I thought that I had read where AI had made a 223 bolt and or 223 rifle some time back. If so, I don't understand why it would be such an ordeal to make them again. If they were proofed then, why would they not be proofed well enough to use them now? There seems to be a need/want for them. Seems like it would be great for the maker and the buyer. What would also be good is to have the products out there that people might want like bolt bodies and such. I had wanted an AX for a long time and got one. It is one of the rifle's which I will most likely never sell it as I have gotten tons of barrels for mine. Would be great to be able to add a 223 to the mix since components are so much cheaper for it than anything else out there.
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Accuracy International 223 conversion working
- Thread starter trophyhunter
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@rundm, I was thinking just the other day that I remembered AI having a functioning .223 years ago also. Seems like we have an option now, however... If AI doesn't want to make one, who gives a shit?
That was the AW Varminter.
I tried to buy one in 223 off a member here years ago who said they had one, but they would not let go of it.
I asked Tom about offering 223 bolts probably 10 years ago when I picked up my first AE Mk3. The reply was that a 223 conversion was in the plans, but low priority. And then a year ago or so AI teased magnum and 223 bolts in that video done with Frank at MHSA, so everyone got fired up again.
When Gilbert and Enrique came out with their 223 conversion I jumped on it, and don't regret it one bit... I've been shooting it over a year now and we're still waiting on news from AI about the factory offered conversion bolts. Will they ever see the market? Possibly, but going to have to keep waiting.
Going to go out and shoot my 223 AX again tomorrow, have some more brass to fireform (mine is in 223AI.) It's a great shooter and functions perfectly. My opinion is that Enrique's "gen 1" bolt head feels just like a factory AI bolt on closing and I have zero complaints, and if Greg's tweaks to the lugs make the closing even smoother then it will be even better. I'd love to see pics of a gen 1 vs Greg's gen 2 bolt head side by side.
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Y'all just had to mention that shit ass comp trigger. Just went down mid stage. No sear engagement 
You forget what is selling, and for many years, the intended audience. To quote a gentleman I greatly respect “I sell rifles, not accessories”. Which I understand 1000%, the profit in a 223 conversion is minimal to the effort of a rifle system. Is it smarter to sell the alternator to your car or sell the car.
Maybe now the market is changing a bit but for many years, it was the best sniper rifle system in the world. Meaning it was designed for military & law enforcement, realistically except for training, there is no need for a 223 bolt action. In the grand scheme of LEO/MIL they don’t really worry about the $.11 difference in ammo cost per trigger pull. They want their person to know what his 308 does. Not just a simulated repetition.
And the old 223 varminter was a 3 lug design if I’m not mistaken. Now with AT/AX newer being 6 lug it’s a whole new animal that a giant company doesn’t want to invest all the research & development that would only be an accessory add-on.
But with that, get on Bugholes list if you really want to shoot 223 variants. I’ve been shooting mine for over 3yrs, love it.
I think the car analogy is a little off, I mean think about it. Buy a new car, and you can pick from 3-5 different trim levels, upgrade the engine, brakes, paint, etc. Accessories out the ass can be added from floor mats to roof racks. Buy a Tesla and you can upgrade it over the internet. Then if you need an alternator you can go to the dealer and buy one.
And let’s not act like they don’t intend to make a profit on accessories for the atx…
I also don’t think AI is as “giant” of a company as people make it out to be. They have UK and US divisions, but this isn’t some Fortune 500 company with thousands of employees. It’s a small, niche company that makes one thing well. And a lot of the parts aren’t made by them, like the barrel, chassis, trigger…
We are not a "giant" of a company but we do design, develop, test and build in production our rifles in the UK for those markets outside of the USA. That includes barrels, chassis and triggers.
In order to support the USA market we have chosen to machine and Cerakote components for the AXSR and AT-X chassis's at Win Tactical, in the USA. We buy the best cut rifle barrel blanks in the world from Bartlein and Hawk Hill which are chambered and threaded by Win Tactical, who do a fantastic job, all in the USA. We buy triggers from Tom Myers which have been fully tested and proven in our AXSR and AT-X models. We assemble and test those rifles at our facility in Fredericksburg, VA.
We do all of this to maximize the content of our rifles in the USA and have supported the market here for over twenty years. We will continue to do so and although we cannot do everything you might want when you want it, we will provide products to meet market needs after we complete a comprehensive design, development and test program to ensure we always meet high quality and safety standards.
Tom Irwin
Accuracy International
Just got off the phone with 'em... I intend to give you a run for your money on most absurd 'trainer rifle', Dave... Bolt on the way from Greg & fire control coming from Euro.
Hi,Just got off the phone with 'em... I intend to give you a run for your money on most absurd 'trainer rifle', Dave... Bolt on the way from Greg & fire control coming from Euro.
$12,000 trainer rifle FTW!
Sincerely,
samb300
Bet we could have it before factory AI 223 bolts and mags too
All I have to do is put like 500,000 rounds thru it & it'll pay for itself... Sorta.
Assuming of course, that you already have 1,800# of powder, 50,000 pieces of brass, and 500,000 primers and bullets on hand.
It practically pays for itself!
Hi,
Who doesn't have a ton of powder?! And Theis hooked me up with a deal on a container of primers... Should be here any day. #Pumped #I'mYourPrimerGuy #UkrainianFreedom
Sincerely,
J-Ham
I’m still waiting on my 100,000 rounds of 9mm ammo from Theis as well.
Hi Frank!
The last thing I want to do is call you out on your own playing field, but for better or worse it is kind of the public record . . You've got my number!
Implying this (above quote) would be flat out wrong and I'm quite sure we have discussed this previously. The ASR trigger that "failed" was NOT a Competition Trigger, it was an AI trigger made by AI in England. And BTW, when we got the rifles back many weeks later that trigger would hold the MIN weight in ASR spec (barely), but it would hold it. If you want my honest opinion an actual trial involving end users was not wanted and all submissions were efficiently eliminated by an engineer at NSWC until the one submission remained. There was no trial in the traditional context.
We have shipped a LOT of comp triggers and relatively few of them have had issues. As you know, we go to great lengths to take care of customers. With the introduction of the AT-X there is going to be a renewed and intensified critique of AI and its products. This is entirely fair and we want to listen to all of our customers. There have been several changes to the design and assembly of the Comp Trigger since it was first introduced and these changes have improved the performance and reliability a great deal. If further improvements can be made we will absolutely make it happen.
I found out from FB that one of the people that had a recent issue with a trigger was Chris Way. I reached out to him on Messenger and had a good discussion with him Sunday night. I have also followed up with Adam at MHSA to get his opinion on the issue that two rifles had in a recent match. I would really like to get one back in the untouched condition, but I value Adam's assessment and I trust his work. I have asked Adam to put me in touch with the other owner for follow-up.
I take exception to this assertion. We are what I would describe as puritanical when it comes to quality. That doesn't mean that things always turn out perfectly, but our service returns have become almost vanishingly low and we continue to drive towards zero defects. When we set up AINA in 2009 the top three problems facing us were customer service. We don't ever consider that aspect of our business to be "behind us" and we make every effort to be customer focused. This forum is a significant part of that effort.
I have had two phone meetings with Tom Myers in the past week and we have identified some areas for potential performance improvements and I will have some parts here next week for evaluation.
BTW, I do agree with you that shooters are doing themselves a disservice by shooting ridiculously light triggers in "tactical" rifles, but the "sport" has evolved away from it's roots and you can only ignore a market for so long as others have generously pointed out in this thread.
You actually have a comp trigger in the rifle you shot at Gunsite last spring ;-) and it works perfectly!
At present, I only have one AI rifle that does not have the Competition trigger and I have just as much confidence in them as I do in an AI manufactured trigger.
And I do want to apologize for continuing to derail this thread.
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All AI rifle designs are tested to failure and the pressure levels far exceed anything specified by SAAMI or CIP.
Customers unwittingly test rifles too and we need to understand the behavior of the system in these ultimate failure modes.
This is a classic over pressure load. Someone just chasing more and more velocity.
This is from a bore (muzzle) obstruction on a 338LM. The action was unharmed and still passed headspace. In both cases the operators were uninjured.
-Scott
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Don't worry about derailing. You answer where the questions come up so the people that asked them will see the answer.
It is refreshing seeing the people that have the true answers respond.
I actually own one of those AI 223 "prototypes". I have a new barrel on it and have been testing it recently. The data will be used for a benchmark. This gun feeds quite will, but it isn't 100%. Customers will forgive a 3rd party vendor for less than 100% reliability but AI would get crucified. As Tom noted earlier, proper engineering and testing take time and money. Lots of money.
The information at that link is only partly accurate. There were a total of 5 AWVs produced, two in 22-250 and three in 6BRs. Below is one of the 6BR AWVs. Those were on very short actions with double stack 10-shot mags. The two .223s that were produced were built on the AW308 action. The photo below is my 223 AW in an AT-X prototype chassis out for some practice and testing.
The pics below are one of the AWV 6BRs. The action port is much shorter than the standard AW308. It has a 6-lug bolt and lock ring and runs 10-round mags.
-Scott
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Awesome pics of the 6BR AWV Scott, first time I've ever seen a real one! Thanks for that.
I 100% agree with you that if the genuine AI conversion didn't function 100% you would never hear the end of it on here. One only has to look back at all the comp trigger posts. I also agree that performing design/development and running a documented and instrumented test program isn't cheap... I do that for my day job, albeit in a different industry.
Gilbert and Enrique did admit getting their 223 conversion to run was difficult. While I really like my 223 conversion I got from them, I'm fairly certain their current extractor design would not pass AI's durability testing. While their current modified sako style extractor works well the very limited amount of material left on the extractor tail/nipple to engage into the bolt head (necessary to avoid having the firing pin hit the extractor nipple during bolt rotation) leaves me with some concerns about how it would fare with a stuck case. There just isn't much material left on the extractor tail, and I worry about it popping out of the bolt head or deforming if there's ever a stuck case and I have to yank on or smack the bolt handle. Haven't had a stuck case in my 223 AX yet, so I don't have data to prove or disprove my impression. For now I can say it functions very well and I really enjoy shooting it.
Personally, I would prefer a more conventional AI leaf spring style extractor, but that would have been a very large additional cost for Gilbert and Enrique (and now Greg) as it would be a completely custom part (along with heat treating and probably straightening afterwards) instead of just modifying an off the shelf sako style extractor.
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same... I loved my .223 conversion from Gilbert, but if I had kept it, it would be in an AW/ AT and not taken back out again.
Thanks for sharing, Scott !
Can we get some more details on the .223?
You said built on the AW platform....so 3 lugs?
Leaf spring extractor? It appears to be feeding from an AICS mag. Any plans to make a double- stack, double-feed .223 AW style mag?
Any other details would be great.
Thanks!
Scott might answer your questions but for clarifications sake, the two 223 bolts and actions, referred to by Scott, are from the 1990's and never got beyond a couple of prototypes. As stated by another member our focus was on military and LE for most of the past 40 years.
We have no plans, at this stage, to develop a 223 version of the AT-X but that does not mean we will not do it, as we are also focusing on the civilian competition market in a serious way.
Tom Irwin
Accuracy International
Wait US barrels are no longer bartlein blanks only ? Is there a way to know if you are getting a hawk hill blank?
Weird. A year ago they said 6.5 PRC bolt was already in development and 223 was coming.
Well that didnt age well, did it?
I did not say we are not using Bartlein!
The majority of Win Tactical blanks are Bartlein but we have also used Hawk Hill recently to meet demand.
Hi Sam, don't you still have my phone number and email? I'm happy to PM it to you. Feel free to contact me as you have in the past if you need assistance with anything related to AI.
When the AT-X was launched, several premature statements were made by AI Team members who were aware of some ongoing activities and suggestions of what we might do in the future. They are an integral part of the AI family, had a huge influence on the AT-X features, but not employees and not involved in development projects.
For clarification and I have stated this before:
1. We have no ongoing 223 development project.
2. We have no 6.5 PRC bolt development project.
We developed the AT-X rifle in 6.5 Creedmore and now offer it in 6 Creedmore in the USA. In addition we have developed the Remington 700 and Tikka AICS and are in the process of working on an Anschutz AICS.
We are not developing anything else for the AT-X until these projects are complete and in our production system.
When we have developed something else, we will tell you.
Tom Irwin
Accuracy International
I didn't take it as AI was no longer using Bartlein from your post I was just seaking clarification that AI was using a second US supplier for blanks to win tac.
I have always been under the assumption all US made AI barrels were barts finished by wintac and I was wondering if there is any way to tell the diff between a Bart win tac and hawk hill win tac barrel since AI is sourcing from them now for blanks.
Is hawk hill using Bartleins rifling profile and land and groove pattern? @Frank Green
All my win tac Bart barrels have been absolute hammers and clean easy
Having owned several Hawk Hills to my knowledge they only produce 4 groove traditional land/groove barrels. They produce some of the most accurate barrels I've owned and I've owned Bartleins, Kriegers, Proofs, and many more.
What you scared of homie? Someone needs some Kriegers in their life.
Huskydriver,
I hope that clarified if for you.
For the others interested in 223 and 6.5 PRC, just because we are not working on those developments now it does not mean we will not be working on them in the future.
Tom Irwin
Accuracy International
You can buy Polymer AI mags in 223…they work perfect
But they do tend to split after some use, well after 3-4yrs of shooting my 223 conversion, they split after about a year/barrel
There is also a AW double stack mag prototype, I think it held 16rds of 223, and you can leave them real long…like 308 long. But I don’t think it was gonna get produced.
I got compass lake kreigers....awesome barrels.
The two worst barrels that I have ever owned were a pair of dog shit hawk hills barrels
I have 2 here in the shop that didn’t shoot anything better then 2”. It was just random flyers no matter what we did. One had some pitting on the rifling, the other I don’t recall but since then we’ve stayed away from HH.
Exactly I have seen shotguns group better than those 2 barrels... The lapping in both left alot to be desired as well iirm been a couple years now.
All good I got a stash of Bartleins for awhile
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Could we get some more pics of the bolt showing the face, the extractor, etc?
Thanks!
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