Another Reason I Hate Unions

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We are emerging from an economic crisis caused by corporations run amuck
</div></div>

That is a gross oversimplification.

Chicago is waiting for construction to start up again due to a union strike. The average pay rate is 28 dollars an hour and they are upset because of an increase in health insurance premiums. Yeah they are going to get a lot of sympathy in this economy.

Chicago

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

This economy will take care of alot of the union freebies they have been getting...
Here in the border states the Mexicans are keeping the unions at Bay....

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Here's a classic example of why people here disilike unions:

You send 8 year old Johnny off to the school bus for his first day at school this year.

Wait, emergency notice on the radio - teachers union went on strike at 8AM ...

Now what do you do - well you call in sick to work and scramble to find day care?

It happens almost every year....

So of course now with the budget cuts the teachers are having to share salaries or face layoffs, 33 just laid off recently...

The school districts top 3 dogs make 250k a year and they want a new LEVY on our property tax to pay for all of this without checks and balances..

Yet the teachers take the brunt because they ARE underpaid...

My job is the same - they unionized the logistics side of the house but there is only X amount of dollars on the contract, not X+1 so of course for every 10 employees they had to lay 1 off to pay the other 9 the pay difference.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We are emerging from an economic crisis caused by corporations run amuck
</div></div>
We are not emerging, we are headed right back in. That would be the GOV'T sending us in.

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>




When unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become. </div></div>

Spot on post. </div></div>

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/290311

Worthy of consideration in regards to this argument.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

What happened to personal responsibility. You want to work in a dangerous job then you might get hurt....
I assure you there are plenty of people hurt in union shops also... So then I guess we would still have to blame some one other than a union.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>




When unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become. </div></div>

Spot on post. </div></div>

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/290311

Worthy of consideration in regards to this argument.
</div></div>

"they would have been able to refuse unsafe work" Americans can always refuse unsafe work. OSHA, EEOC, DOL...

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We are emerging from an economic crisis caused by corporations run amuck
</div></div>

That is a gross oversimplification.

</div></div>

Feel free to include the entire context of the statement instead of isolating a single sentence. Since you shudder at the simplification, allow me to elaborate. Our recession was caused by a housing market bubble that burst. That bubble burst because prices were inflated due to overwhelming demand and competition, caused by easy credit. Easy credit was caused by large lenders giving to people financially unworthy of mortgages, especially Adjustable Rate Mortages. The lenders took these risks primarily because they could, due to de-regulation starting with Clinton and running through Bush II. Once the lenders gave out large numbers of unstable mortgages, the mortgages were bundled together as mortgage-backed securities, sold to investors as an easy way to make money on the booming housing market in the US.

Then one day, people realized that ARM they had received adjusted from 2.9% to 6.9%, making them begin to default on their mortgages. The market started to hemorrage, people lost value in their houses, even more ARMs were adjusted up to the rate they should have been at in the first place due to the riskiness of the loan, and the bubble burst. The large investment houses knew this market was unstable, and while they sold the bundled mortgages to investors and funds, the firms bet against the bundled mortgages knowing that they would make a killing when the housing market adjusted itself. All the while, the enormous lenders became insolvent due to the devaluation of the loans they gave and their customers inability to pay.

So there you have it: due to corporate irresponsibility by mortgage lenders and banking institutions creating the housing market bubble, the US economy fell into the most significant recession since the Great Depression.

We are in a double dip recession mainly because we refuse to continue stimulating the economy in favor of political rhetoric. Unemployment benefits are spent back into the economy and are one of the singular most effective ways to address the economies biggest weakness: consumer demand. If people don't have money, they can't spend it. If they don't spend it, businesses lose jobs. And don't bring up the ballooning national debt... no one bitched when we were spending $10 billion a month in Iraq while we cut taxes (Rule #1 for presidents: NEVER cut taxes and go to war. Do one or the other, but never both). Americans need jobs and they need to eat, and businesses aren't making enough in revenue to give higher wages and re-invest into the market. The only way to get out of the current economic crisis is to continue stimulating the economy through deficit spending. If you cut unemployment benefits and do not further increase demand through stimulus projects, there will be fewer and fewer people to consume what the US economy creates. Once the economy rebounds, then revenue through corporate and individual taxes (gasp!) will allow us to pay down the debt. There are numerous historical precedents for this, not the least of which is our own Great Depression and New Deal era.

And how does this all relate to the original topic: unions theoretically should bargain with corporations to make necessary decisions to keep factories open and productive. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. Unions play a significant role in the economy, and we would all be better served if unions and corporations became less adversarial in their stances.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple answer here Mike, the "scabs" were putting folks out of work by willing to work for less than what the bargaining agreement was settled at. Or better yet, perhaps the company refused to sign another agreement with it's workers, either way crossing a picket line is wrong and this practice can be viewed as "stealing" work. </div></div>

"Or better yet, perhaps the company refused to sign another agreement with it's workers,"

Or we could just say the company refused to be extorted by the workers and the local and refused to lay down to the locals overwhelming demands of another above average "cost of living" increase. Meanwhile not caring two shits about how the company and its customers are losing money left and right. Remember when you are on strike you're not only hurting the company, but all of its customers down the line. But you don't care about that right, as long as you get your mandatory breaks and overtime and outlandish benefits such as lifetime pension. You want a lifetime pension, save your money. Why should the company have to pay you for the rest of your life?

These statements are so biased and one-sided it makes me laugh. So they are putting folks out of work by willing to work for less? Really? So it's not a matter of the "scabs" having NO job and are willing to work for anything, or the fact that they have an opportunity to do something they may have had an opportunity to do before with the union blocking them out. Please get a grip. Do you think someone quite their job to go "steal" someone elses union job? Get real. You think a scabs sole purpose in life is to steal a union workers job? The only people that crossing a picket line hurts are the union laborers who would no longer have any leverage if someone came in and did their job in their stead.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the way you make this seem so innocent " for the simple "crime" of trying to cross a picket line to earn a living " Mike, don't be so naive... If you were on a picket line looking for better working conditions, fair wages and "scabs" showed up to fill your job you would do the same thing, after all you would just be trying to earn a living and provide food and shelter for your family right?
</div></div>
Again, this is ridiculous. So if I'm unemployed and my mortgage is behind and I have no groceries and the car payment is behind and they're going to shut off the power and I have a chance to go load trucks at a shop and prevent all that from happening I'm going to pass it up? Screw that. I'm going to work and do whatever it takes to feed my family and pay my bills. And if you say you would not do the same, then you're a liar. Of course the picket marchers can hold out. They're getting money from their local to support their "unemployment" while on strike. But if you sit there and try and tell me you would not try to work after the money is gone then I flat out do not believe you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is not the first half of the 20th century. Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, this statement is moronic at best... It's baffling to me how ignorant you are !</div></div>

You're right, I should have said until 1980 or so.

It's baffling to me to see how biased you are! Kudos for doing your part and supporting your local. It's so obvious your one-sided argument shows you're standing their on the picket line demanding another raise so that you can make your boat/truck/camper/watercraft/motorcycle payment and add a bigger patio on to the house.

Bottom line is unions are rapidly becoming a dinosaur and the resentment for most of them grows daily.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We are emerging from an economic crisis caused by corporations run amuck
</div></div>

That is a gross oversimplification.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Feel free to include the entire context of the statement instead of isolating a single sentence.
</div></div>
</div></div>

Your post was there for all to see I didn't change the context I just isolated a statement.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Since you shudder at the simplification, allow me to elaborate.
</div></div>

Don't be a douchbag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
due to de-regulation starting with Clinton and running through Bush II.

So there you have it: due to corporate irresponsibility by mortgage lenders and banking institutions creating the housing market bubble, the US economy fell into the most significant recession since the Great Depression.

</div></div>

These statements conflict and violate the rules of the Hide..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We are in a double dip recession mainly because we refuse to continue stimulating the economy in favor of political rhetoric. Unemployment benefits are spent back into the economy and are one of the singular most effective ways to address the economies biggest weakness: consumer demand.
</div></div>

Removed: Stretching the politics thing again dude.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If people don't have money, they can't spend it. If they don't spend it, businesses lose jobs.
</div></div>

Removed: Delves into politics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And don't bring up the ballooning national debt... no one bitched when we were spending $10 billion a month in Iraq while we cut taxes

</div></div>
Would you please not go all over the board. Get the ADD in check. CBA's/PLA's only please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And how does this all relate to the original topic:
</div></div>

I have no idea dude...see my last post about ADD


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
unions theoretically should bargain with corporations to make necessary decisions to keep factories open and productive. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. Unions play a significant role in the economy, and we would all be better served if unions and corporations became less adversarial in their stances.
</div></div>

Finally on topic but I'm exhausted so have fun.


I didn't want to get into it because I didn't want to hijack the thread dude. Way to go on that one.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Canadian Unions are like Canadian COPs.

For the most part, they're good (great?) and you never hear anything about them, what they do, how they do it, what they go through, or what they achieve.

BUT;

Thanks to both the media AND the idiotic sheeple, when one does wrong then the whole group is vilified and crucified by the masses. Irregardless of any and all prior positives.

Might it be the same in the U.S.? I'm thinking so.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>




Spot on post. </div></div>

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/290311

Worthy of consideration in regards to this argument.
</div></div>

"they would have been able to refuse unsafe work" Americans can always refuse unsafe work. OSHA, EEOC, DOL... </div></div>



What world do you live in?? Refuse work?? Let your family starve?? Man I live in the real world. Are you actually naive enough to think this way?? I come from a poor family in WV. Never ever even seen a Golden Spoon. I bet you got a whole set of them. I sure hope you never have to sttruggle, because I do not think you would make it.

I sure hope you never get put in an awkward position. Oh but then you would just refuse to do it?? Alot of you guys bitch and moan about the government. Then the very second you do not like how you are being treated you fly back to the government for protection. OSHI and the rest!! Unbelievable.

I would bet the vast majority of you guys who hatte unions have ever been in one. Or been around a union. Yes they have big problems---but who doesn't. And you bitch and moan because they stand up and fight and put their funds behind who they believe will support them?? Well I guess some of you guys put your money behind somenoe you do not think will supprt you??

I know janitors who make $13 or $14 an hour for mopping floors. How many of you guys would do that. The only reaason they arec making $13 instead of $8 is because of a union. Do you begrudge them the $13 an hour?? Really?? Or do you just look down on them and laugh. WOW!!

If you have had good opportunities all your life. Then I am happy for you. But alot of peolpe do not have those oportunites. Is $13 an hour too much to feed and raise a family. Or should we just give another $100 million to a guy because he can bounce a basketball!! Unbelievable!!

Should any man in America who is willing to work be denied enough to feed his wife and kids just because he is not as smartas you, or had the same opportunities as you?? Or should a big company just be allowed to rub their noses in it, so their CEO's can go on jukets and make $10 millionor more a year??

This is America. Any one willing to work should be ENTITLED to enough pay to feed their family. And a union makes this possible. Without the Golden Spoon!! Tom.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogghead</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"they would have been able to refuse unsafe work" Americans can always refuse unsafe work. OSHA, EEOC, DOL... </div></div>



What world do you live in?? Refuse work?? Let your family starve?? Man I live in the real world. Are you actually naive enough to think this way?? I come from a poor family in WV. Never ever even seen a Golden Spoon. I bet you got a whole set of them. I sure hope you never have to sttruggle, because I do not think you would make it.

I sure hope you never get put in an awkward position. Oh but then you would just refuse to do it?? Alot of you guys bitch and moan about the government. Then the very second you do not like how you are being treated you fly back to the government for protection. OSHI and the rest!! Unbelievable.

I would bet the vast majority of you guys who hatte unions have ever been in one. Or been around a union. Yes they have big problems---but who doesn't. And you bitch and moan because they stand up and fight and put their funds behind who they believe will support them?? Well I guess some of you guys put your money behind somenoe you do not think will supprt you??

I know janitors who make $13 or $14 an hour for mopping floors. How many of you guys would do that. The only reaason they arec making $13 instead of $8 is because of a union. Do you begrudge them the $13 an hour?? Really?? Or do you just look down on them and laugh. WOW!!

If you have had good opportunities all your life. Then I am happy for you. But alot of peolpe do not have those oportunites. Is $13 an hour too much to feed and raise a family. Or should we just give another $100 million to a guy because he can bounce a basketball!! Unbelievable!!

Should any man in America who is willing to work be denied enough to feed his wife and kids just because he is not as smartas you, or had the same opportunities as you?? Or should a big company just be allowed to rub their noses in it, so their CEO's can go on jukets and make $10 millionor more a year??

This is America. Any one willing to work should be ENTITLED to enough pay to feed their family. And a union makes this possible. Without the Golden Spoon!! Tom.</div></div>

Dude you don't have to refuse employment to file a complaint with any of the organizations that I listed and if you are terminated for doing so the shit will fly.

I can't help it if you don't know this shit man. It's not my fault that you live in a bubble and get off the personal attacks dickhead. You don't know a damn thing about me.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's baffling to me to see how biased you are! Kudos for doing your part and supporting your local. It's so obvious your one-sided argument shows you're standing their on the picket line demanding another raise</div></div>
Nice try Mike, my union chapter is trying to work with it's contractors. We voted to put a freeze on all pay raises since 2008, and for 2010 we voted for a $10 per hour pay cut on all new work to help the contractors secure more work. On another note, if you think union workers are making a killing due to their contracts you need to think again, we make a living. Infact union wages are $30 per hour vs non-union wages at $21 per hour , but all bids coming in are almost exact. What does that tell you? The non-union contractors are charging the same rates as a union shop, but the non-union shop pays it's workers less to increase it's profit.
That old saying holds true... "You can lead a horse to water"</div></div>

Proposals are irrespective of the negotiations that take place before the contract is signed. A savvy business man would get a hell of savings by negotiating comparative margin from the non union shop.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

This is a classic struggle between owners and employees.
The owners risk everything, study, put in thier dues, work way more than 40 hour work week. ( they do not get off on week ends )
Until you own your own Company you do not have a clue what it takes to start and run a company. The risk, stress, involved will blow your mind.
Yet, the employees think they are entitled to more. ( bull shit. )The job is worth what ever the market will bare. Just as prices we sell for is based on what the market will bare. If you as an employee do not like it then do something about it. ( like study,read,go to college,) But you have to put your beer down and give up your football watching or Nascar on the week ends. Take risks, Then you will get to bear the fruit.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

T-Bolt makes some good points.

I'm an owner, I get up to pee at 2am and I'll look at my Blackberry on the way by the bathroom counter....I doubt my employees do the same.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

MEAT4272,
Sounds like that contractor is real smart, He is going to make better margin. That is called good business.
What blows me away is the unions probably think that that extra margin should be theirs.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">T-Bolt makes some good points.

I'm an owner, I get up to pee at 2am and I'll look at my Blackberry on the way by the bathroom counter....I doubt my employees do the same.</div></div>

I am not an owner but I am an executive and I am working/on call 24/7.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogghead</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"they would have been able to refuse unsafe work" Americans can always refuse unsafe work. OSHA, EEOC, DOL... </div></div>



What world do you live in?? Refuse work?? Let your family starve?? Man I live in the real world. Are you actually naive enough to think this way?? I come from a poor family in WV. Never ever even seen a Golden Spoon. I bet you got a whole set of them. I sure hope you never have to sttruggle, because I do not think you would make it.

I sure hope you never get put in an awkward position. Oh but then you would just refuse to do it?? Alot of you guys bitch and moan about the government. Then the very second you do not like how you are being treated you fly back to the government for protection. OSHI and the rest!! Unbelievable.

I would bet the vast majority of you guys who hatte unions have ever been in one. Or been around a union. Yes they have big problems---but who doesn't. And you bitch and moan because they stand up and fight and put their funds behind who they believe will support them?? Well I guess some of you guys put your money behind somenoe you do not think will supprt you??

I know janitors who make $13 or $14 an hour for mopping floors. How many of you guys would do that. The only reaason they arec making $13 instead of $8 is because of a union. Do you begrudge them the $13 an hour?? Really?? Or do you just look down on them and laugh. WOW!!

If you have had good opportunities all your life. Then I am happy for you. But alot of peolpe do not have those oportunites. Is $13 an hour too much to feed and raise a family. Or should we just give another $100 million to a guy because he can bounce a basketball!! Unbelievable!!

Should any man in America who is willing to work be denied enough to feed his wife and kids just because he is not as smartas you, or had the same opportunities as you?? Or should a big company just be allowed to rub their noses in it, so their CEO's can go on jukets and make $10 millionor more a year??

This is America. Any one willing to work should be ENTITLED to enough pay to feed their family. And a union makes this possible. Without the Golden Spoon!! Tom.</div></div>

Dude you don't have to refuse employment to file a complaint with any of the organizations that I listed and if you are terminated for doing so the shit will fly.

I can't help it if you don't know this shit man. It's not my fault that you live in a bubble and get off the personal attacks dickhead. You don't know a damn thing about me. </div></div>


So just run to the government and ask them to save you?? Or run to court for a lawsuit?? Funny! Real funny!! Then bitch because Obama is over regulating??

Do you know the difference between right to work states, and states that do not have that law?? In most states they do not even need a reason to fire you, they can just do it. Unless you are in a union!! And then you think Uncle Sam is gonna bail you out?? When you go to Uncle Sam for help you better be a minority or a woman, because if you are a white fellow you will just give them a good laugh. Tom.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

ZLbuuba,
What happen to personal responsibilty, I do not think those big mean mortgage companies held a gun to those peoples head and made them sign a mortgage they could not afford..
I believe it was BARNEY and friends that wanted as well as pushed the lenders to lend to the people that really could not afford the mortgages.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

TBolt does make good points - and HOGHEAD as well with the coal mines - a union SHOULD be in place there, OSHA doesn't go down into those mines near as often as they should.

SO I will backtrack a tad there...

But there are other places where unions DO go bad - see my post above about the GM unions.

Bubba is spot on about the economy tanking the way it did.
A friend here at work used to get IRATE about how these commerciasl would say "BAd credit or Bankruptcy, no problem come see us" - he values his good credit rating.
Right now I was almost turned down for a REFI because I don't have revolving debt, in fact I have ZERO debt other than my mortgage which I could live without...


So unless you are in a dangerous job, Unions DO extort companies in many cases - LONGSHOREMEN tell me that's not the case? It is...a Longshoreman or Union can destroy a small business if it so wanted to...

But again when the union member pulled up in his Cadillac Escapade I already told him to take a hike in my mind - you unioin workers PAID for that vehicle.


FYI whoever said the picketers get a supplement - I hate unions but I also hate that they only get $25 a day for picketing, maybe it's gone up slightly but when my step dad had to go on strike that is what he got paid....er 20 years ago LOL


OH yeah last important piece of info:


60 day strike at $30 an hour = $9600

$1.00 pay raise = $1920 a year. It will take you 10 years to make up the difference you striked for ...

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

HOGGHEAD, I do not waste my time watching overpaid cry baby athletes, but some one is, and that is what is paying them. It is call Capitialism.
It is what makes our country great.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Shark, you provide absolutely no data of your own to refute me. Do you take issue that corporate responsibility caused the economic crisis? If you do, please explain why. Clearly it's easier for you to disagree than to provide reasoned arguments supported by data. Too easy, I got it, we can each take our toys and go home. You and I are two playing different games here.

TB, I respect your position as a business owner. We can demand personal responsibility so long as we demand corporate responsibility. When these banks begged for bailouts after their assets devalued, that's when they crossed the line. Privatized success with socialized failure is no way to run a business. And it's not capitalism that makes America great. It's Her people.

 

[BALLISTIC]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

WOW, there is a lot of animosity around here.

I don't have much experience with unions, but from what I know, they are like everything else, some good shit, and some bad.

I have seen non-union electrical work in my area, and it is amazing the shit they do, and not in a good way.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shark, you provide absolutely no data of your own to refute me. Do you take issue that corporate responsibility caused the economic crisis? If you do, please explain why.</div></div>

I did but then I deleted it because it is not an appropriate discussion for this forum and violates the rules of use.

Please stop trying to hijack this thread. The economic crisis does help to illustrate the necessity for cost reduction which is a small part of this discussion. Union labor is always associated with higher cost and is a key part of the problem. The cause of the economic crisis can only be discussed by introducing politics into the discussion and I'm not going to follow you down that path.

 

[tullius]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

MORE COWBELL!

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

We need a new post "Why I hate assholes who start posts like this one".

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Seems like some here like to clump all unions into the same group and consider them all the same just like all the anti gun people like to clump all us gun owners in the same group. Someone shoots up a school and they want to ban every gun. Some union messes up and you all want to paint them all with the same brush.

There's good and bad everywhere. Not every business owner is a saint. I am sure some are real assholes that build their business off the sweat and hard work of others and treat them like shit. Same with unions so don't make generalizations that all unions are bad. They aren't.

One quick question, how many of the union haters here have ever been in a union?

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One quick question, how many of the union haters here have ever been in a union? </div></div>

Avoided at all costs. Nope never, anit gunna! I have worked with them and it drives me crazy. I Cannot stand around and wait on other people to do a job that should have been completed 12 hours ago.
I could tell stories about it, but I won’t.

I'm sure it basically boils down to management of the union. If your honest your honest. If you’re a crook, you’re going to find ways to get more money for that job. Even though that job should have been completed in the original said time frame. Are the larger unions to blame? Are the smaller ones ok?

It's a little easier for me, money is not my end all be all in life. My family is, and a work a shit pot of overtime because my job calls for it. My wages do not compare to that of a Union position. However I am not bothered by it at all. I put in a honest day’s work for the compensation I was already told I would receive. I do not bitch about my pay, I agreed to the pay before taking the job.

However all it takes is one turd with the seniority in a Union to make the rest look like asses. That trait is passed down to less seniority union members. So later when they get the seniority in that position what do you think happens?

I wouldn't call ALL Union members lazy or fat. Union or Non-Union some men will work hard no matter what. Maggots however will the ride on the backs of hard workers and do their best to undercut them and take credit for his work for their own gain without ever spilling a drop of sweat to do so.

But you must agree there is a problem with how some of the Unions are run. As I have said before, when unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become.

It’s very simple though, men by nature are greedy for money and power. Do you live your life by the almighty dollar? If you do, you live a very sad life.

Your miles may very...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know the difference between right to work states, and states that do not have that law?? In most states they do not even need a reason to fire you, they can just do it</div></div>

Yes I know the difference and loved it when I worked in Georgia. The jerk offs that wanted to leach around and collect a paycheck were quickly weeded out and fired. The ones who busted their asses shined! They were also rewarded for their work ethic. Crazy concept huh?

In case you missed it, I'm against unions.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We need a new post "Why I hate assholes who start posts like this one".</div></div>

Or another great post would be "why assholes shouldn't shit in someone else's thread when they have nothing to contribute either good or bad."

Just an option.

 

[hamr56]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

I can't speak for all unions, but the meeting I attended was amazing. 50 year olds acting like the were 18 and entitled. "Provoke me and I will strike" stickers what a bunch of dumb phukers. Wonder how many grievances would have been filled if management walked around with stickers that said "Talk back and I will fire you."? Teachers, Teamsters and GM bailouts three good examples that show exactly what they are about.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know the difference between right to work states, and states that do not have that law?? In most states they do not even need a reason to fire you, they can just do it</div></div>

Yes I know the difference and loved it when I worked in Georgia. The jerk offs that wanted to leach around and collect a paycheck were quickly weeded out and fired. The ones who busted their asses shined! They were also rewarded for their work ethic. Crazy concept huh?
</div></div>

So what about the flip side to that where you work super hard but your boss doesn't like you or he wants to give your job to his friend or relative? You have no recourse. It's not cut and dry.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Rob,

You find another job. Or go over his head to his superiors. Been there, done that.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

If he is the business owner there is no one higher. And finding another job might not be that easy.

The world is not black and white and neither is this issue. Unions have done and still do alot of good but people don't want to see it.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

The entire point of this is that where there is smoke there is fire. There is no black or white and there are a number of mitigating factors.

Are there many times management is to blame? Absolutely.
Are there great unions that take care of their members? Absolutely.

Is there corruption in most unions? Absolutely.
Is the negative union reputation warranted? I believe, as the article points out, they've earned it.

So you can take the good, take the bad, take the both and there you have the facts of life.

Whether you want to admit it or not labor is approximately 40%-60% of the total operating costs. When you factor how union influence can affect a company's bottom line, especially when there may or may not be foul play on the part of the unions, it makes a big difference in how successful a company can be.

When some laborer makes 2-3X more than a police officer, or a fireman, or a nurse, there's a problem. And that is the case all over the country.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So you can take the good, take the bad, take the both and there you have the facts of life.

</div></div>

Someone has been watching too much Nick at Night

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

All the sudden now, it seems others are starting to talk similar to what I'd posted about earlier.

A trend, maybe?

 

[Guest]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Tootie!

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

This is going to be one of those endless debates.

My statement is this. I do not care for unions, however I do not hold any grudge or ill will towards any individual union member or not. I have not met you, so I do not know the type of man you are on a day to day basis. I do my best not to stereotype people. (unless you hang your pants off your ass, and wear your hat backwards.)

 

[jasonk]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know the difference between right to work states, and states that do not have that law?? In most states they do not even need a reason to fire you, they can just do it</div></div>

Yes I know the difference and loved it when I worked in Georgia. The jerk offs that wanted to leach around and collect a paycheck were quickly weeded out and fired. The ones who busted their asses shined! They were also rewarded for their work ethic. Crazy concept huh?
</div></div>

So what about the flip side to that where you work super hard but your boss doesn't like you or he wants to give your job to his friend or relative? You have no recourse. It's not cut and dry.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If he is the business owner there is no one higher. And finding another job might not be that easy.

</div></div>

As the business owner that's his choice to not like you and not to employ you. However, if you're that good of an employee it's unlikely that you'd be replaced by a relative that would do the job poorly, that guy would not be a business owner very long.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

My basic beef is that there must always be resistance. Actions and equal and opposite reactions.

The childish and simplitic condemnation of "Management" while canonizing "Labor" and their sainted union representatives is a prime example. Add into that mix the monumentally corrupt and collusive practices of Big Media, now unequivocally proven to be manipulating the distribution of news (see the unfolding Journo-List scandal) giving rise to the absurd horseshit that workers= good and bosses = bad...

If the hacks that report the news weren't all largely unionized memebers of one political party, daily advocating in behalf of their fellow union members, perhaps the corrupt scumbags and pathetic productivity that characterize (accurately) modern unions would benefit from the resistance and scrutiny management gets from share holders, creditors and employees as well as the parasite do nothings in media.

As to the nonsense that "The Corporations" caused the melt down we are currently enduring, I guess one once again has to strenuously ignore the rampant greed of the house flipping swine who bought even the most overpriced, termite infested, shitholes full in the knowledge that some greater fool would buy it from them.

Similar to the assholes who bought tech stocks in the '90's knowing no more about the companies they invested in other than the price of their shares went up before so...

Perhaps if we were completely honest and stopped allowing certain "Hallowed" groups a platitudinous pass ( "they care about workers") while holding others in abject contempt ("all they care about is profits") we could find an objective measure upon which to call spades, spades.

As it sits now the enemy are the manipulators of news who are now plainly exposed to be colluding in the distribution of news; labor unrest is one of their tools.

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Nah, I have no use for unions..Don't hold it against anyone who is in a union, but it's just another level of bureaucracy that wastes money.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Rob1,
Who said life is fair... It is the owners right to hire and fire anyone he wants to. I will tell you this.. My son and daughters will get my companies, or at least money from them, just because they are my family.
Boone,
Right on with find a new job. I might add you if you do not like the situation your in you could also go start another company like your boss did, take the risk, handle the stress,but I would guess most people that work for unions would rather cry about their situation and how it is not fair. Then go out and try to better themselves.

Rob1,
I am not pointing any of this at you personally. ( I do not want to get band ) I am just stating my opinion.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

You believe what you want and I will believe what I want. Not going to ban you for it but just think you have a black and white outlook on unions and don't know very much about them.

Actually I'll make this my last post in this thread as it's obviously falling on deaf ears and closed minds. I'll let all you keep beating your chests and yelling how unions are ruining the country. Carry on.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)

If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do.
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Switchblade,
Have you ever owned your own business ?
I hate to disagree with you but, I was 19 years old and was kicked off the family payroll while I was in college. Yes, I grew up with a silver spoon. It was the most devastating thing that happened to me.. I went from driving a BMW, rent paid, all expences paid and an allowance that most people do not even make. To ZERO....... Yes my old man sent a wrecker to pick up my car, and cut all utilities off etc.... ( just because he had an affair on my mother with his secretary, and I did not agree with him.)
I then proceeded to put myself through college at TEXAS A&M w/o a single loan or grant. I was a white male....I worked 3 jobs at min. wage in a college town.
No, Union, NO GOV'T, Cared about if I had clothes,food,car,tools,or medical.
I HAVE NO TOLERANCE FOR PEOPLE THAT WANT SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. My dad did teach me a few note worthy rules. 1. You can not help someone that is not willing to help himself. 2. If you always do what you have always done, Then you will get what you have always got.
I will say this to anyone IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHERE YOUR AT, CHANGE IT YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN.....

 

[C.K]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

In a perfect world LOL,

"Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)"

I agree but the above is subjective to a individuals desire or wants, its not cut and dry as nothing is as of late.

Every thing has its good and bad on both sides of the debate. One of my best friends is a big pro union guy a super hard worker runs the work for the union company as his father and brother does for the same company. On another note my brother in law's father worked as a janitor(union) for a local (boat motor company), it made me sick to here him brag how he would sit on the shitter and read the paper and mags for half his shift.

On the other side I've seen company's(non union) shit on there workers for no other reason than they could.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Yes, but it was a solo endeavor. My point is that if you are the one doing the iring, you better be able to pay a man for his hard work. LAziness does not warrant jack or shit and there are jobs that demand the teenage employee who just needs a car and a little fun(McDonald's, Sonics, Grovery bagger, etc). My point is directed toward those who pay shit wages for work that should be paid a fair livable wage. If it's your business and you cannot afford to pay a man who works damn hard a fair wage then you shouldn't be in business where you need workers. If you are the type that hires illegal aliens, then I hope you suffer the consequences ten fold.
Entitlements are as I stated above and a fair wage to a man should cover that. A little to live on, a little to save, and a little to help the family when someone needs a doc. Anything less is damned uncivilized and a black mark on what it is to BE American. We do not work for entitlements, we work for fair wages that allow us to live the American Dream, or we own our own business to get there.
I will not be swayed by an emotional appeal and still stand by what I say

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

A job is paid by what someone is willing to take.
ie.... a person mowing my lawn wil get paid ( x )
A person welding steel will get paid ( y )
a person welding aluminum will get paid ( w )
A doctor will get paid ( z )
If you want to get paid enough to cover the expenses you are talking about. I suggest you read books and educate yourself so you are more marketable and can make more money....
Also, every person is on a solo endeavor...... Business set the job pay at what people will work at.
I know I am beating my head against a post, I am just trying to help the guys that will benefit. If you work hard, and are on time, and try to improve knowledge and skills, There is not a company out there that will not give you raises and take care of you. GOOD EMPLOYEES ARE HARD TO FIND.
The old School are gone.....

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Switch,

When Peter Kiewitt was diggin the subway in DC, they were offering 20/hr to run a shovel, and that was a while back. they couldn't find a shovel, and as this was a govt contract, were susceptible to a fine for being late on the finish. they lost a lot of money on that one. Who stood in the way? guess. When unions exist to extort more money than is deserved, they are in the way of the american dream.