idea!I'm in the process of building my 6.5 Creedmoor and I have a few boxes of their 120gr AMAX factory loads, but once those are gone it to the table. I've seen a few loads on here, but they are spread out all over the place. Figured we need a spot for all of them to go. Bullets I'm interested in using are: 130/140 Berger VLD, 120/140 AMAX, 123/139 Scenars, 142 SMK, and 142 Matrix. Haven't decided powder yet, but mostly will go wth H4831sc or H4350.
If I'm understanding correctly, the shooter dials their scope up 1 MOA (assuming those are 1/2" grid lines and you're shooting from 100 yards). That way the rounds hit the bullseye while they are aiming 1" higher -- at the center of the dark border square.Some folks like a point to aim at that is not the point of bullet impact. That keeps the aim point sharp and easier to see.
Actually, it's the reverse. You dial up, but continue to aim at the center of the orange bullseye. The bullet strikes should be in the dark-bordered square.If I'm understanding correctly, the shooter dials their scope up 1 MOA (assuming those are 1/2" grid lines and you're shooting from 100 yards). That way the rounds hit the bullseye while they are aiming 1" higher -- at the center of the dark border square.
You can also just change your point of impact and shoot at the bullseye of any target. That is what most people do. The problem is that by doing so you are robbing a target maker of a marketing gimmick.If I'm understanding correctly, the shooter dials their scope up 1 MOA (assuming those are 1/2" grid lines and you're shooting from 100 yards). That way the rounds hit the bullseye while they are aiming 1" higher -- at the center of the dark border square.
I usually shoot 5-shot groups, so I can relate to having issues aiming at the center of a bullseye after drilling it out with multiple rounds. Unfortunately I don't experience that problem nearly as often as I'd like.
I think I'm going to make up some similar targets for this weekend.
I think it’s a great idea!
I have been chasing down components and it has been a pain in the but!! I’m going to try some of the Superformance on some rounds, haven’t yet found H4350, and paid out the nose for primers. I will be working up to shoot a local monthly 1k yard match.
Thanks for the advice I found some CCI LRP’s was like buying diamonds lol but will get me going…you read my mind on the Lapua…will see how the Burger Factory does in the Tikka Bolt….Yep, LRP primers have been hard to find.
One viable work-around is to switch to SRP brass like Lapua, Peterson, both top-notch quality, or Starline (an econo brand), and then prime with CCI450’s, which is their small rifle magnum primer. They seem to be in stock most of the time.
Just fair warning that some bolts/firing pin holes have too much gap, and are not SRP friendly and you may see pierced primers. Then you need to get your bolt bushed. I had no issues using SRP brass so far, and never needed to get a bolt bushed, but maybe i was just lucky. Lapua SRP brass lasts 20-25 reloads, making them cheaper per shot.
Maybe try to get one or two boxes of Berger factory match ammo, which uses Lapua SRP brass.
One way to beat the hoarders: Shoot what they don’t shoot.
It will depend on your barrel and what it likes ultimately…. That said I’ve always had decent results w 42.5gr of H4350 and 135 atips. Decently fast and grouped pretty well.Hey guys looking for some help with some 135 hornady a tips. I have a great load for 140 eldm and 4530 I tried they same load and it really wasn’t what I wanted. Hopefully one of you guys has a great load with 135s and 4350
I bought 80 rounds of those and used them to sight in my rifle at 200 and they are pretty good and the star line brass is a bonus! So now fire formed brass and I found sone H4350, and some Superformance. Next to work up some loads, find what the gun likes this is all new to me as well.Trip to the range today to hash out some loads
My rifle REALLY likes 39.3-ish of IMR 4350. Like 1 hole at 100yds kind of likes.
Freedom munitions 140gr factory loads aren't quite as good, but still shoot well too
Accurate 4350 isn't quite as good as IMR 4350, or maybe I haven't found the right load for my Midsouth/Nosler 140gr bthp-s
I'm not quite smart enough to post pics so you'll have to imagine
M
So anyone have luck with superformance and a 140 class bullet? Picked up 3 pounds of it and wanted to compare starting loads.
Thanks for the detailed write up. I’m gonna start in the middle of the range and work up. It’s a gasser load, so I’m not too worried about speed. If I can get ~2650 out of a 22” barrel I’ll be happy.Have tried it before, and it worked fine for hunting loads. You often get 150 fps or so more speed than single base extruded powders. It is a flake powder, meters very well, but it is not an “Extreme” powder like H4350, so you should expect it to be somewhat temperature sensitive. Develop a winter and a summer load. I got 0.5” groups at 100 with 142 gn Sierra MK. [Also gave me good speed and group size in several 30 calibers (308 and 30-06), using the 180 Barnes TTSX bullets.]
I would not recommend Superformance for competition loads, as a super hot barrel will push up the speed and change the POI.
Keep your barrel temp moderate during load development, shoot slow, and don’t let the barrel get so hot where you cannot hold it anymore.
Hornady lists 38.2 gn as their starting load and 44.7 as their max load. That is quite a wide range, and most folks would start middle of range and work up in 0.5 or 1.0 increments.
If you know you have a tight (match) chamber and are using thick brass, e.g. Alpha or Norma, then of course start closer to the minimum load. Avoid jammed bullets.
The max load may not be safe in your rifle, so watch out for pressure signs. Hornady manual predicts 2800 fps from a 24” barrel at max charge, but i would prefer to stay 1.0 grain below max, to ensure adequate safety margin in hot weather.
Best of luck - and stay safe.
Have tried it before, and it worked fine for hunting loads. You often get 150 fps or so more speed than single base extruded powders. It is a flake powder, meters very well, but it is not an “Extreme” powder like H4350, so you should expect it to be somewhat temperature sensitive. Develop a winter and a summer load. I got 0.5” groups at 100 with 142 gn Sierra MK.
Btw: Superformance also gave me good speed and group size in several 30 calibers (308 and 30-06), using the 180 Barnes TTSX bullets.
I would not recommend Superformance for competition loads, as a super hot barrel will push up the speed and change the POI.
Keep your barrel temp moderate during load development, shoot slow, and don’t let the barrel get so hot where you cannot hold it anymore.
Hornady lists 38.2 gn as their starting load and 44.7 as their max load. That is quite a wide range, and most folks would start middle of range and work up in 0.5 or 1.0 increments.
If you know you have a tight (match) chamber and are using thick brass, e.g. Alpha or Norma, then of course start closer to the minimum load. Avoid jammed bullets.
The max load may not be safe in your rifle, so watch out for pressure signs. Hornady manual predicts 2800 fps from a 24” barrel at max charge, but i would prefer to stay 1.0 to 1.5 grain below max, to ensure adequate safety margin in hot weather.
Best of luck - and stay safe.
I've just started working with better brass in my reloading education, so take it for what it's worth. But I would try increasing powder charge a little in the Hornady brass. Lapua and Peterson are thicker, have less case capacity and therefore are shooting faster with the same load. I'll be interested to see if others think the same. The premium brass is also going to be more consistent, so you have to overcome that too.I have been having amazing luck with freshly loaded Lapua, and Peterson brass. Here are some .1 and .05 groups shot, so literally the same hole. I have a bunch of those groups, granted they are all three shot groups. The Tikka Tac A1 is still getting zeroed so the precision is still off, but it's a very accurate gun right now with this load. My question is when I take the same load but use Hornady brass that has been shot, resized, annealed.. so prepped, I am getting groups around 1/2 inch, thus the Hornady brass does not seem to perform like fresh Lapua or Peterson. What is the consensus for Hornady 6.5 brass? It's either that, or my brass prepping is off. Not sure what the deal is. I do have a buddy who know's a lot about this stuff, he suspects the Hornady brass.
Thoughts?
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Lapua and Peterson more consistent. match grade.I have been having amazing luck with freshly loaded Lapua, and Peterson brass. Here are some .1 and .05 groups shot, so literally the same hole. I have a bunch of those groups, granted they are all three shot groups. The Tikka Tac A1 is still getting zeroed so the precision is still off, but it's a very accurate gun right now with this load. My question is when I take the same load but use Hornady brass that has been shot, resized, annealed.. so prepped, I am getting groups around 1/2 inch, thus the Hornady brass does not seem to perform like fresh Lapua or Peterson. What is the consensus for Hornady 6.5 brass? It's either that, or my brass prepping is off. Not sure what the deal is. I do have a buddy who know's a lot about this stuff, he suspects the Hornady brass.
Thoughts?
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What is your COAL?I have been having amazing luck with freshly loaded Lapua, and Peterson brass. Here are some .1 and .05 groups shot, so literally the same hole. I have a bunch of those groups, granted they are all three shot groups. The Tikka Tac A1 is still getting zeroed so the precision is still off, but it's a very accurate gun right now with this load. My question is when I take the same load but use Hornady brass that has been shot, resized, annealed.. so prepped, I am getting groups around 1/2 inch, thus the Hornady brass does not seem to perform like fresh Lapua or Peterson. What is the consensus for Hornady 6.5 brass? It's either that, or my brass prepping is off. Not sure what the deal is. I do have a buddy who know's a lot about this stuff, he suspects the Hornady brass.
Thoughts?
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I don't usually pay attention to Coal, as meplats are usually inconsistent.What is your COAL?