I have never seen the point of making my rounds concentric and it appears to be a total waste of time. For example, spend time making the ammo concentric by measuring this and turning down this then chamber the round. In bolt rifles and semi autos there is an ejector which presses on the case head under spring pessure. So now I have a perfectly concentric round that is shoved against one side of the chamber. Like I said...toatal waste of time and it has never showed its benefit on paper for me.
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Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
- Thread starter insight3b
- Start date
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Then don't do it...no ones standing over you telling you that you have to.
It's an easy process to make straight concentric ammo. I don't see why I wouldn't do it. Ymmv.
Then don't do it...no ones standing over you telling you that you have to.
It's an easy process to make straight concentric ammo. I don't see why I wouldn't do it. Ymmv.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I would imagine getting slammed up the feed ramps in a semi-auto doesn't help much to maintain concentricity either. I definitely am more careful with my loads for a bolt action, but your point about the ejector pressure is one I'll need to think about.
I would imagine getting slammed up the feed ramps in a semi-auto doesn't help much to maintain concentricity either. I definitely am more careful with my loads for a bolt action, but your point about the ejector pressure is one I'll need to think about.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
In the world of BR everything matters, in the world of precision rifle shooting less matters, but Concentricity is still one of the things separates hits and misses at distance, your argument of the ejector putting pressure on a case is a moot point because it's a constant, hence repeatable action on the case while chambered.
In the world of BR everything matters, in the world of precision rifle shooting less matters, but Concentricity is still one of the things separates hits and misses at distance, your argument of the ejector putting pressure on a case is a moot point because it's a constant, hence repeatable action on the case while chambered.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
So if I have 14-22 pounds of spring pressure on the base of a perfectly straight cartridge and said cartridge is housed in a larger diameter chamber that chambered cartridge is going to remain perfectly straight?
The answer is NO
So if I have 14-22 pounds of spring pressure on the base of a perfectly straight cartridge and said cartridge is housed in a larger diameter chamber that chambered cartridge is going to remain perfectly straight?
The answer is NO
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
"Like I said...toatal waste of time and it has never showed its benefit on paper for me."
Okay. But some might wonder if that's more a comment on your rifle and shooting skills than the loading technique. ??
"Like I said...toatal waste of time and it has never showed its benefit on paper for me."
Okay. But some might wonder if that's more a comment on your rifle and shooting skills than the loading technique. ??
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I have 14-22 pounds of spring pressure on the base of a perfectly straight cartridge and said cartridge is housed in a larger diameter chamber that chambered cartridge is going to remain perfectly straight?
The answer is NO </div></div>
So use fireformed brass. Or custom FL dies. I have piles of targets showing me the evidence I need that proves - for me and my guns - that concentric ammo is 100% of the time more accurate than non-concentric ammo. So for me and all the rifles I load for, the answer is yes. Not that you don't make a good point, but your point doesn't undermine the fact that minimal runout is still desirable.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I have 14-22 pounds of spring pressure on the base of a perfectly straight cartridge and said cartridge is housed in a larger diameter chamber that chambered cartridge is going to remain perfectly straight?
The answer is NO </div></div>
So use fireformed brass. Or custom FL dies. I have piles of targets showing me the evidence I need that proves - for me and my guns - that concentric ammo is 100% of the time more accurate than non-concentric ammo. So for me and all the rifles I load for, the answer is yes. Not that you don't make a good point, but your point doesn't undermine the fact that minimal runout is still desirable.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Your logic is incomplete. With perfectly concentric ammo, the round is pushed the same direction in the chamber every time, so while it may not be held concentric to the bore before firing it's at least the same amount off axis for every shot.
If the ammo is not concentric it's not only off axis from the ejector but also a non specific amount off kilter before going in the chamber, leading to unpredictable results depending on which direction the non-concentric cartridge was facing when it was chambered introducing randomness.
The difference in accuracy would vary depending on other factors like what your rifle and self are actually capable of, and the care that was given to the rest of the loading process, but I don't and will not believe there is no advantage to loading concentric ammo based on the fact that the ejector pushes on the cartridge in the chamber.
Come on man....
Your logic is incomplete. With perfectly concentric ammo, the round is pushed the same direction in the chamber every time, so while it may not be held concentric to the bore before firing it's at least the same amount off axis for every shot.
If the ammo is not concentric it's not only off axis from the ejector but also a non specific amount off kilter before going in the chamber, leading to unpredictable results depending on which direction the non-concentric cartridge was facing when it was chambered introducing randomness.
The difference in accuracy would vary depending on other factors like what your rifle and self are actually capable of, and the care that was given to the rest of the loading process, but I don't and will not believe there is no advantage to loading concentric ammo based on the fact that the ejector pushes on the cartridge in the chamber.
Come on man....
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
You might be completely missing th point of everything we do. The point of any shooting technique or reloading technique is consistency. The ejector spring pressure is consistent since its a machine doing he same action. So the fact that the ammo is no longer Aligned perfectly to the bore doesn't actually matter, it matters that since it was concentric going in, with the ejector spring, it is now crooked the same exact way.
For example... All the fundamentals of shooting are not actual laws that if you dont do , you will be a bad shooter. They are just techniques that if you follow help guarantee that you are consistent in your movement. If you were able to jerk the trigger exactly the same way Everytime, you would be you as accurate as the fella that goose straight back on it. The problem is that it's much more difficult to pull back on the trigger with exactly 3 degrees of jerk Everytime, as opposed to just focusing on ping straight back.
So if you can load and chamber a crooked round exactly the same way Everytime, then it would be just as accurate as a concentric round. Otherwise, just because you can't shoot the difference doesn't mean there isn't any.
You might be completely missing th point of everything we do. The point of any shooting technique or reloading technique is consistency. The ejector spring pressure is consistent since its a machine doing he same action. So the fact that the ammo is no longer Aligned perfectly to the bore doesn't actually matter, it matters that since it was concentric going in, with the ejector spring, it is now crooked the same exact way.
For example... All the fundamentals of shooting are not actual laws that if you dont do , you will be a bad shooter. They are just techniques that if you follow help guarantee that you are consistent in your movement. If you were able to jerk the trigger exactly the same way Everytime, you would be you as accurate as the fella that goose straight back on it. The problem is that it's much more difficult to pull back on the trigger with exactly 3 degrees of jerk Everytime, as opposed to just focusing on ping straight back.
So if you can load and chamber a crooked round exactly the same way Everytime, then it would be just as accurate as a concentric round. Otherwise, just because you can't shoot the difference doesn't mean there isn't any.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I actually agree with the original poster. There are a lot of variables in shooting, and we do seek to control as many as we can. But some of the stuff I've seen on here is grossly excessive compared to other, much larger factors that we can't control. This is one of them.
I actually agree with the original poster. There are a lot of variables in shooting, and we do seek to control as many as we can. But some of the stuff I've seen on here is grossly excessive compared to other, much larger factors that we can't control. This is one of them.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Yeah, well I don't. And, the logic is seriously flawed, in my opinion. But, whatever blows his skirt up? BB
Yeah, well I don't. And, the logic is seriously flawed, in my opinion. But, whatever blows his skirt up? BB
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not
Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
well, I'd agree with you that it makes no difference but we'd be both wrong. Good to know that id doesn't work for you.
cheers.
well, I'd agree with you that it makes no difference but we'd be both wrong. Good to know that id doesn't work for you.
cheers.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not</div></div>
Add to that a cartridge that was not concentric to start with, and think about the variability that brings to the equation. Or just do what you do, and I'll agree to disagree.
Edit: Have you measured your runout and is it possible you are loading ammo with good TIR without trying to and thus see no benefit to chasing concentricity?
Not meant to be inflammatory(honest question), but are you/your rifle good enough to note a difference if one existed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not</div></div>
Add to that a cartridge that was not concentric to start with, and think about the variability that brings to the equation. Or just do what you do, and I'll agree to disagree.
Edit: Have you measured your runout and is it possible you are loading ammo with good TIR without trying to and thus see no benefit to chasing concentricity?
Not meant to be inflammatory(honest question), but are you/your rifle good enough to note a difference if one existed?
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I think I'm good enough
Back when I was dabbling with case concetricity I reserved a 'special' box of ammo for my next range trip. I took another box of ammo that I was fire-forming with some factory second 'blemished' 168gr OTM. Once I got to the range and set up the chronograph I settled in and started pressing the trigger. My rounds were impacting insde each other at 100 velocity was outstanding an sd's were in the single digits...I was extremely happy and settled in for some fire-forming. Problem was the 50rds of ammo I had just fired was the for fire-forming ammo I had pulled out the wrong box and didn't check the label. I was disgusted with myself for spending so much time checking for the most concentric out of 500rds loaded. Then my common sense kicked in and really started thinking about it and came to the conclusion that it is a complete and utter waste of time
I think I'm good enough
Back when I was dabbling with case concetricity I reserved a 'special' box of ammo for my next range trip. I took another box of ammo that I was fire-forming with some factory second 'blemished' 168gr OTM. Once I got to the range and set up the chronograph I settled in and started pressing the trigger. My rounds were impacting insde each other at 100 velocity was outstanding an sd's were in the single digits...I was extremely happy and settled in for some fire-forming. Problem was the 50rds of ammo I had just fired was the for fire-forming ammo I had pulled out the wrong box and didn't check the label. I was disgusted with myself for spending so much time checking for the most concentric out of 500rds loaded. Then my common sense kicked in and really started thinking about it and came to the conclusion that it is a complete and utter waste of time
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
What about the rifleman that has .030 jam on his load. Once you put the bullet into the rifling isn't that as concentric as it is going to get thus making all effort put into making concentric ammo a waste of time....
What about the rifleman that has .030 jam on his load. Once you put the bullet into the rifling isn't that as concentric as it is going to get thus making all effort put into making concentric ammo a waste of time....
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Don't waste your time making your rounds concentric if that pleases you. I'll take the few minutes to run mine thru the Hornady concentricity lathe because that pleases me.
Can I shoot the difference? Probably not often enough for it to matter, but for some reloading is an enjoyable activity in itself.
OFG
Don't waste your time making your rounds concentric if that pleases you. I'll take the few minutes to run mine thru the Hornady concentricity lathe because that pleases me.
Can I shoot the difference? Probably not often enough for it to matter, but for some reloading is an enjoyable activity in itself.
OFG
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
From a class I took taught by an ammunition engineer/ high power competitor:
Q: what level of concentricity variation is acceptable for 600 yd use
A: .002 inches
So am I going to listen to the engineer who tests these variables daily or the OP -
easy choice
From a class I took taught by an ammunition engineer/ high power competitor:
Q: what level of concentricity variation is acceptable for 600 yd use
A: .002 inches
So am I going to listen to the engineer who tests these variables daily or the OP -
easy choice
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
There are ejectors out there which aren't the plunger type and which exert no pressure on the chambered cartridge whatsoever.
I'll take concentric over the alternative every time. Especially when it is so easy to achieve.
There are ejectors out there which aren't the plunger type and which exert no pressure on the chambered cartridge whatsoever.
I'll take concentric over the alternative every time. Especially when it is so easy to achieve.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From a class I took taught by an ammunition engineer/ high power competitor:
Q: what level of concentricity variation is acceptable for 600 yd use
A: .002 inches
So am I going to listen to the engineer who tests these variables daily or the OP -
easy choice
</div></div>
Yeah... I took a class to from an engineer once. He was an idiot and knew Dick about realistic application in the real world.
Of course that was while I was getting my engineering degree.
Plus.... Your engineer is nobody without a name
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From a class I took taught by an ammunition engineer/ high power competitor:
Q: what level of concentricity variation is acceptable for 600 yd use
A: .002 inches
So am I going to listen to the engineer who tests these variables daily or the OP -
easy choice
</div></div>
Yeah... I took a class to from an engineer once. He was an idiot and knew Dick about realistic application in the real world.
Of course that was while I was getting my engineering degree.
Plus.... Your engineer is nobody without a name
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Well here is what get out of the reasoning people are giving for don't bother checking runout, your too stupid to adjust your routine/technique to make concentric ammo, or too lazy, either way there is plenty of proof that concentric ammo shoots better, so just keep coming up with excuses and rock on, I'll be hitting a higher percentage of targets and shooting smaller groups, have fun.
Well here is what get out of the reasoning people are giving for don't bother checking runout, your too stupid to adjust your routine/technique to make concentric ammo, or too lazy, either way there is plenty of proof that concentric ammo shoots better, so just keep coming up with excuses and rock on, I'll be hitting a higher percentage of targets and shooting smaller groups, have fun.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your logic is incomplete. With perfectly concentric ammo, the round is pushed the same direction in the chamber every time, so while it may not be held concentric to the bore before firing it's at least the same amount off axis for every shot.
If the ammo is not concentric it's not only off axis from the ejector but also a non specific amount off kilter before going in the chamber, leading to unpredictable results depending on which direction the non-concentric cartridge was facing when it was chambered introducing randomness.
The difference in accuracy would vary depending on other factors like what your rifle and self are actually capable of, and the care that was given to the rest of the loading process, but I don't and will not believe there is no advantage to loading concentric ammo based on the fact that the ejector pushes on the cartridge in the chamber.
Come on man....
</div></div>
This ^
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your logic is incomplete. With perfectly concentric ammo, the round is pushed the same direction in the chamber every time, so while it may not be held concentric to the bore before firing it's at least the same amount off axis for every shot.
If the ammo is not concentric it's not only off axis from the ejector but also a non specific amount off kilter before going in the chamber, leading to unpredictable results depending on which direction the non-concentric cartridge was facing when it was chambered introducing randomness.
The difference in accuracy would vary depending on other factors like what your rifle and self are actually capable of, and the care that was given to the rest of the loading process, but I don't and will not believe there is no advantage to loading concentric ammo based on the fact that the ejector pushes on the cartridge in the chamber.
Come on man....
</div></div>
This ^
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not </div></div>
If you have spent powder debris consistently falling back into your chamber to such an extent that you have to mention it, then your doing something wrong...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so now you have fired a perfectly concentric round and when you extract it a very small chunk of powder fouling gets drawn into the chamber...you chamber your next perfectly concertic round and close the bolt. Now we have another perfectly concentric round being pressed against a fouled chamber...still consistent? I think not </div></div>
If you have spent powder debris consistently falling back into your chamber to such an extent that you have to mention it, then your doing something wrong...
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well here is what get out of the reasoning people are giving for don't bother checking runout, your too stupid to adjust your routine/technique to make concentric ammo, or too lazy, either way there is plenty of proof that concentric ammo shoots better, so just keep coming up with excuses and rock on, I'll be hitting a higher percentage of targets and shooting smaller groups, have fun. </div></div>
I must have hit a nerve...keep wasting your time and have fun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well here is what get out of the reasoning people are giving for don't bother checking runout, your too stupid to adjust your routine/technique to make concentric ammo, or too lazy, either way there is plenty of proof that concentric ammo shoots better, so just keep coming up with excuses and rock on, I'll be hitting a higher percentage of targets and shooting smaller groups, have fun. </div></div>
I must have hit a nerve...keep wasting your time and have fun
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be at Rifles Only in December, come down and shoot the match and show the world what a great marksmen you are with ammo that has a shit load of runout. </div></div>
If I could afford it I would be there. NC ain't too far for you to drive though
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be at Rifles Only in December, come down and shoot the match and show the world what a great marksmen you are with ammo that has a shit load of runout. </div></div>
If I could afford it I would be there. NC ain't too far for you to drive though
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
We are all giving the OP too much time/ credit
if you look at what he recommends for loading equipment, how could he possibly discern the effects of runout variation in the ammo produced:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are only loading for a bolt gun this is perfect
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/420765/lee-classic-loader-223-remington
</div></div>
We are all giving the OP too much time/ credit
if you look at what he recommends for loading equipment, how could he possibly discern the effects of runout variation in the ammo produced:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are only loading for a bolt gun this is perfect
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/420765/lee-classic-loader-223-remington
</div></div>
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are all giving the OP too much time/ credit
</div></div>
100% agreed!
Insight, take these guys info, or stick a fork in this thread and call it done.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are all giving the OP too much time/ credit
</div></div>
100% agreed!
Insight, take these guys info, or stick a fork in this thread and call it done.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be at Rifles Only in December, come down and shoot the match and show the world what a great marksmen you are with ammo that has a shit load of runout. </div></div>
If I could afford it I would be there. NC ain't too far for you to drive though </div></div>
instead of continuing to post/making yourself look foolish get out and do some shooting
no need to travel - an entry on this:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3645312&page=1
may go a ways to disprove the consensus that you are FOS
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insight3b</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be at Rifles Only in December, come down and shoot the match and show the world what a great marksmen you are with ammo that has a shit load of runout. </div></div>
If I could afford it I would be there. NC ain't too far for you to drive though </div></div>
instead of continuing to post/making yourself look foolish get out and do some shooting
no need to travel - an entry on this:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3645312&page=1
may go a ways to disprove the consensus that you are FOS
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I measure TIR on every finished round but I go one step further in insuring that the bullet goes into the barrel straight. Rather than just assume the ejector spring is going to push the case against the shoulder and center the cartridge, I leave a small area (about .125") of the case neck unsized. I just back off on the bushing screw that amount. When the neck is sized this remaining ring that was fire formed to fit the neck portion of the chamber, holds the cartridge with a perfectly concentric bullet right dead center. It shows up in the results as well. A factory Remington that shoots at, or less than, 1/4 MOA on a regular basis.
Since I started sizing the necks with a Forster Shoulder Bump/Neck size bushing die smaller groups became a regular event.
If the OP doesn't see any value, then for him there probably isn't. Like Dale Carnegie said, "A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still."
I measure TIR on every finished round but I go one step further in insuring that the bullet goes into the barrel straight. Rather than just assume the ejector spring is going to push the case against the shoulder and center the cartridge, I leave a small area (about .125") of the case neck unsized. I just back off on the bushing screw that amount. When the neck is sized this remaining ring that was fire formed to fit the neck portion of the chamber, holds the cartridge with a perfectly concentric bullet right dead center. It shows up in the results as well. A factory Remington that shoots at, or less than, 1/4 MOA on a regular basis.
Since I started sizing the necks with a Forster Shoulder Bump/Neck size bushing die smaller groups became a regular event.
If the OP doesn't see any value, then for him there probably isn't. Like Dale Carnegie said, "A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still."
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
Ever hear about training a dog that always has his tail straight up in the air? You can't teach them anything, so don't waste your time. BB
Ever hear about training a dog that always has his tail straight up in the air? You can't teach them anything, so don't waste your time. BB
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever hear about training a dog that always has his tail straight up in the air? You can't teach them anything, so don't waste your time. BB </div></div>
Buzz,
Holy shit, we agreed on something!!
Has Jupiter aligned with Mars?
WTF
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever hear about training a dog that always has his tail straight up in the air? You can't teach them anything, so don't waste your time. BB </div></div>
Buzz,
Holy shit, we agreed on something!!
Has Jupiter aligned with Mars?
WTF
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I agree and disagree with the OP.
I don't agree that making concentric ammo is a waste of time. Some setups make concentric ammo very well without much ado. There is concentric, and concentric enough depending on what you want to do with your ammo.
I have learned that much of your concentricity needs to come from good gunsmithing first. I have a smith who takes pains to chamber concentric to the ACTUAL bore within .0000" range. I have watched him chamber more than a few within .0002". When your chamber is that close in line with the bore it would appear to be very forgiving to your ammo.
I no longer own a concentricity guage. I get satisfactory ammo for my needs without one, by using top grade components and equipment. Then again I no longer shoot BR, if I did you could bet your ass I would own a guage, and shoot without an ejector spring. I know lots of folks who don't use an ejector.
I will bet you this; If you use a Lee classic loader to load ammo, checking concentricity with a guage that costs 10 times as much, probably won't matter.
I agree and disagree with the OP.
I don't agree that making concentric ammo is a waste of time. Some setups make concentric ammo very well without much ado. There is concentric, and concentric enough depending on what you want to do with your ammo.
I have learned that much of your concentricity needs to come from good gunsmithing first. I have a smith who takes pains to chamber concentric to the ACTUAL bore within .0000" range. I have watched him chamber more than a few within .0002". When your chamber is that close in line with the bore it would appear to be very forgiving to your ammo.
I no longer own a concentricity guage. I get satisfactory ammo for my needs without one, by using top grade components and equipment. Then again I no longer shoot BR, if I did you could bet your ass I would own a guage, and shoot without an ejector spring. I know lots of folks who don't use an ejector.
I will bet you this; If you use a Lee classic loader to load ammo, checking concentricity with a guage that costs 10 times as much, probably won't matter.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I use high quality dies and proceed with complete disdain for issue, if your so inclined to ck it press on.
COTS ammo ya reckon they ck everyone ... doubtful
yet folk manage to shoot some tight groups with FGMM/Blackhills etc
Nor do i weight sort brass, because regardless of difference you have no idea where that weight is distributed thru case. So unless your ckin wetcap of every case, overall case weight has zip to do with case capacity.
Do whatever makes you confident/happy, its your time use as you see fit.
If you are incapable of shooting difference then there are no gains to be realized
For what its worth the LEE collet neck die is favored by many BR type shooters for the low run out it produces.
I use high quality dies and proceed with complete disdain for issue, if your so inclined to ck it press on.
COTS ammo ya reckon they ck everyone ... doubtful
yet folk manage to shoot some tight groups with FGMM/Blackhills etc
Nor do i weight sort brass, because regardless of difference you have no idea where that weight is distributed thru case. So unless your ckin wetcap of every case, overall case weight has zip to do with case capacity.
Do whatever makes you confident/happy, its your time use as you see fit.
If you are incapable of shooting difference then there are no gains to be realized
For what its worth the LEE collet neck die is favored by many BR type shooters for the low run out it produces.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
This was the best article I have seen on this subject
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3043836#Post3043836
This was the best article I have seen on this subject
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3043836#Post3043836
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
More people should try the LEE classic loader and I suggest it to people who are thinking about getting into loading as it is an inexpensive starter kit that produces excellent ammuntion.
Looks like I rubbed a few pussies raw and got some folks panties in a bunch along the way. Not the original intent of this post but I won't lose any sleep over it. At least some new light has been shed on case concentricity
More people should try the LEE classic loader and I suggest it to people who are thinking about getting into loading as it is an inexpensive starter kit that produces excellent ammuntion.
Looks like I rubbed a few pussies raw and got some folks panties in a bunch along the way. Not the original intent of this post but I won't lose any sleep over it. At least some new light has been shed on case concentricity
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
The real question is not does it make a difference, but rather HOW MUCH difference does it make? What the advocates have failed to provide is any data to support their case. At least the op shot some sorted ammo to reach his conclusion. So here are some questions for the true believers:
Have you measured the concentricity of your rifles bore to its chamber? Bore to bolt face? This why they true 700 actions
What is the difference in your sorted ammo? Does a .004 shoot in the 5's and the .002 shoot in the 4's? Tell us/show us
Do you notice a measurable difference by going to competition dies? How much?
Are you shooting these groups on a bipod/rear bag with a tactical rifle or from a gun with a 6 in wide forend on a $1000 Farley rest?
The point to all this that without some objective data points guys on this board are left with only opinions to work with. If you guys can show us with numbers the difference then we can decide if it's worth investing in a gauge and better dies and presses. So I will leave you the final question: does it make more sense for a novice to load and shoot a lot of good sub moa ammo and learn wind calls, or spend time and money on measuring and improving concentricity; will he be able to shoot the difference at 500+?
And for the record high tails on pointing dogs is good thing.
The real question is not does it make a difference, but rather HOW MUCH difference does it make? What the advocates have failed to provide is any data to support their case. At least the op shot some sorted ammo to reach his conclusion. So here are some questions for the true believers:
Have you measured the concentricity of your rifles bore to its chamber? Bore to bolt face? This why they true 700 actions
What is the difference in your sorted ammo? Does a .004 shoot in the 5's and the .002 shoot in the 4's? Tell us/show us
Do you notice a measurable difference by going to competition dies? How much?
Are you shooting these groups on a bipod/rear bag with a tactical rifle or from a gun with a 6 in wide forend on a $1000 Farley rest?
The point to all this that without some objective data points guys on this board are left with only opinions to work with. If you guys can show us with numbers the difference then we can decide if it's worth investing in a gauge and better dies and presses. So I will leave you the final question: does it make more sense for a novice to load and shoot a lot of good sub moa ammo and learn wind calls, or spend time and money on measuring and improving concentricity; will he be able to shoot the difference at 500+?
And for the record high tails on pointing dogs is good thing.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real question is not does it make a difference, but rather HOW MUCH difference does it make? What the advocates have failed to provide is any data to support their case. At least the op shot some sorted ammo to reach his conclusion. So here are some questions for the true believers:
Have you measured the concentricity of your rifles bore to its chamber? Bore to bolt face? This why they true 700 actions
What is the difference in your sorted ammo? Does a .004 shoot in the 5's and the .002 shoot in the 4's? Tell us/show us
Do you notice a measurable difference by going to competition dies? How much?
Are you shooting these groups on a bipod/rear bag with a tactical rifle or from a gun with a 6 in wide forend on a $1000 Farley rest?
The point to all this that without some objective data points guys on this board are left with only opinions to work with. If you guys can show us with numbers the difference then we can decide if it's worth investing in a gauge and better dies and presses. So I will leave you the final question: does it make more sense for a novice to load and shoot a lot of good sub moa ammo and learn wind calls, or spend time and money on measuring and improving concentricity; will he be able to shoot the difference at 500+?
And for the record high tails on pointing dogs is good thing. </div></div>
Low Sioux,
You have some valid points.
But the real point of this thread was for the op, insight to start it, then rebuke any post referring to a different opinion.
Killswitch summed it up in the 1st reply. Either take the time to do it or not. Each his own, no need to keep bumping this thread to the top for sake of arguing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real question is not does it make a difference, but rather HOW MUCH difference does it make? What the advocates have failed to provide is any data to support their case. At least the op shot some sorted ammo to reach his conclusion. So here are some questions for the true believers:
Have you measured the concentricity of your rifles bore to its chamber? Bore to bolt face? This why they true 700 actions
What is the difference in your sorted ammo? Does a .004 shoot in the 5's and the .002 shoot in the 4's? Tell us/show us
Do you notice a measurable difference by going to competition dies? How much?
Are you shooting these groups on a bipod/rear bag with a tactical rifle or from a gun with a 6 in wide forend on a $1000 Farley rest?
The point to all this that without some objective data points guys on this board are left with only opinions to work with. If you guys can show us with numbers the difference then we can decide if it's worth investing in a gauge and better dies and presses. So I will leave you the final question: does it make more sense for a novice to load and shoot a lot of good sub moa ammo and learn wind calls, or spend time and money on measuring and improving concentricity; will he be able to shoot the difference at 500+?
And for the record high tails on pointing dogs is good thing. </div></div>
Low Sioux,
You have some valid points.
But the real point of this thread was for the op, insight to start it, then rebuke any post referring to a different opinion.
Killswitch summed it up in the 1st reply. Either take the time to do it or not. Each his own, no need to keep bumping this thread to the top for sake of arguing.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I'm as tired of this as anybody, so apologies to Milo, etc.
My question is: if concentricity doesn't matter, let those that say so do the research, exactly how much non-concentric is just as accurate as concentric?
Prove it for me.
I'm as tired of this as anybody, so apologies to Milo, etc.
My question is: if concentricity doesn't matter, let those that say so do the research, exactly how much non-concentric is just as accurate as concentric?
Prove it for me.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I am not trying to debate the point, I genuinely would like to know How much difference does it make, and if everyone thinks this question deserves a new thread I will be happy to start it.
I am not trying to debate the point, I genuinely would like to know How much difference does it make, and if everyone thinks this question deserves a new thread I will be happy to start it.
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm as tired of this as anybody, so apologies to Milo, etc.
My question is: if concentricity doesn't matter, let those that say so do the research, exactly how much non-concentric is just as accurate as concentric?
Prove it for me. </div></div>
I did answer / but not prove that in the context of 600 yd high power - that was .002
by the time you get to 1000yd F class it would be so hard to isolate the other variables that no one will ever truly know
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm as tired of this as anybody, so apologies to Milo, etc.
My question is: if concentricity doesn't matter, let those that say so do the research, exactly how much non-concentric is just as accurate as concentric?
Prove it for me. </div></div>
I did answer / but not prove that in the context of 600 yd high power - that was .002
by the time you get to 1000yd F class it would be so hard to isolate the other variables that no one will ever truly know
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rjnallie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was the best article I have seen on this subject
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3043836#Post3043836 </div></div>
I am not all that smart but this looks like a pretty good case for concentric rounds.
OFG
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rjnallie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was the best article I have seen on this subject
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3043836#Post3043836 </div></div>
I am not all that smart but this looks like a pretty good case for concentric rounds.
OFG
Re: Advantage of case concetricity? NONE
I think your statement is very true. In the world of BR shooting, yes, it matters...everything matters when one desires to win. However, for most shooters and hunting situations, perfectly acceptable results are achieved with a decent quality die. My bolt guns do benefit by simply neck sizing and I have a routine where I don't ever have to worry about ammo that won't chamber. I think most of us enjoy other things besides shooting so time is of the essence. Are we really going to go to the same lengths that the BR folks do...no. But I must compliment them for their passion.
I think your statement is very true. In the world of BR shooting, yes, it matters...everything matters when one desires to win. However, for most shooters and hunting situations, perfectly acceptable results are achieved with a decent quality die. My bolt guns do benefit by simply neck sizing and I have a routine where I don't ever have to worry about ammo that won't chamber. I think most of us enjoy other things besides shooting so time is of the essence. Are we really going to go to the same lengths that the BR folks do...no. But I must compliment them for their passion.
