AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

[00037]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately my daughters doctor bills consumes enough of my budget that an AI is not an option. For a guy on a limited budget wanting to strike a balance between accuracy and reliability how would you proceed? </div></div>
Consider buying a used AI AE or AE MKII and an inexpensive scope to start out (the SWFA Super Sniper lineup comes to mind). Then, improve the glass if needed and if budget allows.

If an AE is out of range then Chiller's advice of a Rem 5R is solid.

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

So..... anyway...

I have a question. From what I'm reading, the two biggest problems with the R700 is the bolt handle breaking off and the user over tweaking the trigger, right?

Is there anyone out there that makes a "bullet proof" unbreakable bolt assembly?

I know that you can buy aftermarket bolt assemblies but are there any that are tougher then the rest?

This is for those of us that can't afford an AI yet...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have seen a bunch of different rifles come through classes and the better rifles always shine.

Not only that, better equipment in general gives the shooter, new or old peace of mind to focus on the Fundamentals of marksmanship. Too many people when they are first starting out, as well as a lot of older misunderstood shooters will attempt to blame things on the equipment before themselves. So with the better equipment it is easier to explain the diagnosis to them so they understand, "they screwed up" and not that their rifle is not as good as they hoped. Which we see that too, some stuff is just not as good as people think.

I can absolutely see the difference between my Surgeon and a stock Remington 700, my Surgeon shoots in the .2s the stock Remington does not. That has little to do with the action alone, but the builder of the rifle. I would expect my KMW to be a better shooter than something from the box. My Surgeon is probably more accurate than my AW too, but then again, the missions are different. Too many confuse accuracy with reliability as they are not the same as demonstrated in this thread. If am going to shoot the "Smack the Smilie" Competition on here, I am using the most accurate rifle in the stable... if am going to Zak's Steel Safari I am using the AW, not my benchrest tight tackdriver... because I know the AI will do 1/2 minute and still work, where a rifle that shoots 1/4 minute might be more accurate but less forgiving.

You have strike a balance, and understand the strengths and limitations of each system.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back on topic...

Thank you Zak and LL for this information, this is why I have lurked this site for several years and signed up recently.

Unfortunately my daughters doctor bills consumes enough of my budget that an AI is not an option. For a guy on a limited budget wanting to strike a balance between accuracy and reliability how would you proceed? </div></div>

I'm going to jump the gun here so to speak, and get back at Zak for so eloquently stating earlier in this thread exactly what I wanted to say. Take a look at Zak's article here: Practical Long Range Shooting and you'll get a good idea of options for your budget.

On the other hand, you can always consider just saving for a bit longer and going for an AE MkII. It's several thousand less than an AW, but will give you essentially the same performance-and as this thread quite adequately shows, they're truly some of the best rifles ever built. A basic fixed-stock AE will run in the vicinity of $3k (PM me for your price).

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Also note that a TRG-22 is in the mid $2000's.

 

[Doc1911]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most people who buy high end rifles expect that the rifle will make them a better shooter? Get a cheaper set up and save your money for good ammo.
</div></div>

Better equipment removes barriers to learning. In that sense a high end rifle can make you a better shooter faster, compared to buying a low-end setup. This doesn't mean you can't win a match using a Remington with a few tweaks if you are good. </div></div> Great truth.

AIs are accurate and make it simple, but of course it is more than just accuracy that ultimately counts - durability, reliability, etc.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I should note, that 1000s of people go their whole life shooting a 700 platform without an ounce of trouble, so don't take this to be an all or nothing proposition.

Just because we have seen a problem, doesn't mean you'll experience one.

 

[fisherman]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I see similar discussions concerning equipment in other areas. Like fly fishing, cycling, guns, etc. For me it is a question of what my research indicates are top quality choices and what I am willing to spend. I like nice, neat stuff and will pay for it. Nothing to do with my innate ability. Just like the best I can hide from my wife (LOL).

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I think the way that I would put it is not that you dont have the option to buy what you want, but that you might better better served in the long run purchasing something relatively inexpensive.

I personally like a heavy barreled bolt action .22.

Build the fundamentals. Get a relatively inexpensive mid-range scope ($500-$1000) which will probably cost as much as the rest of your rifle rig.

For $1000-$1500 including glass, you now have something you can put 500 rounds through for $30. Use that trigger time to build your fundamentals. First at 50 yards. Once you can place the rounds in a pretty tight group, then move to 100, then eventually to 200 when you have mastered at 100.

At 200, then you get to explore the influence of wind on a small round like the .22. This experience is actually fairly well scalable to the way that a heavier round interacts with environmental conditions at 1000 or so yards.

The main thing is that if you get the expensive gun, yes you can build your experience. Yes you can learn. Its going to be a lot more expensive, and in all likelyhood you will have a greater opportunity for trigger time when you can put 100 rounds down range for the cost of 5-10 rounds of the other gun.

The added bonus here is that once you have fired 5000 rounds or something like that over the course of a year with your trainer rifle, you probably know what you personally like and dont about that rifle. You probably know what you need most in a rifle. And you can invest money in your higher dollar platform more efficiently.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

When you look at paying for training, matches, and travel, or even just ammo and fuel to get to the local shooting range, the costs of those "consumable" items will in just a couple of years, eclipse the fixed, one-time costs of even an expensive rifle and scope. Yet, a high-end rifle and scope is less likely to waste your time and money by going down, having problems, etc. The high fixed cost rifle/scope will actually help to protect your ongoing investment in shooting. That was one of the arguments I made in my Part I article

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The high fixed cost rifle/scope will actually help to protect your ongoing investment in shooting. That was one of the arguments I made in my Part I article
</div></div>

I would say you are right, for someone going from basics to improving your skill.

I think in the beginning when you are still establishing some of the fundamentals, I prefer more trigger time to get those down and THEN move to the 308 or whatever caliber I really want and invest in a good rifle for the long term that will take me from "ok i know some of the basics" into some classes, through some competitions, as I continue to build my skill and experience

 

[gugubica]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

There is some good advice in this thread and some...uh...strange too. I think I understand what TerryG was saying (but I don't agree with it).

I think it is important to point out that the OP has been a member here for over 6 years. That does not in and of itself point to his ability, but it does show that he has been into this tactical shooting thing for quite a while. I would be willing to bet that he has been through the beginning shooter phase.

I often recomend starting with a .22 or lower end rifle, but only to develop skills and make sure this type of thing is for you before you drop a ton of cash.

A good stock Remmy is going to be a great rifle for most shooters, they simply do not introduce the kind of punishment that we do to thier rifles. Most only shoot on their local range when the weather is nice...we don't, my rifle needs to perform without question in any conditions at any temperature in any location. I have been through several high end customs and have found happiness with an AIAE Mark II. It works, period.

That is the distinction that needs to be made, this disipline requires a different set of minimum standards than others. We need our shit to work, period. AIs do that. Plus, they are just freakin sexy...

 

[pupdawg]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should replace custom with high end? I am trying to say that AIAW is like Ferrari. They offer more accessories than any other model out there?</div></div>

What you should say, is you are making no sense and simply are emotionally invested in your Surgeon, so you'll use what ever justification you can to maintain your point.

That would be the honest answer </div></div>

I agree.

terryg - what "accessories" you are referring to?

 

[TonyTRG]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also note that a TRG-22 is in the mid $2000's.
</div></div>

How do you rate the TRG22 for reliability in comparison to the AW? I'm well aware that the AI stock is more robust than the Sako, but my question is more about the reliability of the action and trigger. Accuracy is obviously not an issue with either rifle for their purpose.

 

[pupdawg]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyTRG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also note that a TRG-22 is in the mid $2000's.
</div></div>

How do you rate the TRG22 for reliability in comparison to the AW? I'm well aware that the AI stock is more robust than the Sako, but my question is more about the reliability of the action and trigger. Accuracy is obviously not an issue with either rifle for their purpose. </div></div>

Zaks friend Ray shoots a TRG42. They did a "comparison" review of both rifles a while back (I cant find it though).

Bottom line, BOTH are reliable/overly capable and Zak loves his AW... and just likes the TRG. haha! jk

 

[chrisj]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KingKong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. Water freezes them shut.
</div></div>

Not true. At least i couldnt froze it shut and i hunt/train in very cold weather. Whit shitty lubrication you will get any kind of gun to freeze.

I dont trust Remigtons bolt handle that much. i feel that it cant take that much of punishment.
</div></div>

I beg to differ...I was hunting and it was around 32 degress and raining. Just before dark the tempereature dropped like a rock. I never got a shot off, but tried to open the action to remove the round in the chamber and I couldn't open the action. The lug recess got water in it and it froze the bolt. I have NEVER had one malfunction in any AI's that I have owned or fired, but I haven't taken them out in theis type of weather either.

 

[Tyris]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

Excellent thread discussing the 700, AI and briefly touching on the TRG.
What about a new comer like the DTA SRS?

Presumably this is a purpose built platform, engineered from the ground up as a tactical rifle with durability in mind.

Any first hand experience and comparisons vs the TRG and AI ?

-T

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

+10000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you look at paying for training, matches, and travel, or even just ammo and fuel to get to the local shooting range, the costs of those "consumable" items will in just a couple of years, eclipse the fixed, one-time costs of even an expensive rifle and scope. Yet, a high-end rifle and scope is less likely to waste your time and money by going down, having problems, etc. The high fixed cost rifle/scope will actually help to protect your ongoing investment in shooting. That was one of the arguments I made in my Part I article
</div></div>

 

[Lindy]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Jacob Bynum has an AW which is on its 10th barrel, with over 90,000 rounds through it.

Think about the initial cost of that rifle, as opposed to the cost of the ammunition which has been through it.

Aside from barrel replacements, it's had one repair. The bolt stop broke. It was repaired at no cost by a handy armorer who happened to be on site with his tools.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

like to know where he gets his deal on ammo. 90k rds of 308 lol

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I don't have any firsthand experience with the TRG-22 (the .308 rifle).

Ray's TRG-42 performs very well; however, I don't have a lot of reliability data on it because we usually cannot shoot .338LM in field matche

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have a TRG22 in fact I have had 2, the are very good rifles.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

With regard to newcomers-- in my opinion, these new designs have <span style="font-style: italic">everything to prove</span>. The AI and TRG have been proven in military service around the globe for a couple decades.

Even if they are designed, engineered, and built great, the proof happens in the field, not how sexy they look at SHOT show.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I am lucky to be able to put together a rifle that would have to be considered budget compared to an AW.
After popping a primer in a swagged primer pocket my extractor failed in my even more budget Savage. (yup, handload problems) And yeah, see how your next station goes after an ordeal like that.
I wanted a bigger extractor after that and went with a FN. I never heard of a problem with the safety until now. Hopefully it won't be an issue for me. Time will tell.
Not that I had a lot of options...
Good tip on the AI mags too. Thanks.

 

[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL,

I suggest we make this thread a sticky; there is a lot of good information here.

 

[gliechty]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have no doubt that the AIAW went through a transition to make the battle hardened rifle that it is. Nothing comes out of the box perfect.

Point is, they didn't stop until it was a great battle rifle. It was not ever intended to be a safe queen or look cool. Just perform better than anything on the planet. That has to be admired!

The M700 was designed to be mass produced for as little as possible and then the transition happened. Like the J-lock and X-mark triggers, and firing pin holes that don't allow you to read pressures off the primer.

Both transitioned, one for one purpose, the other for another.

This comparison kind reminds me of comparing an Apache to a VW bus!

 

[gugubica]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good tip on the AI mags too. Thanks. </div></div>

Correct me if I am wrong, LL, but I think the problem he was refering to is inserting a full mag into a closed bolt rifle. Many rifles will not like it if the mag is full, and run better with a 9 round mag.

One more area where I am happy with my AE, a full mag presents no problem. Either way, this is something you need to play with, so you know for sure in your rifle.

 

[19818119]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

This has been a very interesting thread.

I had some shooting experience growing up as a kid in South Africa, I fell out of the sport for a number of years (by circumstance rather than choice) and upon reentry into shooting I followed the "buy once cry once" mantra that seems prevalent amongst shooters with more experience than I.

I had the smith widely considered the best in Australia put a rifle based on a Surgeon Action with a lot of the best gear available. I wold never say that I'm unhappy with the build or the rifle but if I had to do it all again I would get an AI and be happy for the simple piece of mind that comes with knowing your gear is as reliable as it gets.

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the reliability highlight reel
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

No bias there at all then Frank!

All the best,

Neil

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the reliability highlight reel
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

No bias there at all then Frank!

All the best,

Neil</div></div>

It is not my video, I was not present nor did I have anything to do with the competition... However the facts are the facts... there would have been no reel if these other rifles didn't screw up.

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

seen that video a few time and it is just painful, that Tubb gun and the other for that matter were getting their asses kicked. You could add the Barrett to that list after the beating it took from S. Texas sand driven by rotor wash.

 

[19818119]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The other issue I have seen is with the Surgeons, they bounce the empty brass back into the action, causing problems. Preston's answer I have heard repeated is, "don't run the bolt like they do at RIfles Only", but I also know its happening more often, however there is a fix, as I know GAP has wrenched on them and removed the problem. The RSR seems to be fine, its the one with the built in rail that seems to do this. I also know we have screwed up the Lawton's pretty bad as well.

LL, can you expand on the type of of problems this can cause? I am certain that my Surgeon does this but aside from chipping away at the duracoat and possibly damaging the brass I'm unsure how it would effect reliability?

Thanks,
Rath

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

If you have an empty piece of brass in the action, how do you run the bolt ?

What happens is, it pulls the spent casing out, spins it around and deposits it back into the action.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I guess a lot of people missed the thread about the video from two years ago. I'd post a link if I could find it.

In case anyone is totally oblivious to its tone: it light-heartedly pokes fun at some problems some rifles had at the Steel Safari. Around the same time (c.a. 2008) there were some threads on SH about reliability and durability of certain match rifles. As match director, I can rove around the course and observe maybe a half dozen or ten shooters each day-- that's out of over 30 shooters so I am witnessing a minority.

However, I did capture two spectacular "meltdowns", which occurred as recorded.

I've shot AI rifles since 2005, and I know about their reliability first-hand. Since I had some footage of VNGunfighter shooting his AWM at the same match, it was natural to juxtapose the malfunctioning rifles with the AI to demonstrate the point that all rifles are not created equal.

Does that make it "biased"? Who knows. The only time I've witnessed a similar "meltdown" on an AI rifle was in 2005 when a big-name shooter was using 155's seated well into the lands and during a brainfart tried to eject a loaded round-- bullet got stuck and powder got everywhere. I would rate that as
100% operator error.

In the interest of fairness, I once got some crud in my chamber and had to swab it out, and one other time a pebble about the size of a pea bounced into my open bolt, got stuck in the receiver lugs, and I ended up crushing it with the bolt lugs by mistake - no damage done. I rate those two items as rare fluke events that would put any rifle down for a short period of time.

Like I said before, at the matches out here, when conditions are such that rifles start to have problems, the AI's are as a rule immune to those same effects.

 

[00037]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good tip on the AI mags too. Thanks. </div></div>

Correct me if I am wrong, LL, but I think the problem he was refering to is inserting a full mag into a closed bolt rifle. Many rifles will not like it if the mag is full, and run better with a 9 round mag.</div></div>
AW mags actually hold 11 rounds so they're already downloaded one. Loading only 9 would be overkill.

AICS mags might be a different story. I don't own any AICS mags.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However the facts are the facts... there would have been no reel if these other rifles didn't screw up.</div></div>
Nice! 100% true.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

If it's painful to watch the T2K on the video, imagine watching it happen in person...

 

[Graham]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have an empty piece of brass in the action, how do you run the bolt ?
What happens is, it pulls the spent casing out, spins it around and deposits it back into the action. </div></div>Yup. Makes your Surgeon a single shot.

Moon has a fix, though: extend the ejection port.

The problem appears to be that when you run the bolt hard the empty brass remains engaged by the extractor until the body of the case is behind the opening of the port. When the extractor cuts the case loose the bottom third of the case hits the side of the port opening, spins the case 180 degrees, and deposits the empty case in the action backwards.

I sent Preston what I thought was a polite PM explaining the problem. He read it and deleted it. I never received an answer.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: modifier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good tip on the AI mags too. Thanks. </div></div>

Correct me if I am wrong, LL, but I think the problem he was refering to is inserting a full mag into a closed bolt rifle. Many rifles will not like it if the mag is full, and run better with a 9 round mag.</div></div>
AW mags actually hold 11 rounds so they're already downloaded one. Loading only 9 would be overkill.

AICS mags might be a different story. I don't own any AICS mags.</div></div>

I am talking about AICS mags only not AW, apples and oranges... catch up here.

 

[00037]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Ahh, I missed that detail (obviously).

Edit: found where you mentioned it on page 2. Consider me caught up.

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been shooting since I was 11. I am now 38. I have a wife and 2 children. I have worked for my self for the past 11 years. I have competed in the CMP on and off for many years. Shooting is my hobby. I can tell you that Neither the AW or Surgeon shoot any better than the stock 5R rem 700. I can shoot better than most. I feel that if one overloads himself with too much of a investment early on, they will only feel disappointment. </div></div>

Mate, I've got a Landrover older than you!

I started shooting when I was about 6 or 7 with an airgun. I started shooting full bore when I was 11, owned my first handgun when I was 18 (bought AND paid for myself, and I was still at school).
I'm now 44 (God, that's a shocker! My brain still thinks my body is 18!!!), shooting is not a hobby for me, it's been a lifelong, all consuming passion. I've been a Hider for a couple of years now I guess, but I would NEVER say that I'm a better shot than most.

Even with the experience I have gathered over the years, and believe me, that learning curve got a whole lot steeper when I joined the Hide, I AM STILL A NOVICE!

What I can tell you is this, if Zac Smith, or Frank (LL) tell you something, shut the fuck up and listen.

Oh, and if you're <span style="font-style: italic">THAT</span> good, lets see some of those bragging groups, shot at 8 or 900 yards.

No, you don't get to see mine, I don't have any because I know I'm not that good, but I listen to Frank and Zac and I'm LEARNING.

I'll get off my soap box now and give it back to Frank, so we can see eye to eye.

Neil

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'll get off my soap box now and give it back to Frank, so we can see eye to eye.

Neil </div></div>

Frank will need two soap boxes and a phone book to see eye to eye with me......

Stolen from CKA

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendocino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL,

I suggest we make this thread a sticky; there is a lot of good information here. </div></div>

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of distilling out the good stuff, and all the data referring to the OP and THEN making it a sticky.

Frank and Zac, can you do this, please?

By sheer damn blind luck, and a lack of cash, it seems I might have bought the correct Surgeon action. If I had the info this thread contains, I could have made a more informed decision........

Thanks,

Neil

 

[gugubica]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: modifier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good tip on the AI mags too. Thanks. </div></div>

Correct me if I am wrong, LL, but I think the problem he was refering to is inserting a full mag into a closed bolt rifle. Many rifles will not like it if the mag is full, and run better with a 9 round mag.</div></div>
AW mags actually hold 11 rounds so they're already downloaded one. Loading only 9 would be overkill.

AICS mags might be a different story. I don't own any AICS mags.</div></div>

I am talking about AICS mags only not AW, apples and oranges... catch up here. </div></div>
Yup, only AICS mags.I have not seen this happen in any AIs, but AICS mags have become the quasi standard for aftermarket bottom metal, so if your rifle uses them, you should test it hard before assuming that you can run full mags at a comp.

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the reliability highlight reel
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zu9JEoHMBPA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

No bias there at all then Frank!

All the best,

Neil</div></div>

It is not my video, I was not present nor did I have anything to do with the competition... However the facts are the facts... there would have been no reel if these other rifles didn't screw up. </div></div>

Sorry Frank, I should have added one of these;

I was only taking the piss...

N

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Does that make it "biased"? Who knows.

<span style="font-style: italic">Zac, I was just funin with y'all</span>

one other time a pebble about the size of a pea bounced into my open bolt, got stuck in the receiver lugs, and I ended up crushing it with the bolt lugs by mistake - no damage done.
</div></div>
That's just AWESOME!

Now I need to convince the Wife I need <span style="font-style: italic">another</span> rifle!

(It's OK dear, this one is second hand, so it's quite cheap really....)

N

 

[aqualung]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeah well Chiller, I'm only 5'9", so I'm thinking only the 1 soap box is necessary!

Neil

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeah, once the rock was crushed it ran fine but I ended up with crushed-rock sand in my lugs, etc. I later removed the barrel to make sure I got everything out of the thread area. With the AI that's like a five minute job.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am talking about AICS mags only not AW, apples and oranges... catch up here. </div></div>

Yep, my bad. AICS

Long day. Pretty much hit the wall.
It is Friday though!

 

[19818119]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have an empty piece of brass in the action, how do you run the bolt ?

What happens is, it pulls the spent casing out, spins it around and deposits it back into the action. </div></div>

I figured after I posted that this is what you meant, my Surgeon 591 throws the brass back into the rifle just behind the action breech so there is no brass going directly into the action but it definitely does eject the brass back into the rifle.