Amp plates 'legal' in NRL22?

[JaoeyP]

I am not a complainer, but the entire idea is that monthly matches are standardized. Not following the COF is not at all cool if anyone from your match is posting scores.

So the way the NRL22 points work, to my understanding, is the club winner of a class is awarded 100 points, with subsequent club particpants being awarded points proportionate of their score to the winner's score. Example- winner scores 480, my score is 330, for the NRL22 points race, I would be awarded 68 points (330/480). Since it's based off of each club's participants' scores, it's plenty fair.

It doesn't matter say if our club's Open Class winner only scores 480 with KYL plates substituted for the paper targets, and another club's Open Class winner scores 500 using paper targets- in the NRL22 points race, they're both awarded 100 points. The use of a KYL rack in place of the paper targets in no way diminishes your "posted" score.

 

[hlee]

Actually it kind of does. Or it can. On steel, a hit is a hit. An edge hit, or as often as not a hit on the stem (especially on that little 0.25" bugger), counts the same as a center punch. I guess it comes down to comparing the paper targets to the steel targets (size and shape), and rules about what is and is not a hit on steel and paper. While everyone at the match is on the same field, deviating from the proscribed COF violates the premise of publishing a course of fire.

If you're going to say; "here are the rules, but they are open to interpretation and selective enforcement, and we have another set of rules you don't know about, and this is all subject to change based on my mood," why have the rules?

 

[davere]

The bipod is assumed as part of the rifle. Unless stated “unsupported” bipod is allowed.

Just curious (seriously - not being snarky) - where is that stated in the rules? I realize that's how things are frequently done in practice, just based on convention in precision rifle. But, it seems like maybe NRL doesn't see it that way (based on Tyler's post earlier in the thread)

 

[davere]

Actually it kind of does. Or it can. On steel, a hit is a hit. An edge hit, or as often as not a hit on the stem (especially on that little 0.25" bugger), counts the same as a center punch. I guess it comes down to comparing the paper targets to the steel targets (size and shape), and rules about what is and is not a hit on steel and paper. While everyone at the match is on the same field, deviating from the proscribed COF violates the premise of publishing a course of fire.

Exactly my point for asking about this earlier in the thread, but better said/positioned than my post!

 

[10ring1]

. Far better to know not to bring (and stop practicing with) a piece of ineligible equipment than to be surprised at a match that it can't be used.

Yes! The exact reason for the question that started this thread.

 

[Rthur]

From what I've gathered from this thread, it is likely that he doesn't have any idea either...

We keep it simple.
Bipod
Sling
Bag smaller than a volleyball.

R

 

[spife7980]

My interpretation:
NRL22 rules = Calvin Ball

 

[trophyhunter]

Just curious (seriously - not being snarky) - where is that stated in the rules? I realize that's how things are frequently done in practice, just based on convention in precision rifle. But, it seems like maybe NRL doesn't see it that way (based on Tyler's post earlier in the thread)

Well I spent a bit looking for it, but didn’t find anything. It’s always been implied that a bipod can be used in any stage that doesn’t specify “unsupported”. In the past that was 1 separate stage, here lately they’ve been spreading out those 10rds throughout the other 4 stages to make it more challenging and what I hope deter the use of 2 rifles. A few used a lite semi auto for unsupported stages and their heavy match rifle for barricade & prone stages.

 

[10ring1]

That brings up a great question... can you/any rules against using 2 rifles if you are "open class" and stay with open class setup? Does the shooter register "open"/'base' or is it the gun that is entered?

 

[AbbyKatt]

I think that allowing a shooter to use 2 different rifles during a match is completely wrong. I was floored when I heard it was done at Nationals! To me, this is gaming at its worst. I never expected that it would be an allowed, unwritten, rule.

 

[lash]

I think that allowing a shooter to use 2 different rifles during a match is completely wrong. I was floored when I heard it was done at Nationals! To me, this is gaming at its worst. I never expected that it would be an allowed, unwritten, rule.

Wow! That never occurred to me and would not be allowed here. This isn’t a 2-gun or 3-gun match.

 

[billmeek]

I often use 2 different rifles for shooting NRL within the same match. I talked about it with the local match director before building a lite rifle. My primary 10/22 is a fairly heavy. I use a much lighter weight 10/22 built specifically for positional since it doesn't cause nearly as much arthritic pain. If it wasn't for the lighter rifle, I might not shoot NRL22 matches.

The way I see it, anyone has the option of swapping out rifles between courses of fire if they want.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[davere]

So, we're worried about attaching a little plate to a rifle... but we can just swap the whole frickin' rifle between stages? You'll excuse me while I die laughing.

So, I can build an ultralight rifle for the unsupported stages, a rifle with a benchrest style, 6" wide foreend stock for the barricade style stages (no gamer plate... instead, I've got a gamer stock), and a third rifle built relatively heavy with a normal width foreend for when I have to stuff the rifle into a port or something. Have a got that right?

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, we're worried about attaching a little plate to a rifle... but we can just swap the whole frickin' rifle between stages? You'll excuse me while I die laughing.

So, I can build an ultralight rifle for the unsupported stages, a rifle with a benchrest style, 6" wide foreend stock for the barricade style stages (no gamer plate... instead, I've got a gamer stock), and a third rifle built relatively heavy with a normal width foreend for when I have to stuff the rifle into a port or something. Have a got that right?

Yep.....

 

[chopit]

The rules are CLEAR right.

 

[chopit]

Should you pay 2 entrance fees since you are using 2 rifles? Does the centerfire allow 2 guns?

 

[lash]

Should you pay 2 entrance fees since you are using 2 rifles? Does the centerfire allow 2 guns?

Yup.
And nope.

 

[reynja]

I don't think you need to pay two fees to use all the rifles you have or want to use, as long as you only shoot the COF one time. This is inclusive AF! I can't wait!

 

[davere]

Yup.
And nope.

Yeah... NRL "big gun" rules, Section 4, B.3 = "The shooter should only use one rifle for the competition. If the competitor’s rifle has a malfunction, the shooter shall be able to use a backup or loaner rifle so long as the replacement is of similar caliber. The Match Director must be notified when an equipment malfunction occurs. The shooter shall demonstrate the failure to the match director and obtain permission to utilize the backup rifle."

I don't see any notion about swapping rifles in PRS rules, though.

 

[chopit]

Can i shoot my 6.5cm?

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I've seen matches advertised where you can pay another entry fee and use a second rifle as a 'different' shooter. Two separate entries, two separate scores. Might be able to use the same rifle for the second entry, not sure. To me, that's just good business and beneficial to a competitor who's already invested time and money to get there. And more shooting/experience to boot. Wish I could do this at my local PRS 22/NRL22 matches just to shoot another build I have (10/22).

 

[10ring1]

I've seen matches advertised where you can pay another entry fee and use a second rifle as a 'different' shooter. Two separate entries, two separate scores. Might be able to use the same rifle for the second entry, not sure. To me, that's just good business and beneficial to a competitor who's already invested time and money to get there. And more shooting/experience to boot. Wish I could do this at my local PRS 22/NRL22 matches just to shoot another build I have (10/22).

Agree. Should be able to enter as 2 separate shooters (paying 2 fees of course) but you would have to use one gun per entrance fee. Not multiple guns under one fee

 

[Dthomas3523]

......paying 2x fee and getting to shoot the same stages 2x for score is a bigger gamer thing than shooting multiple rifles and only shooting the cof once.

Unless only your first attempt was official. Then have at it as much as you want.

 

[billmeek]

At the local NRL22 match, you used to be able to pay 2 fees and shoot both open and base class which was fun when there was only a few of us shooting. But you had to pick beforehand which of the classes your score would be submitted under and had to shoot that class first to keep people from using the other entry to cheat (i.e. see what the wind was doing that day). Unfortunately last year there was a local NRL22 shooter that caused a big stink with the match director over not being able to post both scores to the league. Now you are only allowed to shoot a single class locally.

 

[Navy Chief]

Reading through this thread it looks like I might remain on the sidelines until NRL22 manages to get their collective act together. The premise that somebody can't use a plate (unless it has a bag attached to it, simply resting on a bag would be illegal) and that it is legal and accepted to have purpose built rifles for different stages is so absurd that it is laughable.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Reading through this thread it looks like I might remain on the sidelines until NRL22 manages to get their collective act together. The premise that somebody can't use a plate (unless it has a bag attached to it, simply resting on a bag would be illegal) and that it is legal and accepted to have purpose built rifles for different stages is so absurd that it is laughable.

To be fair, I’m *pretty* sure both the “arca plates” and the “rail mounted bag” will both be/are illegal and the cof in the future will relay that info until next year.

I took/take issue with the way nrl22 tried to play off an obvious plate as a “rail mounted bag” when someone used it as an example of how the members/MD’s weren’t having the info properly communicated (instead of owning up to poor communication and moving on).

The multiple rifles (and other rules that don’t line up with most PRS style rules) likely stems from nrl22 trying to cross pollinate a “just for fun and beginners” with a competitive style league. It’s not a mix that will make it long term without a bunch of confusion.

That being said, I wouldn’t let it hold you back from shooting local matches. It’s trigger time with your buddies, which in and of itself is a ton of fun.

 

[Navy Chief]

To be fair, I’m *pretty* sure both the “arca plates” and the “rail mounted bag” will both be/are illegal and the cof in the future will relay that info until next year.

I took/take issue with the way nrl22 tried to play off an obvious plate as a “rail mounted bag” when someone used it as an example of how the members/MD’s weren’t having the info properly communicated (instead of owning up to poor communication and moving on).

The multiple rifles (and other rules that don’t line up with most PRS style rules) likely stems from nrl22 trying to cross pollinate a “just for fun and beginners” with a competitive style league. It’s not a mix that will make it long term without a bunch of confusion.

That being said, I wouldn’t let it hold you back from shooting local matches. It’s trigger time with your buddies, which in and of itself is a ton of fun.

The problem is there are no matches that are truly local to me, they all involve travel well over an hour each way and from what little I can tell from the sparse information on the club websites it would involve membership in yet another club.....

I had considered getting a group together at one of the local club ranges in the area but getting enough participation is going to be tough and more than I can commit to right now.

Combine that with them playing loose and fast with the rules and allowing absurd things like multiple guns for single matches for a single shooter and they are rapidly taking the fun out of it.

I will be keeping an eye on developments, attitudes, and behaviors and maybe next season (20/21) I will jump in.....

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

@Navy Chief - PM inbound, I don't want to jack this thread with a possible suggestion for other 22 matches

 

[10xk9]

Reading through this thread it looks like I might remain on the sidelines until NRL22 manages to get their collective act together. The premise that somebody can't use a plate (unless it has a bag attached to it, simply resting on a bag would be illegal) and that it is legal and accepted to have purpose built rifles for different stages is so absurd that it is laughable.

Despite this current confusion about plates ( which will be quickly resolved) the NRL22 organization is a lot of fun. I think the national director and the very small staff do an excellent job of running the organization. It’s a very new organization that has grown very quickly and has experienced some very normal and expected growing pains.
It’s an introduction to precision rifle and it’s very much geared for getting the entire family involved, especially children.
Don’t refrain from playing the game due to the confusion of a piece of equipment. Shoot the match using only 1 rifle without an Arca plate, like I require at my NRL22 club, and you’ll have a ton of fun. My club is in West Virginia, if you’re ever in my area come and shoot with us for free just to see how much fun it is. No membership required.

 

[reynja]

I agree - despite the drama, which is mostly just here, the matches are super fun. I drive about 150 miles round trip to shoot NRL22 matches and a lot further for the other 22 match around me (not NRL22 - but even bigger with more stages, longer distances, etc). Don't let forum drama prevent you from having a good time in the real world.

 

[trophyhunter]

I’ll reiterate what everyone has said, NRL22 matches are fun overall. There might be drama online but at the club level there isn’t. Online you have the constant he used this and they used this that will start the bickering. Besides the bragging rights on highest score it really don’t matter. Last time we shot it was over 100*, windy af and I don’t put mats out for our shooters, We rough it. While others have carpet, 73*, no wind and they practiced the COF 35x. My shooters are shooting against each other. Even when we only have 4-5 shooters we still have a great time.

 

[lash]

I’ll reiterate what everyone has said, NRL22 matches are fun overall. There might be drama online but at the club level there isn’t. Online you have the constant he used this and they used this that will start the bickering. Besides the bragging rights on highest score it really don’t matter. Last time we shot it was over 100*, windy af and I don’t put mats out for our shooters, We rough it. While others have carpet, 73*, no wind and they practiced the COF 35x. My shooters are shooting against each other. Even when we only have 4-5 shooters we still have a great time.

This X4 or x5, or something. At the local level there is really no drama and everyone is there to learn or compete amongst themselves for fun and to have a good time. We are also lucky to have 320 yards to play with. Those that come out to play almost always want to get out to the longer distances in the extra stages.

We get new shooters every time and almost always a new junior. We spend extra time with the new shooters and juniors so that they can learn how to do things right and so that they have a good time. I personally feel that that aspect is most important of all. At this time, and hopefully into the future, juniors shoot this match for free here.

 

[Rover31]

Yes please on the no drama, leave that to F book!

 

[gamecock525]

As the MD of our match, I was not aware that the plates were not allowed (as it is not explicitly stated in the published rules).

HOWEVER, we did have a competitor try to use the Railchanger AND a separate support bag, which I did not to allow, as I considered the Railchanger his 1 bag.
His contention was that the Railchanger was the same as a bipod since it was attached to the rifle.
FWIW.

 

[Dthomas3523]

As the MD of our match, I was not aware that the plates were not allowed (as it is not explicitly stated in the published rules).

HOWEVER, we did have a competitor try to use the Railchanger AND a separate support bag, which I did not to allow, as I considered the Railchanger his 1 bag.
His contention was that the Railchanger was the same as a bipod since it was attached to the rifle.
FWIW.

Good call.

 

[davere]

His contention was that the Railchanger was the same as a bipod since it was attached to the rifle.

I can "attach" a Tac Pad or Pump Pillow to my rifle by sliding it down the barrel and running the elastic straps over the scope. That in no way makes either of them magically the same as a bipod. They're still bags. You definitely made the right call!

 

[10ring1]

Ok. Was this addressed in the live show this eve? I must have missed it. Watched 99% of it but didn't see it

 

[Reload10]

^^ I did not hear it either. The question was asked about MD"s not following the COF for paper stages and he said they won't go into that.

 

[rick137]

It's times like these that I'm glad I compete against myself.
I only have one rule. Don't lock myself out of the house.
Which I have done before.
The last time , I was attacked by my dog who thought I was a burglar coming through the window.
Until I started yelling. That's when she looked at me all dumbfounded , like , what are you doing here?

Right on Bro. Make up your own COF. If you can clean the stages easily make the COF harder. If you want to compete agree to a few rules with a mate or two, hopefully better than you so you can learn from them. Consider such as the 6 x 5 or 5 x 10 challenges, simple reasonable rules.

RLS

 

[10ring1]

^^ I did not hear it either. The question was asked about MD"s not following the COF for paper stages and he said they won't go into that.

They avoid any/all inflammatory content. I did hear him say there will be alot of changes after Shot show

 

[hlee]

Invention is the mother of necessity. Turn your gamer plate into a rifle mounted bag...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tight-spot-bag.6970513/#post-8085110

 

[10ring1]

Invention is the mother of necessity. Turn your gamer plate into a rifle mounted bag...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tight-spot-bag.6970513/#post-8085110

My understanding through all of this mess is that is not 'legal' any longer

 

[reynja]

I give it a month before someone welds one into a chassis and be like...its part of my chassis!

 

[phlegethon]

I give it a month before someone welds one into a chassis and be like...its part of my chassis!

That is why benchrest has limitations on forend width by class. Of course, those limitations are published in the official rules for all to see in advance...

 

[10ring1]

Ok I am confused again. Here is the January COF rules, page 5. Rule 4 clearly states "Open class shooters have no restrictions on equipment" . To an analytical thinker, I would take it as AMP plate fall under 'no restrictions'. But i just don't know anymore.

 

[phlegethon]

Ok I am confused again. Here is the January COF rules, page 5. Rule 4 clearly states "Open class shooters have no restrictions on equipment" . To an analytical thinker, I would take it as AMP plate fall under 'no restrictions'. But i just don't know anymore.
View attachment 7210848

You have to rub the PDF with lemon juice to see the secret text with the restrictions.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ok I am confused again. Here is the January COF rules, page 5. Rule 4 clearly states "Open class shooters have no restrictions on equipment" . To an analytical thinker, I would take it as AMP plate fall under 'no restrictions'. But i just don't know anymore.
View attachment 7210848

Few things:

1: Yea, it’s confusing. It’s been pointed out numerous times that nrl22 rules are confusing, sometimes contradictory, and also rule out things that are intended (rules state young gun must be able to shoot stages alone and only verbal coaching is allowed even though the whole point of the league is to help and bring in juniors). Perhaps they will look into the many issues with the way the rules are written.

2: That part you cited is listed AFTER the general restrictions placed on ALL classes. While yes, they should have said no restrictions “except the ones listed above,” you can’t pick the one portion about open class without reading the general restrictions. So while yes it could have been written better, it’s pretty clear what the intent is.

3: When read in its entirety, it’s fairly clear that the term “restrictions equipment” is more referring to the price of the rifle and modification allowed (not listed as generally not allowed in the above section). Again, it’s not written very well and the wording should be different.

 

[SanginSpecial]

I don’t see where that is in the rules. If you would be so kind as to point out what I missed, I would appreciate that. I am just a stupid SE guy and have not been in on the birth and development of NRL. If there are known rules that are not published to even the remote areas, then how can they be known?

If you open the December course of fire and read the first couple of pages, it covers allowed equipment for that month's COF.

As for what's allowed at Nationals... We probably won't know until a day or two before the match. At least that's what happened last May when it was announced that there would be certain stages with unlimited gear. I'd bet that there will be a few stages like that next May as well.

 

[SanginSpecial]

You have to rub the PDF with lemon juice to see the secret text with the restrictions.

Read the first page of the January cof. That is where it states what gear is legal for THAT month's cof.