Do you literally have nothing better to do than to troll Orkan?
Since you’re apparently too thick to get it, you currently look the fool in this endeavor. No matter how smart or correct you may be.
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Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths
- Thread starter stevenc23
- Start date
Since you’re apparently too thick to get it, you currently look the fool in this endeavor. No matter how smart or correct you may be.
Its more correct than you are and it does exactly what it sets out to do, serve as a fine tutorial on how to anneal rifle brass.
So maybe instead of trying to correct everyone you should just shut the fuck up about it?
Says the guy digging up a post from 3 years ago and replying to himself in a 1.5yr old thread talking about a 10yr old video. That's mentally ill behavior. Yet you think you're going to counsel me on reality? I think not.
I add more "substance" to this discipline in a month, than you have or will in your entire life. I'm not in the habit of having technical discussions with people that have continually gone out of their way to be adversarial. Instead, I'm in the habit of telling those people to get lost. You're getting exactly what you wanted, because if you wanted a discussion, you'd have approached me in a way that encouraged a discussion. I see you for exactly what you are, and I'm very happy you don't like me, my work, or my "substance."
So get lost.
Welcome to 2024. The hide is on Greg's side and he's taking the high road.
Well played universe......well played.
(This isn't an insult to Greg, it's an observation about how absurd the other guy is)
Well played universe......well played.
(This isn't an insult to Greg, it's an observation about how absurd the other guy is)
From what I can see of your channel, you have very little substance. You show no proof for a good deal of your claims &, you have the unmerited gall to claim that you have more & better knowledge than anyone else out there &, you don't mind telling all & sundry that either.
Watching some of your loading vids is like having teeth pulled. On & on & on, all the while telling your audience how firmly you believe that there's just nobody else out there who can do it as good or as concisely as you.
You are bloated & pretentious in your discourses & dismissive in your attitude.
The fact that this is an old thread has no bearing on the information that you have disseminated under the guise of someone who was teaching annealing to new starters. Turns out that all you taught was anecdote & assumption.
The kicker though, is that all through that annealing vid, you are so forthright & positive about the validity of the information which, we now know was absolutely incorrect &, that you could not have "known" simply because you weren't privy to the scientific information. There's no doubt now that you made all the info up as you went along, fooling yourself into believing that you knew what you were talking about.
Unfortunately, this one video begs the very relevant question of the validity of subsequent "teachings" due primarily to your penchants toward convincing yourself of the validity of your unstudied understanding of the subjects you claim to be proficient in.
At the moment, I have no faith in many of your claims simply because you refuse to correct past mistakes.
As far as I'm concerned, a good deal of your world class reloading experience should be taken as little more than a charlatans convincing trick, with no appeal to significant statistical testing.
Keep licking lads, the taste is about to get far worse than shit.
Surely you can say something of substance by now.
Aren't you tired of being dismissed as a simpleton F$#k W*t
Of for f&%ks sake, "The hide is on Greg's side" You're as delusional & bullshit infested as Dykstra.
I must admit, this is one of the better ones I've seen. Far more imagination than most. My cock aint that small though.
As it turns out, no. Go & look at some of his vids & tell us all honestly that you agree.
The guy is up himself &, knowing your previous comments & what appears to me to be your general view, I find it difficult to believe that you really think this cock is worthy of your backing.
He's put a video out there for all to see & you honestly don't believe he should be held accountable?
Whatever though.
I think it's more a case that you don't wish to side with the guy who's calling him out.
Typical gutless politician.
Voting for Biden are you?
You should, with an attitude like you have at the moment.
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Anyhow, what's the go with Alligator pic?
I reckon you'd be better off with a pic of poofter cum dump, offering his ass to whoever turns up.
Yeah, you're right. It's just that I know how much some of the lads like the love talk. It's all about the thrill of the chase.
Well, I usually don’t respond to bluster and name calling, but I’ll give you one.
It’s because it just doesn’t matter to me. Not one fucking bit, what Greg does or says nor how he makes his money. I’m done bothering to concern myself about things that I can’t change and that don’t matter.
And frankly, you’re looking petulant and petty in this endeavor. There’s no getting around that.
If you disagree with his videos and such, there's far better and more mature ways to go about it. I think that's the point people are making.
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Man it's getting spicey in here again. Of all the dumbshit to argue about. Does it shoot good enough for you? Are you on the cutting edge of developing accurate rifles and loads? Or are you just trying to enjoy some pretty dang good ammo and have a good time shooting. I still annral like Orkans old video. That was actually how I did it before the video also.
For a guy that thinks he's so smart, one would think you'd have the multi-quote feature of the forum figured out. Opening this thread today, the way you clicked reply all those times, felt like watching someone fall down the stairs.
Is this the anecdotal "no proof" thing you were referring to?
Now kindly post some video evidence of your capabilities with a precision rifle.
Surely you wouldn't be trying to apply a burden of proof to me, that you yourself couldn't meet... would you? Surely your load room allows you to load a cartridge at the bench, slide over to the window and shoot, right? I mean someone as important in the firearms community as yourself... surely you don't live in a suburb? No, definitely not, because to be able to dismiss everything I say, you must have thousands of rounds down range per month, like me, or MORE than me... to do that, right? You must be a somebody in this industry, surely? Who are you, again? Does anyone know you? Dudes I've never met in my life in here calling me by my name. lol Pretty strange actually.
I've mentored hundreds of shooters in person. I've mentored thousands more remotely. I've served content to tens of millions across several decades. I keep having more people ask to be mentored. Are you seriously going to sit here and say, after all your carrying on about my attitude, and my widely known reputation for being unbelievably hostile toward people, that it's my "charm" bringing all these people from all over the world to my facility wanting to be taught, rather than my capabilities? It's my excellent attitude keeping them coming back over and over again?
lol
Right...
You can claim my channel has no substance if you like, yet anyone that goes to watch a few videos, even just from this past year, will find more substance that will directly affect their ability to produce desirable results on target than any other channel in this space. That's because I focus on the content and not trying to gain followers and be "cool." I spent more time and effort teaching people high level understanding about brass this past year alone than any channel has in the history of the platform. Those that are looking to shoot small consistently find exactly what they are after.
The techniques I teach work better than most. The evidence of this is everywhere and has been for 20 years. That's why they want to learn it.
Long ago, I learned that there is no satisfying the burden of proof for a guy like you. As soon as I learned that, I stopped caring whether anyone felt I proved something or not. I share the information, and they can go prove it for themselves, or piss off. As a result, I'm free. Feels nice.
This is the part where I comment about how mentally ill you have to be to hate my content so much, and yet keep watching it. So go ahead. Keep watching. Keep seething. While you're working your job that has nothing to do with any of this, I'm living this discipline, every day, all day. You go ahead and watch and you go ahead and run your mouth... because clearly that's all you're capable of doing.That 10 year old annealing video? You keep assuming and proclaiming I didn't have the brass hardness tested to confirm my process. You keep claiming the video is anecdotal. It wasn't. Anyone can repeat my method exactly as instructed while standing next to a vickers machine today, and confirm for themselves exactly what my findings were. You repeatedly saying something false, doesn't make it false.
Now that it's very obvious to me that I'm dealing with a psychopath, I won't be responding to you further. I feel sorry for you. Legitimately. You're obviously going through some stuff. You've obviously been going through it for a very long time. Whatever it is, you won't find the answers here. If you had any joy in your life at all, you'd understand that none of what you're trying to do to me, will work. Everything you are doing, makes me stronger, and you weaker... and it's really sad you don't understand this. You'd have better luck pounding your bare fist against 50 tons of solid steel than you'll have trying to put a dent in me. That accurately conveys my feelings on your attempts here. I'm sure you're still glad you decided to call me in here. This is probably the most attention you've received for a while.
Go work on something constructive. It's there you'll find fulfillment. You'll never find it trying to tear someone else down. Not ever. Not anyone, and certainly not me. I do legitimately hope you figure out whatever went wrong in your life to have you this obsessed with me. Yet whether you do, or you don't, I won't be there for it.
For a guy that thinks he's so smart, one would think you'd have the multi-quote feature of the forum figured out. Opening this thread today, the way you clicked reply all those times, felt like watching someone fall down the stairs.
Is this the anecdotal "no proof" thing you were referring to?
Now kindly post some video evidence of your capabilities with a precision rifle.
Surely you wouldn't be trying to apply a burden of proof to me, that you yourself couldn't meet... would you? Surely your load room allows you to load a cartridge at the bench, slide over to the window and shoot, right? I mean someone as important in the firearms community as yourself... surely you don't live in a suburb? No, definitely not, because to be able to dismiss everything I say, you must have thousands of rounds down range per month, like me, or MORE than me... to do that, right? You must be a somebody in this industry, surely? Who are you, again? Does anyone know you? Dudes I've never met in my life in here calling me by my name. lol Pretty strange actually.
I've mentored hundreds of shooters in person. I've mentored thousands more remotely. I've served content to tens of millions across several decades. I keep having more people ask to be mentored. Are you seriously going to sit here and say, after all your carrying on about my attitude, and my widely known reputation for being unbelievably hostile toward people, that it's my "charm" bringing all these people from all over the world to my facility wanting to be taught, rather than my capabilities? It's my excellent attitude keeping them coming back over and over again?
lol
Right...
You can claim my channel has no substance if you like, yet anyone that goes to watch a few videos, even just from this past year, will find more substance that will directly affect their ability to produce desirable results on target than any other channel in this space. That's because I focus on the content and not trying to gain followers and be "cool." I spent more time and effort teaching people high level understanding about brass this past year alone than any channel has in the history of the platform. Those that are looking to shoot small consistently find exactly what they are after.
The techniques I teach work better than most. The evidence of this is everywhere and has been for 20 years. That's why they want to learn it.
Long ago, I learned that there is no satisfying the burden of proof for a guy like you. As soon as I learned that, I stopped caring whether anyone felt I proved something or not. I share the information, and they can go prove it for themselves, or piss off. As a result, I'm free. Feels nice.
That 10 year old annealing video? You keep assuming and proclaiming I didn't have the brass hardness tested to confirm my process. You keep claiming the video is anecdotal. It wasn't. Anyone can repeat my method exactly as instructed while standing next to a vickers machine today, and confirm for themselves exactly what my findings were. You repeatedly saying something false, doesn't make it false.
Now that it's very obvious to me that I'm dealing with a psychopath, I won't be responding to you further. I feel sorry for you. Legitimately. You're obviously going through some stuff. You've obviously been going through it for a very long time. Whatever it is, you won't find the answers here. If you had any joy in your life at all, you'd understand that none of what you're trying to do to me, will work. Everything you are doing, makes me stronger, and you weaker... and it's really sad you don't understand this. You'd have better luck pounding your bare fist against 50 tons of solid steel than you'll have trying to put a dent in me. That accurately conveys my feelings on your attempts here. I'm sure you're still glad you decided to call me in here. This is probably the most attention you've received for a while.
Go work on something constructive. It's there you'll find fulfillment. You'll never find it trying to tear someone else down. Not ever. Not anyone, and certainly not me. I do legitimately hope you figure out whatever went wrong in your life to have you this obsessed with me. Yet whether you do, or you don't, I won't be there for it.
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After all those accomplishments you're still insufferably thin skinned. Why?
What accomplishments? I didn't even mention anything that I think is an accomplishment. That's just very few of my normal daily goings on around here.
What makes you think I'm thin skinned? The fact that I responded at all? Truth is, I don't respond 99% of the time anymore. This is evidenced by my (until this thread) complete lack of activity here, (or anywhere, really) despite people trying to call me into things frequently. Which I find so odd, until I remember that broken people need drama. So if you think me deciding to have a little fun in the most absurd example of a shunned-man-crush I've seen in the last decade counts as this piercing my skin and bothering me... lol, I guess who am I to argue with whatever you think I'm thinking.
After all, you clearly know my mind better than I, right?
You claiming I'm thin skinned, doesn't make it so. It just means you're attempting to insult me. That's nothing new, and it doesn't bother me. The real question is, why you feel the need to try to insult me in the first place? It's always the same people, day in day out around here, insulting others and thinking its cool.
You don't see me initiating contact with any of you. lol Then you claim me responding when I'm directly quoted means my feelings are hurt.
For a guy that thinks he's so smart, one would think you'd have the multi-quote feature of the forum figured out. Opening this thread today, the way you clicked reply all those times, felt like watching someone fall down the stairs.
Is this the anecdotal "no proof" thing you were referring to?
Now kindly post some video evidence of your capabilities with a precision rifle.
Surely you wouldn't be trying to apply a burden of proof to me, that you yourself couldn't meet... would you? Surely your load room allows you to load a cartridge at the bench, slide over to the window and shoot, right? I mean someone as important in the firearms community as yourself... surely you don't live in a suburb? No, definitely not, because to be able to dismiss everything I say, you must have thousands of rounds down range per month, like me, or MORE than me... to do that, right? You must be a somebody in this industry, surely? Who are you, again? Does anyone know you? Dudes I've never met in my life in here calling me by my name. lol Pretty strange actually.
I've mentored hundreds of shooters in person. I've mentored thousands more remotely. I've served content to tens of millions across several decades. I keep having more people ask to be mentored. Are you seriously going to sit here and say, after all your carrying on about my attitude, and my widely known reputation for being unbelievably hostile toward people, that it's my "charm" bringing all these people from all over the world to my facility wanting to be taught, rather than my capabilities? It's my excellent attitude keeping them coming back over and over again?
lol
Right...
You can claim my channel has no substance if you like, yet anyone that goes to watch a few videos, even just from this past year, will find more substance that will directly affect their ability to produce desirable results on target than any other channel in this space. That's because I focus on the content and not trying to gain followers and be "cool." I spent more time and effort teaching people high level understanding about brass this past year alone than any channel has in the history of the platform. Those that are looking to shoot small consistently find exactly what they are after.
The techniques I teach work better than most. The evidence of this is everywhere and has been for 20 years. That's why they want to learn it.
Long ago, I learned that there is no satisfying the burden of proof for a guy like you. As soon as I learned that, I stopped caring whether anyone felt I proved something or not. I share the information, and they can go prove it for themselves, or piss off. As a result, I'm free. Feels nice.
That 10 year old annealing video? You keep assuming and proclaiming I didn't have the brass hardness tested to confirm my process. You keep claiming the video is anecdotal. It wasn't. Anyone can repeat my method exactly as instructed while standing next to a vickers machine today, and confirm for themselves exactly what my findings were. You repeatedly saying something false, doesn't make it false.
Now that it's very obvious to me that I'm dealing with a psychopath, I won't be responding to you further. I feel sorry for you. Legitimately. You're obviously going through some stuff. You've obviously been going through it for a very long time. Whatever it is, you won't find the answers here. If you had any joy in your life at all, you'd understand that none of what you're trying to do to me, will work. Everything you are doing, makes me stronger, and you weaker... and it's really sad you don't understand this. You'd have better luck pounding your bare fist against 50 tons of solid steel than you'll have trying to put a dent in me. That accurately conveys my feelings on your attempts here. I'm sure you're still glad you decided to call me in here. This is probably the most attention you've received for a while.
Go work on something constructive. It's there you'll find fulfillment. You'll never find it trying to tear someone else down. Not ever. Not anyone, and certainly not me. I do legitimately hope you figure out whatever went wrong in your life to have you this obsessed with me. Yet whether you do, or you don't, I won't be there for it.
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Nice videos.
I anneal because it produces very good ammo. Some disagree but thats reloading.
Don't stoop to their level, You have nothing to prove, let it go.What accomplishments? I didn't even mention anything that I think is an accomplishment. That's just very few of my normal daily goings on around here.
What makes you think I'm thin skinned? The fact that I responded at all? Truth is, I don't respond 99% of the time anymore. This is evidenced by my (until this thread) complete lack of activity here, (or anywhere, really) despite people trying to call me into things frequently. Which I find so odd, until I remember that broken people need drama. So if you think me deciding to have a little fun in the most absurd example of a shunned-man-crush I've seen in the last decade counts as this piercing my skin and bothering me... lol, I guess who am I to argue with whatever you think I'm thinking.
After all, you clearly know my mind better than I, right?
You claiming I'm thin skinned, doesn't make it so. It just means you're attempting to insult me. That's nothing new, and it doesn't bother me. The real question is, why you feel the need to try to insult me in the first place? It's always the same people, day in day out around here, insulting others and thinking its cool.
You don't see me initiating contact with any of you. lol Then you claim me responding when I'm directly quoted means my feelings are hurt.
SJC
This guy has everything to prove.
There has been quite a few who have questioned his explanations on primer position/crushing & found it wanting.
Don't be so quick to dismiss other extremely competent reloaders who actually bother to test in a meaningful way as apposed to Greg who simply states his own facts without a skerrick of proof.
Maybe so Super but, I'd like to think you come on here to learn the truth when you want to know something &, so do I.
I listen to all manner of different ideas, few of which are presented in the same way that Greg presents his "ideas" presented as facts which, were totally wrong.
It's not the fact that Greg was wrong the irks me. It's the fact that he presented all that utter crap he spoke as 1st rate rate fact &, continues to do so.
On top of that, Greg seems to believe that he's he's Gods gift to the reloading community because he has a window to shoot out of.
He understands & presents nothing of statistical significance & expects his viewers to believe him without reservation.
I really don't think I'm attacking him unduly. I expect the same as he professes.
To be honest Lash, I can't argue with you.
My last comment about you was completely out of line & I apologise.
The comment about you giving your ass & such was out of line, especially to you.
This Greg bastard really shits me though. He tells everyone how he is the most knowledgeable without one shred of proof.
Greg's vid which really pissed me off was the one about Bronze brushes not damaging barrels.
So, if I'm not mistaken, he's published a vid which directly contradicts the measured opinion of arguably the top barrel manufacturers in the world & treats their word like shit, with no other reasoning other than bronze is softer than Barrel steel.
As far as I knew, the barrel makers were referring to bronze brushes in combination with honing compound & battery drills.
Now again, that cock Greg can thinks what he likes but, when he publishes a video rubbishing guys who know so much more than he does, I just get the shits.
You Guys can do what you want but, I'll be fucked if I'm gonna hide behind pier pressure when it comes to an arsehole like him.
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Maybe but, I won't put up with bullshit artists & liars.Attack ? Seems more like a scream for attention .
Greg, I've watched many of your vids which, usually go all right until you state that you won't compromise &, that there's no one who has the fidelity or knowledge to reload like yourself. You could save yourself embarrassment by recognising that if you're going to measure the differences of primer seating depths, you could at least go to the trouble of listing the time delta between crushed & non crushed primers.What accomplishments? I didn't even mention anything that I think is an accomplishment. That's just very few of my normal daily goings on around here.
What makes you think I'm thin skinned? The fact that I responded at all? Truth is, I don't respond 99% of the time anymore. This is evidenced by my (until this thread) complete lack of activity here, (or anywhere, really) despite people trying to call me into things frequently. Which I find so odd, until I remember that broken people need drama. So if you think me deciding to have a little fun in the most absurd example of a shunned-man-crush I've seen in the last decade counts as this piercing my skin and bothering me... lol, I guess who am I to argue with whatever you think I'm thinking.
After all, you clearly know my mind better than I, right?
You claiming I'm thin skinned, doesn't make it so. It just means you're attempting to insult me. That's nothing new, and it doesn't bother me. The real question is, why you feel the need to try to insult me in the first place? It's always the same people, day in day out around here, insulting others and thinking its cool.
You don't see me initiating contact with any of you. lol Then you claim me responding when I'm directly quoted means my feelings are hurt.
Besides the fact that you are totally ignorant of the time differential of a moving firing pin over the distance of 0.001", you seem totally oblivious to this fact &, continue to make grand claims to your dull but adoring audience of the imagined significance.
I am tired of you buddy. You have zero idea of what is required to achieve meaningful testing & I find it embarrassing. You obviously have no idea of the physics of which you appeal to.
You fool yourself that your number of adherents represents your relative knowledge base however, you pale in significance to those physicists who have vastly more knowledge than yourself &, know how to measure that knowledge.
You are nothing more than the embodiment of "I reason, therefore I know"
I can show you scientific experiments conducted by real scientists.
You can find them quite easily yourself by simply Googling scientific articles. The articles or white paters are usually from Arlington.
There are hundreds of them on all manner of small arms or, are you still prepared to side with an uneducated dropkick like Dykstra.
For example: Dykstra claims that his primer seater makes a lot difference if you seat your primers 0.001 or 0.002 deeper with regard to crush.
I find that interesting when the latest scientific testing conducted by contracted physicists measures a n average difference of approximately 5Kpi across a ten shot sample with a peak of approximately 25Kpi ES, measured with specially manufactured instrumentation at the base of the primer.
If you're smart, you'll ask questions, if you're a Dykstra arse licker, you'll dig yourself a deeper hole.
Now, if you can suggest how 0.001" can effect those kinds of pressures, I'd like to hear your explanations.
As fast as you are to make assumptions, I find it hard to believe you are a real man of science. I merely ask you to show YOUR experiments on the subject, and in response all I get are insults and more of your psychotic fascination of Greg/Orkan.
Greg Dykstra - I didn't even know that was Orkan/Primal Rights, Inc. I've watched two videos of his to date and just in the past two days. I've no issues with his annealing video and thought it was a really informative video that supports my findings with the benefits of annealing. I don't agree with his bronze brush drill bit method he demonstrated in his video, but that doesn't mean I discredit everything else he does. Did you know you can both agree and disagree with the same person who presents information/argument/conclusion? No need to wear butterfly wings, lipstick, tuck your dick between your legs and go stalk that person on the internet forums because one thing they said or did wasn't to your liking.
I certainly intend to watch many more of Greg's videos. I'll use my longstanding approach of discernment when I do so. I'll have mental columns of what I agree with and what I don't. Like a sane person will do. Then I will choose to test for myself what works for my shooting program and implement any new TTPs I deem worthy.
you should put a tuner on your rifle and tighten your groups up
That's the joy of free speech (yes, there isn't completely free speech, but in general people post what they want) and the internet. If you don't agree or like the video, move on, or make your own giving your reasons for you opinion.
In the case of bad info, you'll almost never save anyone from something they want to believe in or appeals to their logic (be it right or wrong). I've been down this path on forums in the past, and you just don't accomplish anything. Almost no one is going to get everything right. Especially in this industry where fluid dynamics come into play and without the proper education and equipment, you'll never know exactly what's going on.
You're so spicy frisky this morning!
Ok, I don't agree with the over annealing at 4 seconds and that the orange flame means the brass is ruined. Doesn't mean I'm putting my gimp suit on with lipstick and hunt Orkan down on the gun forums!
That is a 9yr old video and I wonder if @orkan's thinking on this is still the same?
It would be possible, with the same equipment that AMP uses, to test Orkan's hypothesis that the orange flame (or the time when the neck glows) achieves the optimal annealing state (Vickers hardness of 95ish). Indeed as a person who still uses a Giraud for bulk annealing (AMP for the big/expensive stuff), I would be very interested in those data.
They key thing is to run a swirl flame torch. The typical pencil tip stuff most outfits supply with their units is vastly inferior. The swirl flame gives you maximum uniformity in flame annealing. Generally it burns hotter too, so one torch will be significantly more effective. I'm only in the flame for about 4.2-4.5 seconds on my thickest brass. On average this single torch goes to full anneal in about 3 seconds. Skinny .223rem based cases with thin walls are done in 2.2 seconds or less. Thats with a single swirl flame torch on a 20lb bottle. (1lb'ers don't give as much consistency)
If you're going to stick with the pencil tip torches typical annealers come with, you'll want 2 for certain to get the best results. Annealer design limitations may vary.
The type of flame you want is illustrated in one of my videos here:
Quite right... this is exactly what someone without mental illness would have asked, before launching into a tirade. (my response to you below) Yet it isn't as if you can reasonably expect a crazy person to not act crazy. Instead, I expect exactly what has transpired... for them to be sitting around pissed off at the same thing for a decade, fixating on it, and seething about it... up to and including self-destructive behavior.
This has been done. I developed the method using vickers testing in the first place. The testing was done off site and "under the radar" out of my control, as a favor... but it was done. We had no idea what would produce the best results, until afterward. So it was as properly blind a study as I could envision. The AMP annealer didn't exist, and there was NO prior body of work to cloud our views. I submitted the cases for approval based on annealing "time" in seconds and tenths of a second. It was only after several of those tests that I came to the realization of "hey, the best results are always right here where that flame changes color." The discovery was simply a gift, in that way... because I wasn't looking for that answer, but it was the one that was revealed none the less... and to this day is the only method of setting up a flame annealer that handles every variable the brass gives us. Thickness, metallurgy, configuration, finish, etc. (however, you'll understand the evolution in my explanation below)
The key thing here being... the "best" was based on how it shot... not what hardness was achieved. The hardness results were an afterthought, and one I didn't really even care about at the time. I just wanted a brass expert to tell me what he thought "looked" the best based purely on metallurgy under the microscope based on a 60,000 PSI pressure vessel. (from what I can remember a decade ago) His findings were not conclusive on target. However, my results on target WERE conclusive.
Shortly after I published the original video. I forget what site it was on, but a forum member had a vickers and showed the data using the method I described. This was many years before the AMP was even a thing, so no one was comparing my findings to theirs at the time. I'd be interested to see that done again as well. I'd like it better documented, with my involvement to ensure my method was being done correctly this time with my most recent equipment choices and methodology. If anyone has a vickers, you have an open invite to bring it to my facility and we'll do it all on camera.
However, it isn't like a decade of my method bringing handloaders success is anecdotal at this point. That original video has been viewed over 300,000 times and my method has become THE way flame annealers are set up, rather than the tempilaq method that was commonly given before it. It has helped hundreds of thousands of people, and I was the first person to talk about it. That is all the reward I need.
Yet I'd challenge you: Are we in agreement that the hardness that AMP produces and claims is perfect, is actually where it's supposed to be? Because I'm not in agreement on that. Using the AMP press in conjunction with their annealer, is what led me to disagree with their findings in the first place. Point in fact, I think the entire discussion around annealing has been void of two major factors in the discussion until very recently. Bullet seating force and results on target.
I can take cases off the AMP annealer, seat bullets, and shoot them. Then take cases of the same batch using a flame annealer, seat bullets, shoot them, and find that the flame cases shot better. Not due to the AMP being "wrong," but due to the AMP being wrong for the best possible effect to the fullest extent of its capabilities. The annealing process, is just another lever/switch/dial that we can move to achieve desirable results. I've been able to replicate the above effects in reverse by advancing the AMP to produce a softer sample than "they" want... and dial back the flame unit to provide a harder sample. Its just another element of tuning we can use in conjunction with several other stations in the handloading process.
My argument is as follows, as succinctly as I can put it:
The discussion on annealing can not be talked about competently by shooters if we are using hardness testing as our basis for the work. Instead, the most appropriate metric to use in the discussion of annealing, is bullet seating force. Validation of those efforts and conclusions MUST be accompanied by live fire.
So, before a real discussion can be had by real shooters, the language they are using to define "right" needs to be established before work to discover "best" can be done.
Bottom line: I've done the work, I've seen the results, I've reaped the rewards, and I'm on to other things. There is currently no advancement to my shooting I can envision by spending more time on defining correct annealing methods. The AMP annealer and flame units, will both produce results which are extremely repeatable and predictable when used in conjunction with the AMP Press and high quality inline dies.
There is no discussion on annealing that I wish to be a part of that does not include bullet seating force data, as this is where it stops being academic for all shooters, and is grounded in reality in a way that cannot be argued, dismissed, or bottled up in a lab. So, no one can speak to me about annealing as a function of hardness, time, heat, thickness, metallurgy, or any other variable.
The new language for discussing annealing methodology is bullet seating force & POI shift.
Unlike a vickers machine, every handloader can and should have have access to the AMP press to validate their handloading processes if they wish. The press, is a far more important innovation than their annealer, in my opinion.
If you want to anneal correctly, you don't need a vickers... you need an AMP PRESS!
Now, my flame color change method is the starting place, and still is essentially exactly where I anneal my cases. However, the validation is done by the AMP press. I may do another video outlining how I go about that testing in the future. Upon writing this, I've pretty much expended as much effort here on this as I intend to.
This is what I've been saying for years... but until now, no one in this thread has asked. Probably because at the end of the day, they don't care... they just want to argue.
Not directed at anyone in particular: Do with it what you will. The satisfaction for unpacking this in a way that hasn't been done prior... is all I get out of it. Argue over it. Convince yourself it was your idea to begin with. Print it and hit each other with it. I don't care. You want proof? Good, go get proof. I don't need validation and my mandate is not proving things to people. My desire is to share the things I believe in... and I've done that, and will continue to. If it helps you, great. If it doesn't, well shucks, maybe something else I'll show you sometime will. Though I do enjoy speaking with folks that have reached emotional adulthood and can demonstrate the slightest bit of critical thinking capability.
As for the detractors and psychopathic stalker types... anyone that innovates anything draws the ire of mentally unwell people. It's predictable, and I stopped caring about this quite a while back. I don't owe them anything. I pissed some of you off 20 years ago, and you're still mad about it. Oh well. Not my problem. I'm sitting here with a smile on my face all day nearly every day, living the life I dreamed about when I was in my teens and early 20's. Tens of thousands of rounds per year, whenever I want... all day every day, if I want. So having unwell people get mad at me on the internet is just not something I care about.
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which brand torch head do you use / talking about? might be something to look into for our annealers / myself.... like usual, good info
They key thing is to run a swirl flame torch. The typical pencil tip stuff most outfits supply with their units is vastly inferior. The swirl flame gives you maximum uniformity in flame annealing. Generally it burns hotter too, so one torch will be significantly more effective. I'm only in the flame for about 4.2-4.5 seconds on my thickest brass. On average this single torch goes to full anneal in about 3 seconds. Skinny .223rem based cases with thin walls are done in 2.2 seconds or less. Thats with a single swirl flame torch on a 20lb bottle. (1lb'ers don't give as much consistency)
If you're going to stick with the pencil tip torches typical annealers come with, you'll want 2 for certain to get the best results. Annealer design limitations may vary.
The type of flame you want is illustrated in one of my videos here:
Quite right... this is exactly what someone without mental illness would have asked, before launching into a tirade. (my response to you below) Yet it isn't as if you can reasonably expect a crazy person to not act crazy. Instead, I expect exactly what has transpired... for them to be sitting around pissed off at the same thing for a decade, fixating on it, and seething about it... up to and including self-destructive behavior.
This has been done. I developed the method using vickers testing in the first place. The testing was done off site and "under the radar" out of my control, as a favor... but it was done. We had no idea what would produce the best results, until afterward. So it was as properly blind a study as I could envision. The AMP annealer didn't exist, and there was NO prior body of work to cloud our views. I submitted the cases for approval based on annealing "time" in seconds and tenths of a second. It was only after several of those tests that I came to the realization of "hey, the best results are always right here where that flame changes color." The discovery was simply a gift, in that way... because I wasn't looking for that answer, but it was the one that was revealed none the less... and to this day is the only method of setting up a flame annealer that handles every variable the brass gives us. Thickness, metallurgy, configuration, finish, etc. (however, you'll understand the evolution in my explanation below)
The key thing here being... the "best" was based on how it shot... not what hardness was achieved. The hardness results were an afterthought, and one I didn't really even care about at the time. I just wanted a brass expert to tell me what he thought "looked" the best based purely on metallurgy under the microscope based on a 60,000 PSI pressure vessel. (from what I can remember a decade ago) His findings were not conclusive on target. However, my results on target WERE conclusive.
Shortly after I published the original video. I forget what site it was on, but a forum member had a vickers and showed the data using the method I described. This was many years before the AMP was even a thing, so no one was comparing my findings to theirs at the time. I'd be interested to see that done again as well. I'd like it better documented, with my involvement to ensure my method was being done correctly this time with my most recent equipment choices and methodology. If anyone has a vickers, you have an open invite to bring it to my facility and we'll do it all on camera.
However, it isn't like a decade of my method bringing handloaders success is anecdotal at this point. That original video has been viewed over 300,000 times and my method has become THE way flame annealers are set up, rather than the tempilaq method that was commonly given before it. It has helped hundreds of thousands of people, and I was the first person to talk about it. That is all the reward I need.
Yet I'd challenge you: Are we in agreement that the hardness that AMP produces and claims is perfect, is actually where it's supposed to be? Because I'm not in agreement on that. Using the AMP press in conjunction with their annealer, is what led me to disagree with their findings in the first place. Point in fact, I think the entire discussion around annealing has been void of two major factors in the discussion until very recently. Bullet seating force and results on target.
I can take cases off the AMP annealer, seat bullets, and shoot them. Then take cases of the same batch using a flame annealer, seat bullets, shoot them, and find that the flame cases shot better. Not due to the AMP being "wrong," but due to the AMP being wrong for the best possible effect to the fullest extent of its capabilities. The annealing process, is just another lever/switch/dial that we can move to achieve desirable results. I've been able to replicate the above effects in reverse by advancing the AMP to produce a softer sample than "they" want... and dial back the flame unit to provide a harder sample. Its just another element of tuning we can use in conjunction with several other stations in the handloading process.
My argument is as follows, as succinctly as I can put it:
The discussion on annealing can not be talked about competently by shooters if we are using hardness testing as our basis for the work. Instead, the most appropriate metric to use in the discussion of annealing, is bullet seating force. Validation of those efforts and conclusions MUST be accompanied by live fire.
So, before a real discussion can be had by real shooters, the language they are using to define "right" needs to be established before work to discover "best" can be done.
Bottom line: I've done the work, I've seen the results, I've reaped the rewards, and I'm on to other things. There is currently no advancement to my shooting I can envision by spending more time on defining correct annealing methods. The AMP annealer and flame units, will both produce results which are extremely repeatable and predictable when used in conjunction with the AMP Press and high quality inline dies.
There is no discussion on annealing that I wish to be a part of that does not include bullet seating force data, as this is where it stops being academic for all shooters, and is grounded in reality in a way that cannot be argued, dismissed, or bottled up in a lab. So, no one can speak to me about annealing as a function of hardness, time, heat, thickness, metallurgy, or any other variable.
The new language for discussing annealing methodology is bullet seating force & POI shift.
Unlike a vickers machine, every handloader can and should have have access to the AMP press to validate their handloading processes if they wish. The press, is a far more important innovation than their annealer, in my opinion.
If you want to anneal correctly, you don't need a vickers... you need an AMP PRESS!
Now, my flame color change method is the starting place, and still is essentially exactly where I anneal my cases. However, the validation is done by the AMP press. I may do another video outlining how I go about that testing in the future. Upon writing this, I've pretty much expended as much effort here on this as I intend to.
This is what I've been saying for years... but until now, no one in this thread has asked. Probably because at the end of the day, they don't care... they just want to argue.
Not directed at anyone in particular: Do with it what you will. The satisfaction for unpacking this in a way that hasn't been done prior... is all I get out of it. Argue over it. Convince yourself it was your idea to begin with. Print it and hit each other with it. I don't care. You want proof? Good, go get proof. I don't need validation and my mandate is not proving things to people. My desire is to share the things I believe in... and I've done that, and will continue to. If it helps you, great. If it doesn't, well shucks, maybe something else I'll show you sometime will. Though I do enjoy speaking with folks that have reached emotional adulthood and can demonstrate the slightest bit of critical thinking capability.
As for the detractors and psychopathic stalker types... anyone that innovates anything draws the ire of mentally unwell people. It's predictable, and I stopped caring about this quite a while back. I don't owe them anything. I pissed some of you off 20 years ago, and you're still mad about it. Oh well. Not my problem. I'm sitting here with a smile on my face all day nearly every day, living the life I dreamed about when I was in my teens and early 20's. Tens of thousands of rounds per year, whenever I want... all day every day, if I want. So having unwell people get mad at me on the internet is just not something I care about.
....yeah. I dont think I want to fucking anneal anymore.
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