AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

[300WSM]

Has anyone kept any data on 700 reliabliity in use vs the AI AW reliablity in use?

Which breaks more and why?

Keep hearing about 700 style actions (including the customs) breaking down at matches. Bolts getting tight or more often then not getting stuck. Water freezes them shut. Sand and dust etc bind it up...especially if there is oil on it.

Is there truth to the above?

I've always been under the impression that 700s could handle A LOT of stuff. But then again the 700 was designed as a hunting rifle while the AI AW was designed as a sniper rifle.

Looking for real experiences here. What have you guys seen in matches etc. Not a bunch of philosoophical stuff like "well the 700 has worked for the army and marines for years if they trust it so do I"

And yes I know EVERY gun fails blah blah. I'm curious as to which has been more reliable. If the 700 is better WHY??? If the AI AW is better, WHY????

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

someone PM'd me and stated that the AIAW has several smaller lugs which apparently give it more room in the lock up area and is designed to move dirt out?

someone verify this?

 

[King-Kong]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. Water freezes them shut.
</div></div>

Not true. At least i couldnt froze it shut and i hunt/train in very cold weather. Whit shitty lubrication you will get any kind of gun to freeze.

I dont trust Remigtons bolt handle that much. i feel that it cant take that much of punishment.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

I did some research on this topic and found that the biggest critics were the British snipers that used them (AIAW). "The bloody thing was too heavy"? This was a view from a 18 yr old that never shot a gun before the military. I have watched videos of the bolts binding up. After everything was researched I went out and bought a AIAW 308. I loved it in almost every way. The English have excellent machining and quality control. They have been building them for a long time. The bolt was designed by a one of the great marksman of our time (even if he was English). The bolt design was cutting edge and still is.

The Remington 700 action has been around longer and has had more history behind it. It is lighter and cheaper to build. I am not talking about high end Surgeon or Lawton variants.

I think this thread was more about AIAW vs Surgeon (bolt safety) action? That would be apples to apples comparison. The AW and Surgeon have similar cost and design. Both high end.

With comparing these two I think you will find very little fails under heavy use. When using the 308 cal I have never found any record of failures do to design or quality. There is a web page on the internet that is for this exact research. Both actions are high end machined works of art.

Both the AW and Surgeon will jam and fail if abused. If there is enough dirt or bad ammo, failure will occur. With this understood it comes down to which action has seen more warlike conditions? This category is dominated by the AW at this time. I feel the USMC will adopt the Surgeon action or some variant in the future.

I love and posses both actions. If I had to choose one it would be the Surgeon. I feel it is smoother, And it is made in the USA.

 

[SwVaGlocker]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

I currently own both and a savage... I consider my AW to be the AK of my long range rifles it has never let me down in any way. It takes abuse like no other rifle I have owned or fired.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

SwVA - how has the rem 700 let u down?

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

700 includes rem, surgeon, etc etc etc. I'm looking for specific experiences and failures. And reasons why one is better than the other from a design prospective.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

terryg, I have to disagree with the statement "the AW has seen more war like conditions"
Think about how many years and production numbers the remington has produced. It smokes the AW. If you add up all the days a remington has been in use in war. I think you will find that It overwhelming trumps the AW. Just by the mere fact of numbers...
I also do not rate a guns quality by giving it to someone that neglects it, then claims it does not function.
I have an AW. It is heavy, I hate the trigger. I really do not like the feel of the stock. I bought it because I thought I would give it a try. It is not as accurate as my custom guns.
So, IMHO it is not worth the 2000.00 more than a custom gun.
Yes, you might be able to through it out of a helcopter into sand, then drag it behind a hummer etc.... and it might shoot.
THE REAL QUESTION IS? IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE ( BESIDES THE GUYS THAT DO NOT PAY FOR THEIR GUNS... IE. MILITARY GUYS ) THAT WILL PAY 6000.00 FOR A GUN AND MISTREAT IT...
( Please do not take my statement about military guys mistreating equipement wrong.. I am very respectful of our military and I support them and thank them....)
I will say that more time it is the operator of the gun that is the problem.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

My statement about time in action is in reference to the surgeon action. I understand that the Remington 700 has the most time in service.

I only consider that the Surgeon action 591(integral recoil lug and scope base with bolt safety) the only worthy competition to the AW. Take the time to research and you will find the same as me.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

There is one situation that is like the Elephant in the room. AI went belly up in 2005? There was an issue with quality and malfunctions. I found that out that the company was reborn under worthy new ownership. The new owners have returned the companies reputation back to where it should be.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

Lately it seems 90% of the custom actions don't work. We see a lot of them fail in one way or another.

Jacob Bynum owns an AW that has 93,000 rounds through the action, he is on his 10th barrel. The only thing that failed on this rifle was the pin that holds the side bolt release broke around the 90,000 mark. The overhaul recommendation from AI is 100,000 rounds.

For me, aside from my AI rifles, I prefer the Rem. 700 action because that too appears to just work, and work well. What I have seen is people break bolt handles off, but that is usually how the shooter drives it. Otherwise, they seem to work and work regardless.

I'm personally tired of having issues with the custom stuff. But regarding the AI stuff, you can't beat it.

 

[gugubica]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

Zak S,ith has a video somewhere of 700 patern actions failing one after the other and AWs keeping running and running and running...

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

One other point here I would like to state. I find that oil in these actions is unnecessary. I feel that debris will stick to the action if lubed. Yes the action will freeze with a petroleum based lube. The military has a cold weather lube (graphite composition?) for this reason. Either action I feel works best clean with no lube what so ever. The down side is that action will wear out prematurely.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Here is the reliability highlight reel
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[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

Check out this video from Zak which addresses a lot of these questions: http://demigodllc.com/video_serve.php?id=ss-rifle-fail

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

That video is great. It reminds me of when I had a total meltdown during a rapid fire at 300yd during a CMP match. All I could think was don't give up. Rebuilt the gun (M1A match)the next day.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have an AW .308 and a GAP .308 built on a trued 700SA

Got less than 130 rounds through the GAP but had a couple of failure to chamber/close bolt with Privi Partizan ammo. I cycled the same rounds through the AW and they chambered fine.

Never had any problems with the AW - but then I've only ever fed it FGMM.

FWIW I think the problem is most likely wider tolerances on the cheapo PP ammo - the GAP runs like a train on FGMM and UK made HPS Targetmaster and shoots better than I can!

Probably not comparing "apples to apples".

Neither rifles see much in the way of extreme temperatures or sand/mud/ice....only good old UK rain!

FWIW I love both rifles....would happily make the same choices again.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

LL,

Where do the customs fail?

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

so in that video is the problem the triggers or the firing pin?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

They fail in a multitude of places, mainly due to the tolerances not accepting the dirty and debris that find their way into the actions.

Can this effect the triggers too, yes, that does happen, but trigger are part of the system, and usually when people go ahead and buy a custom action they get a high speed trigger too... the biggest trigger offender is the Jewell. They fail more than most in the field. I wouldn't use a Jewell if you gave me one, plus a $1000 for my troubles.

The other issue I have seen is with the Surgeons, they bounce the empty brass back into the action, causing problems. Preston's answer I have heard repeated is, <span style="font-style: italic">"don't run the bolt like they do at RIfles Only",</span> but I also know its happening more often, however there is a fix, as I know GAP has wrenched on them and removed the problem. The RSR seems to be fine, its the one with the built in rail that seems to do this. I also know we have screwed up the Lawton's pretty bad as well.

Manufacturers think custom means<span style="font-style: italic"> "tight tolerance" </span> as though they are trying to get the accuracy from the action, and frankly I don't think that is the answer. The accuracy is the barrel. I would rather a looser action than a problem in the dirt. What I <span style="text-decoration: underline">"might'</span> lose from being a bit looser, I will gain by driving the rifle right as well having it actually work the first time. When you look at that video from Zak, if you think even after recovering from the problem they will maintain their accuracy, then you don't shoot enough. In that situation a flustered shooter will be more likely to blow the shot.

As far as lubing them, I know my Nesika K action needs a bunch of grease or it will gall the lugs a bit. The tolerance is too tight so you have to overly clean the bolt and keep it well lubed to work. My Remingtons, and my AIs you don't need near the maintenance and yet, I can't tell the difference in accuracy. I always ask that I don't get a rifle with "Benchrest/Match/Super Tight, tolerances. I want a loose chamber too.

Match is fine, Tactical is different, and these aren't benchrest guns... give me some wiggle room because the thing is gonna get shot, and its gonna get dirty.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

None of the failing rifles in my video are true 700 actions: one Surgeon, one Tubb rifle, and one Winchester. The Surgeon and the Winchester should be considered custom rifles in this context.

ETA:

Frank is right about recovery. In a "mental" match like the SS (shooting alone in the desert for 5-6 hours), having a meltdown like those in the video is likely to not just throw that stage, but it's going to throw your focus for at least some more stages.

I shoot the AI because it works every time.

-z

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

so specifically the Rem FACTORY 700 with a factory trigger. Has there been any failures with this setup? BESIDES the bolt handles breaking off?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

I will say I have seen the safeties on the FN Action jam up the action so its tough to get to work. they are the 3 position ones like the Winchester, but used in the H&S precision rifle. The safeties seem to lock up the action at the worse time. That is the on bolt safety

 

[Doc1911]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Interesting thread. Thanks for the videos.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

zak, have you seen any failures of factory 700s maybe built by say GAP or TC etc with factory triggers fail? (besides the bolt handle coming off)

and I would have to discount the ones which are coated with teflon, duracoat, cerakote, etc. The smoothest coated actions I've seen are simply the factory 700 pss actions. Or the older serial A B stuff.

 

[Tribe]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL,

Any idea on what is being done on the 591 Actions that you reference GAP is working on?

On the "custom" triggers you have used which have failed and what is their failure mode?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

You would have to ask GAP what they do, I know they have done more than 10... I'm not a machinist, so ask George or Moon.

The triggers are a whole other area. Most go too light on the pull, as they want a bench rest rifle that looks "Tactical" then the rifle won't cock every time as well once it gets debris in there they just go dead like in the video. Easy to see. So you cock the bolt, the trigger is simply flat and unmoving, or you cock the bolt and it doesn't so you have cock it again, and it may or may not work.

I honestly see more bolt guns go down than we see issues with M4s. and by comparison, the M4s that do go down usually have 1000s of rounds compared to the bolt gun failures, which is usually do to poor set up from the beginning.

Another big offender is handloads that are too hot. They ruin extractors and ejectors, as well they cause the bolt handles to be broken off. Handloads, tight tolerances, and a change in the weather is a recipe for disaster, including rain. If your tolerances are tight and your ammo is wet, your bolt gun is going down.

 

[beenjammin]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The only issue I have ever had with my AW is that I had an accidental discharge on the line while putting the safety lever on, but it was my fault for adjusting the trigger too light. I was about to make a shot and decided to adjust my shooting position on the bench, not touching the trigger I only touched the safety and as soon as I clicked it to the safe position.... boom. Thank God it was pointed downrange... lesson learned. adjusted the trigger back.... 100% ever after.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

People screwing up the trigger adjustments are a big, big problem. Including some gunsmiths who listen to customers and want them around 1lbs. Or with the AIs they don't understand what a 2 stage trigger is and think they have "Creep" and then try to adjust the trigger down to a single stage trigger which is dumb.

I have never touched a trigger on my AWs, or AE, they are perfect from the start.

 

[Longbow_06]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The triggers are a whole other area. Most go too light on the pull, as they want a bench rest rifle that looks "Tactical" then the rifle won't cock every time as well once it gets debris in there they just go dead like in the video. Easy to see. So you cock the bolt, the trigger is simply flat and unmoving, or you cock the bolt and it doesn't so you have cock it again, and it may or may not work.

I honestly see more bolt guns go down than we see issues with M4s. and by comparison, the M4s that do go down usually have 1000s of rounds compared to the bolt gun failures, which is usually do to poor set up from the beginning.

Another big offender is handloads that are too hot. They ruin extractors and ejectors, as well they cause the bolt handles to be broken off. Handloads, tight tolerances, and a change in the weather is a recipe for disaster, including rain. If your tolerances are tight and your ammo is wet, your bolt gun is going down. </div></div>

Thats an awesome post and explained a lot !! Thank you.


Lee.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

ok so

rem 700 pss action with just factory coating on it, a factory SS (i say ss because i've seen to many old rusted CM trigs) older style trigger set at 3lbs, set in a AICS Stock, a mike rock barrel, a pinned lug, trued up by say GAP or TC. And a greatan firing pin mechnism (with the alloy shroud). With a fairly loose chamber so it takes all factory match ammo. With a bolt handle that is reinforced. Using factory match ammo.

What is going to go wrong with this setup?

AI AW 308 - what is going to go wrong with this setup?

I've added this post so we take out the custom actions and custom triggers, and match BR chambers. This is what I want to compare.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The Gladius started it life as a 700PSS that was purchased by a department and put into an AICS. I bought the stock barreled action in the Chassis and removed the chassis and sent it off to GAP.

Changed the barrel to a Bartlein, but really any custom barrel is good, George keeps my specs reasonable. Then I always have them add a side bolt release and after that is dropped in a stock and bedded. They do add a black Telfon or something or other, so that takes care of the stock finish, but its not overly heavy to cause an issue.

The Harbinger is basically the same thing, different stock, same basic idea.

My Hodge Laser is the same, as is the Original SH Rifle the Kopfjaeger. I have others as well in similar spec but the model has been set and pretty much holds true for any "custom" build. Give me a 700 action, throw in the side release, and move on down the road. It's got to be something special for me to consider a custom action at this point.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL, what kind of trigger does the Gladius have? And have you had any failures with it (as in the rifle)? Thanks.

 

[bohem]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL- It seems like you're essentially telling people to remember that a tactical rifle is a combat conditions weapon at heart, not a bench rest rifle. Much like a race car and a good truck will still transport you from point A to point B, the race car isn't exactly the right application when you want to drive on everyday roads, nor are they low maintenance items.

A bench rest rifle belongs in a combat situation as much as an F1 car belongs on the streets.

Just be able to take that pickup truck and drive it like the cops are trying to catch you for armed robbery.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Mainly George gives me a stock remington worked over... I think the Harbinger, SHR and Gladius all have stock, old school remingtons. Some of my rifles have Huber Triggers in them, but to date no issues with any of my rifles at all, at least the ones mentioned.

My trigger pull weight is usually about 3lbs, so I am not pushing the envelope.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">y failures of factory 700s maybe built by say GAP or TC etc with factory triggers fail? </div></div>

That's kind of a funny question because the vast majority Remington-style rifles (to include Surgeon etc) that show up at our matches have an aftermarket trigger. The only ones that usually have a factory trigger are the pretty much stock, off the rack rifles shot by the new guys. But I can't tell what trigger is in a rifle by looking at it from several yards away, either.

Trigger malfunctions are a relatively small proportion that I've witnessed. The T2K problem in the video was spectacular, however.

I've shot LR field matches since 2004 and have seen a lot of problems. There are a variety of things that go wrong. Do we count as malfunctions or merely deficiencies when a shooter has to adjust the top round before closing the bolt with his AICS, or he has to clean halfway through the day shooting in windy dirty high desert conditions because his bolt was getting chunky and/or wouldn't eject anymore? Should we count it when a round bounces off the scope knob and back into the chamber due to ejector/action/scope mount geometry? How about when chamber dimensions don't tolerate very much carbon in the neck/shoulder area and the bolt won't close? Or blowing primers because of a combination of design and maintenance factors?

At the SS, we shoot in high temps high winds in a dirty, dusty high desert environment. By the end of the day it's not uncommon custom actions and Remingtons to be running chunky (ie semi impeded and/or binding bolt operation) and start to hiccup. These usually don't manifest as spectacular failures, but as a low level of operating in a moderately degraded mode. In contrast, the AI action stays cleaner in the important areas by design, and doesn't have near the number of problems described above. During the same conditions, I don't have to clean my bolt or action or anything to keep it running great.



-z

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Understand this,

When the aliens land and I head to the Rockies, I am grabbing my AW, so regardless of what I have built, when considering what is being asked, of everything in the safe the only one I see on the way out is the AW.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL, if the Gladius has not given you any problems. Why grab the AW when the aliens land? heh

I really don't care either way. I'm just trying to be objective and get as many good points as I can.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Why tempt fate... the AW is a proven combat rifle and if I fall off a cliff and break my bolt handle off I am fucked, where the AW is more likely to take a hit or 3 and survive. Not to mention I have taken the AI Armorers Course and know it intimately.

It's a purpose built system and not a hunting rifle disguised as a one.

There are very few purpose built tactical rifles, the Remington 700 in any configuration is just not one of them, regardless of my spec. I do shoot my Gladius more than my AW on any given day, but that doesn't mean it's better, it just means I shoot it lot. You're asking a reason why I do something everyday that I wouldn't do if the world was ending, well because everyday is easy, the world ending is not. When things get tough the tough use an AI.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

great points!

 

[zscurlock]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Its always good to know you have a alien killer in your arsenal.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

All my AWs have the dovetail mount, and I use the standard AI base/ring combo.

you're free to pick any scope you like, I tend to use the same 3 brands with equal satisfaction, which I won't go into, but its not rocket science to determine my choices .

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL, if there is one malfunction above all others that you see crop up in outdoor shooting that just makes you smack your forehead and want to yell at the rocks because its unnecessary/ridiculous, what is it?

Why, would you say, does it continue to occur?

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Oddball.....my guess would be Trigger failure due to them being adjusted wrong.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

In my experience I would say it is a toss up between people adjusting the triggers too low and causing a problem, and the problems we see with Handloads.

One thing we see a lot, that is annoying is people load their rounds long, which touch the lands and then when they don't fire the round it pulls the round out of the casings and spills the powder into the action. Handloads in general give me a headache but that is a pain a in the neck because you have to punch the bore with a rod. We see it mostly with guys shooting 260s.

After that, most other problems are 85% operator error. Issues loading the gun from a magazine, feed ramp issues from the bottom metal not at the proper height, etc. Mainly when that round binds from the magazine, people come too far back and double feed. Instead they should only come back a half an inch and the round will pop up then slide forward easier. Another big one is 10 rounds in the AICS magazine, they should really only use 9 in many of the after market actions.

 

[223ai]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL -

Not to hijack, but given that you've been behind the AE's and the AW's much more than me, would a shooter be giving up any reliability by shooting the AE over the AW?

Thanks,
Josh

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

No, especially with the MK 2, the AE is every bit as good as the AW, just a slightly different mission requirement. But a lot of the parts will easily interchange. In fact you can put either bolt in either rifle and it will work.

There were bigger differences with the GEN 1, but they eliminated most of those with the Mk 2.

 

[XOR]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep hearing about 700 style actions (including the customs) breaking down at matches. Bolts getting tight or more often then not getting stuck. Water freezes them shut. Sand and dust etc bind it up...especially if there is oil on it. </div></div>

I went to a shoot in the middle of a snow storm recently. There were eight rifles present: Two 700 LTRs, a GAP 700, another custom 700, custom 700 in AICS stock, a Savage, Sako TRG-22 and AIAW.

Two 700 bolts froze up and had to be thawed in front of a heater. Another 700 in an AICS had the trigger freeze in the rear position (may have not been a factory trigger just looking at the rig though). Some people had issues with 700 conversion detachable magazines freezing as well. An S&B scope leaked and froze internally (nothing to do with the rifle, just pointing it out). A Savage rifle broke an ejector.

The AIAW and Sako TRG worked the entire time with no major malfunctions.

I saw around a 50% failure rate in the 700 style actions and of course a 100% failure in the Savage. Granted there was only one AIAW and TRG but they didn't fail. But the 700s were a mess.

If I was looking to spend the kind of money to get a custom 700 I would seriously consider just getting a purpose built rifle like the AIAW or Sako instead.

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

In my opinion there is likely no better harsh weather platform than the AI-AW series. I have an AWM in 300 WM, and it is bombproof.