Gunsmithing Any Melonite updates

[sparks1]

Reading past posts on this treatment, I just heard about this, and see some have had this done. Any updates for us?

I talked to a guy from Mn. today that shoots a 6.5/284 that he is considering it for. So I went home and did a search on 6mmBR.com for it. Interesting reading. Also saw a U-Tube video from the shot show with a shooter expousing it as better than sliced bread.

 

[wadebrown]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I am going to have my new 338 Edge and 6 mm BR barrels treated with the QPQ that is getting pretty good review for extending barrel life by some very good benchrest shooters. Where in MN are you I am in the Metro area and would be happy to show you the barrels when done. The company has a $100 min charge and charges $60/barrel so if you are interested and in the Metro area I could include a barrel of yours in the order. I make no guarantees on the process I would be just passing it on.

Go to 6mmbr.com and search on "Salt-Bath Nitriding" to see an article from the Shot Show.

wade

 

[sparks1]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I read those aricles and watched U-Tube video on the process. Then I came here to read about if anyone had done the process. Lots of posts from last fall, but no updates yet.
I can see the reason for doing it on a "barrel burner" but I do not have such animals. 6.5Grendel and .308W in Savage 10FCP HS are my current rifles. It's possible the 6.5Grendel could be re-barreled later to 6.5x47Lapua so I won't do Melonite on the SS barrel. Maybe if I do a 6.5-08 someday or a 260 Rem.

I am just north of Anoka (Ramsey) and shoot at Minnetonka Game and Fish. Will try to get to Elk River this summer for F-Class.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I have AR's with Melonite coating inside and out. I love it for the durability but the barrels work loose on some if they're "completely" coated. I guess it's just that slick!

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have AR's with Melonite coating inside and out. I love it for the durability but the barrels work loose on some if they're "completely" coated. I guess it's just that slick! </div></div>

How does an AR barrel work loose when there is a gas tube run thru the teeth on the barrel nut to keep it from happening ?

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Any Melonite updates

You can get about 1/2"-3/4" of twist before the gas tube stops the process. I experienced it first hand. It was on an AR with a rail system on it. I didn't take it apart because it's new. I just sent it back and the maker replace the whole upper.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Wheres the BS Flag when you need it!

 

[USMCj]

Re: Any Melonite updates

more like a 1/4" max, if that. Ever heard of loctite?

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Any Melonite updates

No, No, No... This is no bullshit. A friend of mine that doesn't shoot much was shooting it and brought it over to me to find out if it should be happening. When he first showed me I thought the gas-block had come loose and moved because the front sight was at an angle. Then I grabbed it and realized it was the whole freakin' barrel!
It's a Spikes Tactical "Operator" upper and the good folks at Spikes told me about that being an issue on some, not all, of the Melonite barreled uppers. They simply replaced the whole upper and I was on my way.

 

[steve123]

Re: Any Melonite updates

He's telling the truth.

I recently had this same problem on one of my uppers without the Melonite coating.It was giving me fits.POI changes!!! I thought my scope was busted and even bought some NF rings because I thought it was some cheap rings I was using.Nope it was the barrel nut loosening up gradually over time.I finally noticed my barrel was loose.I had grabbed the barrel and cracked it loose with hand pressure.

Steve

 

[USMCj]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Either way, blue loctite is your friend.

 

[steve123]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Either way, blue loctite is your friend. </div></div>

Yeah and I wish the gunsmith that built the upper would have used blue loctite because it cost me about 500 rounds of frustration before I discovered what the problem was

 

[gme]

Re: Any Melonite updates

We tracked two 7 SAUM barrels for throat erosion, both were the same maker, twist, contour and chamber, both were fired with the same load, at 500 rounds the untreated barrel had .055 erosion, the treated one had .003, both barrels displayed excellent accuracy. A .308 barrel with the same treatment was less successful, it copper fouled badly but we had no control barrel to compare it with.

 

[scotharr]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I was gonna have Pierce Engineering provide some melonite barrels to test them out. Was gonna have identical barrels made up: one with and one without. He said customers were reporting accuracy problems and stopped sending them in for treatment. Oh well. It's probably better than chrome-lining, but it you are looking for match-grade accuracy think carefully.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I'm not an expert in this field but as I read how the process was done I thought it was a "thinner" coating than Chrome but have since learned it's actually thicker than Chrome lining. That may help explain the accuracy issues. I've only had it on 16" AR barrels and for them it's fine since the expected accuracy (at least to me) is around 2.0 MOA.

 

[cut rifled]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Guys we have had excellent results with the Melonite process.
The accuracy we have seen on our benchrest barrels is outstanding their is no fouling at all from shot one and throat life is greatly extended. I know that one of the Big name gun company's has over 8000 rounds through a .338 Lapua that Joel Kendrick did for them, and it is still going strong. Joel also has 9000 rounds through his 6X44 600yd benchrest rifle and is still shooting it in competition.

Now here is my disclaimer, I will not use anybody but Joel Kendrick at MMI-Trutec for doing this, he is the only one in my opinion that knows what he is doing with firearms, we used a couple different company's that do the Melonite process, but do not seem to know what they are doing with barrels, we had some terrible results from those places. Also if you have a Melonited barrel that is fouling it can be relapped and it will take care of the issue. The Melonite process is not thicker than chrome and is a case hardening and you don't have to compensate your machining for the thickness where as you would have to for chroming.


Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels

 

[Chiller]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cut rifled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys we have had excellent results with the Melonite process.
The accuracy we have seen on our benchrest barrels is outstanding their is no fouling at all from shot one and throat life is greatly extended. I know that one of the Big name gun company's has over 8000 rounds through a .338 Lapua that Joel Kendrick did for them, and it is still going strong. Joel also has 9000 rounds through his 6X44 600yd benchrest rifle and is still shooting it in competition.

Now here is my disclaimer, I will not use anybody but Joel Kendrick at MMI-Trutec for doing this, he is the only one in my opinion that knows what he is doing with firearms, we used a couple different company's that do the Melonite process, but do not seem to know what they are doing with barrels, we had some terrible results from those places. Also if you have a Melonited barrel that is fouling it can be relapped and it will take care of the issue. The Melonite process is not thicker than chrome and is a case hardening and you don't have to compensate your machining for the thickness where as you would have to for chroming.


Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels </div></div>

Paul,

Thank you for the heads up. Have a call into Joel

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I have a Spikes Tactical M-4 When they built it for me They recomended I use the Daniel Defens Barrel 1:7 twist with the melonite / phosphate finish. It has held up to being dinged going through doors and in and out of vehicles. It also shoots like a champ.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cut rifled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys we have had excellent results with the Melonite process.
The accuracy we have seen on our benchrest barrels is outstanding their is no fouling at all from shot one and throat life is greatly extended. I know that one of the Big name gun company's has over 8000 rounds through a .338 Lapua that Joel Kendrick did for them, and it is still going strong. Joel also has 9000 rounds through his 6X44 600yd benchrest rifle and is still shooting it in competition.

Now here is my disclaimer, I will not use anybody but Joel Kendrick at MMI-Trutec for doing this, he is the only one in my opinion that knows what he is doing with firearms, we used a couple different company's that do the Melonite process, but do not seem to know what they are doing with barrels, we had some terrible results from those places. Also if you have a Melonited barrel that is fouling it can be relapped and it will take care of the issue. <span style="color: #FF0000">The Melonite process is not thicker than chrome and is a case hardening and you don't have to compensate your machining for the thickness where as you would have to for chroming.</span>

Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels </div></div>
Thank you for clearing that up! As I said after reading about the process, I thought it would be thinner and was obviously mis-informed when I was told it was thicker. That's Great news! I remain a fan of Melonite.

 

[Billyboy]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Interesting stuff! Can you do a bare barreled action? Or does the barrel need to come off?

 

[Tactical Support]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Tag

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: Any Melonite updates

As of last check, I was told that using it on actions was a no go, because the process altered their metalurgical properties too much. Made them too hard.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Not according to Joel. He has just done 3 actions for BAT. They have tighter tolerances than anyone i know. If Bruce gives the O.K. stamp it's good enough for me!

 

[idahoshooter]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Anybody got a link for this stuff (the company that does it I mean)? Thanks.

http://mminitriding.com/applications.htm

Is this the place, I dont see melonite mentioned.

 

[ST42]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I believe this is the company that you're looking for,

http://www.hefusa.net/index.htm

Look at the lower left hand corner of the Home page.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody got a link for this stuff (the company that does it I mean)? Thanks.

http://mminitriding.com/applications.htm

Is this the place, I dont see melonite mentioned. </div></div>

Idahoshooter, That is the place I send my stuff to. They do a good job and stand behind there work as well.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have AR's with Melonite coating inside and out. I love it for the durability but the barrels work loose on some if they're "completely" coated. I guess it's just that slick! </div></div>

How does an AR barrel work loose when there is a gas tube run thru the teeth on the barrel nut to keep it from happening ?
</div></div>Not all barrel nuts or handguard assys are the same, but I will say this...the barrel nut on an AR would have to back out far enough to allow the barrel to disengage from it's indexing pin in order to twist free of the receiver.

If someone is shooting an AR with the barrel nut backed off that far and didn't know it, they shouldn't be any where hear a firearm, or anything electrical, or sharp objects for that matter.
JMO
On Melonite, it's a very cool process. We use it extensively in racing engines on high stress/high wear parts and for friction reduction. I can see a definite application in firearms for the same reason, but I can also see that whoever is doing the process would have to know something about firearms. This has me thinking about my current 7mmRM build (knowing they can be hard on barrels) and looking into the process.
I would venture a guess that if someone did a heat comparison between ten shots through an untreated barrel, and ten fired through a Melonited barrel, there would be a measurable heat reduction on the treated barrel.

 

[C Snyder]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I spoke with the owner at MMI trutec and he stated that he can do both barrels and actions with no loss in heat treat of the core material. I was actually going to have a suregon action and bolt done with the barrel. He said that it actually works better on stainless steel vs. chromemoly.

I also asked him about finishing the barrels in Cerakote after the coating was applied. I figured that it would be so slick that nothing would stick to it. He stated just the opposite. He said it acted like a primer for the paint and would hold any coating very well.

I am looking at building a 243win with this treatment and seeing if it will infact hold a Cerakote finish. When asked about breaking a barrel in before sending it, they would prefer less than 100rds depending on caliber and the barrel will need to be fully cleaned with all fouling removed before they can treat the barrel.

 

[stiller]

Re: Any Melonite updates

READ THIS NOW!! Just because BAT has allowed their actions to be melonited, that does not mean any action can be. The process goes on at 950 degrees minimum. THAT WILL EFFECT THE TEMPER on most materials used for gun actions. It is close on 4140 for RC38, it is too hot for 416 if tempered at 700, it may work fine for 17-4PH if tempered at over 950. THIS IS POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS. Check with the action mfr before meloniting structural parts. Our 4140 bolts are done, but are reduced to the minimum temp they allow for the process and it is just at our tempering temperature. If MMI told you it is ok for action structural parts, they are talking out of place without manufacturer approval.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Very good points. I talked to Bruce at BAT about this process, for <span style="text-decoration: underline">his</span> reciever's he stated that as long as the temperature does not go above 950f that the process is fine for <span style="font-weight: bold">BAT</span> actions. I also talked to Joel at MMI. They have done 416 SS barrels without issue also. I have a BAT barreled action with a 416 SS Benchmark barrel. With the research i have done this setup is good to go for Nitride. As a responsible individual it would be a good idea to know the materials you are sending to be Nitrided and get the Manufacturers OK before committing to Nitride.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Joel Kendrick's 6x44 Benchrest rifle is 416R Stainless steel from Bartlein. </span>

 

[idahoshooter]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RWSGunsmithing</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: idahoshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody got a link for this stuff (the company that does it I mean)? Thanks.

http://mminitriding.com/applications.htm

Is this the place, I dont see melonite mentioned. </div></div>

Idahoshooter, That is the place I send my stuff to. They do a good job and stand behind there work as well. </div></div>

Thank you much sir. Any personal experience with extended barrel life?

 

[monteboy84]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grounds Keeper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As of last check, I was told that using it on actions was a no go, because the process altered their metalurgical properties too much. Made them too hard. </div></div>

It won't touch the metal properties if the temperature of the treatment process is below the temperature used during post-machining heat treatment of the action. The last time I spec'd nitride on a part at work, we tempered at 1300 F or so, and nitrided at 950 F.

Nitriding/melonite is for real, I really don't see any reason to ever blue a gun once everyone has their firearm nitriding process pinned down, it's THAT good. Typical bluing offers basically nothing in terms of corrosion resistance, versus nitriding which enhances corrosion resistance and surface lubricity.

Also keep in mind, on a nitrided action, even if the black color is rubbed through, the surface properties offered by nitride remain, just the same as a Glock with a lot of holster wear.

-matt

 

[JWV]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Anybody know the turn around time at MMI-Trutec. I figure this is a fairly quick process.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

i was quoted 1 week.

I got an e-mail from Joel Kendrick at MMI. Thought i would post it here as it is relevant to the process and questions regarding materials that are safe to Nitride.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Jesse,
Stiller is correct in his post, I have not processed 416 SS actions drawn back at 700ºF or will not process actions drawn back at this temperature.
416 barrel material is not drawn back at 700ºF but a much higher temperature above 1100ºF.
The 4140 bolt will draw back to RC 40 but BAT said this was not a problem. If you are not comfortable with this information please do not process. I have not advised anyone that I would process a Stiller action in SS material so I am not talking out of place. I have been processing 416R SS barrels for about 10 years.

Thanks,
Joel Kendrick</span>

 

[JWV]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Thanks MuleHunter

 

[C Snyder]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I will have to call Preston at Surgeon rifles and confirm that the treatment can be done to his actions. If this is a go, I can see no disadvantage to having this done to the whole rifle. When I talked to the genteman at MMI he stated a bunch of stuff way over my head of the properties when treating Stainless vs. cromemoly steels. (heat temp, time in the tank, penetration into the metal, ionic properties of the nitrite etc etc)

I did not get the impression they were simply giving me a sales pitch just to treat my action, and was very knowledgeable on the process and how it affects metallurgy. When I talked with him he new that the action was 4340 and the bolt 4140 and would be treated different than a stainless barrel.

I will do a little more investigating and let everyone know what I find out.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Any Melonite updates

save yourself the call, my entire Surgeon 243 was just nitrided by them with no issues what so ever, I will post pics after I get it back from the smith

 

[JWV]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I am having my barrel,bolt, and savage 110 action done after all the machining work is completed.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Im waiting on Seekins to send me my DBM so i can mil the reciever and send it out to be Nitrided. The anticipation is killing me. Last piece of the puzzle

 

[JamieD]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Tag,

JamieD

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Any Melonite updates

bump

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Mailed my stuff off Friday. Patiently waiting.....updates soon.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Anyone have any experience with PVD vs. SBN (Melonite) for a barrel application?
Anyone have any experience with HEF? (The company)

 

[steve123]

Re: Any Melonite updates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have AR's with Melonite coating inside and out. I love it for the durability but the barrels work loose on some if they're "completely" coated. I guess it's just that slick! </div></div>

How does an AR barrel work loose when there is a gas tube run thru the teeth on the barrel nut to keep it from happening ?
</div></div>Not all barrel nuts or handguard assys are the same, but I will say this...the barrel nut on an AR would have to back out far enough to allow the barrel to disengage from it's indexing pin in order to twist free of the receiver.

If someone is shooting an AR with the barrel nut backed off that far and didn't know it, they shouldn't be any where hear a firearm, or anything electrical, or sharp objects for that matter. </div></div>

I just got back to reading this thread.

LOL,you have a good sense of humor.

Long story short.At the time I made this post I didn't fully understand how the barrel nut,pin and barrel extension worked.What had actually happened to my AR upper was the barrel had loosened from the barrel extension.That's why I could turn the barrel.I sent it back to the gunsmith.He torqued to spec and used loctite this time.

I think I'll try the melonite for my next barrel.

It might not be a bad idea for a group buy concerning this.

Steve

 

[Emouse]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Melonite/tenifer,...same stuff. Salt Bath Nitriding is falling away to other nitriding process. We are today Ion Nitriding a Surgeon action and cut rifled 416 SS barrel.

The only issues foreseen are that the chromemoly receiver will not match the stainless in colour shade and that the surgeon will have been tempered originally to a lower temp than the nitriding process. In theory we are in fact hardening the action throughout to a slightly higher spec. The Ion Nitride process takes temps up to 500 celcius max and gently cools after. I don't belive that this is sufficiently over the temper temp to matter or make the action brittle? There shouldn't be any warp as the action is in manufacture stress relieved and the nitriding induces no stress!

 

[Emouse]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Final finish is superb,...rifle shoots a dream too!

 

[wadebrown]

Re: Any Melonite updates

I got my 6mm BR and 338 Edge back from MMI Trutec last week and the finish is a beautiful matt black and I verified that the 6mm shoots.

I fired 10 shots through the 6 mm BR before sending it off hoping to clean the throat up a bit. Before shipping the barrel off I cleaned it with a couple of rounds of One Shot. I fired about 100 more rounds this week and decided I would clean to see if there was any copper. I could not find any copper on the patches, I usually see a little hint of copper when I clean my Brux until about 200 rounds, but this treated Brux has no copper hints at all.

The accuracy seems to be good load development was extremely easy, the ladder test showed me the broadest sweet spot I have ever seen. I loaded up 22 rounds in the middle of the sweet spot with 3 different seating depths and shot an F-class target at 300 yards. For each seating depth I dropped one point for each 20 round relay, so I am happy with the accuracy of the 6.

wade

 

[USMCj]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Wish I had done this to my 7WSM barrel! The throat has advanced far enough where Ill need to set it back before sending it out now. DAMN IT!!!!

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Anyone on the west coast use Burlington Eng. in So Cal?

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Any Melonite updates

Just got a call from Susan at MMI-Trutec. She said it turned out "beautiful". They are shipping it today. I should have it by Monday. It's going to be a long weekend!