AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

[Onemoretime]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All my AWs have the dovetail mount, and I use the standard AI base/ring combo.

you're free to pick any scope you like, I tend to use the same 3 brands with equal satisfaction, which I won't go into, but its not rocket science to determine my choices . </div></div>

NF, S&B, and ....... Hensoldt?

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL, Since it is not rocket science
BSA,TASCO, and SUPER SNIPER. LOL...LOL...

okay, Maybe I will give My AW a little more use...

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL, what do you think about the Badger action?

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I broke the bolt handle on my remmy 7 police .308 with not a lot of force. The metal of the handle was honeycombed with air bubbles, looked like a cheap piece of crap and performed like one. Have had an AI and now a TRG and the build quality and feel of both are way better than the remmy.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

one thing I've learned is that any future 700s I build won't be coated with anything...internally action parts. Will do the outside but not the inside of the reciever or the bolt

Also will put my trigger at 3lbs. And stick with the factory SS.

Going to change the ejector spring and trigger springs to wolff.

 

[Cegorach]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Really interesting thread, it has given me some new food for thought.

I have to say this is making me a little bit nervous about the Surgeon that will be on my new build. The rifle will be seeing plenty of use and the adverse conditions that it inevitably entails. I have had my 700 gum up a few times, but never to the point of locking up or failing completely.

I have heard plenty of reports of Jewells failing in gritty conditions, but I have never been around them to see it first hand. Has anyone had any issues with Timneys going tits-up in the field?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Many people don't have any problems, as only a small percentage of shooters run them to their maximum potential.

As far as the Surgeon build, you'll probably have no issues, Preston does a nice job overall, and the issues that pop up are usually limited to a specific set of circumstances.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

also not going to do the "match" chamber anymore. Try to copy the AI chamber if I can find the specs.

 

[cazorp]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Obviously AW is the better choice compared to almost anything when it comes to reliability since we Swede's had a saying in the development of that rifle, and here in Sweden we always prepare for the worst, including aliens..

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

lol

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AIAW and Sako TRG worked the entire time with no major malfunctions. </div></div>
I guess it's still a surprise to some that modern bolt action rifles designed from the ground up for hard use in harsh environments excel and what are essentially sporterized 50-100 year old actions have problems.

 

[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also not going to do the "match" chamber anymore. Try to copy the AI chamber if I can find the specs. </div></div>

...so you are still not convinced to buy an AI? Why try and "copy" it?

 

[ptd]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendocino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also not going to do the "match" chamber anymore. Try to copy the AI chamber if I can find the specs. </div></div>

...so you are still not convinced to buy an AI? Why try and "copy" it? </div></div>

Good artists copy, great artists steal?

-pd

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...so you are still not convinced to buy an AI? Why try and "copy" it?</div></div>
Dude, this is the <span style="font-style: italic">internet</span>! You should expect no less!

 

[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...so you are still not convinced to buy an AI? Why try and "copy" it?</div></div>
Dude, this is the <span style="font-style: italic">internet</span>! You should expect no less! </div></div>

Thirsty horses still need to be led to water...

Now, back to handloading for Sunday.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I <span style="font-style: italic">knew</span> there was something I was supposed to be doing.

 

[300WSM]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

oh I'm convinced.

Just saying if I build another 700.

 

[Mendocino]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh I'm convinced.

Just saying if I build another 700. </div></div>

[Obiwankenobevoiceon]"300WSM step into the light."[/Obiwankenobevoiceoff]

 

[WesP]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

LL you said you saw a few FN rifles jam up... how do they stack up overall in the reliability department? You mentioned something with the safety, that could actually be from an aftermarket trigger as well couldnt it?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I don't believe so the safety is on the bolt and these were agency rifles I am not aware they had aftermarket triggers. I believe they are stock triggers.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Interesting thread, and great insights.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Here is what I see on this thread. No one is modifying the AIAW when they get it. On the other hand it seems everyone is modifying there custom 700? If you get a Surgeon 591 from Gap or Surgeon (Scalpel) you leave it alone when you get your hands on it. I believe 99% of these failures are do to people who don't know how to shoot or build guns.

Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.

Yes the AIAW is a mil-spec gun. Call them and talk to them they are great guys with funny accents. They are build high end custom bolt guns. They have all the problems that every other custom builder has. High end Machine shops are to say the least tricky to run, hence the collapse of AI in 2005. Customer service is priority one when it comes to the custom bolt world.

Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Who are you to say what people can and can't do with their money?

 

[cazorp]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what I see on this thread. No one is modifying the AIAW when they get it. On the other hand it seems everyone is modifying there custom 700? If you get a Surgeon 591 from Gap or Surgeon (Scalpel) you leave it alone when you get your hands on it. I believe 99% of these failures are do to people who don't know how to shoot or build guns.

Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.

Yes the AIAW is a mil-spec gun. Call them and talk to them they are great guys with funny accents. They are build high end custom bolt guns. They have all the problems that every other custom builder has. High end Machine shops are to say the least tricky to run, hence the collapse of AI in 2005. Customer service is priority one when it comes to the custom bolt world.

Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors. </div></div>

If I understand you correctly, you think AI AW is "High end Custom rifles" - I'd like to oppose that, AI AW's are "High end no custom", but made the same way as they've been produced for more than 20 years now. Sure they do smaller improvements to the basic construction every now and then, but the options as far as the mechanism are none.. pick and chose, .308 or .243, with a few options of barrel length, muzzle brake, mounts etc.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what I see on this thread. No one is modifying the AIAW when they get it. On the other hand it seems everyone is modifying there custom 700? If you get a Surgeon 591 from Gap or Surgeon (Scalpel) you leave it alone when you get your hands on it. I believe 99% of these failures are do to people who don't know how to shoot or build guns.

Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.

Yes the AIAW is a mil-spec gun. Call them and talk to them they are great guys with funny accents. They are build high end custom bolt guns. They have all the problems that every other custom builder has. High end Machine shops are to say the least tricky to run, hence the collapse of AI in 2005. Customer service is priority one when it comes to the custom bolt world.

Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors. </div></div>

what??????

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

The AW is not custom, by definition. The rifles are essentially identical [with interchangeable parts], with [very] small product improvements making their way into the design over the span of years/decades.

 

[desertHK]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what I see on this thread. No one is modifying the AIAW when they get it. On the other hand it seems everyone is modifying there custom 700? If you get a Surgeon 591 from Gap or Surgeon (Scalpel) you leave it alone when you get your hands on it. I believe 99% of these failures are do to people who don't know how to shoot or build guns.

Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.

Yes the AIAW is a mil-spec gun. Call them and talk to them they are great guys with funny accents. They are build high end custom bolt guns. They have all the problems that every other custom builder has. High end Machine shops are to say the least tricky to run, hence the collapse of AI in 2005. Customer service is priority one when it comes to the custom bolt world.

Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors. </div></div>


What??? Are you serious?

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I should replace custom with high end? I am trying to say that AIAW is like Ferrari. They offer more accessories than any other model out there?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should replace custom with high end? I am trying to say that AIAW is like Ferrari. They offer more accessories than any other model out there?</div></div>

What you should say, is you are making no sense and simply are emotionally invested in your Surgeon, so you'll use what ever justification you can to maintain your point.

That would be the honest answer

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should replace custom with high end? I</div></div>
Well, did you mean custom or high end? Different words have different meanings. If you say X and mean Y don't get upset when everyone tells you that X doesn't make sense.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I am trying to say that most shooters are not worthy of such high end rifle. You must pay your dues to really appreciate such a weapon (AIAW-Surgeon). If not you will spend a lot of money and completely frustrate yourself. Hey Match ammo cost 1 dollar a round now, classes? Do the math. This is not cheap skill to develop.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

No it most certainly isnt the the cheap skill nor sport. "Worthy of a high end rifle"?????? Dare I ask what you shoot, who do i need to see about "Paying My Dues" so owning my "High End Rifles" isnt such a no no?

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.
...
Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors. </div></div>
Dude, this just doesn't make sense. A new shooter will learn better using a better rifle. It will fit him better, be more accurate, and leave far fewer variables to chance than an off the shelf Remington. A high quality rifle accelerates the shooter's progress on his learning curve. A factory rifle with a series of obstacles to overcome only serves to add frustration and delay learning. These obstacles might be physical rifle fit due to non-adjustability of stock setup, it might be accuracy, or consistency, or a poor trigger, the list goes on.

You buy an AW and there is nothing you need to do other than feed it ammunition and learn to shoot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am trying to say that most shooters are not worthy of such high end rifle. You must pay your dues to
really appreciate such a weapon (AIAW-Surgeon). If not you will spend a lot of money and completely
frustrate yourself. Hey Match ammo cost 1 dollar a round now, classes? Do the math. This is not cheap skill
to develop.
</div></div>
Again, LOGIC FAIL.

By this logic, the shooter should pay $1 per round to shoot through a rifle that is set up worse, less accurate, and has more things to fix and/or problems to overcome.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have both the AIAW and Surgeon Scalpel in 308. I love them both. I have worked all over the world involved in high end machine shops. The high end gunsmiths are anything but standardized. I guess I am trying to say that every part is hand fitted, which in my eyes is custom.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am trying to say that most shooters are not worthy of such high end rifle. You must pay your dues to really appreciate such a weapon (AIAW-Surgeon). If not you will spend a lot of money and completely frustrate yourself. Hey Match ammo cost 1 dollar a round now, classes? Do the math. This is not cheap skill to develop. </div></div>

Completely bullshit... and who are you to decide who is worthy of anything.

And for your information, I have seen the problems with the Surgeon with more than worthy shooters... guys with more experience than I can count. In fact they notice it more to be a problem than those shooters with less experience. I happen to own both, including a boat load of 700 clones, like the Surgeon and I don't shoot any of them different than the other.

You're posts make absolutely no sense what so ever.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guess I am trying to say that every part is hand fitted, which in my eyes is custom.
</div></div>
Then go ahead and explain how I can take 3 AI-AW's, screw off the barrels and take the bolts apart, mix up all the parts, and reassemble them and they will all be in spec?

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

terryg, just stop. You are making an ass out of yourself.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Every part may be hand fitted.....but seeing how it is, that i can grab an AI AW from 1999 and one that just rolled off the line and swap parts at my leisure, seems to me that they have it pretty "standardized"......probably best if you just back out of this conversation at this point with your ridiculous logic.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have both the AIAW and Surgeon Scalpel in 308. I love them both. I have worked all over the world involved in high end machine shops. The high end gunsmiths are anything but standardized. I guess I am trying to say that every part is hand fitted, which in my eyes is custom. </div></div>

what have you done to "pay your dues" that allows you to own such awesomeness?

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I guess I have upset everyone today? I simply want to say that don't make the same mistakes I have made in the past. Most people who buy high end rifles expect that the rifle will make them a better shooter? Get a cheaper set up and save your money for good ammo.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what I see on this thread. No one is modifying the AIAW when they get it. On the other hand it seems everyone is modifying there custom 700? If you get a Surgeon 591 from Gap or Surgeon (Scalpel) you leave it alone when you get your hands on it. I believe 99% of these failures are do to people who don't know how to shoot or build guns.

Let me say this to. Don't buy a Surgeon Scalpel or a AIAW if you dont have years of experience with a bolt gun shooting!!! You should also take some shooting classes and then shoot a couple of competitions. Then and only then go out and buy a super high end rifle.

Yes the AIAW is a mil-spec gun. Call them and talk to them they are great guys with funny accents. They are build high end custom bolt guns. They have all the problems that every other custom builder has. High end Machine shops are to say the least tricky to run, hence the collapse of AI in 2005. Customer service is priority one when it comes to the custom bolt world.

Do the world a favor a buy a 5r rem and then shoot 5000 rds or so. Do some matches talk to your competitors. </div></div>

Terry,

A bit of advice, quit while you are behind.

We do not live in a socialist state where everyone is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and everybody runs a XYZ rifle. If you want a Surgeon, get a Surgeon. If you want an AI, get an AI. That is why there is Chocolate and Vanilla.

If you are looking for the ultimate in accuracy I suspect the AI is not your rifle. If you are looking for the ultimate in durability and longevity, I suspect it is one on a very short list.

If my life depended on my rifle I would strongly be considering the AI. In that it does not I am free to choose whatever platform I would like independent of my competency or skill level.

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have been shooting since I was 11. I am now 38. I have a wife and 2 children. I have worked for my self for the past 11 years. I have competed in the CMP on and off for many years. Shooting is my hobby. I can tell you that Neither the AW or Surgeon shoot any better than the stock 5R rem 700. I can shoot better than most. I feel that if one overloads himself with too much of a investment early on, they will only feel disappointment.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most people who buy high end rifles expect that the rifle will make them a better shooter? Get a cheaper set up and save your money for good ammo.
</div></div>

Better equipment removes barriers to learning. In that sense a high end rifle can make you a better shooter faster, compared to buying a low-end setup. This doesn't mean you can't win a match using a Remington with a few tweaks if you are good.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been shooting since I was 11. I am now 38. I have a wife and 2 children. I have worked for my self for the past 11 years. I have competed in the CMP on and off for many years. Shooting is my hobby. <span style="font-weight: bold">I can tell you that Neither the AW or Surgeon shoot any better than the stock 5R rem 700.</span> I can shoot better than most. I feel that if one overloads himself with too much of a investment early on, they will only feel disappointment. </div></div>

By this, if you cant tell that your 5R shoots any better than your Surgeon or AW...then obviously you aint as good as you would like to think.... Frank has a quote that is something along these lines

"Men think they are the best fuckers,fighters, and shooters....most times the result is alot less impressive" Just sayin.....

 

[terrygood]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

That's it I quit. You are all missing the point. Why is it that everyone wants to turn a thread into a argument? I love shooting and shooters. The sport needs more of a following.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most people who buy high end rifles expect that the rifle will make them a better shooter?</div></div>

Plenty of people own Ferraris without being able to drive like Michael Schumacher.

I'd agree that ownership of such rifles (or cars) won't automatically improve your technique or abilities - but IMHO owning anything that is capable of more performance than you may be able (or need) to extract keeps you honest and shows you just how much room for improvement you may have!

 

[Dirty D]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Back on topic...

Thank you Zak and LL for this information, this is why I have lurked this site for several years and signed up recently.

Unfortunately my daughters doctor bills consumes enough of my budget that an AI is not an option. For a guy on a limited budget wanting to strike a balance between accuracy and reliability how would you proceed?

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's it I quit. You are all missing the point. Why is it that everyone wants to turn a thread into a argument? I love shooting and shooters. The sport needs more of a following. </div></div>

Terry,

I strongly believe why this became adversarial is that you made what appear to be a declarative statement that we are not worthy to have whatever rifle our heart and pocketbook desires.

I do believe that as a shooting community we need to find more common ground and not be quick to anger. That being said you also need to understand your audience. In that even the most reserved and calm amongst us are still likely type A personalities.

 

[bonneville]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

What a great thread.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back on topic...

Thank you Zak and LL for this information, this is why I have lurked this site for several years and signed up recently.

Unfortunately my daughters doctor bills consumes enough of my budget that an AI is not an option. For a guy on a limited budget wanting to strike a balance between accuracy and reliability how would you proceed? </div></div>

Remington 5R (get a better trigger, the X-Mark blows)