Even though I have over 200 rds of the PH 175 gr ELD-X, I am wondering if I should switch to the CX Outfitter. Mostly because of bullet performance. I was watching another guy chart out how the difference in speed was not enough to make for the value both entrance and exit wounds. Anecdotal story to tell about shooting elk right in the boiler with a .300 RUM with a lead tipped bullet and the elk just looked in their direction and took off. Then he came back in the clearing a little farther away and the second shot brought him down. Pure luck that he came back in because he was really focused on the cows he was chasing. The summation being that a CX or some copper expanding projecticle would maintain some integrity and create an exit wound to help collapse the lungs and also give more chances of creating a blood trail.
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4 shots, 4 kills for me on the 7 PRC with the Hornady Outfitter load this last season. All of them were deer, no elk. Pretty happy. 3 of the 4 went down where they stood. #4 was dead on his feet, he just didn’t realize it for a little ways. If you’re looking for factory, definitely try it out. It was crazy accurate in my rifle. A lot of penetration too. Shot a muley doe facing me at 360 yards. She toppled over and rolled with her legs in the air. That was it. Around 30” of penetration, ending up in the spine.
It would be good to get this thread pinned in the reloading section as the 7PRC discussion thread. I wonder how to request that?
Did you go with a flat or conical breech for your barrel to CDG ? (conical wasn't needed but was just curious)
I had SPR do the conical breach as they already were familiar with it and it is a slightly stronger design due to the extra support it provides the bolt when in battery.
Pardon my ignorance but how or where is the extra support coming from in a conical barrel? Genuinely asking because I am building a 7 prc using a CDG.
The case will be fully supported. Base shouldn't protrude like in your sketch.
I think the extra support @lash is referring to would be the extractor that has an angle which mates to the coned breach. It adds some additional constraint to the extractor on a closed bolt when using the coned breach.
Ted outlined this somewhere in the several thousand posts on the CDG thread.
I know we have moved on but I was circling back to the kerfluffle with Jim at Backfire specifically focusing on the Hornady 7 PRC being slower than the box MV by 150 to 200 fps.
I was looking at CX outfitter reviews in case I wanted to switch to the copper expander and I happened across this review from several months back for the Hornady CX Outfitter in .270 Win.
He noted that it was a wide group out of his rifle and that is due to how a solid copper bullet acts as opposed to cup and core with lead or other ballistic tip. The .270 was averaged (meaning there are highs and lows) at 109 fps slower than the box.
Also, me not having any experience with monolithic copper bullets, I noticed he said performance can vary widely. One rifle such as his Model 70 might get a group of 5 or 6 inches and yet it would do great in another rifle.
Point being, no one made a big deal about it until Backfire did. Even though it is a thing that happens with factory ammo. I am sure if you hand load and chase the lands just a little bit, even though Hornady mentions it does not really affect anything in load development and use at least a 24 inch barrel (which is what they used,) you can get 3k fps. I have seen someone doing it with 6.8 Western. Which you may end up handloading because it may not on all shelves everywhere.
And GunBroker is not always the cheapest price.
I think the big advantage of a copper bullet is that it will, even though expanding, is more likely to produce an exit wound that aids in lung deflation and also a better trail with more exsaguination.
I was looking at CX outfitter reviews in case I wanted to switch to the copper expander and I happened across this review from several months back for the Hornady CX Outfitter in .270 Win.
He noted that it was a wide group out of his rifle and that is due to how a solid copper bullet acts as opposed to cup and core with lead or other ballistic tip. The .270 was averaged (meaning there are highs and lows) at 109 fps slower than the box.
Also, me not having any experience with monolithic copper bullets, I noticed he said performance can vary widely. One rifle such as his Model 70 might get a group of 5 or 6 inches and yet it would do great in another rifle.
Point being, no one made a big deal about it until Backfire did. Even though it is a thing that happens with factory ammo. I am sure if you hand load and chase the lands just a little bit, even though Hornady mentions it does not really affect anything in load development and use at least a 24 inch barrel (which is what they used,) you can get 3k fps. I have seen someone doing it with 6.8 Western. Which you may end up handloading because it may not on all shelves everywhere.
And GunBroker is not always the cheapest price.
I think the big advantage of a copper bullet is that it will, even though expanding, is more likely to produce an exit wound that aids in lung deflation and also a better trail with more exsaguination.
I’ll just say this one thing that I’ve been told by some guys involved in ELR and found to be true in my case also.
Switching back and forth from conventional cup and core bullets to monolithic will often, if not usually show bad results. You want to truly test one or the other, you need to fully clean that barrel before and afterwards, using a copper solvent cleaner. Then break it in for a few rounds before beginning testing.
You might be surprised at the difference in your results.
Started initial load dev today with Berger 175gr and 195gr elite hunters. Loaded 3 rounds at various charges working up toward book max with powders listed below to check accuracy and for pressure. 24” Proof Carbon prefit Origin barrel. Hornady 1x fired brass, AMP annealed, FL resized, .310 bushing, trimmed, CCI MLRP. I’ll note I’m jumping both these bullets .090. Long throat on the Proof.
Tried R26, H1000, VV N570 and N565. Winner was N570 with both the 175 and 195. Both bullets with N570 gave me an initial 1/2“ group and the best velocity with powders tested with the 175s. Still need to test further, chrono the 195s and test both at distance, but happy with results so far.
Berger 175gr EH
74gr VV N570
3085FPS, SD 7.1
Berger 195gr EH
70.4gr VV N570
Tried R26, H1000, VV N570 and N565. Winner was N570 with both the 175 and 195. Both bullets with N570 gave me an initial 1/2“ group and the best velocity with powders tested with the 175s. Still need to test further, chrono the 195s and test both at distance, but happy with results so far.
Berger 175gr EH
74gr VV N570
3085FPS, SD 7.1
Berger 195gr EH
70.4gr VV N570
ADG states basically that you'll pressure out sooner with their cases if I'm understanding it correctly.
Has "sooner" been defined in any way?
Of course you always work up but how far down do I really need to go? I don't really want to be wasting time and components by going further than I need to.
I'll be testing the Hornady 180s and Berger 190s
CCI 250s
H4831SC, H1000, and Retumbo
Has "sooner" been defined in any way?
Of course you always work up but how far down do I really need to go? I don't really want to be wasting time and components by going further than I need to.
I'll be testing the Hornady 180s and Berger 190s
CCI 250s
H4831SC, H1000, and Retumbo
I’m interested to see a velocity comparison with the 4 powders you tried. The n570 has been doing great in mine despite the slow burn rate.
Didn‘t chrono all charges. I shot for accuracy and if it looked descent I loaded a few more for a velocity check. I don‘t love reloading and don’t want to burn through components / barrel. Just want to find an accurate consistent load that will kill Elk. NM draw will be any day now
. 7PRC w/ 175 BEH.
R26 67.1gr. 2951fps (1moa), also tried 67.5 and 67.8, which is max, but groups opened up.
H1000 67.1gr 2812fps (1moa), 70.6 is max but didn’t have enough powder to test a lot more charges. Would be worth exploring more.
N565 69gr gave me 3/4moa. 70.0 is max. This powder is worth exploring more.
N570 74gr gave me 1/2moa (twice) and 3085fps. This is where I wanted to be, so I‘ll be happy if it stays consistent. I think one of benefits of N570 is the 100+% case fill. N565 is 98% case fill rate.
Wasn‘t going to try 195s, but buddy gave me a box. My bbl throat, twist and mag can take them so why not. With the 195s I tried 70.4 of N570 (max is 71.4gr), 1/2MOA and 65.5 of N565 (max is 66.5), 1.5MOA. Not much room in the case with these powders for the 195s. I’ll chrono the 195s w/N570 today.
Did you have to do anything to get that much powder in the case? When I get over like 70ish with n570 I have to start using an electric toothbrush to vibrate the case and settle the powder.
It’s Hornady brass so have a bit more volume than premium brass. I just pour powder slow into case and then with a bullet slightly into neck (to keep powder from coming out), I tap the case to get powder to settle. Then I seat the bullet.
With the 175’s I’m 2.329 CBTO and with the 195 I’m 2.507 CBTO.
I just chronoed the 195s w/ 70.4gr N570 and I’m getting 2909fps, SD7.
Embrace the CRUNCH with N570! It seems to work very very well with 180s and above in ADG brass so far. My last 8 shots in a ladder with N570 were much much tighter than my 5 shot seating depth groups with H1000 and easily 100 plus fps faster… I hate testing powders but I’m done and 570 with heavy 7mm projectiles is my go too from now on for 7PRC just as it is for heavy cal 300NM….
Updated chrono pic of 7 shots in the node today….
Updated chrono pic of 7 shots in the node today….
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Can someone explain what the clickers issue is? I’ve seen it mentioned, but don’t know what I don’t know.
know issue. Dies and reamers are not right. Chambers typically need to be slightly larger or you need a custom die (small based) to size the body down. Standard dies do not size the body down enough and the clicker is the primary extraction being used at top of opening bolt.
Adding - there are reamers and dies out there already to solve this issue if you have it. Cortina did a reamer with an extra .0015 (I think) for the chamber so standard dies will size enough. For my 6.5 I use a 300 prc small based die and took a few thou off the bottom and run my brass in that - it sizes the body down an extra .0005 to .001 and no clickers.
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I took the Berger 175gr and 195gr elite hunters over N570 to 1000y yesterday. 1-3mph 90deg wind. The 175s (3085 fps) shot 1 moa (10”). I was pretty disappointed as I didn't have 2 rounds impact in the same spot, with vertical…. Let the rifle cool for 20min as I spotted for my buddy. Next up were the 195s. The 195s (2909fps) were slightly under 1/2MOA (measuring with reticle) with very little vertical. Nice round group
. For the 195s, the Kestrel and Revic BR4 gave me a 22.87 minute correction. I dialed 23min and sent a very slow 5 shot group. Needed 22.75 minutes for the 195s to 1000 @ 1100ft elevation, 45deg as my group looked to be about a 1/4min high. Trued both solvers (Cal MV in the Kestrel corrected my velocity to 2929). I then hit at 912, 700, and 654 after the bbl cooled. Pretty happy with this load.
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I've loaded 300PRC, 6.5CM, and now 7prc with ADG brass. I have yet to find that issue. Berger lists their 175 EH using Hornady brass and H1000 with a range of 64.2-70.6. I ran a ladder of 66-68.5 and never saw any pressure signs. Best group and ES was at 68.5 (20" barrel, 2850fps). I'm going to load some more and go up to 70. I wouldn't bother starting low.
When was the ammo purchased?Shot my newly built 7prc yesterday for the first time. Eld-ms averaged 2975 and had several break 3k fps
Novemberish. When was the loading change on their part? This could have set on the shelf a while too. Probably not too 7prc around me yet.
I honestly don't know when it switched over to the slower stuff but it's nice to have a data point like this. If I had to guess, the ammo you have is from before the change over so use it wisely. lol
I think so. 2 or 3 years ago when I started loading 300prc I had the same question about how much quicker you would see pressure. I seem to remember the general consensus was plan to be a 1/2 grain less than other brass. Again, Ive never seen any difference in pressure so I don’t know if that’s true or not.
I concur. Just started doing load testing with new 7PRC brass, using both 4831 and 1000 work ups. I’m over a grain higher than Hornady book max for each powder and have zero signs of pressure. I’ll start checking speeds later this week. And very consistent performance so far with both powders.
I wouldn’t go below 5%. I did that and while it was fun to shoot them, it’s just unnecessary rounds for me.
Disclaimer: suggestions and opinions on the internet are not scientifically verified and should be weighed against published data (lawyer speak).
With lawyer speak in mind...I appreciate the info.
This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out so thank you. I don't want to be needlessly wasting components.
I checked some for speeds the other day. I’m liking the H1000 over the H4831 so far. No pressure signs at all but I’ll probably not push it much farther and will explore around 68 gr for these 171s. Using the ADG brass can probably mask pressure signs from my way of thinking.
Anyone know how to decode the Hornady Lot # to determine manufacture date? I'm averaging only around 2825 fps from 175 ELD-X Precision Hunter from my 22" Bergara barrel. I presume these are recent lots with lower charge weights; but am still curious...
More than likely. And the change of powder was not all of a sudden. Basically, it's a click bait thing to act like this is "big ammo" sticking it to the small guy. Two things, the different powder and the different barrel length. Hornady used the good pwoder they had and a 24 inch barrel. I know for some people, two inches shorter doesn't make a lot of difference in speed but it does change, nevertheless.
Since that info has come out, I just change the MV in my ballistic solver to 2800 for the ELD-X.
I don't know if there is the same slow down in the CX Outfitter, which also has a box MV of 3000 fps. And some people are preferring that bullet, especially for elk hunting at distance. It often creates an exit wound, etc.
What I do not know is if they are using lower charge weights, though it could happen because accuracy is more important than the fastest speed.
Thanks, I was wondering. If I was hunting mule deer all the time, I would be tempted to change to CX. Most of distance is 300 yards and less and the ELD-X is just fine.
Anyone shooting solids yet? My load I thought I found went back to shooting like shit. Factory hornady outfitter shoots like shit. Every thing in this gun shoots like shit. About to give up on the 7prc.
Have you shot solids in other calibers? Were they also bad? Different rifle, same caliber, also bad?
Looking for some context.
Sometimes a rifle just does not like a bullet. Some rifles are more responsive to copper fouling and have to be ruthlessly cleaned. Other barrels, not so much.
Also, I have seen where someone had good groups from copper, then tried the ELD-X and went to shit. Went back to copper, went to shit. Until the barrel was cleaned completely.
To what @Ronws said,
I was just listening to a podcast about bullets yesterday. Bullet coppers vary in composition. Copper has a tendency to weld together. So if you shoot one bullet, and then switch to another, and then another, sometimes the copper fouling will be much worse than normal because the fouling will actually weld together and build rapidly, causing terrible accuracy.
I was just listening to a podcast about bullets yesterday. Bullet coppers vary in composition. Copper has a tendency to weld together. So if you shoot one bullet, and then switch to another, and then another, sometimes the copper fouling will be much worse than normal because the fouling will actually weld together and build rapidly, causing terrible accuracy.
This is a common known problem when switching from one to another. Clean that sucker out good. Go back to what worked.
Or at the very least, clean thoroughly when switching from one to another.
Yea I shoot 6.5cm and .375CT with solids. Never had an issue with either and both shoot lights out.
I’ve stripped it and shot it again(boretech copper and carbon remover). Still didn’t return to normal. Stripped it again and tried eldx’s and still wouldnt shoot.
Kind of strange, it was shooting .5 moa. Then all of a sudden stopped shooting. I will say load dev for it was an absolute bastard (see my previous posts in here). But seemed like I found a consistent performer. Then one day went back out and it was all over the place. It’s been into proof to check the barrel, it’s changed stocks, it’s had different powder, bullets, primers, switched scopes, tried different mounts, different bipods. Short of a new barrel and chamber job it’s almost a new gun, lol.
Proof had it shooting 3/4 moa with eldxs at their shop when they checked it. But I couldn’t replicate it. Might be time to chuck the barrel but I’m having a hard time coming to grips with that at the moment.
Also, I’m using SAC dies and a zero press with an fix-120i. I load 6 other calibers with all the same equipment so I’m pretty sure it ain’t my gear, haha.
I’ve stripped it and shot it again(boretech copper and carbon remover). Still didn’t return to normal. Stripped it again and tried eldx’s and still wouldnt shoot.
Kind of strange, it was shooting .5 moa. Then all of a sudden stopped shooting. I will say load dev for it was an absolute bastard (see my previous posts in here). But seemed like I found a consistent performer. Then one day went back out and it was all over the place. It’s been into proof to check the barrel, it’s changed stocks, it’s had different powder, bullets, primers, switched scopes, tried different mounts, different bipods. Short of a new barrel and chamber job it’s almost a new gun, lol.
Proof had it shooting 3/4 moa with eldxs at their shop when they checked it. But I couldn’t replicate it. Might be time to chuck the barrel but I’m having a hard time coming to grips with that at the moment.
Also, I’m using SAC dies and a zero press with an fix-120i. I load 6 other calibers with all the same equipment so I’m pretty sure it ain’t my gear, haha.
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