6mm Crusader

[buffybuster]

Re: 6mm Crusader

eddybo,

Are you saying the Dtacs are coming apart beyond 3300fps spun at 1/7.5?

Do you think if it was a 3-groove barrel that might be better, since there is less engraving/deformation of the bullet? Or a 1/8 twist might be better at >3300fps.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: 6mm Crusader

A 3 groove barrel is worse for tearing up bullets, lots of surface compression and what not. Kirby Allen is the man on this subject.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: 6mm Crusader

We are using 1-9 at the breech and 1-8 at the muzzle 5R T style. Bartlein. Also trying a straight 1-8

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: 6mm Crusader

How does a twist like that effect the surface of the bullet? I've heard of rifling like that, but know nothing about it. If you could catch the bullet on a cloud(no impact deformation), would the lands grooves look like normal rifling? Also, is it a continuous acceleration in twist from 1-9 to 1-8?

Is there a "BEST" book out there on rifle barrel making? Explaining how to push/pull button and cut rifle a barrel? I'm getting ready to buy books for school and I can afford a little more literature than they require.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Gain twist...nice. Is the barrel made out of a meteorite?

 

[SPM]

Re: 6mm Crusader

George, I have a action and stock ready for a barrel. I would be happy to test it all summer long at Parma's 100 yrd line off a bench. Sal

 

[buffybuster]

Re: 6mm Crusader

If dtacs from a 1/7.5 are blowing up at 3300fps that's 5280rps

If dtacs from a 1/8 are OK at 3300fps that's 4950rps

Maybe the dtacs have a RPS limit around 5000rps.

What other cartridges/bullets have a higher than 5000RPS value? A 220Swift is 4000fps but the twist is usually 1/12 so that's 4000rps. Wondering if 5000rps is some material threshold of lead core and gliding metal jacket.

RPS = Revolutions Per Second

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Excellent points regarding the limitations of DTAC fps. I'll definately keep that in mind!

 

[VTi]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LongRanger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1000 ft elevation, 10 MPH FULL VALUE

338 Lapua 300 SMK at 2700 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">7.9m Ele</span>, 4.9m Wind, 1600 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">17.2m Ele</span>, 9.1m Wind

7mm WSM 180 Berger at 2900 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">7.1m Ele</span>, 5.0m Wind, 1600 Yds <span style="font-weight: bold">15.8m Ele</span>, 9.5m Wind



6mm Crusader 115dt at 3300 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">5.6m Ele</span>, 5.0m Wind, 1600 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">13.1m Ele</span>, 9.6m Wind


Without recoil </div></div>

George, I just can't figure out how you are getting 4.9 mils windage with a 2700 fps .338lm @ 1000 yds and 10 mph wind. Unless, maybe, your target is moving at 10 mph also? Is that what 10 MPH FULL VALUE means? Excuse my ignorance, I'm just trying to understand.

</div></div>

You are right, the wind data is very incorrect. He probably did use Mils for elevation, and MOA for windage correction, even though said otherwise above.

"10 MPH FULL VALUE" means that the full value of the wind is in a direction perpendicular to the path of the bullet, i.e. 10mph from 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock. If the wind were coming from say 7 o'clock, a percentage less than the full 10mph would have to be accounted for, not the "full value".

I don't know where this data comes from. I shoot both .338LM/300SMK and 7wsm/180 Berger and a 10mph wind at 1k yds is around 1.0-1.1 mil. I'm not shooting them nearly as slow as the velocities posted though. My data is 2900fps for the 300gr and 3050fps for the 180vld.

 

[fireball168]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Winchester .257 Roberts +P brass was the most consistent I could find a few years ago for forming 6mm AI.

Consider a hydraulic forming die from Hornady to save you throat wear and powder/projectile expense in forming the cases.

 

[Thunderin300]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Can this be ran in an AR-10 platform or is that just wishful thinking??

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thunderin300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can this be ran in an AR-10 platform or is that just wishful thinking??</div></div>

Too much pressure for the AR-10



Update, Getting 3300 is no sweat, but have been seeing the best results with Velocity in the 3250 range.

Trying a couple differnt powders this week.


So far Retumbo, RL25, H1000, RL 22, 4831SC have all been used

Retumbo is the Velocity king at the moment. and H4831 SC has produced groups in the teens. the test rifle averages so far .370 for over 40 groups fired now. biggest group to date is only .6ish

25 sets of Redding S Serries Competition dies in the works should have them in 8 weeks or so.


No bullets have come apart yet Matt Hoch has had some velocitys in the 3350 range and they stayed together. Pressure was too high in that load

Brass life is looking OK so far 6 firings on loads in the 3200-3270 range

Will update more soon, Will have the rifle ready with ammo for the Hide Cup.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: 6mm Crusader

"Will have the rifle ready with ammo for the Hide Cup"

wonderful...now i can only pray its not windy. LOL

KJ

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Something new from GA George. I hope I do not get talked in to one.

Looks like a GREAT caliber George.

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Bump for more info.....anything new George?

I would really like to know the parent case....

 

[Austan]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Parent case was mentioned as 6mm rem. PAY ATTENTION NOAH!

 

[NOMAD]

Re: 6mm Crusader

How have i been missing this topic!!

Glad i dont have to bite my tongue on this project anymore!!

Good stuff here men.

 

[rijndael]

Re: 6mm Crusader

NOMAD .... you have 14 posts? What happened to the previous 3k?

 

[jasonk]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rijndael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NOMAD .... you have 14 posts? What happened to the previous 3k?</div></div>

Don't talk to the new guy

That's funny!

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

I thought it was just suggested by someone as the parent case...and wasnt confirmed buy George....I figured it was a 6mm Rem...I was going to get ahold of one tonight to compare to the pictures on the first page....

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

The above is strictly based off of the 115 DTAC at 3300 FPS with the advertised 0.580 BC....

This isnt a very in-depth ballistic program but it will give some a general idea...

OH and by the way its in MOA...

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1000 ft elevation, 10 MPH FULL VALUE

338 Lapua 300 SMK at 2700 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">7.9m Ele</span>, 4.9m Wind, 1600 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">17.2m Ele</span>, 9.1m Wind

7mm WSM 180 Berger at 2900 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">7.1m Ele</span>, 5.0m Wind, 1600 Yds <span style="font-weight: bold">15.8m Ele</span>, 9.5m Wind



6mm Crusader 115dt at 3300 1000 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">5.6m Ele</span>, 5.0m Wind, 1600 yds <span style="font-weight: bold">13.1m Ele</span>, 9.6m Wind


Without recoil </div></div>

What barrel length will you be using to atain the 3300fps? i think you are comparing the cartridges unfairly. If you use hand loads and long match barrels the 7mm WSM will launch the 180's over 3000fps and the 38 Lapua will get 2850fps. Especialy if you load ALL 3 cartridges to the same pressure and use the same barrel lengths in all.

Im not saying you wont get the peformance but 3300fps might be obtainable in one barrel then blow the ass out of the case with another barrel with the same specs with a 107 yes 3300fps is tops in a 6mmAI so i can not see with a short throat and still running within 65k psi you will get above 3200fps no way will you reach 3500fps.

Good luck though it should give long range potential to an AI mag fed rifle with better barrel life UNLESS you run it at 3300fps you will toast the barrel.

Sounds like a good project but please compare balistics that are on a fair futting. If i was limited to 3100fps i would use this case in a heart beat lower presure 115gr projectuile in 6mm you will be there at the pointy end. Dont go down the 6.5 route as you will have a problem with mag length and anything heavier than a 123gr projectile.

 

[JRose]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Mike clued me into this one tonight, if there's no fire forming of brass necessary, then I might be in on this!

I'm trying to get my ducks in a row to have a new .243/.308 switch barrel in a BO action, I might want to try this little jewel instead...

Can't wait to see it in action at the cup!

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 6mm Crusader

6mm rem was always a sleeper. I shot a 6mmAI for a few years and always kicked myself in the ass for getting rid of it.

So this is on a SA and fits into modified AICS mags. sweet Jesus...

George, standby for the .308 coming back for a switch barrel...

ballistics seem to good to be true...

what NOMAD said.. how did I miss this thread...errr oh man...

 

[223ai]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Bump to find out how it performed at the Cup?

 

[JRWALLSIII]

Re: 6mm Crusader

George, Lets see those specs. The orders should start to begin.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: 6mm Crusader

With the BC of the 6.5mm bullets available, why do with a 6mm?

6.5 bergers are in the mid 6.4ish range, Lost River Ballistic Technologies feature a 120gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.687 BC, a 132gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.702 BC, and a 144gr 6.5mm bullet with a 0.772 BC!

http://www.lostriverballistic.com/LRB/CategoryShow.cfm?CNum=1

I forsee a wildcat in my future, 6.5mm Crusader "Crusher"...

 

[jasonk]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Are Lost River bullets $110 per 500 like DTACS are?

 

[steve123]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Isn't Lost River out of business???

 

[Mike]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Besides, when we start saying "larger bullets" that becomes a downward spiral.

To take advantage of those 6.5 bc's, you must have the powder and capacity to push them. Therefore you have a larger cartridge. Then if the 6.5 does well, it doesn't compare to a 7mm. Then it's a 7WSM, etc, etc.

To me, the 243 is king and perhaps the 6mmC will take the thrown, but I'm staying with the 243/115's

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides, when we start saying "larger bullets" that becomes a downward spiral.

To take advantage of those 6.5 bc's, you must have the powder and capacity to push them. Therefore you have a larger cartridge. Then if the 6.5 does well, it doesn't compare to a 7mm. Then it's a 7WSM, etc, etc.

To me, the 243 is king and perhaps the 6mmC will take the thrown, but I'm staying with the 243/115's</div></div>

Goes back to the old addage, there is not free lunch. I am hoping for a highly reduced lunch with my 6.5x47 with the 123 Scenars..lol

 

[Blackhawk95]

Re: 6mm Crusader

I know all about the 6mm bullet blowups!! I had a brand new Lilja barrel in a .243Ai and it would eat any bullet when shot over 2975fps. it was a 3 groove too. Ive since switched to a Broughton 5C barrel and have run the 115 DTACs to 3170 with a hot load.

Im more curious as to the barrel life on the 6mmC?

 

[chrisj]

Re: 6mm Crusader

George...is the brass that you will sell, standard 6mm Rem, or is it an already formed case with a different headstamP? Who will manufacture the brass? Also...what is the OAL of this cartridge with the 115?

Thanks

 

[KYS]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Will you be starting to make the rifles anytime soon? Im getting really interested in this cartridge!

Looks to be promising

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Im diein here.....throw us a bone George....

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: 6mm Crusader

I should have some info soon. I am going to try and run one at the norcal shoot. Got a nice pink stock so i will fit in

 

[Longrange****]

Re: 6mm Crusader

HAHAHA....

You planing on doing a write up Glen or are you going to post your findings here?

 

[Tribe]

Re: 6mm Crusader

.

 

[jasonk]

Re: 6mm Crusader

I've got 10# of R-25 just hoping that George is gonna hook me up soon!! OH....and lots of Dtacs too.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Fits nicley in an AICS (with plate removed) or Std AIAW mag

Bulets are seated to be .005" in the lands at this length.

</div></div>

sorry for the off topic post, but I'm looking for the thread that shows how to remove that front plate. Did all the searches and came up with nothing. Anyone?

 

[Kells81]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Would be interested in buying a Reamer and a set of dies, looks like a neat round, especially if it will feed out of an AI mag, I have a 6x284 and thats the only thing I do not like about it

 

[JRose]

Re: 6mm Crusader

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Fits nicley in an AICS (with plate removed) or Std AIAW mag

Bulets are seated to be .005" in the lands at this length.

</div></div>



sorry for the off topic post, but I'm looking for the thread that shows how to remove that front plate. Did all the searches and came up with nothing. Anyone?
</div></div>

Just drill out the two spot welds and pull it out. Then weld up the holes so that the bullet tips don't stick in them.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Re: 6mm Crusader

30 sets of Redding Comp Seat, S Series Dies are in , I have 2 more reamers on the way so I have a couple spares to loan out. I am ready to start offering Re-chambers, and barrel jobs.

Rifle must use the Badger M5 or Seekins Mag system to get the proper length. Or be in an AICS stock with the correct mags. I have plenty of SA mags without plate available. Also works well in AI AW with a little work on the Mags.

6mm Rem Brass is the doner brass that needs to be fire formed. if loaded to 2.950 it actully shoots in the three's in my rifle when fireforming.

With a little luck their will be Brass available for it by 2010.

 

[cypriss32]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Dammit George...... I guess when my 243 is back from you Ill send in another action and get one built.

 

[JRose]

Re: 6mm Crusader

George,

Will the potential brass be Remmy brass, or another maker?

Once the brass drops, I'd like to try it...

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Ok guys I got a barrel, reamer and im building one...What kind of information are you interested in? I will document load development, crony readings and keep track of barrel life.

I will run it from mild to wild, so if there's any bullets or powder you want to know about i will test it. I will even try for a speed you want to see within reason.. it wont be the first time i have taken a barrel off to remove a stuck bolt...even with a handle that's welded on and 2x4 proof

 

[Will Cocke]

Re: 6mm Crusader

I got a little range time behind one Of George's personal 6mm crusaders this last week. Suprising to me was that the felt recoil was less than that of my 243. It was also 3 tenths of a mil flatter at 400. The brass we were shooting was on its 5th loading and still seemed to be in perfect condition. The accuracy at 100 was 1/4 to 3/8 repeatedly for 5 rounds. Now the only thing I am debating is when to send him my 243 for a rechamber.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Will, it must have been a heavier gun otherwise you are breaking the laws of physics here...... The 6mm Crusader is a 243 with more "junk in the trunk" so the opposing force will simply be more.

I'm still waiting for the barrel reports! This cartridge looks like sweet in every other variable minus expected barrel life and is sure to keep your gunsmith in business (not that that is a bad thing)!

 

[Will Cocke]

Re: 6mm Crusader

Was in an aics chassis with #5 but mine is in an A5 with tc cheek with #7 barrel deep fluted I would guess within a pound of each other. I did not have them both to shoot at the same time but recoil felt less. The neck is so long on the new case i would think barrel life would be similar give or take 500 rnds or so..