A different sort of query for you guys....

[Phezzik]

Well maybe not so different, considering this type of question has been asked before, even if not directly on this topic. So I have come to a fork in the road in my life. I'm about to turn 30 next month (I know, still a kid, but bear with me), and I have a decision to make. However, I am having difficulty swinging one way or the other, so I put forth this question to the more "seasoned" members of the hide for input and opinion. SO anyways I need to decide what I'm going to do: go back to school and earn a bachelors, go to another trade school, or tough it out in the "field". I have an Associates in Gunsmithing, and while it has been my dream to work on guns and get paid for it (I even got to live that dream for a little while), the gunsmithing field hasn't been good to me lately. After I got laid off from my old job I've bounced around trying a couple different things, but nothing has shown long term promise. I decided to look at going back to school and this is what I narrowed it down to:

Go back to another trade school and learn advanced machining and metallurgy, at least more advanced than what I learned at CST. I love the machining aspect of gunsmithing, and creating something out of nothing, and I love working with my hands. This works out two fold because it gets me trained and out into the field quicker than a 4 year degree (and from the research I've done machinist do alright hourly), and down the road once my wife finishes school, I'll have a stronger foundation for opening up my own gunsmithing shop. But that is going to be a ways off, as she is going for her doctoral in nursing or some such (I say some such because she can't decide what her specialty is going to be). Plus, CNC is the future of gunsmithing and I don't know dick about CNC's.

The second option is to go to start from scratch and go back to school for a Bachelors in Computer Sciences with and emphasis in Cyber Security. I know, these seem like polar opposites. Although I was raised hunting, fishing, ect ect, when I was in high school I really got into computers and did a little web design and programming. Nothing fancy, just some DOS based math testing programs for the elementary school, and I had just scratched the surface on C++ when I graduated. While I never really got into the programming like other people, I enjoyed the challenge, and since recent cyber attacks have affected me personally (Target, PSN, keylogging virus that destroyed my last laptop), I have taken an interest in Cyber Security/Information Security (depending on who you ask). One thing that really appeals to me about this option is job security (no pun intended), as it is one of the fastest growing IT fields in the US, and everyone from small companies to the Government are looking for IT Security guys. Not to mention the money is verrry good, better than I'd ever come close to as a machinist any time soon.

Option three: suck in up and stay in the work force until I break back into firearms. Got make sure the wifey finishes school too.

I'm more or less just wondering if it's worth going back to school. I know that ultimately this is my decision as I am the one putting forth the money and effort to go back to school, but I need some third party perspective. Thanks in advance.

 

[QuickNDirty]

First off... 30 years old is not a fucking kid. If you're 30 years old and act like a kid, you fucked up.

I'm almost 30. My interests are similar to yours. I stuck with programming, though. Shit got real when my brother died, I took on this new gig, bought a house, and got married in the span of 3 months (planning and ALL of that shit, I got lucky, though. It was only 35k said and done).

It's 1AM and I'm an hour away from my bed, load testing a new product which will make a lot of money.

All I do is backend shit in the telephony world. I knew nothing about telephony before I started working with it, but now I'm watching a single one of my servers exert complete data awareness on more than 2000 simultaneous calls with hundreds more being generated every second. The shit is nuts. I don't *really* know how I got here. All I know is I busted my fucking ass all day long, all night long, for a long time, and here I am. Shit's good. The single server part is my favorite. Cloud computing, dude. I'd never use it for my own shit, but when you absolutely positively 100% no fucking doubt about gotta handle some SHIT, it's really nice to be able to spin up 100-1000 bad fucking machines in under 5 seconds, let them do their thing, and then kill them all in under 5 seconds. Unbelievably cool shit.

BTW, nothing I've had in life is quite as nice as a happy wife. That shit is amazing. I highly recommend it.

Man the fuck up, stick to what you know, follow your gut, and for fucks sake stay out of the security world. If you're not wanted (in the criminal sense) by various international alphabet soup agencies, you're not going to get anywhere, and if you were, and you did, it would fucking suck. DEFINITELY don't go to college for that.

If I were you, and I already had paid experience machining shit and fucking with guns, I'd start learning a lot of shit about how to drive CNC machines (plasma cutters, mills, lathes, and so on).

There aren't just a whole hundred and ten million people who can do that shit, and G and fanuc are not that fucking complicated.
If you have to get hands-on, there are a plethora of entry-level CNC mills that run less than 5k and consume no more space than a decent reloading bench. Get one.


This concludes my coffee/fatigue-fueled supposed-to-be-inspirational lecture on how shit could possibly but might not work out.

YMMV

Golden rule: If it doesn't hurt, it doesn't help, unless you're a guru who's suffered through so much shit nothing hurts anymore. I'm not there yet, but I still do well.


ETA: I didn't like college so I stopped going. Best decision I ever made.









ETAA: 4:45am. got home an hour ago, drank a beer and finished preparing 100 45colt cases for loading tomorrow. tests went well. gunna be a fun weekend. servicing the wife friday afternoon, nacogdoches in the evening, paintball all night friday/sat morning, shooting the piss out of my henry big boy, making sure my deer loads for the 308 are ok, helping my buddy load for his 30-06, cooking, relaxing.. life is good. tomorrow starts in 4 hours. Get your shit done, OP. It's what men do.

 

[Maggot]

"who's suffered through so much shit nothing hurts anymore."

So thats my problem. Thanks for clearing it up.

My advice. Throw away all your papers, birth cert., SS card, DL, etc. Get a really good tan, go to Mexico, sneak back in, get caught, get welfare, free housing, food stamps and have a great life living off the fat of those who work.

Just a thought.

 

[proneshooter]

From someone who is in the mfg industry, we are always hurting for CNC machinists who know their shit. Go to trade school and learn how to CNC machine. Also, learn the theory of balancing rotating assemblies (fewer and fewer people know how to do that these days) and how to setup and run CNC grinders.

Fuck going into debt to learn cybersecurity.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Unless it is learning something that doesn't change in time ( like basic engineering/math STEM type stuff, etc) by the time they get around to teaching it in school, it's out of use in general industry. The CNC world is dying for more good programmers and machinists, they are NOT the same, there are plenty of "operator" type people out there already.

Most of the best CNC guys I ever worked with, taught themselves. The BEST guy, was a very competent manual machinist, had a great 3 man business. He sold all of his manual machines, bought a handful of Haas machines, and decided that the only way he would learn, was to force himself to solve all his machining problems, with the new CNC stuff. He has been quite successful in the 15 years since then, not without some bumps, but very successful.

Again, your opinions may vary, but I would not go to school, unless I was learning something that was a foundation for much bigger things. School ought to be a springboard to major results, rather than a end result in and of itself. I think that it the problem with a lot of "degreed" people these days - I have a degree in so and so, so I deserve a job doing such and such. No you don't. You deserve a job making your employer money/value, in exchange for which you receive money/value. If your degree didn't provide the knowledge or skills that bring value to the marketplace, then you don't deserve to be paid for it. It is that simple, unfortunately most people don't get that message at an early enough age - everyone is a winner right? Not in the real world though, so sorry.

 

[c1steve]

You might start by learning some of the basics of CAD/CAM in school, then get a job in a shop and apply what you have learned. The school would be a start, but as some say, if in school for 4 years your knowledge might be out of date by the time you graduate.

There is a huge shortage of competent CNC programmers, you could work anywhere once you have the skills.

 

[kraigWY]

I vote for the Trade School (Machinist) route. It would help to keep you in touch with your gunsmithing desires. From your post you seem to be a "hands on" guy which says machinist over programmer.

You'll never have problems finding a job as a machinist and you can do the gunsmithing part on the side, maybe even venturing to your own full time shop.

Just my opinion for what its worth.

 

[TNT]

My idea would be machinist school, definitely cnc. Then go find a nuke mfg'er like Westinghouse or B & and make good coin. Note, you cannot f up on anything you work on though.

 

[proneshooter]

Unless it is learning something that doesn't change in time ( like basic engineering/math STEM type stuff, etc) by the time they get around to teaching it in school, it's out of use in general industry. The CNC world is dying for more good programmers and machinists, they are NOT the same, there are plenty of "operator" type people out there already.

Most of the best CNC guys I ever worked with, taught themselves. The BEST guy, was a very competent manual machinist, had a great 3 man business. He sold all of his manual machines, bought a handful of Haas machines, and decided that the only way he would learn, was to force himself to solve all his machining problems, with the new CNC stuff. He has been quite successful in the 15 years since then, not without some bumps, but very successful.

Again, your opinions may vary, but I would not go to school, unless I was learning something that was a foundation for much bigger things. School ought to be a springboard to major results, rather than a end result in and of itself. I think that it the problem with a lot of "degreed" people these days - I have a degree in so and so, so I deserve a job doing such and such. No you don't. You deserve a job making your employer money/value, in exchange for which you receive money/value. If your degree didn't provide the knowledge or skills that bring value to the marketplace, then you don't deserve to be paid for it. It is that simple, unfortunately most people don't get that message at an early enough age - everyone is a winner right? Not in the real world though, so sorry.

I AM in the real world and will tell you straight up that we won't hire a guy who only knows manual machining to teach him to program/run CNC lathes/VMCs/HMC/s/grinders OTJ.

You either need to already be capable or at least have some verifiable technical education (so we know you can do something on day 1).

 

[QuickNDirty]

proneshooter,

what is verifiable technical education?

 

[High Binder]

Go back to another trade school and learn advanced machining and metallurgy,

I worked as a machinist for years while I was getting my ME degree. You will never have a problem finding a job as a CNC/PLC/Manual Machinist. It is an extremely sought after skill set in my half of the US. You can literally get $30/hr if you have some experience and can run programs like Mastercam and the like.

Modern machining centers are pretty clean and easy to run. You can demand even more if you can code in G-Code and/or IL.

 

[High Binder]

Note, you cannot f up on anything you work on though.

Yeah you can. I know guys who fucked up entire runs and shipped them out that cost the company $250,000 and because they have that specific skill set they are still to this day working in the exact same position.

Fucking stuff up and crashing machines is all part of being a machinist... It's part of the job.

 

[Pester]

Not sure if you are looking for career advice or a life coach. And I dont mean that disrespectfully.

The difficult answer is you need to decide what you want in life and what sacrifices you are willing to make to get there. Be honest in doing that.

If you value an interesting work life that is low stress, has reasonable compensation and allows for more home time thats one path. If you get energized by a high energy, high dollar, frequent travel/location changes thats a different track. Somewhere in between? From there you can narrow down they type of work you will do that meets that goal. As an example, I have two sources of income applicable to this discussion. One is a regular job that provides a lot of consistency, good pay and good benefits that supports my goals of being challenged intellectually and providing a source of steady income as well as work/life balance. The other is a specialty custom manufacturing business focused on the equine industry. This allows me to have final control of the output and how that work gets done(not where I want it to be yet). All the control/risk and all the reward are mine. I get to focus on learning new production methods for cost containment as well as improved revenue generation. Each of these give me something different that I value and they are different from each other so you should think about whats important to you. Dont focus on your skills until you understand your motivations and aptitudes.

Most people getting started have a steep hill to climb and, in many cases, in getting through the drudgery of that learning curve a lot of people quit because learning becomes too unsatisfying to them. I tend to follow a lot of those folks and I will tell you that, for those that quit, the thing they become good at is quitting. Look at why you are at this point. Again, no disrespect....someone had this conversation with me. As an example, a buddy of mine and I got started in our careers at the same time. I took different types of jobs because the others weren't a 'fit'. In hindsight he was just more persistent than I was and I was the guy that got good at quitting.

I haven't 'fired' a single person in years....in fact I view that as a complete organizational failure as well as a personal one. I have, however, helped many many people find their own path or make it easy for them to quit. Dont be the later.

Statistically you will make more money with a degree so if you are a betting man get the degree. If you are crazy confident in your skills and the direction you want to go then just go do that.

Lastly, define if you like the gratification of 'doing' the work or 'leading' the work. Nothing wrong with either. Just different mindsets

Best of luck and PM if you are interested.

 

[thrusty]

I've got a bachelors in computer science and focused on criminal justice as well. That's currently my primary job and it pays the bills. Cyber Security is where it's at if you're leaning that direction.

My passion is still with firearms and the industry in general - been doing that all my life too and it's also my second job...it doesn't pay the bills, but it puts a damn big smile on my face. lol

I'd say stick with something that you're going to be happy doing the rest of your life...even though we all know that's a pipe dream.

 

[JB02]

You need to think in terms of what offers you the best chance of providing meaningful income without getting saddled in debt.

30 is late to be starting from scratch; realize that people filling entry level positions would be 10-12 years younger than you. I went to grad school in my early 30s and stuck out like a sore thumb. I couldn't imagine what that would be like for a job.

Go with what's going to get you a real paying job fastest with the least amount of debt. Getting an OK, but not great paying job with lots of debt is something you should stay clear of. If your wife is getting a PhD, you're family will already have one hefty tuition bill to pay already.

If you have a lead on getting training as a CNC machinist, I would go that route if you can manage to get credentialed skills without debt overload. You already have some "machinist" training from gunsmithing school, so move on to the next level.

 

[fx77]

If in fact, as U say-- you LOVE working with your hands then if U do what you love, u will not "Work" for the rest of your life.
Computer science is really competitive, crowded, and U will have to compete with some really smart KIDS and foreign labor
Stay with what U love and learn CNC and all its spinoffs and related fields/become a master machinist..... and learn welding on the side..U will never again be out of work.JMHO

 

[c1steve]

I went to grad school twice, at 32 and at 47. The main difference is that the women in school were chasing me much more at 47 y.o. than when I was younger. I never did figure that out...However I was a runner/cyclist/swimmer and they all thought I was 32 when I was 47.

A friend used to teach shop at San Quentin Prison. One of the guys was in for 20 years because he did something stupid when he was young. However, he was not a bad guy. He became so good at CAD/CAM in prison that he ended up teaching it to the other inmates. When he left San Quentin, he had a job lined up doing CAD programming at $118k a year.

I am sure he was very good, but plenty of people can do this. As to CNC work, Seekins Precision does almost all their work on CNC equipment. Also Sig Sauer just opened a new factory to do 95% of their total production world wide. The factory is in Portsmouth, NH. They have approximately 64 CNC machines that cost $2 million each. My recommendation is to learn CNC, for many reasons.
Photo of part of the new factory:

 

[thejeep]

leave cheap for now. get your wife to get a job at a university teaching nursing. and prepare to enjoy summer vacations. maybe your wife could get you on with the university raking leaves. you could just rake and watch girls.

 

[Kid_Lefty]

With a machinist background, my advice is to keep an open mind... I work in the natural gas industry and didn't know the first thing about "the pipeline". When we look for new employees, we look for guys with a strong work ethic and some mechanical aptitude. You're not going to know the specific skills we require right off the bat but with the right attitude, you'll pick it up quick. We have 2000 hp and 3400 hp engines that pump natural gas and when these things need repaired, you can't go to the local auto parts store for every part. Some of it's one of a kind and takes some machining, testing, ingenuity, etc. Oil & Gas is HUGE right now and it's not going anywhere any time soon, especially since they can ship it overseas and make a fortune. Average salaries are 50-60k a year with good benefits and retirement plans. And once you're in, you're in! I've seen five guys retire in my six years and four of them had 40+ years. And the guys we hired to replace them have been in their 30s and 40s.

Not necessarily trying to talk you into a pipeline job but don't be afraid to look into a bunch of different industries! There's a lot of places for someone good with their hands.

-Kid

 

[proneshooter]

proneshooter,

what is verifiable technical education?

One example is a diploma and transcript in machining/mfg technology from a community college. Something the employer can cross check to make sure what you say you know isn't bullshit. No guarantees, but better than blind faith.

 

[Phezzik]

Thanks for all the input guys. It was kind of an odd question to ask a bunch of strangers, but the perspective might have been what I needed. I have time to figure out exactly what I'm going to do, as I'm not enrolling in anything for another year (residency requirement in Oklahoma so that tuition is lower, and it gives me a chance to pay off my truck). A LOT can happen in a year, but it seems that the machinist route may be the better way to go, especially if I can learn CA on top of it. Besides, it doesn't mean I can't do PC's still. I still build them for fun, and I'm in the process of learning C++. Well, "learning" is a relative term, as I'm trying to teach myself. I'm always down for learning something new and challenging myself at the same time.

 

[proneshooter]

Being a heavily PC-literate machinist is a very good combination of skills to have.

 

[Smcarroll]

Go to welding school, buy a welding truck, make 100+ an hour in north dakota. I am the same age as you -5 months. Its been good to me, I make money and love my work.

 

[Sharpsman]

We need TOOL & DIE makers!!

 

[proneshooter]

We need TOOL & DIE makers!!

+1

 

[QuickNDirty]

Thanks for all the input guys. It was kind of an odd question to ask a bunch of strangers, but the perspective might have been what I needed. I have time to figure out exactly what I'm going to do, as I'm not enrolling in anything for another year (residency requirement in Oklahoma so that tuition is lower, and it gives me a chance to pay off my truck). A LOT can happen in a year, but it seems that the machinist route may be the better way to go, especially if I can learn CA on top of it. Besides, it doesn't mean I can't do PC's still. I still build them for fun, and I'm in the process of learning C++. Well, "learning" is a relative term, as I'm trying to teach myself. I'm always down for learning something new and challenging myself at the same time.

If you don't know about constructors, overloading, and polymorphism, I'd guess you're not very far along with learning C++.

If that's the case, you would have more luck learning Python.

Python is good for pretty much everything, the documentation is outstanding, and it runs on just about every platform.

You'll get a lot farther in programming with Python in less time than with most any other language. As a bonus, when you want to switch to another language, if you have a good base in Python the transition will be much easier.