Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

[Barelstroker]

Did you read the OPs post?

1)The biggest myth is that you can easily over anneal cartridge brass.

You can easily over anneal cartage brass. You can easily get too much heat into the case head without pointing the torch at it. Get it too hot and its ability to hold a bullet or it own shape under mild pressure are greatly compromised. I have seen the effects of over annealing brass. It resulted in cracked necks, splits in shoulders, and in some cases neck was stretched part way into the freebore. I will have to see if my Dad still has the cases. He read," heat them until they just start to glow." That is what he did. Wrong glow. Daylight bright. He used a pan of water to keep the heat out of the case head. Over anneal and your cases are ruined. There is no doubt. Anyone who doesn't believe me, go get your touch and heat a case neck until it is red. You actually don't have to go quite this far to achieve the same results. You will easily be able to smash the mouth of the case closed with your fingers. Try that with a new case.

For most who reload, if the brasses accuracy potential is ruined, the brass is ruined.

Anneal inconsistently and you are almost wasting your time.

I anneal all my cases for 10 sec minimum at around 1400 F with the case head in water. This assures me of 100% recrystallization & I've experienced none of the problems you mentioned. My cases size perfectly, seating force measured with a gauge is wonderfully consistent. I've annealed over 1000 cases like this now, with not one spot of bother.
After every firing, the cases look perfectly normal with normal case growth of a few thou.
By the way, when annealing, my case neck/shoulder glows like a light bulb filament &, not a skerrick of damage.
You guys really should stop talking this nonsense.
No nickel separation, no dead brass &, certainly, definitely not over annealed.

 

[918v]

Tell us about your hand loads. How do you size, how close to the lands do you seat your bullets, what kind of accuracy do you get, and finally what kind of rifles do you shoot?

 

[supercorndogs]

I anneal all my cases for 15 sec minimum at around 1400 F with the case head in water. This assures me of 100% recrystallization & I've experienced none of the problems you mentioned. My cases size perfectly, seating force measured with a gauge is wonderfully consistent. I've annealed over 1000 cases like this now, with not one spot of bother.
After every firing, the cases look perfectly normal with normal case growth of a few thou.
By the way, when annealing, my case neck/shoulder glows like a light bulb filament &, not a skerrick of damage.
You guys really should stop talking this nonsense.
No nickel separation, no dead brass &, certainly, definitely not over annealed.

What are you using to heat the case @ 1400 F for 15 seconds? I think if you are here to change the annealing game, maybe you should start your own thread rather loud mouthing this old thing.

I can help but be susp[icoius of your use of british phrasing then followed with the use of F.

 

[supercorndogs]

Maybe show us on the chart what temp your brass is glowing like a light bulb filament at. ITs not light bulb filament because that is about 4600 F.

 

[Barelstroker]

Tell us about your hand loads. How do you size, how close to the lands do you seat your bullets, what kind of accuracy do you get, and finally what kind of rifles do you shoot?

Up to now I'm using Lee FLS dies. I've also tested mandrel neck sizing after FLS then, final neck sizing with Lee neck collet dies.
Seating depth varies. So far I've loaded from 0.005 off when possible, to 0.150+. I'm trialling a number of different weight projectiles in a Howa 1500 308 Win. I'm also loading for 2 x 243 Win rifles, 223 Rem, 270 Win & 30-30.
I've started load testing with the 308. So far, 1/2" to 1.5". Bout the same as before annealing the cases. Early days yet.
What's this got to do with what you guys were saying about over annealing & ruined brass & etc?

 

[Barelstroker]

View attachment 7471922

Maybe show us on the chart what temp your brass is glowing like a light bulb filament at. ITs not light bulb filament because that is about 4600 F.

At least salmon & higher. Metal glow colour is an estimate but, all I'm after is that the brass reaches at least 800 C.
If I polish the patina off the cases before annealing, apart from a grey mat colour from the neck to just below the shoulder, it's often hard to tell if the cases have been annealed. In most cases, no pretty rainbow or blue line &, when I can see signs, they are very faint. So even the claims about the brass changing colour as an indicator are incorrect. Pretty much any colour change is due to the general heat effect on the patina & indicates nothing as far as annealing states are concerned.

 

[Baddog 0302]

I only anneal on Wednesday after taco Tuesday. I have achieved a level of consistency never seen before by man. I use condensed fart gasses that I put in a vape device and after inhalation I blow that through the flame of my torch. I can do 50 cases with one breath with perfect results every time! My SDs are in the negatives.

What's next, "My machine is better that your machine" and in true fashion ,you need a $2500.00 machine

 

[Barelstroker]

What's next, "My machine is better that your machine" and in true fashion ,you need a $2500.00 machine

No, not at all. I don't have a machine. The only device I use is an old microwave turntable motor which, I sit my water pan on so the cases will rotate &, a Map Gas torch. I don't even time the process anymore apart from counting in my head. As long as it reaches 700 C + & stays there for at least 10 seconds, it just don't matter. Same terrific results every time.

 

[918v]

Up to now I'm using Lee FLS dies. I've also tested mandrel neck sizing after FLS then, final neck sizing with Lee neck collet dies.
Seating depth varies. So far I've loaded from 0.005 off when possible, to 0.150+. I'm trialling a number of different weight projectiles in a Howa 1500 308 Win. I'm also loading for 2 x 243 Win rifles, 223 Rem, 270 Win & 30-30.
I've started load testing with the 308. So far, 1/2" to 1.5". Bout the same as before annealing the cases. Early days yet.
What's this got to do with what you guys were saying about over annealing & ruined brass & etc?

For one, your level of experience and equipment is inadequate to render a valid opinion on the subject.

Second, over annealing destroys accuracy. It turns a consistent .3 MOA load into a sloppy MOA+ load. Basically increases groups threefold.

 

[supercorndogs]

No, not at all. I don't have a machine. The only device I use is an old microwave turntable motor which, I sit my water pan on so the cases will rotate &, a Map Gas torch. I don't even time the process anymore apart from counting in my head. As long as it reaches 700 C + & stays there for at least 10 seconds, it just don't matter. Same terrific results every time.

A torch is way more than 1400 F. 15 seconds with a MAP torch, your brass is trash. You have no idea what good results are. You have no idea what you are talking about. Quit giving bad advice.

 

[Barelstroker]

For one, your level of experience and equipment is inadequate to render a valid opinion on the subject.

Second, over annealing destroys accuracy. It turns a consistent .3 MOA load into a sloppy MOA+ load. Basically increases groups threefold.

Well, I've been metallic reloading for over 30 years &, had a lot of rifles come & go in that time, some of which have been target rifles, one of which I have retained.

As far as your claims concerning accuracy, tell me how you know? I presume, with so adamant a comment from your behalf that you've actually over annealed cases. Tell me, what's the citerior for "over annealing"?
I've read plenty of benchrest articles on neck tension with plenty of validated claims utilizing neck tensions as low as 1 & 2 Lbs. What's the difference if you get by mandrel sizing or annealing?

 

[supercorndogs]

Yeah yeah, you started annealing last week, and therefore are an expert. Cool story bro!!! You are bragging about "great results." What qualifies these results as great?

 

[Barelstroker]

A torch is way more than 1400 F. 15 seconds with a MAP torch, your brass is trash. You have no idea what good results are. You have no idea what you are talking about. Quit giving bad advice.

I presume you are being serious so, I'll give a polite answer.
I could do just the same with Oxy Acetylene, I simply hold the flame at the appropriate distance.
I started with propane but, annealing in water with the primers out, propane just isn't hot enough so, I switched to Map Gas.

 

[Steel head]

Ooof!

 

[Barelstroker]

Yeah yeah, you started annealing last week, and therefore are an expert. Cool story bro!!! You are bragging about "great results." What qualifies these results as great?

Yep, been annealing now for about 5 months &, I already know way more than you do. I tried the "normal" way of annealing &, it's rubbish. Doesn't anneal at all.

 

[supercorndogs]

If I am serious. I was wondering off you are serious. I mean, you either trolling, or have no idea what you are talking about. Its funny when someone does something for the first time and automatically becomes an expert. You are not maintaining 1400 F for 15 seconds by holding your torch away from your brass. You are either mistaken, or making up stories. If you did maintain 1400 for 15 seconds your brass is trash. You can't even get consistent results on paper. What is your measure of success?

 

[supercorndogs]

Yep, been annealing now for about 5 months &, I already know way more than you do. I tried the "normal" way of annealing &, it's rubbish. Doesn't anneal at all.

You know fuck all. You will find out, but judging by what you describe. You will spend a long time banging your head against the wall before you ever get anywhere.

 

[Steel head]

If I am serious. I was wondering off you are serious. I mean, you either trolling, or have no idea what you are talking about. Its funny when someone does something for the first time and automatically becomes an expert. You are not maintaining 1400 F for 15 seconds by holding your torch away from your brass. You are either mistaken, or making up stories.

Back away, your not ready for a player of that caliber! lol

This site is full of great information and epic comedy!

 

[Barelstroker]

If I am serious. I was wondering off you are serious. I mean, you either trolling, or have no idea what you are talking about. Its funny when someone does something for the first time and automatically becomes an expert. You are not maintaining 1400 F for 15 seconds by holding your torch away from your brass. You are either mistaken, or making up stories.

This is just sad. So you are telling me that plumbers who braze with oxy acetylene can't adjust the temp of the flames on the copper pipe so they don't melt the copper? Seems to me like you're having an episode. Try a big glass of water & a lie down, then come back.

 

[supercorndogs]

This is not plumbing, and I said nothing of the sort. I said you are a either a retard or a troll, who has no idea what he is talking about, and you trashed your brass, but don't know what you are doing, so you dont understand that yet.

Measure of success in shooting is not plumbers not melting copper pipe.

 

[Barelstroker]

You know fuck all. You will find out, but judging by what you describe. You will spend a long time banging your head against the wall before you ever get anywhere.

Hey, maybe I will run into a problem as I continue to test but, so far, everything looks just dandy. I've certainly seen none of the issues you've mentioned.

 

[Barelstroker]

This is not plumbing, and I said nothing of the sort. I said you are a retard, who has no idea what he is talking about, and you trashed your brass, but don't know what you are doing, so you dont understand that yet.

Measure of success in shooting is not plumbers not melting copper pipe.

If you can't work out that you simply adjust the distance of the flame to reach a glow colour you want, I can't help you.

 

[supercorndogs]

I know you can't help me, that is what I have been saying. You can't help anyone because you don't have the knowledge or experience to even understand you don't have the knowledge or experience to help anyone. I am glad we finally got there though.

Oh it looks dandy??? Oh that great. Wasn't it you that said we couldn't tell anything by looking at it a minute ago?

 

[Barelstroker]

I know you can't help me, that is what I have been saying. You can't help anyone because you don't have the knowledge or experience to even understand you don't have the knowledge or experience to help anyone. I am glad we finally got there though.

Oh it looks dandy??? Oh that great. Wasn't it you that said we couldn't tell anything by looking at it a minute ago?

So tell me, how does anyone using a gas derived flame control the temperature of the workpiece, oh knowledgeable one?

 

[Barelstroker]

This is not plumbing, and I said nothing of the sort. I said you are a either a retard or a troll, who has no idea what he is talking about, and you trashed your brass, but don't know what you are doing, so you dont understand that yet.

Measure of success in shooting is not plumbers not melting copper pipe.

If I'm forced to choose, definitely a retard........I don't troll.

 

[stevenc23]

A torch is way more than 1400 F. 15 seconds with a MAP torch, your brass is trash. You have no idea what good results are. You have no idea what you are talking about. Quit giving bad advice.

 

[Barelstroker]

My brass is trash is it? Seems to work just fine.
As I said, polish the patina off & there's a very different outcome.

 

[supercorndogs]

1400 F is way too much. Glowing bright like a light bulb filament is way too much. I have destroyed brass with heat to see what happens. You start melting 1000 degree Templac, your brass is done. Dull red in a dark room, your brass will shoot fine 850-900F range. Seating pressure is not the measure you start with when you are shooting 1.5 MOA.

 

[Barelstroker]

I know you can't help me, that is what I have been saying. You can't help anyone because you don't have the knowledge or experience to even understand you don't have the knowledge or experience to help anyone. I am glad we finally got there though.

Oh it looks dandy??? Oh that great. Wasn't it you that said we couldn't tell anything by looking at it a minute ago?

Yes that's correct, it does look dandy, perfectly normal after every firing. I've seen none of the nonsense you speak of.

 

[Barelstroker]

1400 F is way too much.

I've watched the vids as well. With Erics 2nd trial, all the cases seated well, according to him.
What's your point? If it seats well &, in my case, fires normally, why is it "way too much"?
Other than your preconceived notions, I can't see what you're using as a basis.

 

[supercorndogs]

Putting it in the flame for 15 seconds is a far cry from maintaining 1400 F for 15 seconds. Just getting past 1000F is too much.

 

[Barelstroker]

Putting it in the flame for 15 seconds is a far cry from maintaining 1400 F for 15 seconds.

As I've explained &, I'm quite certain you know, it's a simple matter of adjusting the distance to the case.
To clarify; I stand the case in a water pan, which rotates on microwave turntable motor with , 1/2"water to protect the case head &, hold the torch by hand. I don't use a fixed settup like that.

 

[supercorndogs]

Held by hand, you are maintaining 1400F on a piece of brass for 15 seconds by holding the torch a certain distance from the brass.

Are you holding your hand held thermometer with the other hand? Salmon is 1500, light filament is 4600F. The second video 10 seconds is cherry 1200-1350 about. Everything past that had zero seating pressure. Salmon zero seating pressure. He also didn't shoot them.

 

[whatsupdoc]

A while back testing brass using a salt bath I ran the salt at 1040 F and immersed test brass cases
for 30 seconds and I believe 45 seconds. I used 750 F tempilaq on the case head to check if enough
heat migrated to the head to cause it to anneal.

With my setup the case heads did not reach 750F. I loaded and fired the cases and there was no loss in accuracy.

I annealed thousands of cases at 1040 F @ around 10-15 seconds and have never had a failure of any kind.
One particular batch of 6.5 creed was loaded and annealed 36 times using this process.

Now as far as heating them to 1400 F I am not so sure that is a good idea, especially with a flame as you have
no idea what temperature the brass is reaching as the water is drawing off the heat.

Also I cant believe that cheap bastard Erik Cortina is using a flame annealer and not a AMP.

 

[Barelstroker]

Held by hand, you are maintaining 1400F on a piece of brass for 15 seconds by holding the torch a certain distance from the brass.

Are you holding your hand held thermometer with the other hand? Salmon is 1500, light filament is 4600F. The second video 10 seconds is cherry 1200-1350 about. Everything past that had zero seating pressure. Salmon zero seating pressure. He also didn't shoot them.

Have you seen Erics 2nd video?
Surprisingly, it appears from Erics comments that he may not have resized for his 1st video test.
The 2nd vid produced good seating results, surprising if I recall.
As for obtaining 100% recrystallization which, is my goal, the brass has to be 700 C or more for 5 seconds or more. Since coalescence takes many hours, it is of no concern so, the time is relatively unimportant provided the temperature is high enough.

 

[Barelstroker]

A while back testing brass using a salt bath I ran the salt at 1040 F and immersed test brass cases
for 30 seconds and I believe 45 seconds. I used 750 F tempilaq on the case head to check if enough
heat migrated to the head to cause it to anneal.

With my setup the case heads did not reach 750F. I loaded and fired the cases and there was no loss in accuracy.

I annealed thousands of cases at 1040 F @ around 10-15 seconds and have never had a failure of any kind.
One particular batch of 6.5 creed was loaded and annealed 36 times using this process.

Now as far as heating them to 1400 F I am not so sure that is a good idea, especially with a flame as you have
no idea what temperature the brass is reaching as the water is drawing off the heat.

Also I cant believe that cheap bastard Erik Cortina is using a flame annealer and not a AMP.

I see absolutely no problem with salt bath annealing. When all's considered, it's a very effective method. There's more than enough mass in the salt solution to bring the cases to temperature within a few seconds at most &, most importantly, 1040 F takes the brass to recrystallization temps within your time frame. I've no doubt you'd be achieving quite good results. As an aside, AMP uses 550C (1020) so, your in good company.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Careful guys, he has a “target rifle”.

 

[Barelstroker]

Held by hand, you are maintaining 1400F on a piece of brass for 15 seconds by holding the torch a certain distance from the brass.

Are you holding your hand held thermometer with the other hand? Salmon is 1500, light filament is 4600F. The second video 10 seconds is cherry 1200-1350 about. Everything past that had zero seating pressure. Salmon zero seating pressure. He also didn't shoot them.

If you knew anything about annealing C26000 70/30 cartridge brass, you'd know that recrystallization is taken to be almost instantaneous above 700 C. You would also know that recrystallization is the mechanism which softens brass initially & that, low temperature stress relieving has little to no effect on the malleability of brass.
You'd also know that within the realms of very short time frames (seconds) the initial brass cold worked state is the primary driver of recrystallization (annealing) with regard to times & % of annealing.
To simplify all this back & forth, you could simply ask me why I'm annealing this way?
What am I basing my methods off of?
What if any issues have I had?
How do the cases size & seat.?
I know that asking simple, relevant questions like that doesn't lend well to reacting with personal attacks, vitriol & rhetoric but, you may learn something &, others may be interested as well.

 

[Barelstroker]

What are you using to heat the case @ 1400 F for 15 seconds? I think if you are here to change the annealing game, maybe you should start your own thread rather loud mouthing this old thing.

I can help but be susp[icoius of your use of british phrasing then followed with the use of F.

You must be easily spooked. I use F because many Americans mistakenly but understandably, use F & C interchangeably. It simply makes sense to converse in terms of what is commonly used.
Relax, you've nothing to worry about, if you know what you're talking about.

 

[Barelstroker]

1400 F is way too much. Glowing bright like a light bulb filament is way too much. I have destroyed brass with heat to see what happens. You start melting 1000 degree Templac, your brass is done. Dull red in a dark room, your brass will shoot fine 850-900F range. Seating pressure is not the measure you start with when you are shooting 1.5 MOA.

My brother is an F class shooter & has plenty of barrels he's going to send me.
I thought a hunting type rifle would be a good place to start actually. If I can achieve good results with that, I assume that would apply to future action/barrel combinations.
At 1000 F the brass is barely beginning to recrystallize. I know you're feeling the heat but, brass can & does take far higher annealing temps during industrial forming processes. Where do think I'm getting the information from?

 

[Barelstroker]

Back away, your not ready for a player of that caliber! lol

This site is full of great information and epic comedy!

I agree. I like this site because there is a great deal of genuine knowledge however, I'm fed up of the nonsense we see about annealing.

 

[Barelstroker]

You know fuck all. You will find out, but judging by what you describe. You will spend a long time banging your head against the wall before you ever get anywhere.

So far, I've had excellent results. The brass is undamaged, it sizes great, seating force is spectacular, firing is perfectly normal with no adverse signs &, shooting results so far, are normal with no adverse results.
You've stated, rather dogmatically that the higher temps ruin the brass, ruin accuracy, cause weird case growth after firing, burn the copper/zinc out of it. So far, none of your statements has been close to resembling any kind of reality.
I think it's obvious who knows "Fuck all"
I've added the quotation marks because I generally don't feel the need to resort to plebian language.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

A while back testing brass using a salt bath I ran the salt at 1040 F and immersed test brass cases
for 30 seconds and I believe 45 seconds. I used 750 F tempilaq on the case head to check if enough
heat migrated to the head to cause it to anneal.

With my setup the case heads did not reach 750F. I loaded and fired the cases and there was no loss in accuracy.

I annealed thousands of cases at 1040 F @ around 10-15 seconds and have never had a failure of any kind.
One particular batch of 6.5 creed was loaded and annealed 36 times using this process.

Now as far as heating them to 1400 F I am not so sure that is a good idea, especially with a flame as you have
no idea what temperature the brass is reaching as the water is drawing off the heat.

Also I cant believe that cheap bastard Erik Cortina is using a flame annealer and not a AMP.

I did a similar experiment, but used 450 tempilaq - I didn't see enough heat migration in normal anneal times to reach the case head either. I didn't shoot the brass after though, so I cannot speak to accuracy.

Also, that cheap bastard flaunted an AMP box in his latest video - expect AMP sales to jump in the next week or two

 

[Barelstroker]

What are you using to heat the case @ 1400 F for 15 seconds? I think if you are here to change the annealing game, maybe you should start your own thread rather loud mouthing this old thing.

I can help but be susp[icoius of your use of british phrasing then followed with the use of F.

Well, I did consider starting my own thread but, after reading all the comments, I thought some clarification & mild correction would be the better approach. Not to mention our old friend perpetuity. In this modern era of chat sites & YouTube comments, perpetuity can be a hard, hard mistress.
Now I just couldn't allow our mistress perpetuity to be robbed of her opportunity, now could I?

 

[supercorndogs]

A cartridge brass annealing experiment where you don't shoot the ammo. Is like a cooking experiment where you don't taste the food. We don't anneal to achieve a certain look. We don't anneal so that our brass doesn't fly apart in 1 firing. We anneal to reduce ES and SD and maintain accuracy in work hardened brass. If you couldn't shoot accurately to begin with, and your benchmarks for success are, it looks ok, the seating pressure is amazing/spectacular {what ever that is supposed to mean}, and it didnt blow up in your face. Good for you, you achieved your goals. Unfortunately those goals don't mean much as far as making accurate ammo goes.

Just because it looks like food, doesn't mean its food. Babies figure this out by taking a bite. Some babies keep on gnawing at fake food though, even after a taste. I figure their mama probably can't cook and their taste buds don't know any better.

 

[Barelstroker]

A cartridge brass annealing experiment where you don't shoot the ammo. Is like a cooking experiment where you don't taste the food. We don't anneal to achieve a certain look. We don't anneal so that our brass doesn't fly apart in 1 firing. We anneal to reduce ES and SD and maintain accuracy in work hardened brass. If you couldn't shoot accurately to begin with, and your benchmarks for success are, it looks ok, the seating pressure is amazing {what ever that is supposed to mean}, and it didnt blow up in your face.

View attachment 7472217

Just because it looks like food, doesn't mean its food. Babies figure this out by taking a bite. Some babies keep on gnawing at fake food though, even after a taste. I figure their mama probably can't cook and their taste buds don't know any better.

You will persist with adolescent belittlement.
I'd much prefer you address the nonsensical claims you've made which are patently false.
Admit it, you know nothing more than what you heard & saw on YouTube vids 10 yrs ago.
You've conducted no genuine research, you cannot quote a single brass annealing scientific study &, you've not tried any of this for yourself, have you?
I wonder if you'll have the strength of character to ask a couple of civilly structured questions & reserve judgement upon the answers.
My guess is, you will not because, you were obviously not taught as a child to behave civilly.
I'm glad you're back though, I hate it when my victims stop digging their own graves.

 

[supercorndogs]

When I ask someone questions, I tend to ask someone whom I would trust to know the correct answer.

I have loaded tens of thousands of bottle neck rifle rounds in the last 10 years. But my brother is not an F class shooter, sooooo i probably didn't learn anything.

Anyone who wants know..... Heat one up until it "glows like a light bulb filament." Heat it up to salmon color. Then smash it with your fingers. Take some good brass and a good load heat it up cherry red and go shoot it. I have done both of these things. 918v is pretty much right on the money, as far as what happened to my accuracy, and I bet he told you that because he either did the same thing, or helped someone who did.

I had not watched any of those videos until they were posted in this thread. I did not learn to anneal from you tube. Nor do I base my results on what someone on you tube said, or something I read. We use targets and chronographs to verify our results. Not eyeballs and feels.

Victims Victims of you wasting their time.

 

[Barelstroker]

When I ask someone questions, I tend to ask someone whom I would trust to know the correct answer.

I have loaded tens of thousands of bottle neck rifle rounds in the last 10 years. But my brother is not an F class shooter, sooooo i probably didn't learn anything.

Anyone who wants know..... Heat one up until it "glows like a light bulb filament." Heat it up to salmon color. Then smash it with your fingers. Take some good brass and a good load heat it up cherry red and go shoot it. I have done both of these things. 918v is pretty much right on the money, as far as what happened to my accuracy, and I bet he told you that because he either did the same thing, or helped someone who did.

I had not watched any of those videos until they were posted in this thread. I did not learn to anneal from you tube. Nor do I base my results on what someone on you tube said, or something I read. We use targets and chronographs to verify our results. Not eyeballs and feels.

Victims Victims of you wasting their time.

As I've said, the target & chronograph results are in the pipeline, but, I haven't made an issue of that. I'm wondering why you persist with your strange idea that high temps ruin brass.
I have a dozen or so scientific studies, specifically focussed on annealing of cartridge brass which, disagree with your dire warnings. Not to mention my own findings which, are based upon the information within those studies.
I would like you to show me what you've based you practices upon.
Have they any basis in scientific findings?
Does your version of annealing even work?
What % of recrystallization do you think you're achieving?
What's the brass initial hardness before annealing?
These are all very important factors that you would ofcourse be aware of had you read any of the studies available.
You claim you base you results on targets & chronograph results, pray tell, what do you consider to be the average difference in your groups &, how is this determined?
I presume you should have little difficulty explaining all this in a civilized manner since, afterall, you are the expert & should have all this information at hand.

 

[Barelstroker]

Anyone who wants know..... Heat one up until it "glows like a light bulb filament." Heat it up to salmon color. Then smash it with your fingers. Take some good brass and a good load heat it up cherry red and go shoot it. I have done both of these things.

Just out of interest, you have maintained that brass is ruined if it gets to much over 1000F. So you're stating here that, in spite of your diligent belief, you chose to heat a case to salmon colour & crush it between your fingers then, heat another to cherry red, load & test fire it?
Tell me, when you took the case to cherry red colour, did you do so with the case head in water or, did you just wing it?
Did it stretch the case head? Did the primer pocket expand?
I think you've made that up. After all you've stated, you expect me believe that you bothered to go against your firm beliefs & tested something that, as far as you knew, would not & could not work.
You made that up, didn't you?
You haven't tested that at all , have you?
By the way, my 100% recrystallized cases do not "smash down between my fingers" I have in my hand now a 243 case which I got a tad too hot & the neck is a bit mangled &, I cannot crush it between my fingers or, even put it out of shape. In all honesty, I hadn't tried that before, didn't occur to me. Now we know that's made up nonsense as well.

 

[never_summer]

If you are lighting up your cases like you say, then they are trash. MAP gas is what I use to trash a piece of brass to make case length gages, and I don’t even heat them up for that long! I do that to over soften the necks so it doesn’t have as tight of neck tension. If I took a normally annealed piece vs one that I’ve trashed, the case length gage is noticeably more difficult to remove.