Anneal every time = consistent?

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Brian Litz has a podcast with Erik Cortina and discusses his extensive testing with annealing. He found that under no conditions did he ever witness that annealing had any affect on improving ES or SD's, it only annealed the brass as it is supposed to....Watch the podcast and draw your own conclusions....

To be fair, he's also said he's never witnessed positive compensation in centerfire or tuners working. So, his testing with annealing is g2g and his testing with tuners and PC are not?

 

[misser]

Brian Litz has a podcast with Erik Cortina and discusses his extensive testing with annealing. He found that under no conditions did he ever witness that annealing had any affect on improving ES or SD's, it only annealed the brass as it is supposed to....Watch the podcast and draw your own conclusions....

i suspect that if it did not work Erik Cortina would not be doing it

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

i suspect that if it did not work Erik Cortina would not be doing it

He's human like the rest of us and just like us, doesn't get everything right. There's plenty of people at the top of any industry that do things that don't matter.

Case in point, he advocates for tuning using 2-3 shots per setting. Just based on how shot dispersion works, that can't work.

 

[308pirate]

Brass life really comes down to primer pockets. Annealing doesn't help that at all.

All my brass dies of split necks. Maybe don't load so hot

Outside of fireforming Dasher brass I haven't had a split neck on a piece of brass in probably 8-10 years

Well then I guess if it doesn't happen to you it never happens at all.

 

[misser]

He's human like the rest of us and just like us, doesn't get everything right. There's plenty of people at the top of any industry that do things that don't matter.

Case in point, he advocates for tuning using 2-3 shots per setting. Just based on how shot dispersion works, that can't work.

just a question . do you use a tuner?

 

[diggler1833]

Man, all the arguing about how often or not you can split case necks, and I split 80% of a box of my 5.56 LC brass on firing #4. It was a hot load (25.5 Reloader 15, 69r SMK), but the primer pockets were still good as of that 4th firing (nothing fell out).

It's the reason why I bought an annealing machine.

I don't think my annealing skills (bowstaff, nunchuk...annealing) have improved accuracy at all. However I do notice that my split neck problem went away after I started. Not that important with military range brass, but having a bunch of Lapua, Alpha, and Peterson these days makes me want to get my money's worth out of the longevity.

I think we've had more than one method demonstrated to bring satisfactory results....so YMMV.

 

[CNC-Dude]

i suspect that if it did not work Erik Cortina would not be doing it

Annealing works to extend brass life, that's why they anneal....

 

[Tokay444]

That’s a secondary benefit. That’s not why they do it. I’d be surprised if anyone on the Lapua team pays for brass. Life isn’t and issue.

 

[supercorndogs]

Yet no one gives relevant information about how many firings they got from brass before they started annealing. I have seen LC 5.56 brass go 30x without annealing. So how much of this extra brass life is just perception. Like the poster who says you don't need to lube the inside of necks if you anneal. You can get lots of advice from people who don't know.

 

[diggler1833]

Yet no one gives relevant information about how many firings they got from brass before they started annealing. I have seen LC 5.56 brass go 30x without annealing. So how much of this extra brass life is just perception. Like the poster who says you don't need to lube the inside of necks if you anneal. You can get lots of advice from people who don't know.

I am replying to you with 100% intent not to start an 8th argument in this thread. It is more to hear about your philosophy of lubing after annealing (that you probably share with others).

I am not familiar with the poster who you mentioned in the last part of your own post...but I certainly don't lube the inside of my case necks after I anneal...unless you count my very lightly lubing my expander mandrel after every 20 cases, as I expand to .002 under as my last step before priming and charging.

Sometimes I dry tumble, sometimes wet, it depends on how filthy the cases are and my daily schedule TBH. I have not noticed any favorable results of one method over the other on paper or steel out to distance.

If I've been doing it "wrong", then any empirical evidence you can provide is actually appreciated. I will continue to do it my way...BUT, should I ever get a degradation in accuracy or ES/SD, it is certainly an easy step in the troubleshooting process. As I consider myself a life-long learner, I do frequently read up on the processes of others on this site.

Thanks.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am replying to you with 100% intent not to start an 8th argument in this thread. It is more to hear about your philosophy of lubing after annealing (that you probably share with others).

I am not familiar with the poster who you mentioned in the last part of your own post...but I certainly don't lube the inside of my case necks after I anneal...unless you count my very lightly lubing my expander mandrel after every 20 cases, as I expand to .002 under as my last step before priming and charging.

Sometimes I dry tumble, sometimes wet, it depends on how filthy the cases are and my daily schedule TBH. I have not noticed any favorable results of one method over the other on paper or steel out to distance.

If I've been doing it "wrong", then any empirical evidence you can provide is actually appreciated. I will continue to do it my way...BUT, should I ever get a degradation in accuracy or ES/SD, it is certainly an easy step in the troubleshooting process. As I consider myself a life-long learner, I do frequently read up on the processes of others on this site.

Thanks.

If you read the thread i would hope you would have seen it.

Posters says he didn't anneal and his brass got so hard he couldn't pull the expander ball through his necks without lube.

I am not talking about lubing what ever annealing leaves inside the neck. I am talking about lubing the inside of your neck during sizing so your shoulder bump stays consistent. Pulling expanders through dry necks doesn't lend its self to that.

I have seen claims that pushing a mandrel isn't as bad, but never from anyone I trust tracks it well enough to know. It'd usually like the annealing g thing. They read it somewhere so just doing it makes their better. No evidence of any kind needed.

 

[misser]

can't say i have ever seen any of the YouTubers making the point of lubing the inside of the neck . i can however understand why anyone that refuses to anneal would have to lube after a few firings.

 

[diggler1833]

If you read the thread i would hope you would have seen it.

Posters says he didn't anneal and his brass got so hard he couldn't pull the expander ball through his necks without lube.

I am not talking about lubing what ever annealing leaves inside the neck. I am talking about lubing the inside of your neck during sizing so your shoulder bump stays consistent. Pulling expanders through dry necks doesn't lend its self to that.

I have seen claims that pushing a mandrel isn't as bad, but never from anyone I trust tracks it well enough to know. It'd usually like the annealing g thing. They read it somewhere so just doing it makes their better. No evidence of any kind needed.

Honestly, when a bunch of arguments start man I just skim as best I can. Depends on how a post starts on whether I read through it.

Interesting on your observation regarding pulling expander balls through dry necks and its results on shoulder consistency. I do see about a .0015 ES difference across my brass when I size an entire 100 round fox. I do F/L resize after firing before I clean...so there is carbon 'lubrication', but I certainly don't lube the inside of the neck. I would certainly imagine that a lack of annealing would work harden the brass to exacerbate that.

Thanks for your input.

 

[supercorndogs]

Honestly, when a bunch of arguments start man I just skim as best I can. Depends on how a post starts on whether I read through it.

Interesting on your observation regarding pulling expander balls through dry necks and its results on shoulder consistency. I do see about a .0015 ES difference across my brass when I size an entire 100 round fox. I do F/L resize after firing before I clean...so there is carbon 'lubrication', but I certainly don't lube the inside of the neck. I would certainly imagine that a lack of annealing would work harden the brass to exacerbate that.

Thanks for your input.

It doesn't sound line you are pulling expanders. It sounds like you are expanding necks with a lubed mandrel. At least that is what you said. Try running it into the necks dry.

I don't think the residue from firing is lubricus.

 

[Maurygold]

To be fair, he's also said he's never witnessed positive compensation in centerfire or tuners working. So, his testing with annealing is g2g and his testing with tuners and PC are not?

you’re playing both sides of the coin too! Litz is wrong right about tuners but wrong about annealing?

 

[misser]

should we also be turning the necks to a constant thickness ?? after all the thicker side is going to give less than the thinner side . OMG such a rabbit hole. ; )

 

[supercorndogs]

When trying to attain an extremely high level of accuracy. I think pretty much everyone is turning necks. Correct? Any competitive BR guys not turning?

 

[misser]

yes they do and even that comes with some controversy. even I have dabbled in it. and yet I can go to the big warehouse down the road .get a box of Hornady American white ammo. shoot a 5/16'' or less group @100 got ta know that's not premium brass

 

[FredHammer]

should we also be turning the necks to a constant thickness ?? after all the thicker side is going to give less than the thinner side . OMG such a rabbit hole. ; )

Can we introduce barrel cleaning & borescopes next?

 

[DairyDictator]

Well this turned to shit real quick. Good job hide.

 

[Ronn]

I used to anneal every firing but stopped bc it pretty much necessitates treating the inside of the necks. It turns into a cascading addition of brass prep steps. I load 90% of my precision rifle on a progressive press and for my purposes I don't really want to handle each piece of brass for some sort of manual case prep step. But you may be different. The issues I had annealing every time was the leftover carbon or soot that provides some natural lubricity chars into a super dry and sticky surface. When that happens you have to lube the necks. Which means you have to lube after dropping powder or else you have powder bridging bc it sticks to the lube. Not only is this a pita but it prevents you from loading prepped brass on a Dillon. You might be able to rectify the stickiness of the necks by dry tumbling after sizing and hope the leftover dust provides something. I have alternatively kept a tin of imperial sizing die wax next to the bullets as I load and every three rounds tapped my fingers in the wax so that when I grab a bullet to place on the case I can roll it around in my fingers to basically lube the bullet. This reduces the seating force and prevents the cold weld you'll get from annealed and super clean brass. I played with one type of dry lube and it really just didn't seem effective. I also bought some Neolube with the idea that I could lube the necks and it dries into a film so the powder doesn't stick. But when you read the label that stuff is super hazardous to your health and I'm back to loading 100pcs of brass at a time on a loading block to touch every case with a tiny brush. None of this is insurmountable but I reached the conclusion that if I can load single digit SDs without annealing every firing, why go through the hassle? Disclaimer is I shoot field matches and PRS. I don't shoot benchrest. .3" - .5" is my goal when loading.

I’ve been thinking about getting into annealing, but after reading your post I’ve had more to think about. I’ve been using 99% alcohol and lanolin spray for Lube also getting a quick spray across all the brass in the necks before sizing. I’ve tried tumbling and I’ve tried just cleaning the outside with 99% alcohol and a rag. I could definitely see a pretty consistent residue inside the necks after tumbling because the dust stuck to the Lube. But I’d like to skip the tumble step. I’m wondering if I anneal then spray Lube and then size if my necks would have enough Lube?

 

[FredHammer]

I’ve been thinking about getting into annealing, but after reading your post I’ve had more to think about. I’ve been using 99% alcohol and lanolin spray for Lube also getting a quick spray across all the brass in the necks before sizing. I’ve tried tumbling and I’ve tried just cleaning the outside with 99% alcohol and a rag. I could definitely see a pretty consistent residue inside the necks after tumbling because the dust stuck to the Lube. But I’d like to skip the tumble step. I’m wondering if I anneal then spray Lube and then size if my necks would have enough Lube?

If you use a mandrel to set your neck size, the mandrel smooths out the annealing grit.
I've not experienced anything bad sizing with lube over anneal grit on the outside of cases.

 

[FredHammer]

Well this turned to shit real quick. Good job hide.

First time?

 

[Grim's Reapers]

I induction anneal after around every second and maybe third firing. This is only because the "feel" of my brass during my case prep changes. I'm not a benchrest guy, so I'm not turning my necks and the like. I'm familiar with my brass so I can sort of feel it if that makes sense.

Keep in mind, you're dealing with a redneck here.

 

[JR1200W3]

If you use a mandrel to set your neck size, the mandrel smooths out the annealing grit.
I've not experienced anything bad sizing with lube over anneal grit on the outside of cases.

An AMP leaves the inside of the neck so dry you can't run a mandrel through without lube. It'll stick and grab as it attempts to gall. You have to lube before mandreling but you have to clean the lube off before dropping powder and then you're back to dry necks for seating. That's what I mean by causing a cascading series of extra case prep steps.

 

[JR1200W3]

I’ve been thinking about getting into annealing, but after reading your post I’ve had more to think about. I’ve been using 99% alcohol and lanolin spray for Lube also getting a quick spray across all the brass in the necks before sizing. I’ve tried tumbling and I’ve tried just cleaning the outside with 99% alcohol and a rag. I could definitely see a pretty consistent residue inside the necks after tumbling because the dust stuck to the Lube. But I’d like to skip the tumble step. I’m wondering if I anneal then spray Lube and then size if my necks would have enough Lube?

I've done that. Load a hundred cases up in a square 100rd loading block and spray them from all four sides getting lube in the necks. You could do that for sure. The issue isn't sizing, it's having something inside the necks that prevents bullets from sticking or seating hard that powder won't stick to when you're dropping charges

 

[FredHammer]

An AMP leaves the inside of the neck so dry you can't run a mandrel through without lube. It'll stick and grab as it attempts to gall. You have to lube before mandreling but you have to clean the lube off before dropping powder and then you're back to dry necks for seating. That's what I mean by causing a cascading series of extra case prep steps.

I can't imagine running a mandrel without lube. My process is:
Anneal
Hornady one shot brass and inside case mouths
FL Size with no expander button
Mandrel to size necks with lubed mandrel (Smooths anneal grit)
Remove lube by swabbing necks with acetone, or if a batch over 50ct, walnut media tumble 20-30 min
Seat bullet in dry, but smooth neck

So, I am not experiencing extra steps since I have to remove the case neck lube at some point anyway.
Are you adding back a wet lube for bullet seating? What is your process so I can understand where you are getting the cascade of extra steps?

 

[JR1200W3]

I can't imagine running a mandrel without lube. My process is:
Anneal
Hornady one shot brass and inside case mouths
FL Size with no expander button
Mandrel to size necks with lubed mandrel (Smooths anneal grit)
Remove lube by swabbing necks with acetone, or if a batch over 50ct, walnut media tumble 20-30 min
Seat bullet in dry, but smooth neck

So, I am not experiencing extra steps since I have to remove the case neck lube at some point anyway.
Are you adding back a wet lube for bullet seating? What is your process so I can understand where you are getting the cascade of extra steps?

The bluf is that if you don't fry the carbon inside the necks with an AMP(specifically the AMP annealer) you don't need to lube the inside of the necks. Same with wet tumbling. If you don't wash the carbon out you don't need to lube the inside of the necks. When you do anneal with the amp or wash the shit out of the brass, you now need to lube the necks twice. Once to size, which you then need to clean out to drop powder. And then a second time to seat a bullet. I've found relying on the mandrel to clean out lube inside a neck doesn't really work. And powder like RL23, 26, and 4831SC like to bridge with dry necks. They don't need any encouragement to hang up from a little bit of lube. When you're loading on a Dillon, having powder bridge and then drop on the next case along with the second charge is a giant pain in the ass.

As far as you describing seating a bullet smoothly with dry, clean necks...if the neck is completely dry and clean it's going to impact extra tension when seating and eventually cold weld.

ETA: I think your load process is the extra steps I'm talking about. Your okay with it. I find it tedious.

 

[misser]

I can't imagine running a mandrel without lube. My process is:
Anneal
Hornady one shot brass and inside case mouths
FL Size with no expander button
Mandrel to size necks with lubed mandrel (Smooths anneal grit)
Remove lube by swabbing necks with acetone, or if a batch over 50ct, walnut media tumble 20-30 min
Seat bullet in dry, but smooth neck

So, I am not experiencing extra steps since I have to remove the case neck lube at some point anyway.
Are you adding back a wet lube for bullet seating? What is your process so I can understand where you are getting the cascade of extra steps?

i have watched a few videos of different ammo manufacturers making cartridges . at what point do they lube a mandrel ?

 

[FredHammer]

The bluf is that if you don't fry the carbon inside the necks with an AMP(specifically the AMP annealer) you don't need to lube the inside of the necks. Same with wet tumbling. If you don't wash the carbon out you don't need to lube the inside of the necks. When you do anneal with the amp or wash the shit out of the brass, you now need to lube the necks twice. Once to size, which you then need to clean out to drop powder. And then a second time to seat a bullet. I've found relying on the mandrel to clean out lube inside a neck doesn't really work. And powder like RL23, 26, and 4831SC like to bridge with dry necks. They don't need any encouragement to hang up from a little bit of lube. When you're loading on a Dillon, having powder bridge and then drop on the next case along with the second charge is a giant pain in the ass.

As far as you describing seating a bullet smoothly with dry, clean necks...if the neck is completely dry and clean it's going to impact extra tension when seating and eventually cold weld.

ETA: I think your load process is the extra steps I'm talking about. Your okay with it. I find it tedious.

Our processes and takes on this are different, and that's fine. The only point I'll contest is the "extra tension and cold welding". Thousands upon thousands of rounds, and even some batches pulled after sitting a decade, I've not experienced the cold weld. I should think I would see it in the ES/SD or some evidence on a pulled bullet if it existed.

 

[FredHammer]

i have watched a few videos of different ammo manufacturers making cartridges . at what point do they lube a mandrel ?

I haven't watched those videos and don't even know if they use a mandrel. I know if I don't lube the mandrel I get the galling streaks of brass on the mandrel.

 

[918v]

i have watched a few videos of different ammo manufacturers making cartridges . at what point do they lube a mandrel ?

They don’t because the cases are covered by a layer of wax.

 

[JR1200W3]

Our processes and takes on this are different, and that's fine. The only point I'll contest is the "extra tension and cold welding". Thousands upon thousands of rounds, and even some batches pulled after sitting a decade, I've not experienced the cold weld. I should think I would see it in the ES/SD or some evidence on a pulled bullet if it existed.

I think your method of annealing doesn't produce the same inside neck conditions that an AMP does. And if you're dry tumbling with media that's also helping coat the inside of the neck with some media dust. I've definitely had cold welding from AMP annealing and washing lube off by wet tumbling. I just pulled some bullets on about 18rds I had left over from a match shot a year ago. They required a lot more force to pull.

 

[FredHammer]

I think your method of annealing doesn't produce the same inside neck conditions that an AMP does. And if you're dry tumbling with media that's also helping coat the inside of the neck with some media dust. I've definitely had cold welding from AMP annealing and washing lube off by wet tumbling. I just pulled some bullets on about 18rds I had left over from a match shot a year ago. They required a lot more force to pull.

That makes sense. Do you graphite your new brass necks?

 

[JR1200W3]

That makes sense. Do you graphite your new brass necks?

No. I just load and shoot. I pretty much accept that new brass condition isn't ideal. And new virgin brass isn't as bad as AMP annealed and washed processed neck conditions.

 

[Cynical]

No. I just load and shoot. I pretty much accept that new brass condition isn't ideal. And new virgin brass isn't as bad as AMP annealed and washed processed neck conditions.

New brass is annealed before it gets to us. But yeah, I get there’s probably some wax or preservative on the brass also. There would be if you wet washed and had auto polish in the mixture too.

 

[JR1200W3]

New brass is annealed before it gets to us. But yeah, I get there’s probably some wax or preservative on the brass also. There would be if you wet washed and had auto polish in the mixture too.

I'd be interested in any info on what to add to the mixture to produce a waxed affect. As it is, dawn dishwashing liquid and lemi-shine are somewhat harsh, not sure how a third chemical in the mix would react.

 

[Cynical]

I'd be interested in any info on what to add to the mixture to produce a waxed affect. As it is, dawn dishwashing liquid and lemi-shine are somewhat harsh, not sure how a third chemical in the mix would react.

https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/673973-mothers-california-gold-carnauba-car-wash-and-wax.html?blaintm_source=google&blaintm_medium=pla&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2uiwBhCXARIsACMvIU0glEY8U-76rEuWnHmy8nXncr9T7KEFAOO89_W1eUSvjVT5R7OVRPIaAmedEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Seymour Fish]

That doesn’t change the quality of reloads I’m producing without annealing - something these people act like you can only achieve by brushing necks, annealing and covering yourself in moly.

But based on the quality of reloads you shared I’m sure your opinion is more valid same for @FredHammer and @Tokay444 who shared zero chronos to support their reasoning

Mostly agree, but watch it with the snide moly comments

 

[rijndael]

That makes sense. Do you graphite your new brass necks?

Graphite is specifically not recommended by AMP because it won’t stay on an annealed neck.

https://www.ampannealing.com/faq/

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/42/annealing-under-the-microscope/

 

[918v]

Carb cleaner on a qtip applied to the inside of the neck will leave a super thin film of oil on the surface. Then graphite will stick to the neck.

 

[Tokay444]

An AMP leaves the inside of the neck so dry you can't run a mandrel through without lube. It'll stick and grab as it attempts to gall. You have to lube before mandreling but you have to clean the lube off before dropping powder and then you're back to dry necks for seating. That's what I mean by causing a cascading series of extra case prep steps.

Not the 21st Century black nitride mandrels.

 

[straightshooter1]

An AMP leaves the inside of the neck so dry you can't run a mandrel through without lube. It'll stick and grab as it attempts to gall. You have to lube before mandreling but you have to clean the lube off before dropping powder and then you're back to dry necks for seating. That's what I mean by causing a cascading series of extra case prep steps.

My solution (when doing my brass that doesn't really get dirty going from extraction to cartridge case):

Anneal first, just after decapping.
Clean outside of neck with steel wool
FL size without an expander ball using Imperial Sizing Die Wax (die is reamed to minimize amount of movement)
Tumble clean with medium grain rice
Set Neck tension with mandrel
Trim case to length with 3-way cutting tool

There's no grabbing or galling for two reasons:

1. Due to the die being reamed where the amount of work the mandrel has to do in small for not much pressure on the interior neck wall.

2. The tumbling with rice leaves a very, very small coating on the inside of the neck that's not sticky and acts as a lube; making for smooth consistent seating.

 

[kthomas]

When trying to attain an extremely high level of accuracy. I think pretty much everyone is turning necks. Correct? Any competitive BR guys not turning?

Probably not much, if any advantage, to be seen from turning necks in a chamber that isn't a tight neck chamber. Even then, I think any benefits are likely marginal to essentially non-existent, and just adds to the noise in a sea of confounders.

 

[kthomas]

yes they do and even that comes with some controversy. even I have dabbled in it. and yet I can go to the big warehouse down the road .get a box of Hornady American white ammo. shoot a 5/16'' or less group @100 got ta know that's not premium brass

There's a lot of reloading steps that add marginal to no value, and get washed out with all the other confounding variables at play.

 

[SlowMiss6.5]

Since this thread got bumped back up I’ll provide some data I’ve gotten after shooting the last week or so over 5 different range outings

1. Annealing most certainly aids in repeatability of bumping shoulders and neck tension. On many times (5+ times) fired non annealed brass it is hard to size, shoulder bounces back more and so does neck but neck is still fairly consistent with non annealed brass, mainly a shoulder bump issue. Some of the not annealed brass is having to be FL multiple times to push the shoulder back enough to easily chamber the brass

2. With my current process, annealed brass may lead to a bit higher ES, but I think it’s because I need some kind of lube in the ID of the neck to reduce the brass and bullet “bonding”

3. Thinking the happy medium is anneal every firing, but then use some kind of neck neck ID lube

 

[WasNH4X]

1. Annealing most certainly aids in repeatability of bumping shoulders and neck tension. On many times (5+ times) fired non annealed brass it is hard to size, shoulder bounces back more and so does neck but neck is still fairly consistent with non annealed brass, mainly a shoulder bump issue. Some of the not annealed brass is having to be FL multiple times to push the shoulder back enough to easily chamber the brass

Try a dwell time of 5 Mississippi slow count on those non annealed,see if they won't size to where you want them with one handle pull. Works fer me........every time.

 

[JR1200W3]

Not the 21st Century black nitride mandrels.

If that's true I'm going to buy some. That would be really nice to have

 

[CheapBasterd]

If that's true I'm going to buy some. That would be really nice to have

I'm using the .263 Nitride expander but I still use moly inside the necks. I use a reamed die as well (.289). Its not alot to expand from that but I can definitelty feel the difference with and without moly on annealed necks.

 

[JR1200W3]

I'm using the .263 Nitride expander but I still use moly inside the necks. I use a reamed die as well (.289). Its not alot to expand from that but I can definitelty feel the difference with and without moly on annealed necks.

I would really like to not have to address the inside of the neck on every single piece of brass I reload. I moved past the "amateur benchest reloader" phase a long time ago. I reload and shoot way too much to do that with every cartridge that I reload for. I don't mean that in a shitty way towards you. Not as a rebuttal or anything. Just looking for something that will allow me to mandrel without having to treat the necks