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Another Reason I Hate Unions
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
The idea that all union members of overcompensated for what they do is ridiculous. I make a livable wage for what I do, no more no less. I could really care less about the whole union/non-union squabble, those who are dead set against unions tend to not have any real experience with them.........those who are all for them tend to be all for the wrong reasons. Me? I was hired to do a job which happens to be covered under a union contract. I'm going to show up when I'm supposed to, work hard, work smart, get the work done and go home. That's not unique to union nor non-union, but that's how 95% of the guys I work with roll, management and contract employees alike. Life is hard on the dead weight.......which is one of the qualities of a properly functioning labor union, policing its own ranks.
The idea that all union members of overcompensated for what they do is ridiculous. I make a livable wage for what I do, no more no less. I could really care less about the whole union/non-union squabble, those who are dead set against unions tend to not have any real experience with them.........those who are all for them tend to be all for the wrong reasons. Me? I was hired to do a job which happens to be covered under a union contract. I'm going to show up when I'm supposed to, work hard, work smart, get the work done and go home. That's not unique to union nor non-union, but that's how 95% of the guys I work with roll, management and contract employees alike. Life is hard on the dead weight.......which is one of the qualities of a properly functioning labor union, policing its own ranks.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do.
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work</div></div> Agreed!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do.
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work</div></div> Agreed!
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
The biggest union (& Problem) down here is the "Education Association"...it is a union. Talk about a political machine !! Just try and get a sorry teacher removed ...they get pulled from class sent to a "Padded room" AND still get paid. Happens all the time especially up in the NE. Even more fun is trying to teach WITHOUT joining the "Assoc". Some of those "teachers" are pulling down 100K for reading papers, doing other business, playing on PC but they aren't doing any teaching !!
The biggest union (& Problem) down here is the "Education Association"...it is a union. Talk about a political machine !! Just try and get a sorry teacher removed ...they get pulled from class sent to a "Padded room" AND still get paid. Happens all the time especially up in the NE. Even more fun is trying to teach WITHOUT joining the "Assoc". Some of those "teachers" are pulling down 100K for reading papers, doing other business, playing on PC but they aren't doing any teaching !!
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
Bryan27,
That is the problem, there is no such thing as a properly running UNION.
There is no way a union is going to get a union member fired. I could sit here and type from now until the end of the world with case after case of Union member abuse.
As well as I am sure many other's could tell story after story about it.
Bryan27,
That is the problem, there is no such thing as a properly running UNION.
There is no way a union is going to get a union member fired. I could sit here and type from now until the end of the world with case after case of Union member abuse.
As well as I am sure many other's could tell story after story about it.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do.
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">WELL FUCKIN PUT SWITCH!!!</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
Home
Food
Clothing
Vehicle
Tools
Medical, etc
Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do.
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">WELL FUCKIN PUT SWITCH!!!</span>
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
Who decides what a man's work or job is worth?? The free market or the unions when there in control?? This is not the 50's anymore, until the goverment gets some balls and tells china to fuck off we cannot compete and business cannot keep paying bullshit inflated wages + pensions. You can't have it both ways.
Who decides what a man's work or job is worth?? The free market or the unions when there in control?? This is not the 50's anymore, until the goverment gets some balls and tells china to fuck off we cannot compete and business cannot keep paying bullshit inflated wages + pensions. You can't have it both ways.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
When some laborer makes 2-3X more than a police officer, or a fireman, or a nurse, there's a problem. And that is the case all over the country. [/quote]
Out here in the wild wild west of Las Vegas the Firemen,LEO's, and Nurse's are all covered by Union collective bargaining agreement.
"When some laborer makes 2-3X more?" Can you please post some facts that will support this claim? And please keep it fair using the same geographical area. Vegas Laborer's wage to a Vegas LEO's wage. This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull.
When some laborer makes 2-3X more than a police officer, or a fireman, or a nurse, there's a problem. And that is the case all over the country. [/quote]
Out here in the wild wild west of Las Vegas the Firemen,LEO's, and Nurse's are all covered by Union collective bargaining agreement.
"When some laborer makes 2-3X more?" Can you please post some facts that will support this claim? And please keep it fair using the same geographical area. Vegas Laborer's wage to a Vegas LEO's wage. This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. </div></div>
Really switch? We're going to compare unions in 2010 and their necessity to unions at the turn of the 20th century? That's comparable in your eyes? There is a huge difference in the working conditions and benefits between the two. There is no way in 2010 you can take any union member and tell me they are not getting well beyond a "subsistance" wage.
Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Home</span>
Home can mean a lot of things. What size of home? What location? Why can't they rent? There's a big difference between a home that is reasonable for a family vs. what someone may desire or think they're "entitled" to. Not everyone is automatically entitled to own a home. A family of three does not "need" a 5000sq/ft home to be comfortable.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Food</span>
Groceries enough to feed a family with health, nutritious food or "food" as in eating out at restaurants all the time. Yes, food is expensive, but you sacrifice in other areas.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Clothing</span>
Work clothing? Nice, clean, respectable clothing or is your wife out at the mall picking up designer labels and over priced accessories?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Vehicle</span>
This is a big one. How many vehicles? New, used? One for you and one for your wife large enough for you and your family. The only criterion that vehicles need to meet are safe and reliable. One does not "need" a diesel 4x4 dually to tow their ski boat. A truck for work is one thing but a Hummer to show off to your friends is not.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Tools</span>
Only directly related to his job performance.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Medical, etc</span>
You have the right to fair treatment and an employer should pay for any issues directly relating to work. Expecting an employer to pay for your medical care is part of the reason we're battling this socialized medicine issue right now.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)</span>
This is absolute bullshit. You expect that an employer should pay for you for the rest of your life? Are you serious? It's called "save your money". If you don't save your money and PLAN for your retirement you deserve what you get. It's not the employers responsibility to continue to pay you when you are no longer producing. This alone is a huge factor with the auto industry bailouts. I am extremely surprised you would take such a socialist view.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.</div></div>
You know what? Tough shit. If you don't like your job working your fingers to the bone and "barely getting by" then go find another job. Why is it that as consumers we let the free market dictate what we will spend for a product but as a worker we feel we can dictate what we're paid? It's called greed. Chances are if you're working your fingers to the bone for a mediocre wage it's because the company can hire anyone to do your job. Your skill set may come from experience and you may bring something to the table, but overall your job description is not that complicated. And if you are extremely skilled and experienced, someone is going to compensate you fairly for that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.</div></div>
Bullshit. This is one of the exact problems we see with some/most unions. Workers become entitled and feel that they do not have to work their ass off to get a better wage. The union will dictate how hard they will work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do. </div></div>
You're right about one thing, they HAD their place. In very rare cases they still do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
</div></div>
Nope, your dad was a smart man. He had a job that needed to be done and he had a wage that he was willing to pay. The worker that WANTED to work took the job and did it. I would also be willing to bet those "wet backs" (your words) did a hell of a job too didn't they?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. </div></div>
Show me a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I'll show you a man who is too lazy to go look for another job. If there are no other jobs available then you suck it up and either improve yourself or learn to live with what you have. This economy has anybody doing anything to get by. We did it in the military. You talk as if there are truck drivers and warehousemen and auto workers running around making minimum wage. Get real. Again, the Hyundai plant here in Alabama pays their workers a fair wage and you know what? The workers are GLAD for the job and are happy. They're not union. What's the secret?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.</div></div>
I have to respect your loyalty.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work</div></div>
What's a solid wage?
What's the average hourly wage of a Teamster? a UAW worker?
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions were the only way that the 'Worker' could get a fair livable wage when they started. Until then, Worker Man was living on nothing more than subsistance wages which as any of you who work know are bullshit wages. </div></div>
Really switch? We're going to compare unions in 2010 and their necessity to unions at the turn of the 20th century? That's comparable in your eyes? There is a huge difference in the working conditions and benefits between the two. There is no way in 2010 you can take any union member and tell me they are not getting well beyond a "subsistance" wage.
Every Man should be able to work for a wage that provides the following:
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Home</span>
Home can mean a lot of things. What size of home? What location? Why can't they rent? There's a big difference between a home that is reasonable for a family vs. what someone may desire or think they're "entitled" to. Not everyone is automatically entitled to own a home. A family of three does not "need" a 5000sq/ft home to be comfortable.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Food</span>
Groceries enough to feed a family with health, nutritious food or "food" as in eating out at restaurants all the time. Yes, food is expensive, but you sacrifice in other areas.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Clothing</span>
Work clothing? Nice, clean, respectable clothing or is your wife out at the mall picking up designer labels and over priced accessories?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Vehicle</span>
This is a big one. How many vehicles? New, used? One for you and one for your wife large enough for you and your family. The only criterion that vehicles need to meet are safe and reliable. One does not "need" a diesel 4x4 dually to tow their ski boat. A truck for work is one thing but a Hummer to show off to your friends is not.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Tools</span>
Only directly related to his job performance.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Medical, etc</span>
You have the right to fair treatment and an employer should pay for any issues directly relating to work. Expecting an employer to pay for your medical care is part of the reason we're battling this socialized medicine issue right now.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Something to live on after 'He' cannot work(we call this retirement)</span>
This is absolute bullshit. You expect that an employer should pay for you for the rest of your life? Are you serious? It's called "save your money". If you don't save your money and PLAN for your retirement you deserve what you get. It's not the employers responsibility to continue to pay you when you are no longer producing. This alone is a huge factor with the auto industry bailouts. I am extremely surprised you would take such a socialist view.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you own a business, and have people working for you and do not provide a wage that covers all of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. A Man works his fingers to the bone knowing he has a fair wage. He becomes irritated, angry, billgerent if his wage only supports 'barely getting by'.</div></div>
You know what? Tough shit. If you don't like your job working your fingers to the bone and "barely getting by" then go find another job. Why is it that as consumers we let the free market dictate what we will spend for a product but as a worker we feel we can dictate what we're paid? It's called greed. Chances are if you're working your fingers to the bone for a mediocre wage it's because the company can hire anyone to do your job. Your skill set may come from experience and you may bring something to the table, but overall your job description is not that complicated. And if you are extremely skilled and experienced, someone is going to compensate you fairly for that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Look at it this way:
How would YOU like living on the wage YOU provide as a business owner? If you do not like what you see, look hard at the way you are doing business. You will find more profit by paying a better living wage to your worker because he will work harder for you.</div></div>
Bullshit. This is one of the exact problems we see with some/most unions. Workers become entitled and feel that they do not have to work their ass off to get a better wage. The union will dictate how hard they will work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Unions had their place. In some cases they still do. </div></div>
You're right about one thing, they HAD their place. In very rare cases they still do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I grew up in a Union House and th elargest disappointment I ever had was knowing my Pop hired a pick up load of fucking illegal alien wet backs to clean out his yard when he and I both knew he could afford to pay a few Apprentices their rightful wage form the union hall. That is still a thorn between us that I always give him shit about because as a Union President with a building named after him for his hard work organizing the entire North Coast, he knew better.
</div></div>
Nope, your dad was a smart man. He had a job that needed to be done and he had a wage that he was willing to pay. The worker that WANTED to work took the job and did it. I would also be willing to bet those "wet backs" (your words) did a hell of a job too didn't they?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Find a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I will show you a man who is running a business like an asshole. </div></div>
Show me a disgruntled worker who isn't getting paid for his hard work and I'll show you a man who is too lazy to go look for another job. If there are no other jobs available then you suck it up and either improve yourself or learn to live with what you have. This economy has anybody doing anything to get by. We did it in the military. You talk as if there are truck drivers and warehousemen and auto workers running around making minimum wage. Get real. Again, the Hyundai plant here in Alabama pays their workers a fair wage and you know what? The workers are GLAD for the job and are happy. They're not union. What's the secret?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As I said, unions have their place and time. That, I will stand by until it has reached a point of being unreasonable, then I will still stand by it.</div></div>
I have to respect your loyalty.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom Line: A Man deserves a solid wage for hard work</div></div>
What's a solid wage?
What's the average hourly wage of a Teamster? a UAW worker?
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Out here in the wild wild west of Las Vegas the Firemen,LEO's, and Nurse's are all covered by Union collective bargaining agreement.</div></div>
If they are members of the union, then they're part of the problem. You cannot compare a union worker to a union worker. You can see a comparison in my previous post. Take the cities like Atlanta where pilots live. Or take LA, NY, Miami or wherever longshoreman live.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"When some laborer makes 2-3X more?" Can you please post some facts that will support this claim? And please keep it fair using the same geographical area. Vegas Laborer's wage to a Vegas LEO's wage. This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull. </div></div>
Again, you can't compare a union job to a union job. If all of the service personnel and laborers are part of a union then they are all part of the same issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull. </div></div>
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too. But when you ask me why I don't drive a car made by a UAW, I'll tell you it's a protest against the union.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Out here in the wild wild west of Las Vegas the Firemen,LEO's, and Nurse's are all covered by Union collective bargaining agreement.</div></div>
If they are members of the union, then they're part of the problem. You cannot compare a union worker to a union worker. You can see a comparison in my previous post. Take the cities like Atlanta where pilots live. Or take LA, NY, Miami or wherever longshoreman live.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"When some laborer makes 2-3X more?" Can you please post some facts that will support this claim? And please keep it fair using the same geographical area. Vegas Laborer's wage to a Vegas LEO's wage. This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull. </div></div>
Again, you can't compare a union job to a union job. If all of the service personnel and laborers are part of a union then they are all part of the same issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread is full of misrepresentation of facts and full of people with embitterment towards collective bargaining agreement laborer,some points justified,some just pure bull. </div></div>
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too. But when you ask me why I don't drive a car made by a UAW, I'll tell you it's a protest against the union.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
</div></div>
Not true, and that statement is just trying to frame this debate into an Us vs Them format. Far more people in America are economically similar to union members than are not. The Unions vs Big Business situation is as much about economic class as it is about collective bargaining, and it always has been. BTW, I have no union affiliation whatsoever. I just hate seeing the little guy get shit on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
</div></div>
Not true, and that statement is just trying to frame this debate into an Us vs Them format. Far more people in America are economically similar to union members than are not. The Unions vs Big Business situation is as much about economic class as it is about collective bargaining, and it always has been. BTW, I have no union affiliation whatsoever. I just hate seeing the little guy get shit on.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
</div></div>
Not true, and that statement is just trying to frame this debate into an Us vs Them format. Far more people in America are economically similar to union members than are not. The Unions vs Big Business situation is as much about economic class as it is about collective bargaining, and it always has been. BTW, I have no union affiliation whatsoever. I just hate seeing the little guy get shit on. </div></div>
ZL
I completely disagree with you with the exception of I hate seeing the little guy get shit on too. However, the problem I have is I'm not really seeing the little guy get shit on and I live in a right to work state.
It's not a matter of us vs. them. It's a matter of the perception of what is fair and right. It's about entitlement. In fact, how is your statement "it's more about economic class as it is about collective bargaining" any different in projecting a "us vs them" mentality?
Every team member has a value to the team however, like it or not, the E-1 scrubbing the head on a frigate does not have as much value, skill set and responsibility as the CO of the aircraft carrier.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The dividing line in this post is union affiliation. Most everyone who is associated with a unions supports what they stand for and everyone who is not is against them. Is the defensiveness on the part of the union members. It's no different than if I said Remington actions are crap vs. a custom action. Everyone with a Remington action would get defensive and state how their rifle is just as accurate and everyone with a custom action would state why their custom action is that much better.
</div></div>
Not true, and that statement is just trying to frame this debate into an Us vs Them format. Far more people in America are economically similar to union members than are not. The Unions vs Big Business situation is as much about economic class as it is about collective bargaining, and it always has been. BTW, I have no union affiliation whatsoever. I just hate seeing the little guy get shit on. </div></div>
ZL
I completely disagree with you with the exception of I hate seeing the little guy get shit on too. However, the problem I have is I'm not really seeing the little guy get shit on and I live in a right to work state.
It's not a matter of us vs. them. It's a matter of the perception of what is fair and right. It's about entitlement. In fact, how is your statement "it's more about economic class as it is about collective bargaining" any different in projecting a "us vs them" mentality?
Every team member has a value to the team however, like it or not, the E-1 scrubbing the head on a frigate does not have as much value, skill set and responsibility as the CO of the aircraft carrier.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan27,
That is the problem, there is no such thing as a properly running UNION.
There is no way a union is going to get a union member fired. I could sit here and type from now until the end of the world with case after case of Union member abuse.
As well as I am sure many other's could tell story after story about it. </div></div>
I disagree, a properly run/healthy union is in no way confused with being a perfect union. THAT doesn't exist. While I disagree with the union that I belong to with their stances on several things and the fact that they stick their nose where it doesn't belong, ie politics, I think it is a healthy and well functioning union. RR's may be unique in that the union really offers no employee protection from getting fired, basically everything is spelled out that if you do x or y you will be "fired" for x number of days. You do something serious enough it isn't going to be up to the RR if you CAN come back to work, it will be up to the rail labor board. If railroaders got permanently fired for every little fuck up like it used to be, railroads wouldn't have a man on the roster with more than 3 years experience. Instead you have guys with 30 years that have learned from their mistake. My ex boss tried to fire me at one time, not because of anything I did wrong, but because he saw me as a threat to his own job....I didn't need nor use nor notify the union for help, even though it was all bullshit.
One thing that I'd like to point out is that all these negative attributes that are being brought up as being "union" are not as rampant as is made to seem, nor unique to unions. For every example of union abuse I can find an example of management abuse. For every example of a union member who takes an hour long shit after lunch to read his favorite magazine, I can find you a non-union employee who takes an hour and a half lunch and then sits at his desk chatting on the hide until quitting time. For every example of union members being paid $100k/year for sitting on their ass, I can come up with a CEO who is being paid $15m/year to run a company into the ground and vote himself a $10M bonus for doing so. For every yin there is a yang.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan27,
That is the problem, there is no such thing as a properly running UNION.
There is no way a union is going to get a union member fired. I could sit here and type from now until the end of the world with case after case of Union member abuse.
As well as I am sure many other's could tell story after story about it. </div></div>
I disagree, a properly run/healthy union is in no way confused with being a perfect union. THAT doesn't exist. While I disagree with the union that I belong to with their stances on several things and the fact that they stick their nose where it doesn't belong, ie politics, I think it is a healthy and well functioning union. RR's may be unique in that the union really offers no employee protection from getting fired, basically everything is spelled out that if you do x or y you will be "fired" for x number of days. You do something serious enough it isn't going to be up to the RR if you CAN come back to work, it will be up to the rail labor board. If railroaders got permanently fired for every little fuck up like it used to be, railroads wouldn't have a man on the roster with more than 3 years experience. Instead you have guys with 30 years that have learned from their mistake. My ex boss tried to fire me at one time, not because of anything I did wrong, but because he saw me as a threat to his own job....I didn't need nor use nor notify the union for help, even though it was all bullshit.
One thing that I'd like to point out is that all these negative attributes that are being brought up as being "union" are not as rampant as is made to seem, nor unique to unions. For every example of union abuse I can find an example of management abuse. For every example of a union member who takes an hour long shit after lunch to read his favorite magazine, I can find you a non-union employee who takes an hour and a half lunch and then sits at his desk chatting on the hide until quitting time. For every example of union members being paid $100k/year for sitting on their ass, I can come up with a CEO who is being paid $15m/year to run a company into the ground and vote himself a $10M bonus for doing so. For every yin there is a yang.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
The "economic class" comment was directed toward your claim that if you're in a union, you support unions, and if you're not, you don't. I take issue with that. Many lower and middle income Americans support unions because they can empathize more with the workers situation, just like many affluent Americans empathize with business owners despite not owning a business. Your statement sounding like you were singling out union members as the outliers when demographically, the business owners are.
I'm not saying a second shift welder should get the same pay as the CEO, or even the foreman. What I am saying is that he should have safe working conditions, a reasonable living wage, and health care benefits.
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.
The "economic class" comment was directed toward your claim that if you're in a union, you support unions, and if you're not, you don't. I take issue with that. Many lower and middle income Americans support unions because they can empathize more with the workers situation, just like many affluent Americans empathize with business owners despite not owning a business. Your statement sounding like you were singling out union members as the outliers when demographically, the business owners are.
I'm not saying a second shift welder should get the same pay as the CEO, or even the foreman. What I am saying is that he should have safe working conditions, a reasonable living wage, and health care benefits.
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<span style="font-weight: bold">Here are some ideas;</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Saturdays as a day off- Brought to you by Unions. </span>
So many American's forget what the Unions Bring THEM, either Union, or NON-Union.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Decent Wages!</span> FOR EXAMPLE: If you are a non-Union construction worker, and LOVE to work prevailing wage, THANK A UNION, those Decent Wages were brought to you by a UNION.
Lets get to the "goods", I'm not going to get into the politics of Unions, I don't know enough, some shit gets me pissed, but hell the Government of these UNITED (get it?) States doesn't always make me happy either.
What I will say is this---EDUCATION
I have not met (because it doesn't exist) a non-Union worker that has the training IN AS SHORT OF TIME as a Union Worker. Training is where the Union beats the hell out of non-Union in the Trades.
For Example? Myself, I have more Licenses, more training, more updates than any non-Union employee in my line of work. I'm sorry if this affends you. My updates are not only on time, they are usualy early. This is only because my Union Supports ME.
Look guys, here is the meat and potatoes of the deal. In EVERY line of work out there, there are those that take advantage of the training, or get to it themselves. Then there are others that just "put in thier time".
If we are all Honest with ourselves, we know what type we are. Don't nail everyone to a cross for a few lazy slobs.
And remember this, if you are a Licensed tradesman, you can join-up with a Union, and they can't turn you away<span style="font-weight: bold">....THESE ARE "KNOW-NOTHINGS" I HAVE TO DEAL WITH ON ALMOST A DAILY BASIS. SO DON'T BLAME THIER TRAINING ON THE LIKES OF ME. </span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Here are some ideas;</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Saturdays as a day off- Brought to you by Unions. </span>
So many American's forget what the Unions Bring THEM, either Union, or NON-Union.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Decent Wages!</span> FOR EXAMPLE: If you are a non-Union construction worker, and LOVE to work prevailing wage, THANK A UNION, those Decent Wages were brought to you by a UNION.
Lets get to the "goods", I'm not going to get into the politics of Unions, I don't know enough, some shit gets me pissed, but hell the Government of these UNITED (get it?) States doesn't always make me happy either.
What I will say is this---EDUCATION
I have not met (because it doesn't exist) a non-Union worker that has the training IN AS SHORT OF TIME as a Union Worker. Training is where the Union beats the hell out of non-Union in the Trades.
For Example? Myself, I have more Licenses, more training, more updates than any non-Union employee in my line of work. I'm sorry if this affends you. My updates are not only on time, they are usualy early. This is only because my Union Supports ME.
Look guys, here is the meat and potatoes of the deal. In EVERY line of work out there, there are those that take advantage of the training, or get to it themselves. Then there are others that just "put in thier time".
If we are all Honest with ourselves, we know what type we are. Don't nail everyone to a cross for a few lazy slobs.
And remember this, if you are a Licensed tradesman, you can join-up with a Union, and they can't turn you away<span style="font-weight: bold">....THESE ARE "KNOW-NOTHINGS" I HAVE TO DEAL WITH ON ALMOST A DAILY BASIS. SO DON'T BLAME THIER TRAINING ON THE LIKES OF ME. </span>
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
Having been a teamster shop steward for 13 years, all I can say is in Washington state all the garbage, and construction is owned by the mob. Sorry to say so are the teamsters. I always had a laugh, we would negotiate a contract till the owner called the international and said hey this is as high as I go and then they called us and said take it. Also when any organization becomes so big and powerful that it's existence is more important than the needs of the workers, the union, it is out of control. That said, without the right to collective bargaining, IE unions we would all still be working for peanuts. I don't say there are not problems in the way unions and employers interact but since the NLRB has been gutted the only unions with any power are the government ones sad but true. I got out of the military in 1973, went to tech school got a job as a diesel mech in Alaska in 1975 for $13.25 an Hour. Went to work for Boeing as a Airplane Mech in 1996 for $11.50 an hour, both were union jobs, so where are all these out of control union wages? Just my personal experience.
Having been a teamster shop steward for 13 years, all I can say is in Washington state all the garbage, and construction is owned by the mob. Sorry to say so are the teamsters. I always had a laugh, we would negotiate a contract till the owner called the international and said hey this is as high as I go and then they called us and said take it. Also when any organization becomes so big and powerful that it's existence is more important than the needs of the workers, the union, it is out of control. That said, without the right to collective bargaining, IE unions we would all still be working for peanuts. I don't say there are not problems in the way unions and employers interact but since the NLRB has been gutted the only unions with any power are the government ones sad but true. I got out of the military in 1973, went to tech school got a job as a diesel mech in Alaska in 1975 for $13.25 an Hour. Went to work for Boeing as a Airplane Mech in 1996 for $11.50 an hour, both were union jobs, so where are all these out of control union wages? Just my personal experience.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "economic class" comment was directed toward your claim that if you're in a union, you support unions, and if you're not, you don't. I take issue with that. </div></div>
I believe you have taken me out of context. What I said was "The dividing line <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">in this post</span></span>". I wasn't speaking of the America across the board. The point I was making is if you look at almost every pro union post in this thread, the posters are members of, or affiliated with, a union. Those posters who are against the unions have little or no affiliation. I think this is an important distinction.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I am saying is that he should have safe working conditions, a reasonable living wage, and health care benefits.</div></div>
The difference is who gets to decide what is a "reasonable living wage" and "health care benefits"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.</div></div>
He sure does. But look what else he gets. He also makes $17,000 a year <2 years in, plus he works 24/7, not 40 hours a week with weekends off. The E-1 gets charge for leave on the weekends as well. So is that a fair wage? The health and dental care in the military is suspect at best. Also, some other benefits such as extra skill training require the worker to put forth an effort, they're not just given to you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "economic class" comment was directed toward your claim that if you're in a union, you support unions, and if you're not, you don't. I take issue with that. </div></div>
I believe you have taken me out of context. What I said was "The dividing line <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">in this post</span></span>". I wasn't speaking of the America across the board. The point I was making is if you look at almost every pro union post in this thread, the posters are members of, or affiliated with, a union. Those posters who are against the unions have little or no affiliation. I think this is an important distinction.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I am saying is that he should have safe working conditions, a reasonable living wage, and health care benefits.</div></div>
The difference is who gets to decide what is a "reasonable living wage" and "health care benefits"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.</div></div>
He sure does. But look what else he gets. He also makes $17,000 a year <2 years in, plus he works 24/7, not 40 hours a week with weekends off. The E-1 gets charge for leave on the weekends as well. So is that a fair wage? The health and dental care in the military is suspect at best. Also, some other benefits such as extra skill training require the worker to put forth an effort, they're not just given to you.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tex1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body">both were union jobs, so where are all these out of control union wages?</div></div>
What's the average hourly wage of a Teamster? a UAW worker?
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
BTW, these numbers were not just pulled out of my ass. A quick Google-fu will show.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tex1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body">both were union jobs, so where are all these out of control union wages?</div></div>
What's the average hourly wage of a Teamster? a UAW worker?
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
BTW, these numbers were not just pulled out of my ass. A quick Google-fu will show.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.</div></div>
He sure does. But look what else he gets. He also makes $17,000 a year <2 years in, plus he works 24/7, not 40 hours a week with weekends off. The E-1 gets charge for leave on the weekends as well. So is that a fair wage? The health and dental care in the military is suspect at best. Also, some other benefits such as extra skill training require the worker to put forth an effort, they're not just given to you. </div></div>
Really? You can quote base pay all you want, but we both know the compensation packages likely double that figure. My total compensation package as an NCO is around $48k/year. Not bad at all.
I've never seen an E1 work 24/7, and though his NCO can call him back in at any time, that happens rarely any unit I've been in. And even though it's a 0630-1700 job, it's not straight work like you're on an assembly line. Let's be serious... there's ample bullshit time (work somehow appears at 1530 every day though). In the Army you don't get charged for leave unless you travel outside of 350 miles on a 4 day weekend, or you're flying on a plane (at least in my command).
The health care and dental care is pretty solid, considering it's free and constantly available. You offer this kind of health care to everyday blue collar workers and see how grateful they'd be for that kind of coverage for them and their families. Try it... there will be a line a mile long. Why has the military had no problem meeting their recruitment goals since the economic downturn? Because it's better in the military than it is in the civilian world if you're fit, patriotic, and have a clean record. While there are shortcomings within the military system, the benefits package is extensive and comprehensive. Frankly, I've never seen so many break-in-service guys and dudes over 30 joining up. All of the ones I talked to admitted that the benefits package was a huge reason. These dudes are all mostly NCOs now, and quality personnel to boot. Companies should take note from the military on how to take care of their employees.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You shouldn't have brought the militay example in, because if you want to talk about entitlements, we military folk are living it up. The E1 who scrubs the head gets a stable wage, raises every year, BAH for his family, health and dental care, free legal advice, access to IG, a career path, extra skill training, bonuses for loyalty, ample opportunities for promotion, and free education. If companies treated their employees the way the military treats us, there would be little need for unions. Just my 2 cents.</div></div>
He sure does. But look what else he gets. He also makes $17,000 a year <2 years in, plus he works 24/7, not 40 hours a week with weekends off. The E-1 gets charge for leave on the weekends as well. So is that a fair wage? The health and dental care in the military is suspect at best. Also, some other benefits such as extra skill training require the worker to put forth an effort, they're not just given to you. </div></div>
Really? You can quote base pay all you want, but we both know the compensation packages likely double that figure. My total compensation package as an NCO is around $48k/year. Not bad at all.
I've never seen an E1 work 24/7, and though his NCO can call him back in at any time, that happens rarely any unit I've been in. And even though it's a 0630-1700 job, it's not straight work like you're on an assembly line. Let's be serious... there's ample bullshit time (work somehow appears at 1530 every day though). In the Army you don't get charged for leave unless you travel outside of 350 miles on a 4 day weekend, or you're flying on a plane (at least in my command).
The health care and dental care is pretty solid, considering it's free and constantly available. You offer this kind of health care to everyday blue collar workers and see how grateful they'd be for that kind of coverage for them and their families. Try it... there will be a line a mile long. Why has the military had no problem meeting their recruitment goals since the economic downturn? Because it's better in the military than it is in the civilian world if you're fit, patriotic, and have a clean record. While there are shortcomings within the military system, the benefits package is extensive and comprehensive. Frankly, I've never seen so many break-in-service guys and dudes over 30 joining up. All of the ones I talked to admitted that the benefits package was a huge reason. These dudes are all mostly NCOs now, and quality personnel to boot. Companies should take note from the military on how to take care of their employees.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
BTW, these numbers were not just pulled out of my ass. A quick Google-fu will show.
</div></div>
There are a lot of pilots around my neck of the woods. A good friend of the family is a Fedex pilot who probably makes in the neighborhood of your figures. Why does he "need" union protection? He doesn't, just like me I don't "need" the union for anything. The pilots chose to have a union to rally for better working conditions. Without the unions everything turns into the buddy system where whoever kisses the most ass gets the better jobs and more pay, being non union doesn't necessarily make things merit based. How much do you think the Captain of an Airbus is worth? Do you want the cheapest paid, most over worked Airbus Captain at the wheel while your butt is in the passenger compartment coming in for a landing in a snow storm? Do you want an Engineer who is on his 8th trip of the week, who had been called out on his rest each time running a train full of propane, chlorinated gas and other dangerous chemicals operating a train through your back yard? How much are these peoples skills worth? How about the importance of their working conditions? The unions are the ones who brought about the changes in working conditions to make it safer for the employees and the communities they work in, either through negotiations or pressing the government for stricter regulation. Up until recently, the railroad could put you on a train and you could work for 12 hours, then have you tie your train down and sit there on it for as long as they wanted to leave you there. Then, call you back to work 6 1/2 hours for an 8 hour show up to do it again and keep on doing this for as long as they wanted. That's 6.5 hours to get home/to the motel, eat, sleep, wake up, take a shower, eat again and be ready to head back to the yard. The unions and the government had to step in due to so many people getting killed due to being "not there" at work from exhaustion. This is withing the last year and a half, not 1945.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The high end of commercial pilots with bonus and profit sharing is $180,000. Why does someone who makes $180,000 need to be in a union? What possible protection do they need?
Longshoreman. The average hourly wage is between $30.58 - $42.78 an hour. Without any bonus or overtime that's roughly
$63,606.40 to $88,982.40 a year. Again, that is without any overtime or bonuses and we all know it is a cold day in hell when a longshoreman doesn't see any overtime.
So those wages are WELL ABOVE a "subsistance" wage. I don't see police, or firefighters, or nurses or teachers making that kind of coin.
BTW, these numbers were not just pulled out of my ass. A quick Google-fu will show.
</div></div>
There are a lot of pilots around my neck of the woods. A good friend of the family is a Fedex pilot who probably makes in the neighborhood of your figures. Why does he "need" union protection? He doesn't, just like me I don't "need" the union for anything. The pilots chose to have a union to rally for better working conditions. Without the unions everything turns into the buddy system where whoever kisses the most ass gets the better jobs and more pay, being non union doesn't necessarily make things merit based. How much do you think the Captain of an Airbus is worth? Do you want the cheapest paid, most over worked Airbus Captain at the wheel while your butt is in the passenger compartment coming in for a landing in a snow storm? Do you want an Engineer who is on his 8th trip of the week, who had been called out on his rest each time running a train full of propane, chlorinated gas and other dangerous chemicals operating a train through your back yard? How much are these peoples skills worth? How about the importance of their working conditions? The unions are the ones who brought about the changes in working conditions to make it safer for the employees and the communities they work in, either through negotiations or pressing the government for stricter regulation. Up until recently, the railroad could put you on a train and you could work for 12 hours, then have you tie your train down and sit there on it for as long as they wanted to leave you there. Then, call you back to work 6 1/2 hours for an 8 hour show up to do it again and keep on doing this for as long as they wanted. That's 6.5 hours to get home/to the motel, eat, sleep, wake up, take a shower, eat again and be ready to head back to the yard. The unions and the government had to step in due to so many people getting killed due to being "not there" at work from exhaustion. This is withing the last year and a half, not 1945.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
You don't know any teachers making that kind of coin? Come on...I know personally a retired couple who were elementary teachers and lived quite well when working with three months off per year and who now take in $8,000.00 pension per month have full medical,dental and vision.
A fireman cant make as much as a Longshoreman,,,really?
http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-regional/13066792-1.html
Live Better Work Union.
You don't know any teachers making that kind of coin? Come on...I know personally a retired couple who were elementary teachers and lived quite well when working with three months off per year and who now take in $8,000.00 pension per month have full medical,dental and vision.
A fireman cant make as much as a Longshoreman,,,really?
http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-regional/13066792-1.html
Live Better Work Union.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Switchblade said:
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Really? You can quote base pay all you want, but we both know the compensation packages likely double that figure. My total compensation package as an NCO is around $48k/year. Not bad at all. </div></div>
Maybe for an NCO it will double, but no way in hell for an E-1. When I first went in as an E-3 I wasn't making 34K and I had Flight pay, hazardous duty pay, BHA, etc. and didn't come close to 34K.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've never seen an E1 work 24/7, and though his NCO can call him back in at any time, that happens rarely any unit I've been in.</div></div>
It happens ALL THE TIME in the service called the Navy. You will work a 12 hours shift, stand watch for 12 hours, and back on your shift. It happens at least once a week and maybe more depending on your billet. Even as Aircrew, which according to NATOPS (Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization) all aircrew are required 8-12 hours rest prior to any flight ops. You know how many times that was broken for "needs of the Navy?"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And even though it's a 0630-1700 job, it's not straight work like you're on an assembly line. </div></div>
Tell that to an aircraft mechanic that has to turn a bird around. They'll laugh at you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the Army you don't get charged for leave unless you travel outside of 350 miles on a 4 day weekend, or you're flying on a plane (at least in my command). </div></div>
Again, in the Navy you do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The health care and dental care is pretty solid, considering it's free and constantly available. You offer this kind of health care to everyday blue collar workers and see how grateful they'd be for that kind of coverage for them and their families. </div></div>
Sorry, doesn't work. It might be solid because it's free but there is zero way it compares to civilian care. Much of that is due to the litigiousness of the civilian world but it is by far not up to par. How do I know? I'm in the medical field and I've seen the differences first hand from both sides of the fence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try it... there will be a line a mile long. </div></div> Don't they have that now? They're called clinics and ER rooms.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why has the military had no problem meeting their recruitment goals since the economic downturn? Because it's better in the military than it is in the civilian world if you're fit, patriotic, and have a clean record. </div></div>
It's better in the military than in the civilian world if you're untrained, lack direction and never made more than minimum wage flipping burgers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there are shortcomings within the military system, the benefits package is extensive and comprehensive. </div></div> It sounds like you were in the Air Force. I don't know how you define "extensive and comprehensive", but I believe our definitions vary vastly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I've never seen so many break-in-service guys and dudes over 30 joining up. All of the ones I talked to admitted that the benefits package was a huge reason. These dudes are all mostly NCOs now, and quality personnel to boot. </div></div>
So my understanding by this last statement is the sole reason, or even the primary reason for BIS guys going back has nothing to do with Patriotism, or the fact that all of their military training left them unprepared for a civilian job? It's solely for the economic benefits? It's solely because the pay and benefits in the military are so good, they can't find comparable compensation in the civilian world? The great medical and dental? Or is it because it's an easy buck that they've done before and they're willing to sacrifice for job security?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Companies should take note from the military on how to take care of their employees.
</div></div>
Seriously? I need to rejoin your military. Because needs of the Navy and needs of the Army sounds like they have nothing in common.
So in the civilian world I should have to put a chit in to get married like I do in the service?
In the civilian world I should be told my job is being transferred in 1 month and too bad if I can't sell my house, my car, someone to take car of my dog. And what about single mothers?
If the civilian world WAS run like the military then unions would be needed immediately!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Really? You can quote base pay all you want, but we both know the compensation packages likely double that figure. My total compensation package as an NCO is around $48k/year. Not bad at all. </div></div>
Maybe for an NCO it will double, but no way in hell for an E-1. When I first went in as an E-3 I wasn't making 34K and I had Flight pay, hazardous duty pay, BHA, etc. and didn't come close to 34K.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've never seen an E1 work 24/7, and though his NCO can call him back in at any time, that happens rarely any unit I've been in.</div></div>
It happens ALL THE TIME in the service called the Navy. You will work a 12 hours shift, stand watch for 12 hours, and back on your shift. It happens at least once a week and maybe more depending on your billet. Even as Aircrew, which according to NATOPS (Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization) all aircrew are required 8-12 hours rest prior to any flight ops. You know how many times that was broken for "needs of the Navy?"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And even though it's a 0630-1700 job, it's not straight work like you're on an assembly line. </div></div>
Tell that to an aircraft mechanic that has to turn a bird around. They'll laugh at you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the Army you don't get charged for leave unless you travel outside of 350 miles on a 4 day weekend, or you're flying on a plane (at least in my command). </div></div>
Again, in the Navy you do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The health care and dental care is pretty solid, considering it's free and constantly available. You offer this kind of health care to everyday blue collar workers and see how grateful they'd be for that kind of coverage for them and their families. </div></div>
Sorry, doesn't work. It might be solid because it's free but there is zero way it compares to civilian care. Much of that is due to the litigiousness of the civilian world but it is by far not up to par. How do I know? I'm in the medical field and I've seen the differences first hand from both sides of the fence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try it... there will be a line a mile long. </div></div> Don't they have that now? They're called clinics and ER rooms.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why has the military had no problem meeting their recruitment goals since the economic downturn? Because it's better in the military than it is in the civilian world if you're fit, patriotic, and have a clean record. </div></div>
It's better in the military than in the civilian world if you're untrained, lack direction and never made more than minimum wage flipping burgers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there are shortcomings within the military system, the benefits package is extensive and comprehensive. </div></div> It sounds like you were in the Air Force. I don't know how you define "extensive and comprehensive", but I believe our definitions vary vastly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I've never seen so many break-in-service guys and dudes over 30 joining up. All of the ones I talked to admitted that the benefits package was a huge reason. These dudes are all mostly NCOs now, and quality personnel to boot. </div></div>
So my understanding by this last statement is the sole reason, or even the primary reason for BIS guys going back has nothing to do with Patriotism, or the fact that all of their military training left them unprepared for a civilian job? It's solely for the economic benefits? It's solely because the pay and benefits in the military are so good, they can't find comparable compensation in the civilian world? The great medical and dental? Or is it because it's an easy buck that they've done before and they're willing to sacrifice for job security?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Companies should take note from the military on how to take care of their employees.
</div></div>
Seriously? I need to rejoin your military. Because needs of the Navy and needs of the Army sounds like they have nothing in common.
So in the civilian world I should have to put a chit in to get married like I do in the service?
In the civilian world I should be told my job is being transferred in 1 month and too bad if I can't sell my house, my car, someone to take car of my dog. And what about single mothers?
If the civilian world WAS run like the military then unions would be needed immediately!
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
I'm going to stop before you give me the banhammer. Needless to say, you've got your position and I've got mine. I'm sorry the Navy was so bad to you. GO BIG GREEN!
I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Service Workers Union of America is the union in most hospitals. And has the largest amount of union members of any union. Those workers start out at around $8.50 an hour at our hospital here in WV That would be West Virginia University Hospital(now called Ruby memorial). Even 20 year empoyees only make $13-$15 an hour. Do you consider that overpaid??</div></div>
You can't look at what the wage is without looking at the cost of living. WV is one of the poorest states, if not THE poorest, in the union. You start out at $8.50? Doing what? If you're starting out you probably do not have any experience and very few, if any, job skills. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that you expect a cafeteria worker to make $30 an hour for doing menial labor?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You take the bad characteristics of a few and apply those to all. </div></div>
No, I take the bad characteristics of most and broadbrush it to all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our country needs coal to run. Without it we would be a third world country. Do you deny a worker 60,000-$100,000 a year in income to go down in that hole?? And subject themselves to death--lung disease and a whole host of other problems?? Have you ever been in a coal mine. I do not think they have silver spoons in a coal mine?? Tom.</div></div>
Sorry, but the answer is no. I don't think coalminers deserve 100K a year. We have to look at two different approaches. The first, is the danger factor of the job itself. The job site should be made as safe as feasibly possible and the company should be held in very strict standards and severely punished if those safety systems fail. So there should be some compensation for the danger aspect of it. The next portion is the skill level needed to dig the coal out. It's physically demanding and you must know how to operate heavy machinery. But it's not technical. It's labor intensive and dangerous but it's not brain surgery.
How difficult would coal mining be if it was on the surface and not down in a hole? How much would you expect coal miners to be paid then?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Service Workers Union of America is the union in most hospitals. And has the largest amount of union members of any union. Those workers start out at around $8.50 an hour at our hospital here in WV That would be West Virginia University Hospital(now called Ruby memorial). Even 20 year empoyees only make $13-$15 an hour. Do you consider that overpaid??</div></div>
You can't look at what the wage is without looking at the cost of living. WV is one of the poorest states, if not THE poorest, in the union. You start out at $8.50? Doing what? If you're starting out you probably do not have any experience and very few, if any, job skills. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that you expect a cafeteria worker to make $30 an hour for doing menial labor?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You take the bad characteristics of a few and apply those to all. </div></div>
No, I take the bad characteristics of most and broadbrush it to all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our country needs coal to run. Without it we would be a third world country. Do you deny a worker 60,000-$100,000 a year in income to go down in that hole?? And subject themselves to death--lung disease and a whole host of other problems?? Have you ever been in a coal mine. I do not think they have silver spoons in a coal mine?? Tom.</div></div>
Sorry, but the answer is no. I don't think coalminers deserve 100K a year. We have to look at two different approaches. The first, is the danger factor of the job itself. The job site should be made as safe as feasibly possible and the company should be held in very strict standards and severely punished if those safety systems fail. So there should be some compensation for the danger aspect of it. The next portion is the skill level needed to dig the coal out. It's physically demanding and you must know how to operate heavy machinery. But it's not technical. It's labor intensive and dangerous but it's not brain surgery.
How difficult would coal mining be if it was on the surface and not down in a hole? How much would you expect coal miners to be paid then?
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
I'm going to stop before you give me the banhammer. Needless to say, you've got your position and I've got mine. I'm sorry the Navy was so bad to you. GO BIG GREEN!</div></div>
ZL, this thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has.
I'm not looking to change anyone's mind and I don't expect anyone to try and change mine. I only expressed my opinion for it and if my side makes me an asshole than so be it. I have the right to express my opinion and you have yours, the same right we both fought to preserve.
Yeah, in hind sight I should have joined the AF but there's no history or tradition there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
ZL, this thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has.
I'm not looking to change anyone's mind and I don't expect anyone to try and change mine. I only expressed my opinion for it and if my side makes me an asshole than so be it. I have the right to express my opinion and you have yours, the same right we both fought to preserve.
Yeah, in hind sight I should have joined the AF but there's no history or tradition there.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
I'm going to stop before you give me the banhammer. Needless to say, you've got your position and I've got mine. I'm sorry the Navy was so bad to you. GO BIG GREEN!</div></div>
ZL, this thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm not looking to change anyone's mind and I don't expect anyone to try and change mine. I only expressed my opinion for it and if my side makes me an asshole than so be it. I have the right to express my opinion and you have yours, the same right we both fought to preserve.</span>
Yeah, in hind sight I should have joined the AF but there's no history or tradition there.
</div></div>
Amen to that, and the beer's on me if we ever get the chance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't help that you joined the wrong service.
ZL, this thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm not looking to change anyone's mind and I don't expect anyone to try and change mine. I only expressed my opinion for it and if my side makes me an asshole than so be it. I have the right to express my opinion and you have yours, the same right we both fought to preserve.</span>
Yeah, in hind sight I should have joined the AF but there's no history or tradition there.
Amen to that, and the beer's on me if we ever get the chance.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I agree the differant opinions is what makes us strong, as well as informed.
I agree the differant opinions is what makes us strong, as well as informed.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice to see y'all finally listened to 175g..</div></div>
Have you seen her pics? She would not need to tell me to stand at attention for me to stand at attention.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice to see y'all finally listened to 175g..</div></div>
Have you seen her pics? She would not need to tell me to stand at attention for me to stand at attention.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I hear that the Teamsters are looking to unionizes the USMC, we will have E3 making 57k per year + overtime. Heeheee! This should get them going!
I hear that the Teamsters are looking to unionizes the USMC, we will have E3 making 57k per year + overtime. Heeheee! This should get them going!
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I know I'm new here and all, but I figured if someone is willing to listen...I'll tell you about the union I belong to. I belong to the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union here in Illinois(go figure). Granted, this is the only union I have ever belonged to...I think you guys are letting every bad story you have ever heard about the Union sway your attitude on Unions. I'm not saying there are not bad unions out there, because there are. The same thing happens when we watch videos of bad police officers taking peoples guns away...not every police officer would do this.
With that said, I will be the first to admit I make a good wage...not CEO wage, but when I work...I can support my family on it. Do I deserve that kind of wage, I would like to think so...I did work full 40+ hour weeks during my apprenticeship and at the same time I went to MANDATORY night classes for 4 hours a night two times a week and the occasional Saturday. I did this for five years and at the end of the five years, I had to pass a state license test... BEFORE I could make "Journeyman scale".
Now, with that said, there is NO seniority in my Union...if your not worth a sh!t, you will be scratching your unemployed @ss. A contractor is not going to pay top dollar for someone who is inept. Another thing to note, is I only get paid when I work...period. Union employees do NOT receive vacation pay, holiday pay, sick pay...nothing. Quite frankly, if you don't work...you don't get paid.
I hope this sheds some favorable light on how some Unions operate...and so I stay on track. I think it is BULLSH!t that these workers will not walk their own pickit lines.
Kind regards,
Jared
I know I'm new here and all, but I figured if someone is willing to listen...I'll tell you about the union I belong to. I belong to the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union here in Illinois(go figure). Granted, this is the only union I have ever belonged to...I think you guys are letting every bad story you have ever heard about the Union sway your attitude on Unions. I'm not saying there are not bad unions out there, because there are. The same thing happens when we watch videos of bad police officers taking peoples guns away...not every police officer would do this.
With that said, I will be the first to admit I make a good wage...not CEO wage, but when I work...I can support my family on it. Do I deserve that kind of wage, I would like to think so...I did work full 40+ hour weeks during my apprenticeship and at the same time I went to MANDATORY night classes for 4 hours a night two times a week and the occasional Saturday. I did this for five years and at the end of the five years, I had to pass a state license test... BEFORE I could make "Journeyman scale".
Now, with that said, there is NO seniority in my Union...if your not worth a sh!t, you will be scratching your unemployed @ss. A contractor is not going to pay top dollar for someone who is inept. Another thing to note, is I only get paid when I work...period. Union employees do NOT receive vacation pay, holiday pay, sick pay...nothing. Quite frankly, if you don't work...you don't get paid.
I hope this sheds some favorable light on how some Unions operate...and so I stay on track. I think it is BULLSH!t that these workers will not walk their own pickit lines.
Kind regards,
Jared
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know I'm new here and all, but I figured if someone is willing to listen...I'll tell you about the union I belong to. I belong to the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union here in Illinois(go figure). Granted, this is the only union I have ever belonged to...I think you guys are letting every bad story you have ever heard about the Union sway your attitude on Unions. I'm not saying there are not bad unions out there, because there are. The same thing happens when we watch videos of bad police officers taking peoples guns away...not every police officer would do this.
With that said, I will be the first to admit I make a good wage...not CEO wage, but when I work...I can support my family on it. Do I deserve that kind of wage, I would like to think so...I did work full 40+ hour weeks during my apprenticeship and at the same time I went to MANDATORY night classes for 4 hours a night two times a week and the occasional Saturday. I did this for five years and at the end of the five years, I had to pass a state license test... BEFORE I could make "Journeyman scale".
Now, with that said, there is NO seniority in my Union...if your not worth a sh!t, you will be scratching your unemployed @ss. A contractor is not going to pay top dollar for someone who is inept. Another thing to note, is I only get paid when I work...period. Union employees do NOT receive vacation pay, holiday pay, sick pay...nothing. Quite frankly, if you don't work...you don't get paid.
I hope this sheds some favorable light on how some Unions operate...and so I stay on track. I think it is BULLSH!t that these workers will not walk their own pickit lines.
Kind regards,
Jared
</div></div>
UA Steamfitter Here.
Good to see another UA Brother on board.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know I'm new here and all, but I figured if someone is willing to listen...I'll tell you about the union I belong to. I belong to the Plumbers & Pipefitters Union here in Illinois(go figure). Granted, this is the only union I have ever belonged to...I think you guys are letting every bad story you have ever heard about the Union sway your attitude on Unions. I'm not saying there are not bad unions out there, because there are. The same thing happens when we watch videos of bad police officers taking peoples guns away...not every police officer would do this.
With that said, I will be the first to admit I make a good wage...not CEO wage, but when I work...I can support my family on it. Do I deserve that kind of wage, I would like to think so...I did work full 40+ hour weeks during my apprenticeship and at the same time I went to MANDATORY night classes for 4 hours a night two times a week and the occasional Saturday. I did this for five years and at the end of the five years, I had to pass a state license test... BEFORE I could make "Journeyman scale".
Now, with that said, there is NO seniority in my Union...if your not worth a sh!t, you will be scratching your unemployed @ss. A contractor is not going to pay top dollar for someone who is inept. Another thing to note, is I only get paid when I work...period. Union employees do NOT receive vacation pay, holiday pay, sick pay...nothing. Quite frankly, if you don't work...you don't get paid.
I hope this sheds some favorable light on how some Unions operate...and so I stay on track. I think it is BULLSH!t that these workers will not walk their own pickit lines.
Kind regards,
Jared
</div></div>
UA Steamfitter Here.
Good to see another UA Brother on board.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
"Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too".
So...you don't conceder this statement of yours where you call every Union member a baby,,that needs to be nursed,an non-inflammatory and non-degrading derogatory and so called civil statement?
Well I sir take exception.
It figures.
"This thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has."
Civil on your part?
Take your inflammatory degrading post of your fellow man and go ban your self.
And befor you do so How about posting some data to support your so called facts?
Your opinions are just that,yours,,,,full of half truths and misinformation.
Look up the anti trust laws pertaining to the formation of Unions,you will see why the Supreme Court of the United States of America is all for the rights for Collective Barging Agreements,Unions and the Men and Women they represent.
"Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too".
So...you don't conceder this statement of yours where you call every Union member a baby,,that needs to be nursed,an non-inflammatory and non-degrading derogatory and so called civil statement?
Well I sir take exception.
It figures.
"This thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has."
Civil on your part?
Take your inflammatory degrading post of your fellow man and go ban your self.
And befor you do so How about posting some data to support your so called facts?
Your opinions are just that,yours,,,,full of half truths and misinformation.
Look up the anti trust laws pertaining to the formation of Unions,you will see why the Supreme Court of the United States of America is all for the rights for Collective Barging Agreements,Unions and the Men and Women they represent.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too".
So...you don't conceder this statement of yours where you call every Union member a baby,,that needs to be nursed,an non-inflammatory and non-degrading derogatory and so called civil statement?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Can you show me where I said "baby" "that needs to be nursed" or do you want to continue to make things up?</span>
Well I sir take exception.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
It figures.</span>
"This thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has."
Civil on your part?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Civil on everyone's part.</span>
Take your inflammatory degrading post of your fellow man and go ban your self.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Nope. The only people this post offends are the ones that are represented by my statements. If you don't like it, I invite you not to read or respond. </span>
And befor you do so How about posting some data to support your so called facts?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Data to support my facts? Like the link I posted at the beginning of this thread? </span>
Your opinions are just that,yours,,,,full of half truths and misinformation.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Nope, opinions are just that, opinions. Again, if you don't like my opinion, I don't care. Why don't you bring your grievance up to your shop steward and see if he'll let you cry on his shoulder. </span>
Look up the anti trust laws pertaining to the formation of Unions,you will see why the Supreme Court of the United States of America is all for the rights for Collective Barging Agreements,Unions and the Men and Women they represent.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I did. Here is what I found</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">
There is considerable conflict between the goals of the antitrust laws and the labor laws. Antitrust laws foster competition, labor laws tend to raise and/or standardize wages and working conditions, and permit other collective labor activities that minimize the competitive advantages of the labor component of a product or service. Originally antitrust laws prevailed and labor activities referenced above had to be expressly exempted from antitrust laws. This labor exemption is the product of five sets of statutes and judicial case law (Clayton, 1914: Norris-Laguardia, 1932; National Labor Relations Act (Wagner), 1935; Labor Management Relations Act (Taft-Hartley), 1947; Labor Management Disclosure and Reporting Act (Landrum-Griffin), 1959; and federal court decisions dealing with the interpretation of the scope of a labor exemption. Broadly speaking, these laws and decisions established antitrust laws, declared the exemption(s) to the antitrust laws and defined the scope of activities covered by the exemption.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I notice that again, with one exception, those laws reflected labor and working conditions in the first half of the 20th century. It's the 21st century now, we've moved beyond the need for unions. </span>
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Don't get me wrong, if I was sucking at the union tit I would defend it too".
So...you don't conceder this statement of yours where you call every Union member a baby,,that needs to be nursed,an non-inflammatory and non-degrading derogatory and so called civil statement?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Can you show me where I said "baby" "that needs to be nursed" or do you want to continue to make things up?</span>
Well I sir take exception.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
It figures.</span>
"This thread has about 130 replies and I haven't banned anyone and I'm not going to as long as the discussion remains civil which it most certainly has."
Civil on your part?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Civil on everyone's part.</span>
Take your inflammatory degrading post of your fellow man and go ban your self.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Nope. The only people this post offends are the ones that are represented by my statements. If you don't like it, I invite you not to read or respond. </span>
And befor you do so How about posting some data to support your so called facts?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Data to support my facts? Like the link I posted at the beginning of this thread? </span>
Your opinions are just that,yours,,,,full of half truths and misinformation.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Nope, opinions are just that, opinions. Again, if you don't like my opinion, I don't care. Why don't you bring your grievance up to your shop steward and see if he'll let you cry on his shoulder. </span>
Look up the anti trust laws pertaining to the formation of Unions,you will see why the Supreme Court of the United States of America is all for the rights for Collective Barging Agreements,Unions and the Men and Women they represent.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I did. Here is what I found</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">
There is considerable conflict between the goals of the antitrust laws and the labor laws. Antitrust laws foster competition, labor laws tend to raise and/or standardize wages and working conditions, and permit other collective labor activities that minimize the competitive advantages of the labor component of a product or service. Originally antitrust laws prevailed and labor activities referenced above had to be expressly exempted from antitrust laws. This labor exemption is the product of five sets of statutes and judicial case law (Clayton, 1914: Norris-Laguardia, 1932; National Labor Relations Act (Wagner), 1935; Labor Management Relations Act (Taft-Hartley), 1947; Labor Management Disclosure and Reporting Act (Landrum-Griffin), 1959; and federal court decisions dealing with the interpretation of the scope of a labor exemption. Broadly speaking, these laws and decisions established antitrust laws, declared the exemption(s) to the antitrust laws and defined the scope of activities covered by the exemption.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I notice that again, with one exception, those laws reflected labor and working conditions in the first half of the 20th century. It's the 21st century now, we've moved beyond the need for unions. </span>
</div></div>
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
Any Union Member that will not walk his own picket line does not deserve the wage he is earning, nor the respect a man may give.
Union strength(Honest Strength) was bought with the blood, sweat, and selfless service and sacrifice of men willing to walk the line. It was these men who brought up the wage standard in the early times of Mangement greed and lust for one more dollar without respect to what a man was going through to work for only dinner and a small house for his family and not much more.
The Management, or Mismanagment of todays unions is disgusting to the worker who has an honest backbone. The lazy sumbitches who don't walk their line nor earn their wage are also not respected by these honest men who are willing to work hard for a fair wage and the respect a Skilled Journeyman has.
If you don't want to pay good wages, hire your ass a bunch of Mexicans and have at it. They will work for your sorry ass for minimum wage so you can get fat on beef and cocktails while smoking those $40 cigars. When you get ready for that decadent desert, I hope you fucking choke on it because it is YOU who are turning our fine country and everything we worked for to shit because you didn't have the solid moral code to give a man a fair wage and gave his job to illegal scum
Good Men, Moral Men, walk their lines with pride, and Honest Men do not cross them
Any Union Member that will not walk his own picket line does not deserve the wage he is earning, nor the respect a man may give.
Union strength(Honest Strength) was bought with the blood, sweat, and selfless service and sacrifice of men willing to walk the line. It was these men who brought up the wage standard in the early times of Mangement greed and lust for one more dollar without respect to what a man was going through to work for only dinner and a small house for his family and not much more.
The Management, or Mismanagment of todays unions is disgusting to the worker who has an honest backbone. The lazy sumbitches who don't walk their line nor earn their wage are also not respected by these honest men who are willing to work hard for a fair wage and the respect a Skilled Journeyman has.
If you don't want to pay good wages, hire your ass a bunch of Mexicans and have at it. They will work for your sorry ass for minimum wage so you can get fat on beef and cocktails while smoking those $40 cigars. When you get ready for that decadent desert, I hope you fucking choke on it because it is YOU who are turning our fine country and everything we worked for to shit because you didn't have the solid moral code to give a man a fair wage and gave his job to illegal scum
Good Men, Moral Men, walk their lines with pride, and Honest Men do not cross them
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
The best that I can say is that at least where I work unions are at best a necessary evil. I work for a large defense contractor who at least here is not known for its stellar labor relations.
At the same time I see daily lower work quality and production than should be acceptable because of the union not choosing to hold the line. I have seen this for the 22 years I have been employed here and it has gotten worse lately.
I have belonged to unions for over 30 years, 8 as a Teamster (During there falling out period with the AFL-CIO which I think was a blessing)and just over 22 in the IAM.I personally don't like unions for these and many more reasons that are political in nature.
The best that I can say is that at least where I work unions are at best a necessary evil. I work for a large defense contractor who at least here is not known for its stellar labor relations.
At the same time I see daily lower work quality and production than should be acceptable because of the union not choosing to hold the line. I have seen this for the 22 years I have been employed here and it has gotten worse lately.
I have belonged to unions for over 30 years, 8 as a Teamster (During there falling out period with the AFL-CIO which I think was a blessing)and just over 22 in the IAM.I personally don't like unions for these and many more reasons that are political in nature.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I am friends with enough union workers to know that there are those with great work ethic and skills and not all are lazy or fat, and I have worked with enough bums to know that they are everywhere.
I think everyone here can agree that unions were ABSOLUTELY necessary at one point. Now they have outlived that usefulness and tend to promote greed, laziness, apathy, and complacency. Example: I work for one of 6 shops owned here in the NE. Three are union and three are not. BTW, the three that are not were getting all the perks we currently have before we merged with the union shops, so the union didn't benefit us. Us three that are not kick the shit out of the three that are in profits, safety, turn-around time, customer satisfaction, and everything else. All the shops hear about it from the owner on a quarterly basis. I know, this is only one example so don't jump down my throat.
A lot is getting said about a "decent income or wage". You mean like the one the Harley Davidson workers thought they should keep when they went on strike a few years ago in York; all benefits, pensions, and insurance fully paid for on top of a starting wage of $21.00 on the factory floor. This is such a joke. No assembly line worker deserves this starting out. The funniest part was, some lazy union boss was getting paid to sit on his butt while he "helped" the members(laborers) who were out picketing on the coldest recorded day of the year. Again, just another isolated example.
I get sick of the teachers in our district crying how they deserve more money. They only work 8 months, have all holidays paid for, vacation, pension, full insurance, and teach the same thing over and over, so they don't have to keep up to date with new products, building codes, laws, construction material, etc. Thanks to the Right-To-Know law in this state, I have all of their salaries. They make more in 8 months than most people in this rural area do in a year. Still, another isolated example.
I know someone that works for the State. I hear horrible stories from him about what goes on and no one gets fired. I would be kicked to the curb in a heart beat with my company for such laziness or pulling such BS. All this because of union protection. Yet again, an isolated example.
I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
As for prevailing wage. That is what drives prices up. If prevailing wage didn't exist, a company could undercut a union company and do it cheaper which would cost the tax payer or customer less. I know this would happen because I have first hand experience with this.
Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion. And mine is that I will work for less money if it means not handing some of my wage over to a greedy union. So, I guess you could say that the institution of a union is kinda like a greedy corporation...Just with less purpose. Union president=CEO
I am friends with enough union workers to know that there are those with great work ethic and skills and not all are lazy or fat, and I have worked with enough bums to know that they are everywhere.
I think everyone here can agree that unions were ABSOLUTELY necessary at one point. Now they have outlived that usefulness and tend to promote greed, laziness, apathy, and complacency. Example: I work for one of 6 shops owned here in the NE. Three are union and three are not. BTW, the three that are not were getting all the perks we currently have before we merged with the union shops, so the union didn't benefit us. Us three that are not kick the shit out of the three that are in profits, safety, turn-around time, customer satisfaction, and everything else. All the shops hear about it from the owner on a quarterly basis. I know, this is only one example so don't jump down my throat.
A lot is getting said about a "decent income or wage". You mean like the one the Harley Davidson workers thought they should keep when they went on strike a few years ago in York; all benefits, pensions, and insurance fully paid for on top of a starting wage of $21.00 on the factory floor. This is such a joke. No assembly line worker deserves this starting out. The funniest part was, some lazy union boss was getting paid to sit on his butt while he "helped" the members(laborers) who were out picketing on the coldest recorded day of the year. Again, just another isolated example.
I get sick of the teachers in our district crying how they deserve more money. They only work 8 months, have all holidays paid for, vacation, pension, full insurance, and teach the same thing over and over, so they don't have to keep up to date with new products, building codes, laws, construction material, etc. Thanks to the Right-To-Know law in this state, I have all of their salaries. They make more in 8 months than most people in this rural area do in a year. Still, another isolated example.
I know someone that works for the State. I hear horrible stories from him about what goes on and no one gets fired. I would be kicked to the curb in a heart beat with my company for such laziness or pulling such BS. All this because of union protection. Yet again, an isolated example.
I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
As for prevailing wage. That is what drives prices up. If prevailing wage didn't exist, a company could undercut a union company and do it cheaper which would cost the tax payer or customer less. I know this would happen because I have first hand experience with this.
Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion. And mine is that I will work for less money if it means not handing some of my wage over to a greedy union. So, I guess you could say that the institution of a union is kinda like a greedy corporation...Just with less purpose. Union president=CEO
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I have not read all the above post but I will comment.
In the beginning unions were created because the people had no voice and weilded little power to change conditions that were dictated by greedy business owners and overlooked by bought out/paid off political officials.
This worked and did very well for many years.
Now greed and corruption runs rampant thru the entire system...
So hard to fix with this much corruption and caos.
Kinda like putting a bandaid on a guy that got hit by a claymore mine explosion...............It just won't work
..........Just my opinion......SmokeRolls
I have not read all the above post but I will comment.
In the beginning unions were created because the people had no voice and weilded little power to change conditions that were dictated by greedy business owners and overlooked by bought out/paid off political officials.
This worked and did very well for many years.
Now greed and corruption runs rampant thru the entire system...
So hard to fix with this much corruption and caos.
Kinda like putting a bandaid on a guy that got hit by a claymore mine explosion...............It just won't work
..........Just my opinion......SmokeRolls
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not read all the above post but I will comment.
In the beginning unions were created because the people had no voice and weilded little power to change conditions that were dictated by greedy business owners and overlooked by bought out/paid off political officials.
This worked and did very well for many years.
Now greed and corruption runs rampant thru the entire system...
So hard to fix with this much corruption and caos.
Kinda like putting a bandaid on a guy that got hit by a claymore mine explosion...............It just won't work
..........Just my opinion......SmokeRolls </div></div>
That pretty well sums up my thoughts. I tend to take the side of the business owner. Probably because IMO, my company has a reasonably caring one. All of us get "fed" well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not read all the above post but I will comment.
In the beginning unions were created because the people had no voice and weilded little power to change conditions that were dictated by greedy business owners and overlooked by bought out/paid off political officials.
This worked and did very well for many years.
Now greed and corruption runs rampant thru the entire system...
So hard to fix with this much corruption and caos.
Kinda like putting a bandaid on a guy that got hit by a claymore mine explosion...............It just won't work
..........Just my opinion......SmokeRolls </div></div>
That pretty well sums up my thoughts. I tend to take the side of the business owner. Probably because IMO, my company has a reasonably caring one. All of us get "fed" well.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
</div></div>
The steel industry left Pittsburgh for a lot of reasons. And blaming that on the unions is just wrong. The steel industry in Pittsburgh went under because Japan subsidized their own National steel industry. And modernized all the Japanese steel mills. Then flooded the US market with less expensive Japanese steel that was subsidized by the country of Japan. While the only mills that stayed in business in the Pittsburgh area where the mills that spent the money to update their equipment. And our government refused to put a tariff on that Japanese steel even though they knew it was being subsidized by the Japanese government!!
Now the Chinese government is subsidizing the Chinese steel industry. And the Chinese could care less about the environment. While the environmental restrictions on the American steel industry has completely strangled them.
So do not blame the union for a problem they did not create. Learn your history. Labor cost for producing a ton of steel is lower now than ever. Because the industry has modernized. However for the most part it left our country. Tom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
</div></div>
The steel industry left Pittsburgh for a lot of reasons. And blaming that on the unions is just wrong. The steel industry in Pittsburgh went under because Japan subsidized their own National steel industry. And modernized all the Japanese steel mills. Then flooded the US market with less expensive Japanese steel that was subsidized by the country of Japan. While the only mills that stayed in business in the Pittsburgh area where the mills that spent the money to update their equipment. And our government refused to put a tariff on that Japanese steel even though they knew it was being subsidized by the Japanese government!!
Now the Chinese government is subsidizing the Chinese steel industry. And the Chinese could care less about the environment. While the environmental restrictions on the American steel industry has completely strangled them.
So do not blame the union for a problem they did not create. Learn your history. Labor cost for producing a ton of steel is lower now than ever. Because the industry has modernized. However for the most part it left our country. Tom.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for prevailing wage. That is what drives prices up. If prevailing wage didn't exist, a company could undercut a union company and do it cheaper which would cost the tax payer or customer less. I know this would happen because I have first hand experience with this.
</div></div>
I have first hand experience too, and would be inclined to believe the above more if the immigration laws were enforced and it was just the strength of a quality product that set price.
Think a custom/semi custom sub moa rifle would cost the same if I got some machines and taught five <span style="text-decoration: line-through">guys</span> undocumented guests that would take $7/hr cash to do the machining and I paid one guy a good wage to do the QC? You can't train a guy for cheap to build a whole rifle, but I guarantee you could train a few to do handle the different steps individually.
This thread is about (actually has been since the start) to spin into forbidden territory of non-RKBA related politics....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for prevailing wage. That is what drives prices up. If prevailing wage didn't exist, a company could undercut a union company and do it cheaper which would cost the tax payer or customer less. I know this would happen because I have first hand experience with this.
</div></div>
I have first hand experience too, and would be inclined to believe the above more if the immigration laws were enforced and it was just the strength of a quality product that set price.
Think a custom/semi custom sub moa rifle would cost the same if I got some machines and taught five <span style="text-decoration: line-through">guys</span> undocumented guests that would take $7/hr cash to do the machining and I paid one guy a good wage to do the QC? You can't train a guy for cheap to build a whole rifle, but I guarantee you could train a few to do handle the different steps individually.
This thread is about (actually has been since the start) to spin into forbidden territory of non-RKBA related politics....
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This thread is about (actually has been since the start) to spin into forbidden territory of non-RKBA related politics....</div></div>
Negative. I did not start this thread for a political discussion, it was started solely as a vent to my frustration with unions. Please don't put words in my mouth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This thread is about (actually has been since the start) to spin into forbidden territory of non-RKBA related politics....</div></div>
Negative. I did not start this thread for a political discussion, it was started solely as a vent to my frustration with unions. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I'm not putting words in your mouth. Just because you start a thread with an objective link doesn't mean that the four pages that resulted havent't become opinions that cause bad blood amongst folks that otherwise agree and are interested and respectful of each others viewpoints and knowledge on theings having to do with precision rifles and their application.
I am a union member. I was raised anti-union, then after working in the ancillary healthcare field for peanuts I found I could play with real Tonka toys for twice the money and joined the Operating Engineers.
I did the "American" thing and took advantage of what was available to put the most money in my pocket.
Most of the unions here hire "undocumented immigrants" to hold their picket signs adn yeah, it makes me want to puke. I don't have that problem in my Local because its too chickenshit to even negotiate a real contract, it takes what the wmployers want to give regardless of how we vote.
I know I didn't have to post or even read this thread, but unfortunately I did.....
I'm not putting words in your mouth. Just because you start a thread with an objective link doesn't mean that the four pages that resulted havent't become opinions that cause bad blood amongst folks that otherwise agree and are interested and respectful of each others viewpoints and knowledge on theings having to do with precision rifles and their application.
I am a union member. I was raised anti-union, then after working in the ancillary healthcare field for peanuts I found I could play with real Tonka toys for twice the money and joined the Operating Engineers.
I did the "American" thing and took advantage of what was available to put the most money in my pocket.
Most of the unions here hire "undocumented immigrants" to hold their picket signs adn yeah, it makes me want to puke. I don't have that problem in my Local because its too chickenshit to even negotiate a real contract, it takes what the wmployers want to give regardless of how we vote.
I know I didn't have to post or even read this thread, but unfortunately I did.....
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
</div></div>
Learn your history. Labor cost for producing a ton of steel is lower now than ever. Because the industry has modernized. However for the most part it left our country. Tom. </div></div>
I do know my history. As I said, there were many reasons, strikes and overpaid employees were only contributing factors. But, nevertheless, still contributing factors. And, yes, I'm fully aware of the Japanese and non-tariff end of it. FWIW, I've always been for high tariffs to try and keep industry in this country, but that's for another time. Lower labor cost is too little too late.
There was a huge issue going on years ago about Hershey Chocolate moving out of the area. Once again, although there were many reasons for this consideration, labor was a big enough one that it was fully covered in the news, along with the starting wage which was outrageous.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there were a lot of reasons and factors for this, but the steel industry leaving Pittsburgh. Nuff said.
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Learn your history. Labor cost for producing a ton of steel is lower now than ever. Because the industry has modernized. However for the most part it left our country. Tom. </div></div>
I do know my history. As I said, there were many reasons, strikes and overpaid employees were only contributing factors. But, nevertheless, still contributing factors. And, yes, I'm fully aware of the Japanese and non-tariff end of it. FWIW, I've always been for high tariffs to try and keep industry in this country, but that's for another time. Lower labor cost is too little too late.
There was a huge issue going on years ago about Hershey Chocolate moving out of the area. Once again, although there were many reasons for this consideration, labor was a big enough one that it was fully covered in the news, along with the starting wage which was outrageous.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I didn't think the topic would go on this long. It only shows-from both sides- that opinions are pretty strong and deep.
It wouldn't affect me one way or the other what anyone's thoughts are. I just know now who I can talk to about what. My feelings about any individual have not changed.
I didn't think the topic would go on this long. It only shows-from both sides- that opinions are pretty strong and deep.
It wouldn't affect me one way or the other what anyone's thoughts are. I just know now who I can talk to about what. My feelings about any individual have not changed.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I hear ya, and I should have put "have the potential to cause bad blood" instead.....
I'm cool with anyone's opinions on anything, so long as they are thought out and not just blindly following what others have fed them.
I hear ya, and I should have put "have the potential to cause bad blood" instead.....
I'm cool with anyone's opinions on anything, so long as they are thought out and not just blindly following what others have fed them.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wouldn't affect me one way or the other what anyone's thoughts are. I just know now who I can talk to about what. My feelings about any individual have not changed. </div></div>
Agreed. I think this is an interesting discussion. Even though no one will win or change anyone's opinion, I'm interested in hearing other view points. In the end I understand you do what you have to do to pay the bills.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wouldn't affect me one way or the other what anyone's thoughts are. I just know now who I can talk to about what. My feelings about any individual have not changed. </div></div>
Agreed. I think this is an interesting discussion. Even though no one will win or change anyone's opinion, I'm interested in hearing other view points. In the end I understand you do what you have to do to pay the bills.
Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions
I am a member of IAFF Local 820. (International Association of Firefighters). Some of you say you hate the unions. Where I work you do not have to be a member of the Union. More people are members than not. I can say this,if it had not been for the union My pay would not be where it is now, and I and my family can tell you that isn't too high. I work 2 jobs and used to bitch about it but now I am glad to have both jobs. The economy sucks but it is not the unions single handily destroying America as you say. Greed and corruption at the higher levels. We would not get anything if it was not for the unions. The businesses would treat people like shit. They are like all people. They will get away with as much as you will let them get away with. In the last 8 yrs I have had ONE damn raise and I still belong to the Union. Will belong until I retire which will be in 2 yrs. But I see the other side too about some people getting paid high hourly wages. Guess what they were lucky (or smarter)than I. I am glad someone gets paid good money. What would your non union pay be. In a way it is tied in to compete with the union. My city thinks its more important to have art and culture than to pay decent salaries. If you don't think non union and union issues don't deal with politics then you are sadly mistaken. He who has the most politics gets the best jobs. That ain't no B.S. Either.
I am a member of IAFF Local 820. (International Association of Firefighters). Some of you say you hate the unions. Where I work you do not have to be a member of the Union. More people are members than not. I can say this,if it had not been for the union My pay would not be where it is now, and I and my family can tell you that isn't too high. I work 2 jobs and used to bitch about it but now I am glad to have both jobs. The economy sucks but it is not the unions single handily destroying America as you say. Greed and corruption at the higher levels. We would not get anything if it was not for the unions. The businesses would treat people like shit. They are like all people. They will get away with as much as you will let them get away with. In the last 8 yrs I have had ONE damn raise and I still belong to the Union. Will belong until I retire which will be in 2 yrs. But I see the other side too about some people getting paid high hourly wages. Guess what they were lucky (or smarter)than I. I am glad someone gets paid good money. What would your non union pay be. In a way it is tied in to compete with the union. My city thinks its more important to have art and culture than to pay decent salaries. If you don't think non union and union issues don't deal with politics then you are sadly mistaken. He who has the most politics gets the best jobs. That ain't no B.S. Either.
