Hold on let me go get my “like I care face”
Let me check the popularity of NRL22 in Ohio...……………………………...
Crickets...………………..
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Hold on let me go get my “like I care face”
At one time I was a member of the IHMSA, International Handgun Metallic Shooting Association. Early on the rules and regulations were very few. As things progressed we had all the crybabies and winners about the rules they could not win with. The organization tried to "make everything acceptable". As an end result by the time you finished reading the rule book and complying with everything the babies wanted, first off you had aged another year. Secondly no one could actually decipher the correct meaning of the regulations. Eventually due to this primarily the IHMSA membership declined to a point that today it is almost non existent. Do not let this happen with this new sport. Keep it Simple Stupid and have fun.
No one is complaining about rule complexity or about rules to suit every possible situation.
The issue here are "rules" that appear in many places except where they should: in the rulebook.
Do try to keep up
PS, it's very possible to write a rulebook that's comprehensive, objective, and fair. You just need to have intelligent, educated people do it. USPSA's rulebook is thorough and useful, yet fairly understandable. Is it perfect? Fuck no. Is it the best of all the shooting sports I've seriously competed in? By far.
The idea that Nationals will have a separate rule set and (again) have rules in place that nobody knows about, or expects, makes it a huge turnoff for attending. I'm still hearing stories of things that happened at the last Nationals that most shooters didn't know were legal.
So that is ok? If it is I will use mine next time. That's exactly what I was told wasn't legal which prompted this discussionAnd nrl22’s response was: “that’s not a plate, it’s a rail mounted bag”
So that is ok? If it is I will use mine next time. That's exactly what I was told wasn't legal which prompted this discussion
From time to time, reshoots of stages will occur for reasons such as a cease fire being called, prop malfunction or target breakage. The Range Officer may offer a reshoot anytime he or she thinks it is warranted. A shooter may also request a reshoot to the Range Officer. If the Range Officer denies the request, the shooter may request to bring the issue to the Match Director. The Match Director’s ruling is final. The Match Director shall also inform the shooter if they are able to request another reshoot in the remainder of the competition. Reshoots may be complete stage reshoots, or starting in the middle of the stage with points and time consistent with the stoppage. The score on the reshoot will be the only score used.
I just went over the NRL rules, got to this part and stopped from going any further:
LOLWTF................wow, just fucking wow......
Was that response after the above posting?And nrl22’s response was: “that’s not a plate, it’s a rail mounted bag”
Was that response after the above posting?
Thomas, I sincerely do not understand why you are so upset. If you tell me what we have done that is so wrong I will tell you my side of the story.Here’s the response from NRL22 director concerning that pic.
Make sure you take note of the second paragraph where he makes sure to put the blame on the members and not the management for causing confusion. Also note where he says it’s not an arca plate, merely a “Rail mounted bag.”
Because clearly, the membership isn’t smart enough to know it functions exactly the same as an arca plate (and will actually hold a bag, which we arca plate won’t do).
So, while I have in the past defended nrl22, I can’t defend this. Putting the blame on the membership and refusing to take responsibility isn’t a good idea.
Not to mention in a post about the item in question, he makes it clearly known it should be the MD discretion, yet is taking the discretion away.
Unless something drastically changes, I won’t be spending $1k+ to travel to the national championship. I’m only one person and don’t matter. But my opinion is that second paragraph is not from an organization I am willing to support.
For what it’s worth, I’m assuming the 419 plate will not be legal eirher.
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Thomas, I sincerely do not understand why you are so upset. If you tell me what we have done that is so wrong I will tell you my side of the story.
My point, once again is that this sport is changing rapidly. The OP was upset about an Arca plate (which is new) but this is in fact a rail mounted bag (which is newer). MY POINT once again is that the sport is evolving. NRL22 is and has always been a one bag shoot. None of these things are legal. The plate and the bag is both illegal.
Things have changed so fast that the OP misidentified what he was so upset about. THAT was my point. They are both not allowed. The Rules are clearly written and published. The COF is clearly written and published. Every COF ever published with the exception of the Positional stages all say "one bag the size of a volleyball or smaller". But that isn't good enough. Shooters and MDs keep pushing. We say "its up to the MD to interpret the rules and COF that everyone has". That isn't good enough. So look, it's written in the rules and the COF, and you want a definitive answer, it isn't allowed.
USPSA is the gold standard in rules, but ask yourself when the last time a major game changing anything was introduced to competition pistol shooting? Were their rules so squared away at 2 years? During this time, were they able to get 70+ clubs a month internationally participating? Did they have social media and instantaneous pictures to contend with? Do you realize that people take our COF, use it and post it on social media as an NRL22 match with out ever reading the rules or posting any scores? These are the things I deal with as a volunteer every day.
You have a bone to pick. Why? Ask yourself this, do you ever have the opportunity to speak one on one with the originator and administer of the organization? I am here trying to listen and help. I have read this entire thread with an open mind. We have never changed the rules, the shooters and MDs are trying to game the rules. They ask for clarification, we provide clarification. Never did we ever change the rules.
A lot of times the tone of the written word is misinterpreted. My tone here is with respect, and my intention is to get you to understand.
With respect,
Tyler Frehner
NRL22 originator and director of match operations
Tyler, I appreciate your carefully thought out and worded response. I also think that there are far fewer rogue MDs than it may seem from our responses to this thread. It serves to open the discussion regarding the terms Open Class and MD Discretion.
Truthfully, I do not (or at least did not until now) see the arca plate as a bag. Just as I don’t think that skid plates and barricade stops are bags. Interestingly enough, the Area 419 attachment is most certainly perceived as a bag, simply because, well, it has a bag on it, lol.
Personally, I think that as you grow, you may find that getting involved in categorizing every new piece of equipment is going to become a path you’ll wish you never started down. Humans will ALWAYS push the limits. It’s human nature. Wherever there are rules, there will be those that try to gain an advantage by finding the edges and limits of those rules. It’s in our DNA. I feel that open class should be where the big boys and girls play and that innovation and creativity should be encouraged. However, it’s not my show, not my rodeo.
My point, once again is that this sport is changing rapidly. The OP was upset about an Arca plate (which is new) but this is in fact a rail mounted bag (which is newer). MY POINT once again is that the sport is evolving. NRL22 is and has always been a one bag shoot. None of these things are legal. The plate and the bag is both illegal.
Things have changed so fast that the OP misidentified what he was so upset about. THAT was my point. They are both not allowed. The Rules are clearly written and published. The COF is clearly written and published. Every COF ever published with the exception of the Positional stages all say "one bag the size of a volleyball or smaller". But that isn't good enough. Shooters and MDs keep pushing. We say "its up to the MD to interpret the rules and COF that everyone has". That isn't good enough. So look, it's written in the rules and the COF, and you want a definitive answer, it isn't allowed.
USPSA is the gold standard in rules, but ask yourself when the last time a major game changing anything was introduced to competition pistol shooting? Were their rules so squared away at 2 years? During this time, were they able to get 70+ clubs a month internationally participating? Did they have social media and instantaneous pictures to contend with? Do you realize that people take our COF, use it and post it on social media as an NRL22 match with out ever reading the rules or posting any scores? These are the things I deal with as a volunteer every day.
We have never changed the rules, the shooters and MDs are trying to game the rules. They ask for clarification, we provide clarification. Never did we ever change the rules.
As for finding this thread, I was steered hear by people who aren't to keen on men using youth as example for their agenda. Next time have taste and wait to make your point with an adult.
So just for everyone's edification I am the MD from the shoot with the "Plate" in the pictures that was posted. I had no idea we weren't allowed to use them. I am certainly not Rouge and run a good match, we follow the rules as I know them. One important item to note is we who compete at local matches do just that compete locally. Our local points are divided by those who shoot together at that match, winners there all share the same weather, wind and MD, those sole local winners get their 100 points. Its the disdain few who seem a place of false importance by comparing their raw score to anyone else. I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of having the high score and champion those that do, just remember we all shot in different conditions. Once a year we have the chance to compete on the same stage, earn your way there and win that and then be prideful. Additionally, I like most people who work and have a family don't have time to watch the Live Award's each month. I think I may have caught 2 since the league started. Also I wasn't even aware until last month that there was even a NRL 22 Advisory MD page. No Worries I'm in the process of getting that fixed. As for finding this thread, I was steered hear by people who aren't to keen on men using youth as example for their agenda. Next time have taste and wait to make your point with an adult.
"No Better Friend - No Worse Enemy"
SFMF
Gregg Stewart
Those people who even suggest it was “using a teen” are assholes to begin with.
I had zero to do with the picture that made its way here or online. What I do see is a top national shooter is is used all the time as a poster child(no pun intended) who was using a piece of gear that presumably wasn’t allowed. The age of the shooter doesn’t matter at all. And the shooter did nothing wrong at all either. I do agree it’s unfortunate who the shooter in the pic happened to be.
And you just made a point of some of the issues here. You had no idea the legality of the item (because you were using published rules)......and you barely had any clue of the advisors page where these rules were being clarified (and you’re an MD).
Unfortunately, at the moment, “rogue MD” means an MD who didn’t happen to see a post or three clarifying the rule.
Hi, Tyler - thanks for weighing in. A couple of questions/comments, if you don't mind (also intended with respect)...
If I'm reading this right, you're saying the A419 Rail Changer plate/bag combo (as shown in the pic earlier in the thread) is NOT legal, correct? So, that would put it on par w/ the ruling on an Arca rail mounted plate that is then placed on top of of a bag (ala the GreyOps AMP Plate or similar).
So, what I read you saying is - if it's not specifically stated as allowed in the rules or COF, it's not allowed. As a competitor, how do I square this with rule 5.B.4, which describes Open class equipment restrictions, and says "Open class shooters have no restrictions on equipment." Is this meant to be interpreted as something like "action, barrel, scope, stock, trigger are all up to the shooter, with all other support equipment to be detailed in the COF"?
On the USPSA front, no, the rules as they were initially written were relatively simple (I have a copy somewhere), but evolved quickly when they started trying to run competitions physically separated from Cooper's original match (necessitated by the same sort of growing pains you're describing). I don't think anyone is saying that USPSA was "perfect" or completely formed from the outset - far from it. However, they didn't have the benefit of observing another shooting org ruleset that went through similar growing pains, when trying to provide a "freestyle" (as IPSC/USPSA calls it) experience for the shooter. What folks are pointing out is that you could leverage the experience built there to jump well forward on the growing pain curve, and skip a lot of the errors and pain that USPSA had in growing their sport and rule set.
Their rule set does consider what evidence is allowable for consideration, and they definitely deal with similar issues via social media (including several recent cases of cheating involved PractiScore that have been heavily discussed via social media).
I recognize this is how you see it - you live in your own brain and understand your intent, so you have particular insight to the interpretation of the rules. You're the only person with that benefit. One of the common issues with leadership is clarity of communication. You should take this thread as evidence that you haven't clearly communicated your intent as it applies to Open class rules, and how it might apply to support equipment. If you had, there would be no question to ask. If one were to simply read the rules, one were to think that any equipment is allowed in Open class. When I encounter situations like this in my own role as a leader, I take it as an opportunity to improve my communications, and a chance to grow.
What most people here are asking for is transparency in the clarification provided. To date, if one weren't a member of the private NRL Advisors group on Facebook, or actively watching every awards broadcast video, they wouldn't have benefit of the clarification. I don't see asking for it to be published on the website as being something that should cause so much consternation?
As someone actively attempting to spin up an NRL match at a local club, this kind of thing makes it tough to figure out how to proceed, honestly.
I am not involved with the NRL22, although it sounded interesting and I’ve been meaning to look for local matches when I have time at some point. I have to say, this thread is simply mind boggling. I cannot begin to understand how anyone can think it’s OK to have unpublished rules, or unpublished interpretations of rules. It is obvious and beyond dispute that these rules have not been adequately communicated to the shooters, the match directors, and the public.
And yet, Tyler’s response reads to me as mostly an explanation of why NRL22 is right and everyone else is wrong. I hope that he can learn from this thread and greatly improve communication, or perhaps step aside and let someone else try it.
I definitely will. I’m just amazed by the attitudes displayed by some in this thread.I’d still look for local matches and shoot if I were you. The actual shooting and people are the fun parts.
Whether you choose to become a member of an organization based in whatever criteria you like, is another conversation.
But get out there and shoot matches. Be it nrl22 or some other .22 match. They are lots of fun.
I definitely will. I’m just amazed by the attitudes displayed by some in this thread.
You weren’t one of the ones I was talking about. I’m not Little Miss Sunshine either, but the NRL22 defenders in this thread seem really out to lunch.I’m in that category and can be an ass at (many) times. For that I apologize as my demeanor is rough around the edges. But I don’t like blatant refusal to take responsibility and attempting to be clever with wording to avoid said responsibility.
The OP was upset about an Arca plate (which is new) but this is in fact a rail mounted bag (which is newer).
The bipod is assumed as part of the rifle. Unless stated “unsupported” bipod is allowed.The OP (me) wasn't upset. Just seeking clarification so I can follow the rules as I am supposed to.
And yes, my original inquiry was in regard to the Area 419 railchanger X with gamechanger that attaches to the plate. Is that legal or not? Still confused.
Also, just for my own curiosity, when a stage lists the equipment list and it states 'one bag only the size of a volleyball or smaller'. I see many shooters (including myself as I have learned from many others and pics on social media), shooting with the said bag in the rear of the rifle and a bipod for support in the front when the equipment list does not mention a bipod. Is this correct or is it just a bag, and no bipod?
My match director uses kyl spinners in place of paper.
From what I've gathered from this thread, it is likely that he doesn't have any idea either...I need to thank our match director.
I hadn't any idea how much lack of drama we've enjoyed.
As a new entity I'll give them the chance to iron out these problems as the come.
YMMV
R