88 ELD-M in .223 Rem

[generalzip]

I see this bullet was marketed for the 224 Valk. However, I'm having a long throated 223 built in a 7 twist and hope to push this bullet to 2800-2850 with H4895 or Varget in a 26" barrel. Does anyone here have experience with this bullet in a 223? The BC of it puts it up there with a 105/108 class 6mm bullets. The ballistics should be similar to a 6BR with very little recoil, good barrel life, and throw away brass to ease reloading.

Would love to hear from people shooting their bullet and any concerns they would have with my proposed set-up. This will be used as a PRS training rifle and used at local matches to save barrel life and money and while still being a fairly competitive round out to 800-900.

 

[generalzip]

I also just found out the reamer my smith is using is a 223 Wylde which looks like it has a .062" freebore. This seems kind of short for the 88's. I'd imagine a .08-.09" freebore would work better. I plan to load to 2.5" COAL and would like the lands .02" off.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So, single feed in an AR or short action bolt gun? Really think you can get it going that fast? Seems like it would kill off the 223AI?

 

[generalzip]

Short action bolt gun. Sorry forgot that. And yes I'm pretty confident I can get it to 2800 at least with H4895 with the right freebore. Seems guys have no issue getting the 90's to 2780+

 

[spife7980]

I also just found out the reamer my smith is using is a 223 Wylde which looks like it has a .062" freebore. This seems kind of short for the 88's. I'd imagine a .08-.09" freebore would work better. I plan to load to 2.5" COAL and would like the lands .02" off.

I would want more than just a wylde myself. I want more than the .062 of my wylde and Im only running the 75s.

Not sure how the 88 stacks up to the sierra 90 (bearing length, ogive parabola etc could be vastly different) but if its anything like it lots of people say that you want a freebore of .169 for them smk. Thats well into hand feeding territory though. I think the .090-.110 would be a good middle ground length allowing mag feeding without shoving it too deep into the case but again, I dont know about the 88 specifically.

 

[generalzip]

Yea I'm trying to keep these at a COAL of 2.5" to enable feeding from MDT mags, while maximizing case capacity. Not sure what the ideal freebore would be to keep them around .01-.02" off the lands with with 2.5" COAL and 88's.

 

[generalzip]

I'm thinking I may have to give it to my local smith to use a uni-throater and lengthen the freebore to .11 or so.

 

[memilanuk]

There is a .223 Rem ISSF reamer out there with 0.169" freebore that is popular with some of the guys running Berger 90 VLDs out of a .223 Rem in F/TR matches... not sure how the 88 ELD-M matches up dimensionally to the Berger 90 though.

 

[padom]

I have both a 223 Wylde and 223 Rem Match 26" barrels for my TL3 here. I run 80 ELD'S .01 off the lands at 2.51" and feed from AI 223 mags.

I just got some 88's so I'll check later today what the distance to lands is for each chamber and post back.

 

[generalzip]

I have both a 223 Wylde and 223 Rem Match 26" barrels for my TL3 here. I run 80 ELD'S .01 off the lands at 2.51" and feed from AI 223 mags.

I just got some 88's so I'll check later today what the distance to lands is for each chamber and post back.

Great info. Is that 2.51" with the Wylde or Rem Match chamber? Gives me a little hope. Thanks for your help!

 

[padom]

Lands with 223 Wydle with a 80 are about 2.51 if I recall correctly. I'll verify everything here shortly. The 223 rem match is Greg's (Bugholes/Southern Precision) reamer that has a tighter neck diameter for less neck expansion and a little more freebore. It's an amazing chamber for 80's

 

[generalzip]

From my shitty math and research from 224 websites on factory ammo with the 88 ELD-M I've come up with this. Someone please feel free to correct me.

223:
Case length: 1.75" on new Wolf brass
88 ELD ogive to tip: .565" based on 224 Valk ammo COAL of 2.248 and base to ogive of 1.683

http://www.224valkyrieforum.com/for...bec3fef28c517f499bdb09068bd15a08&topic=119.15

Desired COAL= 2.5"
Desired jump= .02"

Base to Ogive(x)=Desired COAL-(ogive to tip length)
X=2.5-.565
=1.935

Mouth to ogive=base to ogive-case length
=1.935-1.75
=.185"

Freebore=mouth to ogive + desired jump (.02")
=.185 + .02
= .205" Freebore

This seems crazy long compared to all the reamer dimensions I've seen for a .223

 

[generalzip]

Padom, I'm curious what is the overall length difference between the 80 and 88? Might give a good indication of how much shorter I'll need to seat it.

For you 80 ELD is sounds like 2.49" puts you .02 off the lands. So if we find out the length difference between the two bullets it should be about

2.49-(length difference between 88 and 80 ELD)

assuming the tip length, shape, and boat-tail length are all the same between the two which is a reasonable assumption I think.

 

[skotydontno]

Im working on them in my 223 right now, had a nice node at 2608 but wanted a little more. Still working on it but 2760 looks promising. didn't start looking good until i was 35 thou off so no problems feeding from a mag

 

[generalzip]

Im working on them in my 223 right now, had a nice node at 2608 but wanted a little more. Still working on it but 2760 looks promising. didn't start looking good until i was 35 thou off so no problems feeding from a mag

What is your COAL at 35 thou off? Wylde reamer? That bullet must be seated deeeep

 

[padom]

Alright here's some info for you:

80 ELD-M's - 1.155" OAL / .608" Base to Ogive

.223 Wylde - 2.505" to Lands

.223 Rem Match - 2.515" to Lands


88 ELD-M's - 1.242" OAL / .680" Base to Ogive

.223 Wylde - 2.510" to Lands

.223 Rem Match - 2.520" to Lands

 

[generalzip]

Padom you’re the man. Thank you. So looks like it’s the same ogive with a longer body as suspected.

 

[generalzip]

Padom,

Have you shot any of the 88s? I’m curious what velocity you’re getting and if you find you can get enough powder in the case to get a high enough velocity to make the 88 worth it over the 80.

 

[Backspace]

Alright here's some info for you:

80 ELD-M's - 1.155" OAL / .608" Base to Ogive

.223 Wylde - 2.505" to Lands

.223 Rem Match - 2.515" to Lands


88 ELD-M's - 1.242" OAL / .680" Base to Ogive

.223 Wylde - 2.510" to Lands

.223 Rem Match - 2.520" to Lands

I may have missed it, but what freebore is your 223 rem match?

 

[memilanuk]

I may have missed it, but what freebore is your 223 rem match?

I was wondering that as well. But if'n I had to guess, I'd say about 10 thou longer than a Wylde, judging from the seating depths...

 

[padom]

The 223 Rem Match is a barrel Greg from Bugholes/Southern Precision sent to me for the prefit/shouldered review... It's a Mullerworks Cut Rifled 26" savage prefit Rem Varmint contour. Greg said the reamer he used is his own creation but very similar to a Rem Match. A little tighter neck and a little longer freebore to sling 80 AMAX's.. the neck only expands .003 from loaded neck diameter vs a 223 Wylde which the neck expands around .007 from loaded neck diameter.. its stamped .134 on the barrel.

It's an absolute tack driver of a barrel with everything. 77smk, 77TMK, 75 ELD and 80 Amax and ELD.

 

[Raufoss]

Padom, I'm curious what is the overall length difference between the 80 and 88? Might give a good indication of how much shorter I'll need to seat it.

For you 80 ELD is sounds like 2.49" puts you .02 off the lands. So if we find out the length difference between the two bullets it should be about

2.49-(length difference between 88 and 80 ELD)

assuming the tip length, shape, and boat-tail length are all the same between the two which is a reasonable assumption I think.

Actually no as I run a 223 match reamer with 0.190 freebore

It run 75 and 80 ELD-M perfectly so the 88 should be good too.

 

[memilanuk]

@padom something doesn't quite add up there...

If a Wylde normally has ~62 thou freebore (as described here) and your barrel has a 134 freebore... I don't see how there could be only 10 thou diff in seating depth? Assuming that' what the ".134" stands for?

 

[generalzip]

@padom something doesn't quite add up there...

If a Wylde normally has ~62 thou freebore (as described here) and your barrel has a 134 freebore... I don't see how there could be only 10 thou diff in seating depth? Assuming that' what the ".134" stands for?

I’m confused as well.

 

[padom]

@padom something doesn't quite add up there...

If a Wylde normally has ~62 thou freebore (as described here) and your barrel has a 134 freebore... I don't see how there could be only 10 thou diff in seating depth? Assuming that' what the ".134" stands for?

No clue. That's stamped on the barrel. I dont know if that's the freebore or not

Doesnt matter, the above numbers with the above bullets to lands are accurate

 

[memilanuk]

To be honest, the OALs seem like they line up more with a 134 freebore than the 62 freebore of a Wylde... even if that Wylde had a *lot* of rounds thru it.

Very weird

 

[padom]

To be honest, the OALs seem like they line up more with a 134 freebore than the 62 freebore of a Wylde... even if that Wylde had a *lot* of rounds thru it.

Very weird

The 223 Wylde has maybe 150rd on it. It's one of 3 223 wyldes I have here from 3 different companies and all measure pretty much exactly the same to the lands. This isnt me doing math, these are actual numbers

 

[generalzip]

So sounds like (assuming my Wylde is the same as yours) I should load to 2.49 to be .02" off.

A thing we are leading out is the lead angle. While his freebore may be more on another reamer, the lead angle could be anywhere from 3 degrees to 1-30. This affects where the lands hit as well.

 

[memilanuk]

Very true... but 1°30" (+/-) are pretty much the norm for most chambers that aren't specifically 'SAAMI', 'CIP' or 'NATO'.

Another thing that comes up from time to time is that what the print says and what the reamer actually cuts are not always the same. Some reamer manufacturers have a bit of a reputation for some glaring inconsistency.

It's all good discussion, though largely academic. As @padom said, it's what the actual measurements run that really matters... that and the target downrange. I still enjoy sleuthing out the how/why of things, though

 

[InkedIan]

Run them in my suppressed 22" 7 twist Krieger 223 wylde at 2839fps with 24grs H4895. Love them

 

[skotydontno]

Maybe it’s just me but I have had best luck setting them .035-040 off. My 140’s are the same way. Not the best group but it will work for my trainer.

 

[generalzip]

Does anyone use a 6.5 twist with these bullet to optimize BC? Or is a 7 twist better?id imagine you’re not going to blow up any billets at 223 velocities.

 

[Tunnuh]

Does anyone use a 6.5 twist with these bullet to optimize BC? Or is a 7 twist better?id imagine you’re not going to blow up any billets at 223 velocities.

Good question. I have a Remington 700 action with a .223 bolt face that needs some life added to it. I think the right barrel and the 88 ELD M would be great for practice and local matches.

 

[generalzip]

I ran the numbers and a 7 twist is more than adequate for 88 elds. You’d only need a 6.5 if you wanna run the really long bullets like the Berger 90’s

 

[PAYDIRT]

Would like to see more on this, or any info on the 85 RDF in a 223

 

[generalzip]

I'm having my .223 spun up now. I'll report back

Impact Action
30" Bartlein HP barrel 5/8-24, 7 twist
Impact 6mm Brake

Plan to run:
Wolf primed brass
88 ELD-M
24 grains H4895 (working up to this starting at 22.5 grains) hoping around 2800+ fps
2.53" COAL

 

[PAYDIRT]

Freebore?

 

[generalzip]

I’m giving a loaded dummy round with 88 at 2.54” and told him to throat it to be .01” off.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Basically what my smith asked for.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I also got better jumping the 88's 30 to 40.
Ran a jump test from touching to about 50.
Repeated 25 to 45.
I'm running a 28" 22 Nolser but jump for the 80's and 88 ELD seems to do better.
Medium load of IMR4350 for 2880.
Shot at 600yd but didn't win

 

[Rimfiremike]

Thanks for the info on better results jumping the 88's from 30 to 40.
I have been jumping ELD's in other calibers closer to 20 with good results, but will load up some of the 88's with a bit more jump to try out.

 

[FishDr]

@generalzip
Any updates on this project and running the 88s in a 223 Remington? I've had trouble with the 75 ELDs, but finally got some respectable groups today by running them "almost" touching. While at the range I tried some 88 ELD's... got nearly 2850 with Varget and H4895, and have a bit of room to go up further, but don't want to press my luck for a good load when the temperature climbs. Definitely shows promise tho.

Saw a recent vid on YouTube a fella took a 28" 223 Remington to 1000 with 24MOA up from a 100 yard zero using these same 88 ELDs ..... somebody check my math... that seems unreasonably extreme velocity....

 

[generalzip]

@generalzip
Any updates on this project and running the 88s in a 223 Remington? I've had trouble with the 75 ELDs, but finally got some respectable groups today by running them "almost" touching. While at the range I tried some 88 ELD's... got nearly 2850 with Varget and H4895, and have a bit of room to go up further, but don't want to press my luck for a good load when the temperature climbs. Definitely shows promise tho.

Saw a recent vid on YouTube a fella took a 28" 223 Remington to 1000 with 24MOA up from a 100 yard zero using these same 88 ELDs ..... somebody check my math... that seems unreasonably extreme velocity....

Apologize I’m kinda buzzed typing this but I’m running 24 grains in a wolf primed case at 2.54” at 2885 FPS and half inch groups. I’ve shot in at practice and club matches and it does very well. A mandrel die and chamfer debut does wonders for neck tension consistency and SD if you want a match like load

 

[Belisarius]

I played with some 85 rdf and 88 eld bullets. Good stuff!

 

[FishDr]

@Belisarius
Share the load details with us please. Good shootin !

 

[Belisarius]

thank you!
26.0 2000MR, LC brass, cci#400, col-2.425 85rdf and 2.540 88eld, both touching the lands.

 

[FishDr]

Excellent. Thanks.

 

[generalzip]

What’s your velocity? I’d imagine you have to seat a 88 so deep in an AR to mag feed it’s not worth the velocity penalty. In a bolt gun they just barely work if you have the freebore throated for it

 

[steve123]

He's probably single loading, you can hear the BCG drop.

 

[generalzip]

Yea I’d assume but then what’s the point of shooting a gas gun? Lol.