**6 Creedmoor**
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Idk, I haven't tried sac dies. Get a good micrometer and measure the web area of fired VS sized cases. Calipers are half ass for this a mic is much better tool if you have one. My RCBS sizes lapua brass from 4707-471 to 4692-4695. I haven't had a clicker on anything creedmoor since switching from redding to the RCBS matchmaster.
I’m .4695 on sized lapua, and .4680 with sized alpha. I don’t think the base of the alpha is growing at all despite being up there in pressure. Regardless I need this barrel to work for one more match and it’s over.
Alpha is small and will stay small with a tight die, part the problem. It doesn't expand down low preventing chamber grip. If you're getting clickers with lapua brass that's 4695 sized, you have an undersized chamber or you're load very high pressure. Un-sized that's giving clickers should be .471X
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That's pretty mild for clickers. I've been running 109 eldm at lapua brass at 41.5gr H4350 2940fps and 45.6 rl26 3060fps from a 22" barrel, brass has 3-4 reloads, and never any clickers using the RCBS matchmaster die. I have a feeling the chamber may be a lil small. What's fired brass that give click measure at base?
I’m at .470 on the lapua once fired and I just did a test with alpha and I’m at .4680 still with zero clickers and no pressure signs.
So I got a test batch of h4831sc at 42.5 grains in the alpha to give a go.
Thinking maybe I have some hot h4350. Exacerbated by some carbon and a tight chamber.
If the chamber is in spec, saami base is 0.4714, fired of 0.470 shouldn't be any issue. Trim length is good? Chamber is clean? No carbon in throat or at the chamber area of case mouth? Kinda scratching my head on this one.
See above goofed up post quotes
H4831sc at 2940 in the alpha brass had no pressure signs and was also shooting 1/2 moa at 400 yards, so I’m just going to burn it up with that.
H4831sc burns dirty!
Save the lapua for the barrel it was shot through, for prairie dogs.
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Fudds will tell you this won't work... the powder's too fast, the bullet's too heavy, not enough case fill... blah, blah, blah, blah...
These pics aren't particularly amazing or anything, but I hope they show that the fudds are mistaken.
36gn Shooters World Precision Rifle
112gn Match Burner
Lapua ex-22-250 case
CCI 200
2.180" BTO
2815fps AVG @ 90degF, SD 4.9 ES 17.5 over 10 shots
26" Proof SS prefit
No signs of pressure at all, soft-shooting like a mild Dasher.
I didn't take a pic of my 100yrd group, but they were all touching.
3 at 1000yds off a PRS skills stage barricade (kneeling, standing, kneeling, builds/breaks in between, didn't run a timer but >60secs):
3 at 1250yrds off bag/tank-trap to see if the G7 I was using (.301 G7) was ok (it might be low or just parallax), for >$0.25 a pull these shitty MBs sure are as terrible as some say
, I hope no one buys them so they stay cheap. 
Edited to add: almost forgot... this barrel has 3000rds on it, these were somewhere between rounds 3001-3050.
Not bad for a barrel-burner that you can't load down and run slow.
These pics aren't particularly amazing or anything, but I hope they show that the fudds are mistaken.
36gn Shooters World Precision Rifle
112gn Match Burner
Lapua ex-22-250 case
CCI 200
2.180" BTO
2815fps AVG @ 90degF, SD 4.9 ES 17.5 over 10 shots
26" Proof SS prefit
No signs of pressure at all, soft-shooting like a mild Dasher.
I didn't take a pic of my 100yrd group, but they were all touching.
3 at 1000yds off a PRS skills stage barricade (kneeling, standing, kneeling, builds/breaks in between, didn't run a timer but >60secs):
3 at 1250yrds off bag/tank-trap to see if the G7 I was using (.301 G7) was ok (it might be low or just parallax), for >$0.25 a pull these shitty MBs sure are as terrible as some say
, I hope no one buys them so they stay cheap. Edited to add: almost forgot... this barrel has 3000rds on it, these were somewhere between rounds 3001-3050.
Not bad for a barrel-burner that you can't load down and run slow.
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Just jumped into this thread for the first time and I think this post just answered some questions... Maybe already answered elsewhere, so apologies for the redundancy.Fudds will tell you this won't work... the powder's too fast, the bullet's too heavy, not enough case fill... blah, blah, blah, blah...
These pics aren't particularly amazing or anything, but I hope they show that the fudds are mistaken.
36gn Shooters World Precision Rifle
112gn Match Burner
Lapua ex-22-250 case
CCI 200
2.180" BTO
2815fps AVG @ 90degF, SD 4.9 ES 17.5 over 10 shots
26" Proof SS prefit
View attachment 8487451
No signs of pressure at all, soft-shooting like a mild Dasher.
I didn't take a pic of my 100yrd group, but they were all touching.
3 at 1000yds off a PRS skills stage barricade (kneeling, standing, kneeling, builds/breaks in between, didn't run a timer but >60secs):
View attachment 8487449
3 at 1250yrds off bag/tank-trap to see if the G7 I was using (.301 G7) was ok (it might be low or just parallax), for >$0.25 a pull these shitty MBs sure are as terrible as some say
View attachment 8487450
Edited to add: almost forgot... this barrel has 3000rds on it, these were somewhere between rounds 3001-3050.
Not bad for a barrel-burner that you can't load down and run slow.
I have an opportunity to get a smoking deal on a Bergara Premier Competition in 6CM. I want a GT, but my budget is 2400 and not sure what I can build for that. Given the fact I can get an MPA and TT in this for a great price, the overarching concern was the action/barrel (both I'm not familiar with in Bergara and prefer Tikka/60 degree throw).
I was curious if A. I could download to these speeds- 2800 wheelhouse, and be GTG. B. Could always rebarrel, that is if it's a no brainer on a good deal and assuming Bergara premier actions/comp barrel is any good. I've read mixed things about Bergara in general.
Crazy you have 3k rounds through that barrel contradicting everything I've read up on 6CM. I'm assuming this is a function of downloading during most if not all of this barrel life?
Thanks, CK1.0 and whoever else wants to chime in.
I think the main ingredient has been that I never ran the barrel faster than ~2900fps, and the other part is that for probably the first ~1500rds or so I wasn't cleaning the barrel properly...
That barrel is/was the second barrel I'd ever had/run, and I was still listening to all the fudd "experts" as far as what to do (or more so what NOT to do) when cleaning, which meant for the first ~1500rds the barrel saw nothing harsher than nylon brushes, cotton patches, and Boretech Eliminator. All the legacy/fudd BS I had read/heard had scared me into believing that any use of abrasives or bronze brushes would ruin the barrel... I've since found that was/is complete and total BS and completely wrong.
So, by mistake and maybe sheer luck(?), I had loaded up the barrel with carbon to where it stopped shooting at ~1500rds, but at the same time was "protected" by a layer of hard carbon fouling due to me being a naive dumbass. I got it out, and voila, it started shooting again.
Once I got a borescope (now an essential part of my cleaning regime) and began to stop listening to any "fudd lore" that defied logic, I discovered that it absolutely requires using abrasives and bronze brushes (in fact new/fresh ones work best) to properly clean a barrel, carbon is hard, therefore you have to scrape it out, there's no magical potion that dissolves it all away (just don't be an idiot and scrape away the rifling too by going bananas without checking your work is all lol).
IDK much of anything about Bergara stuff, so I can't help you there.
But as far as 6CM (or any other 6)... a 6mm is a 6mm, if you run it at Dasher speeds it'll last as long as a Dasher, period. It really is that simple. I also run 6GT (I go back and forth between the two by switching barrels) and if I knew then what I know now I would have just stuck with 6CM. The GT's steeper 35-degree shoulder angle may have something to do with making low SDs easier to attain, but it could also be its less capacity or just be a figment of my imagination, mostly I think the "magic" is using faster powders like Varget, SWPR, N140/N150, etc and not worrying about case fill and/or burn rate so much (like guys do when they're chasing speed). I don't think it's a coincidence that 6BR, BRA, BRX, Dasher, GT and all the other "easy to load for" cartridges use Varget in their "go to" recipes.
I load all my rounds to the nearest kernel and have been doing so for ~3 years now and can tell you that much of the "reloading lore" is BS, there are no "nodes", no magical seating depth you have to discover, blah, blah, blah... there's just the struggle between what's a Rorschach test, versus validation via a statistically valid sample size.
More/less fuel = more/less velocity, always. Try to make every single round you make come out the same as the next and you'll get low SDs and an acceptable ES... and if you get low SDs and a good ES... it will shoot, period.
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Hey man, appreciate the thorough response. A lot of what you're saying makes sense, but I have no hands on experience outside .30 cal.
As far as finding a node, a ladder seemingly made a difference for me trying to dial one in, although as you imply, the smallish sample size might not be enough to realistically justify what's reality. Whatever it is, 100% agree on consistency being key squeezing down SD/ES. I've been reloading a little while now, but am not seasoned. All I know that's tangible is that I'm getting better results than factory so I'm happy to go in the right direction.
Yeah the Dasher was on the list, but I didn't want to have to mess with/invest into one other thing to make it feed. Some dude on Texas Plinking for the 1k yd challenge showed up with a 4/5k Gucci'd rifle chambered in one. I think he said he liked to shoot PRS if I remember correctly. At any rate, shooting prone, he had to manipulate the mag to get it to feed at least 75% of the time. Nope to that. If I'm dropping that kind of coin, it better run. That would not be a great way to enjoy PRS. No offense to that guy.
Cheers
40.8 RL 16
110 A-Tip
2.785" COAL
Planning on shooting 10rd strings tomorrow of 40.8 H-4350 with 106 ELD-M (that's what they look like) and 106 A-Tips mentioned earlier in the this thread.
This was out of a Gen II RPR 6mm Creedmoor (obviously)
110 A-Tip
2.785" COAL
Planning on shooting 10rd strings tomorrow of 40.8 H-4350 with 106 ELD-M (that's what they look like) and 106 A-Tips mentioned earlier in the this thread.
This was out of a Gen II RPR 6mm Creedmoor (obviously)
Hey there. New to the 6 Creedmoor world - it's been a *very* long time since I've had a 6mm anything. 6BR, .243 Win, and a 6x47L, way back when, but I don't think any of the Creedmoors were even out when I sold that one off. That 6x47L was a fun gun, though. Kinda hoping for more of the same with the 6CM 
So... I ended up with a used Criterion barrel from a friend, who'd bought it used from someone else (and never got around to using it). Supposedly 275-300rds on it, don't know any more 'history' than that. Checking with the bore scope shows a little bit of heat checking at the end of the chamber, but otherwise the lands look good.
The barrel is marked as '6 Creedmoor Match', so I got in touch with Criterion and requested chamber prints so I could figure out the difference between their regular '6 Creedmoor' and the 'Match' version. Looks like the regular has 0.120 freebore, and 0.275 nk, and the match has 0.183 freebore and 0.277 nk. The freebore makes sense, the neck... not so much. Maybe I'm missing something?
Still waiting on other parts to show up, so I'm not in a huge hurry on this one. I've got a few hundred 'old' style bullets - S107MKs, Hornady 105 A-max, and Berger 105 VLDs. Figured I'd throw these down range while I get a feel for the new-to-me cartridge. Plenty of powder in the general burn rate, including N150, N160, H4350, etc.
I'm sure I'll find out for sure when I finally have all the components in the same place at the same time and can screw everything together, but I'm a little curious as to whether those bullets are going to be jumping a ton with that freebore from an AICS mag? What about something more in the varmint-y range, like an 87 V-Max?
So... I ended up with a used Criterion barrel from a friend, who'd bought it used from someone else (and never got around to using it). Supposedly 275-300rds on it, don't know any more 'history' than that. Checking with the bore scope shows a little bit of heat checking at the end of the chamber, but otherwise the lands look good.
The barrel is marked as '6 Creedmoor Match', so I got in touch with Criterion and requested chamber prints so I could figure out the difference between their regular '6 Creedmoor' and the 'Match' version. Looks like the regular has 0.120 freebore, and 0.275 nk, and the match has 0.183 freebore and 0.277 nk. The freebore makes sense, the neck... not so much. Maybe I'm missing something?
Still waiting on other parts to show up, so I'm not in a huge hurry on this one. I've got a few hundred 'old' style bullets - S107MKs, Hornady 105 A-max, and Berger 105 VLDs. Figured I'd throw these down range while I get a feel for the new-to-me cartridge. Plenty of powder in the general burn rate, including N150, N160, H4350, etc.
I'm sure I'll find out for sure when I finally have all the components in the same place at the same time and can screw everything together, but I'm a little curious as to whether those bullets are going to be jumping a ton with that freebore from an AICS mag? What about something more in the varmint-y range, like an 87 V-Max?
this is why I prefer saami reamers...
I think a 277 nk and 210 freebore is what I'm currently using and it's amazing. I don't get too caught up in all of the specifics. I make note, make sure there is clearance where there needs to be, and do a quick load dev to see what works.
try N555 under a berger 109 around the 3k fps mark for starters.
also, don't buy used barrels unless it's basically free.
I think a 277 nk and 210 freebore is what I'm currently using and it's amazing. I don't get too caught up in all of the specifics. I make note, make sure there is clearance where there needs to be, and do a quick load dev to see what works.
try N555 under a berger 109 around the 3k fps mark for starters.
also, don't buy used barrels unless it's basically free.
The 277nk 183fb is a saami spec reamer, nothing match about that. My Lapua brass is 273 loaded, alpha is 272, works well in saami spec chambers. The long freebore is great for the newer heavy for cal match bullets.
I hear ya. I'm guessing Criterion is just basing the naming off what their prints from PTG say
I'm so used to .308 Win brass coming out .342 from a .343 chamber, and loaded rounds being .335-.336... it's going to take me a bit to mentally adjust to not having so much room around the case necks
That was kind of where I was going... I'd seen some references to it being great for the 109/110/112/115 gn bullets; wasn't sure how well it would work with the 'older' 103-105-107gn bullets. Or if there was any appreciable difference at all.
As long as they feed smoothly from the mag, go reasonably fast, and group pretty well, I'll be happy
Well, ptg reamers aren't great, hopefully the chamber is close to what the print says! For any the 6mm that get shot high round count between cleanings, say a weekend match, I greatly prefer a 244 or 2445 freebore diameter. More room for carbon fouling in the throat before it starts creating velocity issues. 6Creed makes carbon rings quickly depending on powder choice. I had one that was a lil tight in the throat and after 70 rounds of rl16, it would pick up 30-50 fps and groups would open up. However rl16 plus a suppressor, is recipe for carbon fouling.
I've had great luck with 105s and 107s jumping 50-90k, so it'll shoot just fine I'm sure.
From PVA:
“The PVA 6mm CM is a 0.210” FB slightly longer than SAAMI, we also have a 0.150” FB if you want to shoot light varmint bullets.”
“The PVA 6mm CM is a 0.210” FB slightly longer than SAAMI, we also have a 0.150” FB if you want to shoot light varmint bullets.”
Hey, question for you guys: are any of you using the SAC “The Seating Die?”
I’m screwing around with N555, as I really like the anti-filing additives, and I have a slightly compressed load… which I find is causing a little bit of deformation at the seating die’s contact point.
I’m using the M1 insert, and the die came with 4 seating inserts (M1,M2,M3,M4)… I think I can use M2… but I’m trying to figure out whether anybody has already figured this out.
I’m screwing around with N555, as I really like the anti-filing additives, and I have a slightly compressed load… which I find is causing a little bit of deformation at the seating die’s contact point.
I’m using the M1 insert, and the die came with 4 seating inserts (M1,M2,M3,M4)… I think I can use M2… but I’m trying to figure out whether anybody has already figured this out.
Not specific to that powder or die... but have you tried vibrating the charged case to settle the powder? You might be surprised how much difference it can make.
Hey there. New to the 6 Creedmoor world - it's been a *very* long time since I've had a 6mm anything. 6BR, .243 Win, and a 6x47L, way back when, but I don't think any of the Creedmoors were even out when I sold that one off. That 6x47L was a fun gun, though. Kinda hoping for more of the same with the 6CM
So... I ended up with a used Criterion barrel from a friend, who'd bought it used from someone else (and never got around to using it). Supposedly 275-300rds on it, don't know any more 'history' than that. Checking with the bore scope shows a little bit of heat checking at the end of the chamber, but otherwise the lands look good.
The barrel is marked as '6 Creedmoor Match', so I got in touch with Criterion and requested chamber prints so I could figure out the difference between their regular '6 Creedmoor' and the 'Match' version. Looks like the regular has 0.120 freebore, and 0.275 nk, and the match has 0.183 freebore and 0.277 nk. The freebore makes sense, the neck... not so much. Maybe I'm missing something?
Still waiting on other parts to show up, so I'm not in a huge hurry on this one. I've got a few hundred 'old' style bullets - S107MKs, Hornady 105 A-max, and Berger 105 VLDs. Figured I'd throw these down range while I get a feel for the new-to-me cartridge. Plenty of powder in the general burn rate, including N150, N160, H4350, etc.
I'm sure I'll find out for sure when I finally have all the components in the same place at the same time and can screw everything together, but I'm a little curious as to whether those bullets are going to be jumping a ton with that freebore from an AICS mag? What about something more in the varmint-y range, like an 87 V-Max?
You probably didn’t use and sell that 6x47 before the 6.5 Creedmoor came out as it was only 2 years after the 6.5x47 came out.
I use N160 now with my 110 ATip loads in the 6 Creed and it works great but H4350 is always an easy choice with the Creedmoors.
The jump will probably be anywhere from .030” and up with those bullets and the SAAMI .183 freebore. Luckily those bullets don’t mind a jump. Well at least the AMAX and SMK don’t.
I have not tried that… But it is clear to me that the shortcut of the N555 allows the powder to get in there in a pretty dense manner.
To get the 2.800 cartridge length, it’s pretty clear that the seating guy is pushing really hard and that’s causing the issue as opposed to necessarily the actual stem itself.
I realized that I had a Hornady die lying around with the 110 A-Tip specific seating stem, and I compared it to the four that came with the SAC die… and then I used the M2 SAC stem… it was a much better seating job until the last few thousands. That made it clear that the powder wasn’t compressing.
So where do I get a vibrator for that?
To get the 2.800 cartridge length, it’s pretty clear that the seating guy is pushing really hard and that’s causing the issue as opposed to necessarily the actual stem itself.
I realized that I had a Hornady die lying around with the 110 A-Tip specific seating stem, and I compared it to the four that came with the SAC die… and then I used the M2 SAC stem… it was a much better seating job until the last few thousands. That made it clear that the powder wasn’t compressing.
So where do I get a vibrator for that?
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Go down to wally world and get one of the little $6 bullet 'personal massagers' from the aisle with the prophylactics.
If you've got room in the mag, I think first I'd just let them seat a little longer since you say it's only smooshing in the last couple k. See how those work, might save a bit of chasing.
Funny enough, I kinda thought about that… but I was hoping I wasn’t gonna have to go down that road.
Fwiw the short fb shot 105 hybrids unbelievably well. One of the most accurate barrels I have ever had.
Turns out I found a personal BACK massager in the pile of crap we have at the charging area in the kitchen... I'll try it.
I could swear that there are small industrial vibration pads for shit like this, but clearly my GoogleFu stinks.
I could swear that there are small industrial vibration pads for shit like this, but clearly my GoogleFu stinks.
Fair enough. It's been a few years, and I was guesstimating the time lineYou probably didn’t use and sell that 6x47 before the 6.5 Creedmoor came out as it was only 2 years after the 6.5x47 came out.
ya got me I do know I sold that gun (Stiller TAC30, Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, AICS chassis) well before Savage came out with their 6.5CM 12 LRP, whenever that was. Both pretty capable guns in their own way, and both gave me an extra helping of heart burn along the way.
Geeze, you guys are making this way harder than it needs to be (probably a pun there as well)...
Turn on your vibratory tumbler - assuming you still have one of those around somewhere? - put your finger over the case mouth and hold the base of the case against the drum while it's running.
Charge the cases, sit the bullets in the case mouth, take the whole tray and hold it up against a running vibratory tumbler for 20-30 seconds. Voila, whole tray of 50 done at once, and no lost powder kernels.
Fair enough. It's been a few years, and I was guesstimating the time line
I do know I sold that gun (Stiller TAC30, Lilja barrel, Jewell trigger, AICS chassis) well before Savage came out with their 6.5CM 12 LRP, whenever that was. Both pretty capable guns in their own way, and both gave me an extra helping of heart burn along the way.
Yeah that sounds like a mid to late 2000s build lol I was just playing around some.
I am going to send you a strippergram… but you’re not gonna like the kinda stripper you like that shows up!!!
Muhahahahahhaha
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I use the model 2 stem with 6mm creed and haven’t had any issues.
6 CM here with 26" M24 Bartlein
H4350: 41 gr
Burger 109 LRHT
Lupua Brass Small Primer
CCI BR-4
OAL: 2.83 +- 0.002
FPS: 3100 (SD around 7 . Clean barrel and cold bore it drops to around 3050)
Groups are normally well under 0.5 MOA, but I have seen 0.136 MOA for best case.
H4350: 41 gr
Burger 109 LRHT
Lupua Brass Small Primer
CCI BR-4
OAL: 2.83 +- 0.002
FPS: 3100 (SD around 7 . Clean barrel and cold bore it drops to around 3050)
Groups are normally well under 0.5 MOA, but I have seen 0.136 MOA for best case.
Using up some old components while I waited for the 'good' brass to show up... S107MK @ 2.050" BTO (~40 thou jump), 2x Hornady brass, BR2 primers, 42.0 gn H4350 running @ ~3050 fps. Bullets and primers are probably 18-20 yrs old. Barrel is a Criterion 26" med Palma "variable headspace" aka Sav barrel nut pre-fit in an Origin action. Barrel came to me used, looks okay so far
