Actions: Surgeon, Defiant, Badger? Equal in quality?

[amedeo1227]

Looking for a custom build action.


Really looking at Badger M2013, friend recommended Defiant, and Surgeon is the standard which all are measured by.

I know you have to wait for a surgeon, I'm ok with that, my real question is about the Badger. Are they on par with all the others?

 

[poison123]

If Surgeon is the standard....just get the standard then.

 

[Wyfox]

Badger 2013 is excellent I'm building a 6.5saum with one. You'll be waiting a long, long time or paying out your ass for a Surgeon since they no longer sell just actions. Defiance is great too and don't over look Bighorn also. You can't go wrong with any of those.

 

[Adam B]

I would use a Defiance Deviant over a Surgeon any day of the week. The Badger is a different animal altogether, great action but really not comparable to the rem clones

 

[steve123]

I would use a Defiance Deviant over a Surgeon any day of the week. The Badger is a different animal altogether, great action but really not comparable to the rem clones

Curious why? Give us the scoop about the Defiance please Adam.

 

[Adam B]

Surgeon uses a cast bolt with a stock rem 700 extractor (not that they are bad but there are better alternatives out there), plus add the fact that the bolt isn't timed correctly to the action (it doesn't cam properly for extraction). The Defiance is solid billet machined bolt, uses a mini-16 extractor and is timed for extraction, all improvements in my opinion.

 

[Hunt]

Please provide facts on bolt being cast and action not being timed properly.

Surgeon uses a cast bolt with a stock rem 700 extractor (not that they are bad but there are better alternatives out there), plus add the fact that the bolt isn't timed correctly to the action (it doesn't cam properly for extraction). The Defiance is solid billet machined bolt, uses a mini-16 extractor and is timed for extraction, all improvements in my opinion.

 

[steve123]

Surgeon uses a cast bolt with a stock rem 700 extractor (not that they are bad but there are better alternatives out there), plus add the fact that the bolt isn't timed correctly to the action (it doesn't cam properly for extraction). The Defiance is solid billet machined bolt, uses a mini-16 extractor and is timed for extraction, all improvements in my opinion.

Interesting! Thanks.

 

[Adam B]

Please provide facts on bolt being cast and action not being timed properly.

First, the bolt, Dave Kiff (owner of PTG) himself told me last year [MENTION=11172]shot[/MENTION] that they were making replacement bolts for surgeon 591 actions since the current bolts are cast and there is a demand for replacement bolts.

Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

I like Badger actions because of the 60° bolt, barrel interchangeably, extra long barrel tennon, flat top with pinned pic rail, extreme robustness, and the "2nd kind of cool" factor.

Downside is they're heavy and you never find stocks ready to go for them, you'll have to order and wait.

I have both an M2008 and M2013. The '13 totally solves the heavy bolt lift issue of the '08.

Great action, but nothing wrong with a 591 or Deviant.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

To each their own. I had a Deviant and sold it (for a list of reasons). I would not have another one. I guess I'm a Surgeon fan boy. I have thousands of rounds thru them and not a single issue with the bolt, bolt internals, or ejection. When myself or anyone else breaks a Surgeon "cast" bolt, I'm sure we will all hear about it.....until then, I'm sticking with them.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.

This has been covered before here on the hide, much to the chagrin of the Surgeon fans.

Forgot about this!

 

[jake6547]

[Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.[/QUOTE]

I actually second this as well, my deviant was a big improvement over my surgeon in that department, I also really like the mini 16 extractor.

 

[Edds]

I could get interested in a Deviant if they had a Chromoly option.

 

[bas402]

I like my Surgeon but couldn't get another for my new build and since I am building a SA switch barrel 260/6.5 SAUM the Bighorn TL2 AW cut was a perfect choice with the interchangeable bolt heads.

 

[ghorsley]

Stiller Tac 30

 

[amedeo1227]

So back to badger, does a build require different parts than the other 2?

I'm trying to find out if the badger action is on the same level as the other 2?!

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

So back to badger, does a build require different parts than the other 2?

I'm trying to find out if the badger action is on the same level as the other 2?!

No, not really. The main difference is the stock. The Badger requires a very different inlet than Rem700 "clones".

Otherwise, it takes Rem700 triggers, bottom metal etc.

Not crucial, but it makes sense to buy a +1 barrel (an extra inch of shank) for Badgers because the tennon is so long. Again, not needed, but looks nice and provides meat for a better setback/rechamber in the future.

 

[Boltfluter]

To each their own. I had a Deviant and sold it (for a list of reasons). I would not have another one. I guess I'm a Surgeon fan boy. I have thousands of rounds thru them and not a single issue with the bolt, bolt internals, or ejection. When myself or anyone else breaks a Surgeon "cast" bolt, I'm sure we will all hear about it.....until then, I'm sticking with them.

Trevor,

Curious as to what issues you had with the Deviant. Care to share. I have my second Bighorn on order. One of the best IMHO.

Paul

 

[Bucolic_Jake]

Does anyone use a Shilen Action? It seems to be a Remington and Savage hybrid, using the best aspects of both.

 

[Pusher591]

[Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.

I actually second this as well, my deviant was a big improvement over my surgeon in that department, I also really like the mini 16 extractor.[/QUOTE]

I agree, my Surgeon wasn't bad at all and I never had an issue with it but my Alpha 11 Deviant is just an all around better action. Its smoother, feels more solid, locks up very nice, and ejection is better. I hate the slop in the Surgeon bolts, I know it serves the purpose to increase its reliability as a field gun but its a little too loose for my liking.

 

[RobertB]

I just learned a little about how the threads were cut on surgeons too yesterday. Not single point cut. So the threads are spaced differently as you go deeper in the tenon. Maybe this was just this one action. But apparently this was confirmend by surgeon on their methods. I'm no smith but my smith friend was telling me this yesterday when I was looking into buying one of his surgeons. Still love em though. But I do find me self really lkkeing my templar which is a defiance.

 

[buckey]

Check out BAT actions also = the HRPIC (long action) and the VRPIC (short action).

These both have integral recoil lugs and picatinney rails & the machine work from BAT is super nice!!

 

[Sgposin]

Another plus to the Deviant is the have it your way ability. You can customize it from Tang to Tenon and everything in between.

 

[Hunt]

So help me understand this quote on their site:

"All Surgeon bolts start as a solid 4140 forging, the forging is then roughed machined and sent out to be heat treated.Once the bolts come back from heat treatment they are then finished machined."

Actions | Surgeon Rifles

I ask in that I have one of the early generation Surgeon actions built by KMW. It seems like I remember Surgeon having a picture of the bolt forgings on their site.

First, the bolt, Dave Kiff (owner of PTG) himself told me last year [MENTION=11172]shot[/MENTION] that they were making replacement bolts for surgeon 591 actions since the current bolts are cast and there is a demand for replacement bolts.

Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.

 

[JSF]

I am curious as to what issues people have had with Surgeons and extracting? I have thousand's of rounds down mine and never had issues. I am not trying to start a flame war just curious. I happen to like the sloppy bolt. I have been down the road of tight tolerances and did not enjoy it. It really sucks when your in the middle of a match and you can't cycle the bolt due to to dirt.

Iam looking forward to getting my GAP in a few months so I can really compare the Deviant with the Surgeon. I have a feeling I will be happy with both.

 

[jolofree]

Take a look at the Alpha 11 from SAC

 

[Trevor300wsm]

I am curious as to what issues people have had with Surgeons and extracting? I have thousand's of rounds down mine and never had issues. I am not trying to start a flame war just curious. I happen to like the sloppy bolt.

As I can't speak proof positive for every single person, I'm just going to go out on a limb and say "none". If there were issues with extraction or broken bolts from Surgeon we would have heard about it here. It's just something for people to speculate about in terms of "the possibility of what if".

My Deviant had to be sent back to Defiance twice for issues of the entire action footprint being out of "true 700 spec". Even after two trips back to Defiance, I still had issues with it. I had to cut 4 fucking coils off the ejector spring just to get it soft enough to where you could chamber a piece of new brass (much less a live round) without having to break cheek weld and it was still unreasonably tough. The bolt would bind at the very rear of the ejection cycle and you would have to put your thumb directly behind it to insure that you were only applying centered forward pressure to the rear of the bolt so that it did not torque in the raceways. This is common on factory Rem actions with huge oversized bolt knobs, but not custom actions. I'd only seen this one other time with a early model Stiller action. This might all be trivial shit to some and considered not a big deal. However, my 591's are smooth as butter, fit the chassis/stocks like they are supposed to, don't have chambering issues due to overly long springs, and a gorilla could work the bolt sitting beside the rifle using every direction of force except direct centered behind the bolt....and it'd glide like it was on ball bearings.

Y'all enjoy your Deviants. It just wasnt the "better action" in my case. I'm not a Defiance hater. Their Rebel action is one of my top 3 favorites.

 

[poison123]

Take a look at the Alpha 11 from SAC

I believe the Alpha 11 from SAC...is just a special order Deviance.

 

[pupdawg]

I believe the Alpha 11 from SAC...is just a special order Deviance.

Is Mark at SAC using the Deviant now for his Alpha 11? His Alpha11 actions were based off of Rebel actions, as is GAP's Templar.

The Defiance rebel action is nice, never had any problems with mine and neither did my friends with their surgeons.

 

[Bucolic_Jake]

I thought some of you might find this data interesting (from The Rifleman's Journal):

Rigidity
In this analysis, as always, I received invaluable help from Wes Grass who handled the computer modeling and calculations. We continue to use Stuart Otteson’s methodology for calculating action rigidity (see Benchrest Actions & Triggers, Stuart Otteson, 1983), but using the Solidworks computer program. All rigidity figures are calculated through a section across the width of the action at the center of the loading port as in most cases this will be the weakest area of the action. Following is a table showing our calculations for the rigidity of various modern rifle actions including our subject:

Remington 700 0.54 x 106 in2-lb
Winchester Model 70 1.11 x 106 in2-lb
Remington 40X 1.38 x 106 in2-lb
SPF Diamondback 3.16 x 106 in2-lb
BAT Three Lug 3.21 x 106 in2-lb
Stoelle Panda 3.52 x 106 in2-lb
Barnard S 3.93 x 106 in2-lb
Gilkes-Ross 3.97 x 106 in2-lb
Hall B 10.7 x 106 in2-lb

Some of these are single shot only actions, but most make repeaters.

 

[poison123]

Is Mark at SAC using the Deviant now for his Alpha 11? His Alpha11 actions were based off of Rebel actions, as is GAP's Templar.

The Defiance rebel action is nice, never had any problems with mine and neither did my friends with their surgeons.

No idea. You look at a lot of smiths "custom" actions and they are tweaked defiance stuff.

 

[Gray]

Yes Mark at SAC is using the DEVIANT for his newer ALPHA 11 fitted rifles.

 

[Dallas4rceMarine]

While I cannot speak for certain on this what I can do is share links for you guys to make a decision:

SAC Alpha 11
Signature Rifles and Actions | Short Action Customs

Defiance Deviant
Deviant Action « Defiance Machine

Defiance Rebel
Rebel Action « Defiance Machine


I have an Alpha 11 on my 338LM and liked it a lot, I liked it so much I bought 4 more rifles from Mark using that action that are currently being built.

I also have a Surgeon Scalpel that feels nice but I have never fired it so can only comment on how it feels during dry fire practice.

 

[JSF]

While I cannot speak for certain on this what I can do is share links for you guys to make a decision:

SAC Alpha 11
Signature Rifles and Actions | Short Action Customs

Defiance Deviant
Deviant Action « Defiance Machine

Defiance Rebel
Rebel Action « Defiance Machine


I have an Alpha 11 on my 338LM and liked it a lot, I liked it so much I bought 4 more rifles from Mark using that action that are currently being built.

I also have a Surgeon Scalpel that feels nice but I have never fired it so can only comment on how it feels during dry fire practice.

You have a 338 and 4 more rifles currently being built and a Surgeon you have never shot? Sounds like a good problem to have. Can we be friends? You are going to need help giving all those rifles some attention.

 

[Dallas4rceMarine]

You have a 338 and 4 more rifles currently being built and a Surgeon you have never shot? Sounds like a good problem to have. Can we be friends? You are going to need help giving all those rifles some attention.

I'm sure we can work something out, I'll send you a grid where to meet up when the world ends because I will be needing all the good guys I can find to use whats in my armory!

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

When myself or anyone else breaks a Surgeon "cast" bolt, I'm sure we will all hear about it.....until then, I'm sticking with them.

I think there is a thread here where it was purported that Surgeon bolts are "cast" and Wade jumped in...........not to quote exactly.................."Our bolt are not %$%! cast, they are forged!!!
I have three Surgeon actions and bought them all believing they have forged bolts, of course I've been wrong before. I hate these "better" threads because they are generally similar to "blondes vs. brunettes vs. redheads", it depends on what you have at home. As mentioned, don't overlook the Bighorn actions either...........they rock!

 

[Sniper260]

I use all defiance actions. GAP rifles are defiance actions with a different name lasered into em...

 

[nexusfire]

I own several Surgeon actions with 1000's of rounds thru them and I can tell you that this is false. Have you even owned/shot them?

First, the bolt, Dave Kiff (owner of PTG) himself told me last year [MENTION=11172]shot[/MENTION] that they were making replacement bolts for surgeon 591 actions since the current bolts are cast and there is a demand for replacement bolts.

Second, the timing, all you need to do is own a 591 to clearly see that they are not timed, the bolt camming doesnt correspond with the extraction like any of the Defiance actions do, Deviant or otherwise.

 

[Adam B]

nope never owned one... are you kidding me? I have owned several, many custom builds and a few built by surgeon. They were all great rifles, they shot great but given the information I know and they fact that the Deviant is an improvement in every way I firmly stand by my statement.

 

[Red_SC]

my real question is about the Badger. Are they on par with all the others?

You won't be disappointed.

 

[nicko]

nope never owned one... are you kidding me? I have owned several, many custom builds and a few built by surgeon. They were all great rifles, they shot great but given the information I know and they fact that the Deviant is an improvement in every way I firmly stand by my statement.

Your crazy the deviant is in fact a great action but surgeon is superior just because it has a standard 700 extractor doesn't mean a thing my 591 runs circles around my deviant the tolerance is to tight in my deviant and any fine sand and it wants to seize up... My surgeon in my opinion is way superior I can run the bolt about twice as fast and never had a single issue with the timing on the extractor. If I'm cycling fast my deviant with bind and it's not just mine but multiple friends my dads and everyone I've played with u basically have to push the bolt strait in from the back if u grab the bolt handle towards the end it will bind every time I actually took a knife sharpener to my lugs and took off the sharp edges... Just my opinion

 

[Sonic Crack]

Is Mark at SAC using the Deviant now for his Alpha 11? His Alpha11 actions were based off of Rebel actions, as is GAP's Templar.

The Defiance rebel action is nice, never had any problems with mine and neither did my friends with their surgeons.

You can get an Alpha 11 in Deviant or Rebel configurations or any other configuration that Defiance offers. (single shot, extended tenon, ect)

 

[xdeano]

The surgeon, defiance, stiller, etc are just a glorified 700. Theyre all just fine. To be compairing the m2013 to the 700 clones is not right. The m2013 is more like an AI clone. They are built like a tank, vs a truck. There are lots of nice features with the m13. The only drawback that i can tell you is the weight.
Xdeano

 

[300sniper]

First, the bolt, Dave Kiff (owner of PTG) himself told me last year [MENTION=11172]shot[/MENTION] that they were making replacement bolts for surgeon 591 actions since the current bolts are cast and there is a demand for replacement bolts.

Are you saying Surgeon is falsely claiming their bolts are forged? That's a pretty big accusation. There is a huge difference between cast and forged.

 

[steve123]

Your crazy the deviant is in fact a great action but surgeon is superior just because it has a standard 700 extractor doesn't mean a thing my 591 runs circles around my deviant the tolerance is to tight in my deviant and any fine sand and it wants to seize up... My surgeon in my opinion is way superior I can run the bolt about twice as fast and never had a single issue with the timing on the extractor. If I'm cycling fast my deviant with bind and it's not just mine but multiple friends my dads and everyone I've played with u basically have to push the bolt strait in from the back if u grab the bolt handle towards the end it will bind every time I actually took a knife sharpener to my lugs and took off the sharp edges... Just my opinion

After my last post in this thread I had the opportunity to run the bolts on Nicko and his father's Defiance Deviants actions. At the same time and on the same table were a couple Surgeons, a 591 and a XL. I'll just say I was shocked how prevalent the bolt binding issue was with the Deviants! IMO this shouldn't be an issue on a top of the line expensive tactical action at all!?!? The Surgeons didn't have a binding issue, in fact I couldn't make them bind.

Between the two companies I'd take Surgeon over Defiance without a second thought because of this one issue!!!

There is a thread about the BAT tactical actions here on the Hide. On it I asked if those actions had a binding issue. They that owned the action stated that the BAT action did not have the binding issue. BAT's are known to have tighter tolerances. So I have to wonder what is causing the binding issue in the Deviants.

Or another question is; Can the Deviant bolt binding issue be corrected?

 

[phxfa]

Tolerances in the Deviant series actions are extremely tight, cerakoting the bolt and action internally makes it bind up.
My builder actually turned down my Deviant bolt a couple thou prior to coating. Runs slicker than shit now.
your other option is meloniting the bolt, or meloniting the bolt and action. Mark at SAC did both on my new 300wm build/ Deviant.
I couldnt be happier with this action,,,,,

 

[hk dave]

Are you saying Surgeon is falsely claiming their bolts are forged? That's a pretty big accusation. There is a huge difference between cast and forged.

Im curious about this myself. If Surgeon says their bolts are forged, I'd find it really hard to believe they'd risk their reputation on something like this.

For someone to come out and say Surgeon is lying is quite the accusation. Id love some proof and not just. "This one guy said".

 

[bkw1911]

Tolerances in the Deviant series actions are extremely tight, cerakoting the bolt and action internally makes it bind up.
My builder actually turned down my Deviant bolt a couple thou prior to coating. Runs slicker than shit now.
your other option is meloniting the bolt, or meloniting the bolt and action. Mark at SAC did both on my new 300wm build/ Deviant.
I couldnt be happier with this action,,,,,

Definitely agree. Cerakote kills the deviant action. I stripped my bolt and it runs super slick. A buddy has one completely uncoated and it's glides so smooth. Only big difference I've felt between mine and a 591 is the bolt lift on the surgeon is lighter.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Black Ops]

After my last post in this thread I had the opportunity to run the bolts on Nicko and his father's Defiance Deviants actions. At the same time and on the same table were a couple Surgeons, a 591 and a XL. I'll just say I was shocked how prevalent the bolt binding issue was with the Deviants! IMO this shouldn't be an issue on a top of the line expensive tactical action at all!?!? The Surgeons didn't have a binding issue, in fact I couldn't make them bind.

I would have to agree, but who am I


Mike
Tac Ops