Awesome thank you.It’s a spreadsheet for load development that the 65 Guys made. It’s really handy.
You can find it here.
Load Development Analysis
Determination of the optimal load for your rifle necessarily includes some form of analysis. In this episode we cover load development analysis – as a follow-up to the very popular 6.5 Guys L…www.65guys.com
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Range Report 6GT Project/Range Report
- Thread starter NorCal Vu
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Alpha brass always shows that.
Doesn’t matter what charge you use. You will always be able to see ejecter marks.
It’s not a pressure sign in this case.
Thanks.. that is good to know but it's not something I really care for.
H4350 seems to do it less for a given speed.
Anyone having issues with alpha?
As low as 31.8 is giving me heavy bolt lift. PTG reamer from gap. Hornady not having this issue (at least not yet).
Seeing the issue with virgin and fired brass. Have tried everything from not sizing/sizing virgin, as well as turning/not turning necks.
Case length is well under max. Neck clearance is fine.
I’d say on average, 1:5 pcs of virgin brass and most all fired brass having issues.
Sizing die is sizing down to the .2 line. (I’d be looking much harder at die if virgin brass wasn’t doing it as well).
As low as 31.8 is giving me heavy bolt lift. PTG reamer from gap. Hornady not having this issue (at least not yet).
Seeing the issue with virgin and fired brass. Have tried everything from not sizing/sizing virgin, as well as turning/not turning necks.
Case length is well under max. Neck clearance is fine.
I’d say on average, 1:5 pcs of virgin brass and most all fired brass having issues.
Sizing die is sizing down to the .2 line. (I’d be looking much harder at die if virgin brass wasn’t doing it as well).
i am running Hornady 105’s right now at 37.3 of H4350. Have ran250’s pieces of new brass and haven’t had an issue. Some of them have some force to chamber and force the bolt down but I figured that’s because they are new and I didn’t resize them.
I have 50 more new pieces to use then I’m going to resize and see if that goes away.
Unless I’m having an issue and need to verify without sizing, or unless I’m using a chamber already set to .005-.006 neck clearance, I’m turning my brass to get that clearance. So I end up running it all through a sizer to get the next tension sorted back out (bushing down and mandrel up).
I haven’t run into a problem with hornady as of yet. But alpha has had issues in two barrels on two rifles (same reamer, so that is a possibility at the moment as the culprit).
I also have had/have similar issues with alpha dasher. So, slight pattern forming.
Yes. Same specs across the board.
I was speaking in general terms of neck clearance. A lot of reamers (across calibers) that are “no neck turn” are set up for .003 or so clearance.
That should be called a “neck turn not required” reamer. It’ll work, but a lot of people prefer something a little more like .006.
GT is a .273 neck. Most loaded hornady and alpha will be around .269-270
have you checked measurements near the head? my guess is that the alpha is thicker and especially at the head and the sizing die is not sizing the base enough...i had the same issue when i shot a BRX...every couple of firings i had to small base size and finally bought a custom from whidden...try small base sizing and see if that helps...if you dont have a small base die i have one you can borrow if you want.
Happening with virgin brass and not just fired. So, either the brass is issue or the reamer at this point.
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Bullet slides freely
Less than 100rnds on this barrel. Can’t be copperin
I only have varget in the house for this reason. Use it in .223, .308, 6br, dasher, and 6gt. No other powder here.
Shoulders only moving .005 (.007 on some at the very most, but usually .005 from virgin to fired)
I’ve eliminated almost everything possible down to two variables left:
Brass
Reamer
And so far, hornady brass works.......
@Dthomas3523
Do you know the lot numbers for your alpha brass by chance?
If they are the same as mine I'll check my supply in my gun for reference. Maybe help you narrow some things down.
Do you know the lot numbers for your alpha brass by chance?
If they are the same as mine I'll check my supply in my gun for reference. Maybe help you narrow some things down.
thats what i mean...maybe the head is a little big to began with then when fired even more then sized and not enough with spring back.
with my BRX im prttey sure the reamer was just a bit under sized.
It could be. I’ll measure again. I’m pretty sure my die sizes all the way to the base properly. I checked a few weeks ago when I had issues with fired brass at a match and it was sizing down.
I had similar issues with dasher brass and have been contacted here and on FB by numerous people via PM who have been seeing issues with brass (mainly dasher) as well.
I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that if lapua doesn’t make brass for it, I’m not chambering a barrel for something until they do.
this is why i went away from the BRX because of similar issues plus the fire forming...ive also went away from lapua brass in favor of peterson...the peterson handles pressure much better in everything ive shot it in.
I have not sized that way before but might try it out. I usually just use the comparator and resize two thousandths.
Conclusions I’ve come up with after a couple barrels:
Reamer out of spec
Brass out of spec
Brass hardness issues
Reamer out of spec
Brass out of spec
Brass hardness issues
Dthomas, did you get the lot numbers for your brass? Maybe yours is the first batch? I have some Alpha, waiting on my barrel.
I’ll have to look and it’s likely mixed up with several lots.
When I pay $1.15/per, I don’t expect to need to keep track of lots for functionality when there is a single standard reamer spec for the design.
If you have several lots, doing the same thing, it probably doesn't matter anyway. I agree, at the price differential between Hornady and Alpha, you should not have to track lot numbers. I have 200, all the same lot. When my barrel arrives I'll post more, if this thread is still going.
I wish we could get a sticky in the Reloading Depot. External ballistics is an odd place to track reloading.
I wish we could get a sticky in the Reloading Depot. External ballistics is an odd place to track reloading.
Hornady is performing very well so far.
I’m actually on my way to have a guy change one of these barrels to 6x47.
Will have
6gt
6br
6x47
Barrels to compare this year and see how they do. Basically a side by side of the three that are related in design or intended use.
run a 6BRA reamer in that 6BR barrel and run peterson brass fed205M and varget and i bet youd be a happy man.
I've got 250 hornady
On their 3rd firing 0 issues I'll be sticking with them!
Bolt is easy until just before the cam. Basically as it’s getting to where you’d see most 60deg open (this is a 90), it sticks there and I have to apply a lot of pressure or hit the bolt open with my palm.
So trying to follow along with this
You've used both Hornady and alpha brass in the same rifle and your only having the problem with the alpha correct?
That would say to me that it's nothing to do with pressure, it's all about primary extraction. And that relates to base diameter usually.
I measure base diameter with a vernier micrometer instead of calipers, bit more accurate that way. I lay the micrometer flat on a table and measure the base/web at the fattest area by standing it on the case head. I ran into difficulties with primary extraction if the base diameter was less than 0.0004 smaller than chamber size. Once I get to 0.0006 or more sizing the clickers go away. If you haven't seen this one before it's a good breakdown.
Agreed. However, there is a problem.
Either the brass is oversized or the reamer is undersized. That’s what I’d like to get to the bottom of. Something isn’t matching up between the chamber and the brass.
True, but long term it becomes more of a question of whether the dies match the chamber. If the dies give adequate sizing then all you need to do is run the virgin brass through the dies before first firing.
I apologize if you’ve already done this. Do you have the measurements on the base and shoulder diameters on Hornady vs Alpha, virgin, fired, and sized? That should clear up any differences. If the dimensions for both brands are identical throughout the firing process, then the Alpha brass itself could be the culprit.
Do you own your reamer? If you have it in hand you could try to measure the base diameter. I’m gun shy on PTG reamers, so I waited for a JGS.
So, it'd be hard to gauge the hardness of the brass without some tools. One other thing you could check that might show a dimensional issue with the Alpha stuff is to measure case capacity via the water method? Maybe measure a Hornady, too? I'm not intimately familiar with GT, but it seems like 31.8 should be a super light load. If the case volume is significantly lower in the Alpha stuff (thicker walls, etc), obviously that could be an issue.
Past that, based on everything else you've looked at and tried, I'd start to blame the brass (just because Hornady brass works fine - if they both had issues, I'd look at the chamber first). There are a few other things you could compare between the two - like flash hole size, etc, but those should be minimal factors. You could potentially have someone measure the reamer (or chamber), or cast the chamber, and determine the final dimensions, but ...
Past that, based on everything else you've looked at and tried, I'd start to blame the brass (just because Hornady brass works fine - if they both had issues, I'd look at the chamber first). There are a few other things you could compare between the two - like flash hole size, etc, but those should be minimal factors. You could potentially have someone measure the reamer (or chamber), or cast the chamber, and determine the final dimensions, but ...
exactly my thought ? 6x47 and be done... fuck the brass prep. Plus, you can run H4350 and delete that carbon ring problem... (which, I think, is the reason @Dthomas3523 is having a 6x47 barrel spun up to test out)
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No way!
That's why I went with the GT instead of the dasher hated the thought of forming the dasher brass
6x47L was such a great cartridge for me for 13 years, no problems but I did have one custom size die I sold with a rifle, and then a Warner die.
Owned my own reamer that whole time and still have the brass with 38+ cycles on it that holds a primer well. Last load was 3172 fps with 105's in a 28" barrel.
Have your smith throat it out some more then use H4831SC.
Lapua brass man!
Owned my own reamer that whole time and still have the brass with 38+ cycles on it that holds a primer well. Last load was 3172 fps with 105's in a 28" barrel.
Have your smith throat it out some more then use H4831SC.
Lapua brass man!
Well, look at what guys like Dan and Vu did at the beginning of this thread... before Hornady brass came online... Original GT brass was formed from 6.5x47... that's the brass prep @phlegethon was getting at...
I've read this thread and the duplicate one on accurate shooter
Real good stuff.
they said plainly making the brass was a pain.
I was planning a Dasher build but when hornady brass was available I was sold and glad I did
It's an awesome little cartridge.
It's not a hard puzzle to solve. It is frustrating. Think of all the 6XC Gen 1 vs Gen 2 vs 6-22/250 drama that's out there.
If you don't know how, ask your smith. Or PM me. I've read your other posts, you seem very knowledgeable, and obviously can shoot.
The Reamer->Virgin brass-->Sizing Die all have to be on the same sheet of music. If they are, then it could be a banana chamber, banana die, or a bad lot of brass (rare).
Base diameter [email protected] north of case head
Base diameter of virgin Hornady
Base diameter of virgin Alpha
Base diameter of fired Hornady
Base diameter of fired Alpha
Base diameter of sized Hornady
Base diameter of sized Alpha
If you have a sticky fired Alpha and then another not sticky fired Alpha, add that into the list above.
If your annealing, describe your annealing practices.
If you capture the above dimensions one of them will usually stand out. If it doesn't, then look at shoulder diameter .050 south of body/shoulder junction, and capture the same dimensions.
If you don't know how, ask your smith. Or PM me. I've read your other posts, you seem very knowledgeable, and obviously can shoot.
The Reamer->Virgin brass-->Sizing Die all have to be on the same sheet of music. If they are, then it could be a banana chamber, banana die, or a bad lot of brass (rare).
Base diameter [email protected] north of case head
Base diameter of virgin Hornady
Base diameter of virgin Alpha
Base diameter of fired Hornady
Base diameter of fired Alpha
Base diameter of sized Hornady
Base diameter of sized Alpha
If you have a sticky fired Alpha and then another not sticky fired Alpha, add that into the list above.
If your annealing, describe your annealing practices.
If you capture the above dimensions one of them will usually stand out. If it doesn't, then look at shoulder diameter .050 south of body/shoulder junction, and capture the same dimensions.
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I have 800 rounds through my barrel, still half moa. I'm running it slow at 2900 with 34.3 GN of varget. All alpha brass but I did notice that my bolt was sticky with once fired. I'll try resizing down an extra .002.
I cleaned the chamber at 600 rounds when I heard Dthomas having issues. So far I'm liking the less recoil over the 6.5, gonna keep adding to the barrel life.
I cleaned the chamber at 600 rounds when I heard Dthomas having issues. So far I'm liking the less recoil over the 6.5, gonna keep adding to the barrel life.
Awesome. And either only half of my issue was the dirty chamber. Could have been 100% brass though. Will be experimenting a bit more here shortly. But for the moment I’m working on another more proven cartridge so I have something to shoot matches with until I have this worked out properly.
@Dthomas3523 I know it's an expensive option, but have you considered a custom sizing die? I've been looking at (and lusting) over a Warner Tools sizing die for years. Since I shoot so few calibers, I think I'm going to take the plunge. I own my 6GT and 6.5x47L reamers, and have large lots of brass, so it makes sense to me. You have the ability to spec out exactly what you want, and the die is made from your fired brass and reamer print.
Not saying that's the solution to what's going on, but a $600 die and swappable caliber inserts might be cheaper in the long run than spinning up a new barrel, buying brass, AND new dies for a 6x47L.
I also have an odd issue with my 6.5x47L, where regardless of sizing die (I've tried 3 different brands), I have to bump my shoulder back 0.003 - 0.004" in order to close the bolt with no resistance. I can't figure it out for the life of me, but I know I'll be cutting the life of my brass by sizing that much each firing.
Also, have you had your 6GT reamer inspected? I've heard enough horror stories about PTG to know it's possible that the reamer is the issue.
Not saying that's the solution to what's going on, but a $600 die and swappable caliber inserts might be cheaper in the long run than spinning up a new barrel, buying brass, AND new dies for a 6x47L.
I also have an odd issue with my 6.5x47L, where regardless of sizing die (I've tried 3 different brands), I have to bump my shoulder back 0.003 - 0.004" in order to close the bolt with no resistance. I can't figure it out for the life of me, but I know I'll be cutting the life of my brass by sizing that much each firing.
Also, have you had your 6GT reamer inspected? I've heard enough horror stories about PTG to know it's possible that the reamer is the issue.
I agree with investigating the reamer - PTG has notoriously bad QC. I know gunsmiths that won't even use reamers from PTG.
That's probably the first thing I would look at.
That's probably the first thing I would look at.
