9mm vs. 300 bo subs; over penetration in home defence?

[Strikerkc]

Hey all.

Planning for a home defence AR pistol. I know 9mm with self defence rounds are considered pretty safe when it comes to not punching through exterior walls, and killing your neighbor; but how do sub sonic 300 blackout rounds compare in the same situation?

I'd love to use 300 bo, and throw a suppressor on, and not have to worry about flash-banging myself in such a stressful situation, but I'd also be willing to accept the zip of the 9mm through a suppressor, if it meant not depopulating my block.

I've looked at velocity and muzzle energy charts, and that wasn't making it clear enough for me.

 

[2ndamendfan]

For all intents purposes 300 BO subs are the same as 45 ACP rounds. Give or take just a bit. The issue is that currently 300 BO subs are all done with standard 30 cal bullets. A 220 grain 30 cal bullet was originally designed for 300 win mag velocities of 2800fps +. At 300 BO speeds of 1100 fps the jacket is so thick expansion is very poor.

I have 300 BO but have 9mm AR by my bed at night. 3, 32 rnd mags filled with Barnes HP.

Really wish someone would make thin jacket 220gr 30 cal for the 300 BO. Should be cheaper. There was talk of it a few years back. I think fear of someone loading them in 300mag(WM, norma, WSM, ETC...) put it to a stop

 

[smokin.338]

Waiting on this to be released: https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-190-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/

 

[hlee]

Loaded ammo is great, but I'd like to see the sub-x bullets released for handloaders...

 

[Headquarterz]

I would suggest outlaw state bullets for subsonic expansion in a bo.

 

[fdkay]

208 grain AMAX bullets open up pretty well, but in all reality the 110 grain VMAX loads works incredibly well at supersonic velocities and they will stay in the target.
There is really no reason to go sub-sonic for a defensive round. They are a niche load.

 

[stwcattle]

I been going back and forth on this topic for seems like 2 years and have just about decided to go with a 9mm SIG pistol.

 

[padom]

125 TMK supers expand like crazy. They are also what black hills uses in their 300bo defensive ammo. I find no real use for 300bo subs other than fun range plinking ammo.

 

[Headquarterz]

208 grain AMAX bullets open up pretty well, but in all reality the 110 grain VMAX loads works incredibly well at supersonic velocities and they will stay in the target.
There is really no reason to go sub-sonic for a defensive round. They are a niche load.

I am inclined to agree with the vmax supersonic statement. 110 grain Sierra varminter supers are about the most devistating bullets I've seen in a blackout.

 

[PBWalsh]

Why not just use a 5.56? Less penetration than a 9mm, cheaper than a 300BO, and can be quiet through a can.

Im curious on this as well though, as a pistol AR would be much easier than a 20” 12ga going through a house.

 

[Yondering]

208 grain AMAX bullets open up pretty well,

In a subsonic load? They really don't, unless you're shooting a pig in the skull or something like that.

Subsonic 300 Blk has got to be one of the absolute worst choices for the OP's scenario. If you're not using specialty bullets like Lehigh's 194 ME, you can expect miles of penetration and relatively little terminal effect. You'd be hard pressed to find another cartridge that penetrates more home building materials than subsonic 300 blk with typical heavy 30 cal bullets.

In contrast, the supersonic loads like the 110 mentioned above or various 125 gr bullets like the Nosler BT work really well, and if you're using a suppressor anyway the noise is pretty tolerable.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Why not just use a 5.56? Less penetration than a 9mm, cheaper than a 300BO, and can be quiet through a can.

Im curious on this as well though, as a pistol AR would be much easier than a 20” 12ga going through a house.

I call BS on the "less penetration than a 9mm" shot a lot of different materials with 223/556 and 9mm (along with a lot of other cartridges) and 9 has never outperformed 223/556. Your talking 1350ish ftlbs of energy vs 350.

2 sheets of 5/8" dry wall is not stopping either one.

 

[Spicerack]

I believe, but may be wrong, that the energy is indeed pretty close between the subsonic blackout and the 45 (230g at 850fps = 369ft*lb; 208g at 950 = 417ft*lb) <----- Theory ........ Reality-------> But..... Shot a subsonic 208g Hornady match bullet from a 9" barreled 300BO into some rough cut 2x8's nailed together last year. If I remember right it penetrated 8-10 boards so around 16-20 inches of penetration in dried pine as these were cut to 'real' 2 inches. The 45's usually stopped around 3 boards but would get as deep as 4 boards depending on the load and projectile. The 230g cast lead 45 would all stick in the 4th board so you could pry them out with your fingers. All recovered bullets had ZERO expansion since no 'wet' impact happened. Both were fired at a distance of about 15 yards. My best guess on the massive real world penetration difference is the shape of the bullet having a much smaller frontal area and the 'slippery' shape. So take that as you may, it is simply an observation.

And based on that observation, I would be compelled to find a 45ACP upper to suppress. It would be somewhat neighbor friendly, subsonic, soft shooting, and very quiet.

Semper Fidelis,
Aaron

 

[Bigjake83]

Why not just use a 5.56? Less penetration than a 9mm, cheaper than a 300BO, and can be quiet through a can.

Im curious on this as well though, as a pistol AR would be much easier than a 20” 12ga going through a house.

Why not just use a 5.56? Less penetration than a 9mm, cheaper than a 300BO, and can be quiet through a can.

Im curious on this as well though, as a pistol AR would be much easier than a 20” 12ga going through a house.

You're an Idiot.......

 

[fdkay]

I call BS on the "less penetration than a 9mm" shot a lot of different materials with 223/556 and 9mm (along with a lot of other cartridges) and 9 has never outperformed 223/556. Your talking 1350ish ftlbs of energy vs 350.

2 sheets of 5/8" dry wall is not stopping either one.

Ft lbs of energy has nothing to do with penetration.
The 5.56/.223 is a high velocity, lightweight projectile weapon.
Most bullets will begin fragmenting as soon as they come in contact with a hard surface.
This is why the 5.56/.223 SUCKS through intermediate barriers, especially automotive glass.
There are plenty of tests that reflect the 9mm having more penetration on wallboard etc... as compared to the 5.56.
That is ONE of the reasons most tact teams run AR platforms (along with the aforementioned tremendous increase in energy).

 

[PBWalsh]

You're an Idiot.......

I’m curious to this comment. It is well documented that a fast round from a 5.56, such as a Hornady V-Max, not a FMJ, will penetrate less material than a similar 9mm projectile due to fragmentation at high velocity.

Cost per round is cheaper than a 300 BO, anyone can see that. This allows you to train more with your rifle, which is a neccessity, especially for this application.

As far as sound goes? I’m guessing there as I do not yet own a suppressor.

The 12ga. comment was in reference to my current defensive firearm. I want to understand more about these three cartidges from a pistol AR to see if it’s worth me changing HD weapons to best suit my needs.

You may call me an idiot, but next time, please clarify your statement with data so we may all learn and be better off.

 

[Strikerkc]

... 300BO into some rough cut 2x8's nailed together last year. If I remember right it penetrated 8-10 boards so around 16-20 inches of penetration in dried pine as these were cut to 'real' 2 inches. The 45's usually stopped around 3 boards but would get as deep as 4 boards depending on the load and projectile. The 230g cast lead 45 would all stick in the 4th board so you could pry them out with your fingers ... And based on that observation, I would be compelled to find a 45ACP upper to suppress. It would be somewhat neighbor friendly, subsonic, soft shooting, and very quiet...

The .45 you shot was a lead ball, right, not some sort of lead hollow point?

It's sounding like 9mm or .45 is best for my application. I know 9mm is made in "self defence" rounds that SUPPOSEDLY cause expansion to start ASAP (like Horniday Critical Defense).

On the subject of .45, that's news to me that there are AR uppers in that caliber. Welcome news, but news none the lesd.

 

[Spicerack]

Most of the 45 ammo we shot was lead ball. However, even the hollow points, no matter the caliber - .380, .38, .357, .40, .45, .44mag, .460, .500S&W show NO expansion in the wood. From my understanding, the target HAS to be 'wet' for expansion to occur. Most look good enough to tempt one to try and reloading the bullet after recovery even the soft un-jacketed cast lead, unless it was smashed into by a follow up bullet. The 208g match bullets form the blackout had some minor deformity in the front 1/3 of the bullet by the hollow point where the jacket had no support from lead inside it. The point is that the penetration with any caliber through wood is a lot more than I would have thought, so just don't miss the bad guy in your house.

I don't know a whole lot about the 45 AR except that they are out in the wild: https://maconarmory.com/ for one example (no affiliation, just the first thing that popped up on a google search).

If you do go with 300BO, I second the very high end boutique ammo for self defense since they come in a variety of frangibility, penetration, max expansion --- please note that I have not tried any of that stuff since it is too rich for my blood. Not sure how they would do through housing building materials though. Prob worth emailing the manufacturer for peace of mind if that course of action is followed. I shoot an Omega on my 9" BO and it is very quiet and pleasant to shoot with subs, nice little plinker, and handy as a brush gun for stalking deer (with 110g Barnes supersonic).

 

[2ndamendfan]

quarter circle 10 specializes in PCC ARs that use glock mags

 

[wfjames22]

Speaking of 45acp ar’s, I’m going to grab one of these up sooner than later. Most likely in the 8” barreled “pistol” version to form 1 later and add a real stock, possibly.

https://www.cmmginc.com/product-category/rifles/45-acp/

 

[Potss]

Both 9mm and .300blk subs will overpenetrate like crazy, and offer sub par to terrible terminal performance. An 11.5in 5.56 SBR will offer 3-5x the terminal performance, and significantly less overenetration with loads like the 55gr Hornady Tap Urban or anything using the 55gr or 60gr Vmax bullets. Even the 77gr TMK is pretty good at stopping in drywall.

To address your concern about "flash banging" yourself, a properly built 11.5in SBR in 5.56 using a good suppressor like the Q Trash Panda or SiCo Omega will be <140db to the shooter and hide the flash. Add a Superlative Arms AGB, Armageddon Tactical GMS-15 charging handle, and if you really want to go all out an LMT Enhanced bolt carrier to completely minimize gas and noise to the shooter. You will not be able to tell the difference between this setup and a .300blk setup using subs indoors under stress. Neither will claim your situational awareness. Stick with the better setup, the 5.56.

 

[RaccoonRanger474]

I second what Potss said. You would be better off with a 110gr loading at full speed using the .300blk if overpenetration is your chief concern, but almost any 5.56 would be even better than that. The only thing that I would give the .300blk an edge on is gas efficiency out of a short barrel.
What sort of living arrangement do you have? Urban, rural? What type of house and how many occupants?

 

[smokin.338]

Speaking of 45acp ar’s, I’m going to grab one of these up sooner than later. Most likely in the 8” barreled “pistol” version to form 1 later and add a real stock, possibly.

https://www.cmmginc.com/product-category/rifles/45-acp/

Definitely fun especially suppressed... but you could build one for about half the price though.

 

[JeremiahCarlson]

that was great!

 

[stwcattle]

Speaking of 45acp ar’s, I’m going to grab one of these up sooner than later. Most likely in the 8” barreled “pistol” version to form 1 later and add a real stock, possibly.

https://www.cmmginc.com/product-category/rifles/45-acp/

I like the looks of that 45ACP pistol.
Thanks for posting

 

[mdmp5]

I actually have a little experience with 300 BLK penetration. I recently tested subs with Sierra 220 RN. One shot went through 2 4x4s, then through a wall comprised of 2 layers of sheetrock. The bullet was lying on my kitchen floor almost entirely unscathed

 

[fdkay]

I second what Potss said. You would be better off with a 110gr loading at full speed using the .300blk if overpenetration is your chief concern, but almost any 5.56 would be even better than that. The only thing that I would give the .300blk an edge on is gas efficiency out of a short barrel.
What sort of living arrangement do you have? Urban, rural? What type of house and how many occupants?

The 5.56 loses about 400 fps going from a 20" to an 11.5 inch barrel, this is almost across the board for nearly all bullet weights.
The .300 blk is more efficient and has substantially more ft lbs of energy within typical engagement distances.

Pg 28 of the linked file gives you an idea of energy. of course, they chose the 55 grain to maximize the disparity, but all short barrel 5.56 ballistics SUCK. Keep in mind, they are trying to sell .300 Blk, but when short barrels are involved, it is one of the best options there is.
http://www.300blackoutarrifle.com/uploads/1/2/7/1/12718820/300-blk.pdf

 

[RaccoonRanger474]

The 5.56 loses about 400 fps going from a 20" to an 11.5 inch barrel, this is almost across the board for nearly all bullet weights.
The .300 blk is more efficient and has substantially more ft lbs of energy within typical engagement distances.

Pg 28 of the linked file gives you an idea of energy. of course, they chose the 55 grain to maximize the disparity, but all short barrel 5.56 ballistics SUCK. Keep in mind, they are trying to sell .300 Blk, but when short barrels are involved, it is one of the best options there is.
http://www.300blackoutarrifle.com/uploads/1/2/7/1/12718820/300-blk.pdf

No doubt, .300blk is much more ideal in overall performance/efficiency out of a short barrel. Where the 5.56 is better though is in the overpenetration concerns that OP has.
Muzzle blast from 5.56 out of anything 11.5” or shorter is punishing, even with cartridges tailored for it. If I was using an SBR/Pistol AR I’d definitely lean over to .300blk. I’ve had fun running suppresed Mk18 style SBRs, but if you took away the suppressor, they become kinda crappy.

 

[softcock]

I actually have a little experience with 300 BLK penetration. I recently tested subs with Sierra 220 RN. One shot went through 2 4x4s, then through a wall comprised of 2 layers of sheetrock. The bullet was lying on my kitchen floor almost entirely unscathed

-
In my testing ( Subs's ) I shot the same bullets you tested, but shooting ( 50 yrds. ) through a 4" thick Fir header, set in front of a steel plate . The 220 RN's went right through the wood with jacket intact . hit the plate and leave the jacket in full laying on the ground looking like a nicely pealed banana skin .

If you just want to run suppressed heavies . Don't use copper jackets . How about just shooting the 208 grn. lead with vynal coated bullets . I shot those a lot out of Shorty suppressed blk, and they run great . the full vinyl coat jackets are there just to stop any lead fouling and lead dust in the Can .
.

 

[MarkCO]

I've done a bit of comparison testing between .223, 9mm, 300BO and 10mm from AR platforms in terms of terminal performance, suppressed and unsuppressed, super and sub-sonic. There are a lot of variables (noise, penetration, distance) that relate to shootability and others that relate to on target performance. Not right or wrong to give more value to one variable over another based on each person's environment of intended use and skill, etc.

Unless you get very expensive 300BO bullets, their subsonic terminal performance is marginal at best. If you are not running suppressed, any of them are going to be unpleasant inside, some will just do a bit more damage to your hearing. Staying subsonic, the pistol calibers certainly perform better than the 300BO in terms of terminal performance. I have some 158 JHPs that I resized to .355 and run at 1080 fps. The terminal performance is very good as is accuracy and through both of our suppressed Glock fed AR9s would be my first choice. But no one makes that bullet and resizing and loading is more than some want to do. The 10mm just does really well against everything else in the space when you consider the total package...but again, not a mainline you can go buy. Suppressing a .223 is still the best solution IMHO. After that, I would go to a 9mm if you delete the suppressor.

 

[Potss]

Kenetic energy concerns for 11.5in 5.56 are totally unfounded. You loose 100-300ft/lbs over the .300blk supers sure, but it is still way above what subs and pistols rounds give you. The 11.5in 5.56 retains rifle wounding terminal ballistics, and as already mentioned has access to far better projectile selection for everything, avoiding overpenetration included (as already outlined). So the trade for slightly lower KE but much better bullet selection is more than worth it in 5.56.

Beside if you want to maximize KE/round from SBRs there are way better calibers than .300blk, including 6.8SPC which has 100-300ft/lbs more energy than .300blk from barrels are short as 7in. And if you reload there are better options still. Again, the .300blk niche is very small and doesn't generally include HD, there are simply better options.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Anybody running some of the new badass Lehigh rounds? I think it's extreme devastator and they also have extreme penetrater.. M1 Carbine loaded up with some of those would make for a nasty little fairly inexpensive carbine that's supremely easy to shoot as well as perfectly sized for a wife/girlfriend or daughter, etc..

 

[fdkay]

Kenetic energy concerns for 11.5in 5.56 are totally unfounded. You loose 100-300ft/lbs over the .300blk supers sure, but it is still way above what subs and pistols rounds give you. The 11.5in 5.56 retains rifle wounding terminal ballistics, and as already mentioned has access to far better projectile selection for everything, avoiding overpenetration included (as already outlined). So the trade for slightly lower KE but much better bullet selection is more than worth it in 5.56.

Beside if you want to maximize KE/round from SBRs there are way better calibers than .300blk, including 6.8SPC which has 100-300ft/lbs more energy than .300blk from barrels are short as 7in. And if you reload there are better options still. Again, the .300blk niche is very small and doesn't generally include HD, there are simply better options.

I didn't really address the 5.56 issue as the OP was asking about the .300.
I did, however, bring up some factors to consider.
Yes the .300 is a niche cartridge, but it fills that niche extremely well and is superlative at the job.
There are plenty of 110-125 grain polymer tipped loads to use and plenty of 110-125 bullets from various manufacturers to pick from.
The point, in regards to kinetic energy is the fact that the .300 does, indeed, surpass the 5.56 without requiring a different bolt face or specialty magazines.
If you want to delve into a KE discussion, why stop at the 6.8? Why not the .458 SOCOM?
I am not emotionally invested in any cartridge. When talking SBR's it makes sense to consider a cartridge that was designed, from the ground up, around a 10" barrel.
Gaining 300 ft/lbs of energy is not inconsequential, along with a reduction in blast and flash from powder burning outside the barrel.
That said, an 11.5 inch 5.56 with the proper load is a good choice, but still a compromise.

 

[Potss]

fdkay I agree with your conclusion that 5.56 is a good choice and a compromise. But I think you need to read my post a bit more closely, I say "a cartridge LIKE the 6.8spc" and "if you reload there are even better options." My point is both that there are many better calibers, AND that if KE is a priority then the .300blk isn't where you should be looking. The niche the .300blk fills is that you can run both subs and supers from the same platform with relative ease, which for some very niche operator types and/or people who like to have fun at the range is worth it. Outside of that there are simply better cartridges to choose, including for HD. That doesn't mean the .300blk would suck at it (well it does suck at not overpenetrating, but I'm just talking wounding here), but neither would a 30-30 for that matter. When building from the ground up, sub-optimal is never the right call.

 

[fdkay]

Again, NO ONE has said KE was the yard stick.
You keep harping on that. But since you want to, the .300 has more KE than the 5.56, end of story. It works better out of short barrels.
It uses the same bolt, the same magazines.
It is NOT the be all, end all. You DO have to be careful of bullet selection.
Please list this vast number of AR15 cartridges that perform BETTER out of an 8-10" barrel WITHOUT creating a large flash signature and resultant increase in concussive noise while maintaining a very low recoil level AND without adding stress to the already operating on the fringe, bolt face.

Look, I'm not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. The cool thing is, neither one of us is wrong.
I prefer my SBR's in .300 blk. You know what they say, once you go blk, you never go back.

Anyway, this cat tested several .300 blk loads, from an 8.5" pistol. The 110 vmax penetrated 17 inches, which is right along with other folks findings.
It came apart and the heaviest chunk was around 65 grains. Excellent performance at HD ranges.
https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/...erent-300-blackout-loads-terminal-ballistics/

 

[Potss]

Again fdkay, you really need to work on your reading comprehension. I said "IF KE is a priority." Emphasis added. If. Also, when we are talking about penetration we are talking about drywall penetration, not terminal performance on meat. Again, obvious from my first post.

In addition, you've forgotten one other key component, which is that all of these are assumed to be suppressed, and if using a quality suppressor for the given caliber none will be louder or flashier than any of the others. So your point is entirely moot. What you trade for more KE is more recoil, but generally on a properly tuned AR the difference will be minimal unless stepping up to something like the .458 Socom you mentioned or a .358 WSSM.

Regardless we agree on the conclusion, just spend more time reading my posts before replying.

 

[fdkay]

There are two ways to interpret "if".
As a question or a declarative statement.
You continued to posture "if" in a manner that seemed a declarative statement.
So, "if" KE is a concern, the .300 blk still trumps the 5.56.
Maybe it is you that needs to consider how things are written?
Or, we can agree that we have carried this on far to long.
"If" that is okay with you.
Regardless, good discussion.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I just saw a review on the new Ruger PC Carbine, a 9mm pistol caliber carbine that employs replaceable magazine wells allowing Ruger handgun magazines, Glock magazine, and also has a one devoted to the Ruger American Pistol magazines. It has a push button/twist take-down that is slick and reliable. Accuracy with several brands of 9mm handgun ammunition is good enough that a telescopic sight makes good sense. It uses a spacer LOP adjustment feature which finally makes such things a pleasure for me and my 6 1/2ft frame.

I have the Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro, and being able to use the mags interchangeable, with good performance in either platform from a single type of ammo makes the Handgun/Carbine combo desirable for me for the first time.

Negatives, It's fugly. Fugly was never an issue for me; fugly is as fugly does, and if the reports on this carbine's performance continue to hold up, it's not so fugly at all.

The 9mm has been an industry leading HD chambering for scores and scores of years. It is a foremost utility handgun chambering. If 9mm overpenetration were such a key detriment, I think we'd be hearing a lot more about it than I'm hearing. Anything that is HD effective can overpenetrate. With respect as due, the market supports the 9mm far more than either the .223 or 300BO for HD. There is a lot to be said about Hollowpoint ammunition being a hedge against overpenetration, and that's what I'd be preferring for HD at my place.

It's interesting to see the BO being compared to the 45. I have no intention of disputing that. But the 9mm can be a lot like that 45 at HD distances. Consider the 230gr 45ACP projectile moving subsonic, and the 115gr 9mm projectile going twice as fast. Is there really such a huge difference in terminal energy between the two?

I'm going with the crowd on this one, and in fact, have been doing so for the past several years. A handgun is like a condom, better to have and not need than to need and not have.

More importantly, having it is just the first step, having it along with an effective Combat/HD skill set is the true necessity. My range club runs 2-gun Pistol/Carbine Combat shoots every month. With the Ruger PC and the Ruger American Pistol 9, I can equip myself to tap that resource.

Greg

 

[Primus]

For a hd gun, use supers...zero reason to use a pussy fart round in a no shit defensive situation.

If ur going to move up in size, why not just use .223, 6.5g or 6.8. All will be much better man stoppers and more versatile.

 

[Yondering]

He is actually 100% right, you are the missinformed one. Perhaps educate yourself before running your face

About the 208 Amax opening up? Show me proof. I've never seen them open up at all, except on a direct hit with bone.
I do agree about the rest of it, and don't know what bigjake was referring to.

 

[PBWalsh]

Bigjake was referring to my post about 556 penetrating less interior structures than 9mm/300BO, yet being more potent than 9mm.

 

[Bigjake83]

Bigjake was referring to my post about 556 penetrating less interior structures than 9mm/300BO, yet being more potent than 9mm.

Yes I Was... I Would definitely go to your buddies house who has lots is junk to shoot, (we all have one don't deny it) for some real world education.

 

[Strikerkc]

So, some follow up tailoring of the question.

House is brick facade exterior. Single occupant, so I don't need to worry about people IN the house, just the next house over.

From the looks of things, purpose made subsonics of any sort don't make sense in the situation. But regardless I'd still be looking to put a can on the sbr/pistol to help with light, and whatever noise I can. At that point, it sounds like they all perform about as good/bad, depending on how you look at it, at supersonic speeds, out of an sbr, through a can. making me lean towards 5.56 expanding tip, or a powerful self defense 9mm round. leaning more towards a 5.56, since it sounds to have about the same penetration as the 9mm when they're both at super sonic speeds, but is carrying more hurt to the target.

seem like a pretty sound wrap up of comments, or did I miss something?

 

[fdkay]

I have NEVER seen an indication of a 5.56 shooting polymer or expanding tip bullet that will penetrate as deeply as a 9mm, even the majority of the 9mm expanding bullets (frangibles not included) (which is a good thing for your stated purpose)
Do a search for the hornady LE ammo tests. It will include all of their loads. They no longer show the info for the .300 blk with the vmax, as they changed the bullet to the 110 gmx for intermediate barrier penetration. It does, however, show the penetration of their 9mm, 5.56 amd .223 loads through the entire FBI protocol. (it has the data for all of their LE loads).
I would always encourage a rifle round, yes, running a can becomes mandatory (not so much with a pistol caliber carbine), but, as pointed out earlier, you are talking a difference of 390 ft lbs and around 1100 out of a 11.5" 5.56. That is a massive difference.

 

[Primus]

So, some follow up tailoring of the question.

House is brick facade exterior. Single occupant, so I don't need to worry about people IN the house, just the next house over.

From the looks of things, purpose made subsonics of any sort don't make sense in the situation. But regardless I'd still be looking to put a can on the sbr/pistol to help with light, and whatever noise I can. At that point, it sounds like they all perform about as good/bad, depending on how you look at it, at supersonic speeds, out of an sbr, through a can. making me lean towards 5.56 expanding tip, or a powerful self defense 9mm round. leaning more towards a 5.56, since it sounds to have about the same penetration as the 9mm when they're both at super sonic speeds, but is carrying more hurt to the target.

seem like a pretty sound wrap up of comments, or did I miss something?

You are correct. Subsonics make zero sense in a defensive situation. Furthermore, pistol rounds are and always will be inferior to rifle rounds. That is just the reality of it. Build a 5.56 SBR or something in 6.5G/6.8SPC if you want something exotic with more energy on target.

Little autistc jake fails to understand that most 5.56 rounds (M193/M885/similar) are going to fragment at close range. Pretty much any round at that distance is going to fuck shit up and most likely result in death. Not many people survive a spray of rifle rounds to upper center mass and live long to tell about it. Even the WORST 5.56 round is magnitudes better then the best performing pistol rounds on the market. Not that overpennetration should even be high on your list anyway. Its about the 97th on my priority list in choosing a weapon. Win the fight, win it fast and use the tools that give you the best chance to do that. Everything else is secondary,

Pistol cal subguns and ARs are hell of alot of fun to shoot and everyone loves the nostalgia, but they are piss poor weapons in a gunfight (hence why they sit in the armory for units that actually plan to go into a gunfight).

If you are still working on the build, I suggest looking at 11.5-12.5" guns. Its the sweet spot for the platform. Any of the 60-70 grain bonded soft points are incredibly effective on unarmored targets under a few hundred yards. Its what HRT and other federal tac teams use and lots of hunters drop deer with them every year. Very good little rounds.

 

[gnfiter3]

Again, NO ONE has said KE was the yard stick.
You keep harping on that. But since you want to, the .300 has more KE than the 5.56, end of story. It works better out of short barrels.
It uses the same bolt, the same magazines.
It is NOT the be all, end all. You DO have to be careful of bullet selection.
Please list this vast number of AR15 cartridges that perform BETTER out of an 8-10" barrel WITHOUT creating a large flash signature and resultant increase in concussive noise while maintaining a very low recoil level AND without adding stress to the already operating on the fringe, bolt face.

Look, I'm not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. The cool thing is, neither one of us is wrong.
I prefer my SBR's in .300 blk. You know what they say, once you go blk, you never go back.

Anyway, this cat tested several .300 blk loads, from an 8.5" pistol. The 110 vmax penetrated 17 inches, which is right along with other folks findings.
It came apart and the heaviest chunk was around 65 grains. Excellent performance at HD ranges.
https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/...erent-300-blackout-loads-terminal-ballistics/

Been away from this site for a long time. Forgot what I was missing. Very interesting reading!!

Never thought much about the 300 Blk, but a shooting buddy sold me his upper for the right price. Later, a few months ago, I got the bug for an AR Pistol, and the 300 Blk seemed to be the best option. I've been reloading since the late 70's, so ammo wasn't an issue. The 300 Blk press made it seem like the ideal HD, AR platform, so here I am.

Having invested in two 300's, and having 223 AR's, it's about the projectile for HD in the 300 Blk. Primarily use Sierra 110 and 125's for the range. Reading the press, 300 Blk 220 subs are like 45 ACP with a 30 rd mag. This thread makes me believe, all I need is my 110 Sierras, and my Form 1 can. Anything more, is just for fun.

 

[1911addict42]

Hey guys,
Been looking around for some good HD ammo for my .300 and came upon this old thread.

Are there any new products that have been released since this discussion? I’ve seen mention of Hornady’s 190, which are and I think Gorilla may have some good subsonic Home Defense stuff now?
There’s a lot of information here, and hoping to gain some clarity to make an informed decision.

(Not concerned with price , since for home Defense I’d load a few mags with the best stuff and train with cheap ammo.)

 

[fdkay]

Hey guys,
Been looking around for some good HD ammo for my .300 and came upon this old thread.

Are there any new products that have been released since this discussion? I’ve seen mention of Hornady’s 190, which are and I think Gorilla may have some good subsonic Home Defense stuff now?
There’s a lot of information here, and hoping to gain some clarity to make an informed decision.

(Not concerned with price , since for home Defense I’d load a few mags with the best stuff and train with cheap ammo.)

Look at commercial ammo loaded with the 125 SST, 110 grain varmint bullets and, if you can find it, the 110 grain Barnes bullet

 

[MadDuner]

I just stuck with 147gr defensive 9mm, suppressed.
Most likely won’t over penetrate, and it won’t flash bang me.
Easy.