Any regret buying an alpha scope?

[jzerfoss]

I encourage everyone that is nervous about "regretting" an alpha scope purchase to just do it. You will either love it, or realize you can live without it. Your brain won't shut up until you try one, and no one likes living with regrets.

Years ago when the ATACR 5-25 came out, I traded up from a Kahles K624 to the 5-25 ATACR to a S&B 5-20US, but finally settled on a 4-16 ATACR with $1000+ back in my pocket. I also tried a S&B 5-25 in this time. I discovered that while I certainly prefer the Kahles and S&B US when it comes to glass and package, the NF 4-16 did everything I wanted well enough at a price point ($1800 used each) that I was more than satisfied with.

Did I regret trying the Alpha glass at the time? No, because I gained knowledge. Would I buy a ZCO or another S&B US if I had excess funds just to punch steel and furbearers? Absolutely, but it isn't because of a need or belief that it will help my hit %.

Edit to add: As a NF fanboi with 3 of their optics, lol @ NF being called alpha glass. The ATACR line is like Tier 1.5 in my book.

I would definitely add the 7-35 ATACR is a step above the "US" ATACR line in glass. Having owned a sample size of 4 7-35s, 3 4-16s, 1 4-20 and looked through plenty of 5-25s I have a decent amount of experience with them.

 

[rothgyr]

I know that I'm not getting close to an "alpha" optic at my price point, so I'll GBPSE. However (other features excluded), when I had my buddy's 5-25 S&B next to my US made XTR III 5.5-30...there wasn't enough difference (again, in glass) to make me feel like I was just being poor by spending $3K less.

I remember back when I was just getting into long range shooting, I had an Athlon Ares ETR and loved it. I looked through a Tangent Theta around then and couldn't tell a real difference.

Five years and ten higher tier scopes later, you bet your arse I'd see a difference, and in several areas. If you don't know what to look for, I can see where it'd be hard to differentiate between a $4k+ scope and a low-mid tier scope.

 

[Glassaholic]

The law of diminishing returns seems to apply to scopes as much as anything else.

"For sure and for certain" - 10 points to anyone who can identify the movie that's from (and from memory, not a web search)

And a lot of the scopes these days are really good - the scope world has improved dramatically since I first got in the sport. A lot more bang for your buck in today's world of scopes.

Agreed

I'm very much a value shopper these days. Haven't bought a scope in years (haven't "needed" too), but when buying a set of 10x bino's for hunting, I opted for Kowa Genesis 10.5x44's over paying more than double for an equivalent Swaro. I want good optics, but I'll settle with "alpha minus" if it means I can save a few grand.

I have bought two sets of Kowa's past couple months (BD II 6.5x32 and Genesis 10x33), think I'll buy another if there's a good sale this weekend, they are super impressive for the price.

 

[Glassaholic]

I remember back when I was just getting into long range shooting, I had an Athlon Ares ETR and loved it. I looked through a Tangent Theta around then and couldn't tell a real difference.

Five years and ten higher tier scopes later, you bet your arse I'd see a difference, and in several areas. If you don't know what to look for, I can see where it'd be hard to differentiate between a $4k+ scope and a low-mid tier scope.

You make a good point roth, looking through a buddies scope at the range that is not setup for you can be a very different experience than using the scope day in and day out, in harsh conditions, in low light, etc. TT ain't all roses either, set your rifle down towards the setting sun and fighting the ghastly flare at just the right angle will have you mumbling a few words under your breath (some louder than others)

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have more scopes than I ever thought I would. I have 6 alpha level scopes 3 what I would call mid level on some lower end and AR dedicated optics. Yes I can tell the difference and depending on your need yes the alpha level are worth it.

 

[Scopeye]

"For sure and for certain" - 10 points to anyone who can identify the movie that's from (and from memory, not a web search)

Agreed

I have bought two sets of Kowa's past couple months (BD II 6.5x32 and Genesis 10x33), think I'll buy another if there's a good sale this weekend, they are super impressive for the price.

B&H currently has some sales on Kowas and Optics Planet has the BDII XD 10x for a good Bonus Bucks type (store credit) rebate and an easily obtainable 10% off discount code by using their chat and asking for it and also request a price quote for better prices which they can actually do and see if it's better than 10% off but I'd recommend checking with Scott @ Liberty for better "deals" before buying.

 

[kthomas]

B&H currently has some sales on Kowas and Optics Planet has the BDII XD 10x for a good Bonus Bucks type (store credit) rebate and an easily obtainable 10% off discount code by using their chat and asking for it and also request a price quote for better prices which they can actually do and see if it's better than 10% off but I'd recommend checking with Scott @ Liberty for better "deals" before buying.

@gr8fuldoug at CameraLandNY has regular deals on Kowa. I bought my Kowa Genesis 10.5x44 from them on an open box deal for just under a grand. Really great deal on a great set of bino's.

 

[Glassaholic]

^^^ Liberty and Cameralandny are THE places for Kowa, and for almost anything else they sell, guessing they'll both have some big sales this weekend for Independence Day.

 

[diggler1833]

I remember back when I was just getting into long range shooting, I had an Athlon Ares ETR and loved it. I looked through a Tangent Theta around then and couldn't tell a real difference.

Five years and ten higher tier scopes later, you bet your arse I'd see a difference, and in several areas. If you don't know what to look for, I can see where it'd be hard to differentiate between a $4k+ scope and a low-mid tier scope.

100% don't doubt it. I think the questions that most of us who are on the fence are always trying to ask ourselves is that is it necessary for what we're doing / it is a need, or want? Certainly intended purpose will come into play here.

Rarely is that question answered with data...just a bunch of us throwing out anecdotal evidence. I see plenty of arguments over which $4K scope offers a better image too.

I started thermal hunting with a 384 unit. There damn sure is a difference with my 640 unit in image quality... However, the resolution boost never helped me kill anything better. Yet it sure helped PID at an extra 1-200 yards away, and that is a huge plus. So I see your position.

 

[jmw]

You will find that no scope or rifle does it all. There is a correct tool for the job you're doing depending on what that job is. I have found, through trial and error, that I prefer hunting with a SFP scope by a country mile rather than the constant cursing of using a FFP scope on low power in the woods. I even hunt from a woods deer stand with a .444 or .35 lever gun and iron sights, because it simply is easier and works better than messing with a scope when you know the shot will be <100 yards. Just no point in putting yourself at a disadvantage.
This from someone who bow hunts more than rifle hunts these days.

I would try dissuade any hunter not shooting on open plains from a FFP hunting scope. If you're dialing you can still shoot a SFP scope to 1000 yards almost as easily, you just can't use the reticle and hold-over at long range. That big 'ol reticle at close range is invaluable to me, and lets me take an accurate shot while I'm glassing through the scope on low power without fiddling with it and missing an opportunity.

I have went back to sfp scopes on all my hunting rifles. I just can’t see the reticles on ffp scopes on low power. The vast majority of my hunting shots I need not hold any wind and when I do I have the magnification turned up all the way and can use the reticle. Still have ffp on all my play guns though. I have had most of the scopes talked about here except TT, to me for what you can buy a used minox zp5 for it is the best money you could spend. It is still my favorite scope

 

[stanley_white]

Dom Perignon scope with Natural Light shooting skills.



-Stan

 

[Taylorbok]

Apex is currently having a sale 20% off in stock optics. I know their 3-15 is still a pre order but if you were considering the Rival now would be a good time to buy

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Help!

Have ZCO527 currently on ATX

Want a spuhr QD mount with a shorty of some kind for thermal/night ish.
Do I mate it with the TT315 Gen2XR (just wish it had a tad more mag); or the new S&B 5-20's with DTII+ turrets and likely the P4FL, not sold really on MSR2?

Any first hand knowledge of optical roadblocks with SB520 line (finicky parallax or whatever - would rather have the TT315 just worried I will be angry cuz I got a thermal thats supposed to be able to use 20x, 1000yd shots....will the 315 limit the [system] at range? Things I know there is no real answer to other than to have both side by side and using in the field a couple times....just hoping someone out there ran into a similar fork in the road and has some knowledge to shed for me before I sell my house to fund my growing addiction

 

[Islas82]

Help!

Have ZCO527 currently on ATX

Want a spuhr QD mount with a shorty of some kind for thermal/night ish.
Do I mate it with the TT315 Gen2XR (just wish it had a tad more mag); or the new S&B 5-20's with DTII+ turrets and likely the P4FL, not sold really on MSR2?

Any first hand knowledge of optical roadblocks with SB520 line (finicky parallax or whatever - would rather have the TT315 just worried I will be angry cuz I got a thermal thats supposed to be able to use 20x, 1000yd shots....will the 315 limit the [system] at range? Things I know there is no real answer to other than to have both side by side and using in the field a couple times....just hoping someone out there ran into a similar fork in the road and has some knowledge to shed for me before I sell my house to fund my growing addiction

Zco 420? Nice and compact.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Conisseur vs Fanboy! Honestly that was my first thought too, but I dont want (first) 2 alpha scopes from same company. The tooless zeroing (very handy I imagine when you are switching barrels, calibers etc day to night in a weekend comp. or just wherever I find myself that day lol)and turrets of TT are really what Im after.

Then started leaning into the March FX 4.5-28 with shuriken....but hate that the turrets rise vertically with dialing and finish just isn't there for me yet as a package but I do like their TR-1 reticle.

Then came across the SB 5-20 new line with MTC clicks, DTII+ turrets and reworked illum into parallax; shortest of them all, no weight issue, but Im not in love with any of the reticle offerings Id prolly choose the P4FL, but now Im learning SB doesn't offer non capped windage turrets on this particular line (why they do in the 5-25....life) and then I circle back to having the 2 set screw turret zeroing which none of these are deal breakers Im just not sold on any route so far.

Id like to have a showroom where I could physically compare high end scopes of my choosing before dropping another kidney - so attempting to see if anybody else has resolved this rubiks cube lol (@koshkin)(@Glassaholic) .

*I like to think id sell the ZCO527 for the new TT735 and then get the ZCO420 for shorty shit....but idk at that point I might as well just forget bout scopes (keep 527) and switch to the new model thermal with parallax/focus knob closer to shooter vs the gen I have that sits forward too far to manipulate prone with a 25x+scope.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I saw @Lowlight trolling the 'for sale scopes' (either a 3-20 or 5-20 SB) saying essentially "dont tempt me!" and it does look like thats what he put on his new Sako so maybe Frank has a knowledge nugget to sway me into the SB ultra short arena...

#wreckless (I entered convo ready to drop 5k; now Imma leave convo ready to drop 15k on an AXSR/scope) lol

 

[Bakwa]

I know I'm late to this party, but I feel the need to add.

I'm not a rich man, but I will always have at least one or two high end optics on hand. Admittedly I've bought and sold a number of them to find out what I really like and what features I value. Right now I have a ZCO and a few NF's. I will always have a ZCO, and will likely have more as I can afford them.

Once you get into high end optics and use them in the environments which they shine over cheaper options, you'll always feel the lacking when you use anything but.

 

[Matt ironwood]

Help!

Have ZCO527 currently on ATX

Want a spuhr QD mount with a shorty of some kind for thermal/night ish.
Do I mate it with the TT315 Gen2XR (just wish it had a tad more mag); or the new S&B 5-20's with DTII+ turrets and likely the P4FL, not sold really on MSR2?

Any first hand knowledge of optical roadblocks with SB520 line (finicky parallax or whatever - would rather have the TT315 just worried I will be angry cuz I got a thermal thats supposed to be able to use 20x, 1000yd shots....will the 315 limit the [system] at range? Things I know there is no real answer to other than to have both side by side and using in the field a couple times....just hoping someone out there ran into a similar fork in the road and has some knowledge to shed for me before I sell my house to fund my growing addiction

I swapped my Schmidt bender classic thinking I was upgrading to a tt315. I dislike the unmarked parallax, I hate the turret adjustment, on the tt315. The glass and everything on the classic is awesome, shocked as I paid 1/3 for the sb classic.

I do love shooting with my nightforce atacr, the glass is not as good as a Schmidt bender or the tt. But if u don’t have them next to them, or trying to shoot in shadows of low light, u will not miss the better glass.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I'm not a rich man, but . . . Right now I have a ZCO and a few NF's. I will always have a ZCO, and will likely have more as I can afford them.

You're rich.

 

[CSTactical]

Zco 420? Nice and compact.

I mean, it's one of the best scopes for what @TheOtherAndrew is trying to accomplish... From one of our customers who's main market is on NV and Thermal, they absolutely love the ZC420.

 

[Lowlight]

I love my ZCo but I do run S&B ultra shorts a lot. I like some of their turrets and I do like the new style too

Always been an S&B fan, the prices today make me look at used ones more than new.

If I am buying new ZCo would be my first choice. At this point it comes down to budget, if it’s in the budget it’s a no brained

 

[YotaEer]

I mean, it's one of the best scopes for what @TheOtherAndrew is trying to accomplish... From one of our customers who's main market is on NV and Thermal, they absolutely love the ZC420.

View attachment 8207422
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That rifle setup is worth more than the GDP of a small African nation, but its sitting in a pig tripod setup. SAD

While there's diminishing returns with Optics, there isn't with tripods. Go for RRS 11/10 times.

 

[Huskydriver]

The sb 520 i own are probably the last scopes I would ever part with. Such a badass scope under 11".

I agree new zco worth a look but I love the dtii+ SB turrets.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Thanks everybody for chiming in. I also have a LMT 6.5/.308 that has been feeling very depressed since I forced a Leupold 318
Tremor3 on top her lol - looking a lot like Ill just HAVE to go with the SB520 MSR2.

Last thing while we at it, Im planning to get the Spuhr rings with QD levers....do [we] have a consensus on whether the QD levers hold/return zero as well as the torqued 4 bolt versions? I already feel the stupidity of the question, but hey consider the source!

 

[Huskydriver]

Thanks everybody for chiming in. I also have a LMT 6.5/.308 that has been feeling very depressed since I forced a Leupold 318
Tremor3 on top her lol - looking a lot like Ill just HAVE to go with the SB520 MSR2.

Last thing while we at it, Im planning to get the Spuhr rings with QD levers....do [we] have a consensus on whether the QD levers hold/return zero as well as the torqued 4 bolt versions? I already feel the stupidity of the question, but hey consider the source!

The 520 ultra short will only fit in the 4636 sphur mount due to how short the bearing surface is of the scope body around the erector housing and I don't think they offer it in a qd

 

[TheOE800]

Pretty sure ye standard gasser Badger C1 fits the 520US.

My only regret of buying an alpha scope is the multiple empty Tangent Theta boxes I’m forced to stare at that could have put my children through college.

 

[chevy_man]

My only problem once I crested the $2k mark is I can't get back under it.

 

[R_A_W]

Bump up or drop down.

I’m a former NF fanboy that currently owns multiple NF optics (only 1 ATACR) & I readily agree w/ the others that 1) NF pricing is dumb and 2) the ATACR scopes are not true alpha-tier optics. If I were purchasing again, I’d either bump up to a ZCO or save some money and get a G3 Razor. NF has a problem on their hands… ZCO and the G3 Razor have pretty much obviated NF ATACRs. That being said, the 4-16 ATACR would be pretty good for your needs, but make sure you aren’t paying full sticker if that’s the way you go.

I had a few other thoughts, but many good responses in here, best luck

 

[R_A_W]

My only problem once I crested the $2k mark is I can't get back under it.

Shot an XTR Pro or even an XTR3? For the money you'll be surprised at the optical quality

 

[Glassaholic]

The 520 ultra short will only fit in the 4636 sphur mount due to how short the bearing surface is of the scope body around the erector housing and I don't think they offer it in a qd

Doesn't the new US 5-20 with LPI fix the short bearing surface issue somewhat? A regular Spuhr with QD should work I would think, as long as the 520 is the LPI, if the old version with the tumor then yes, limited in mount options.

Thanks everybody for chiming in. I also have a LMT 6.5/.308 that has been feeling very depressed since I forced a Leupold 318
Tremor3 on top her lol - looking a lot like Ill just HAVE to go with the SB520 MSR2.

Last thing while we at it, Im planning to get the Spuhr rings with QD levers....do [we] have a consensus on whether the QD levers hold/return zero as well as the torqued 4 bolt versions? I already feel the stupidity of the question, but hey consider the source!

The 5-20 is my favorite ultra short, I think it is better optically than the 3-20 to be honest. It is a very forgiving design for an ultra short. ZCO 4-20 is the best ultra short there is optically, but DT II+ turrets are better than ZCO turrets IMO (subjective). If I were choosing I would go with the reticle I preferred unless there was some other criteria driving your decision.

 

[Huskydriver]

Doesn't the new US 5-20 with LPI fix the short bearing surface issue somewhat? A regular Spuhr with QD should work I would think, as long as the 520 is the LPI, if the old version with the tumor then yes, limited in mount options.



The 5-20 is my favorite ultra short, I think it is better optically than the 3-20 to be honest. It is a very forgiving design for an ultra short. ZCO 4-20 is the best ultra short there is optically, but DT II+ turrets are better than ZCO turrets IMO (subjective). If I were choosing I would go with the reticle I preferred unless there was some other criteria driving your decision.

I would think so if the 520 us with lpi have landed... Honestly haven't checked

 

[chevy_man]

Shot an XTR Pro or even an XTR3? For the money you'll be surprised at the optical quality

No. There aren't any stores that carry them, nor have I ever seen one in the wild.
So I'm not all that fond of ordering one, realizing I really don't like the reticle, and returning it.


I have seen the xtrII. I'll spend the extra, wasn't thrilled with the glass.

 

[R_A_W]

Yeah, not advocating you just go out and buy one... but if you ever see one, definitely bother the owner to look through it. The SCR2 is a fairly good reticle too, although the Xmas tree subtensions need a little more width to them. 1 Mil width for the first 2 mils of the Xmas tree isn't wide enough to dial for one target & then hold for a second further target, IMO. Compare to a Tremor3/5 or Mil-XT (MPCT2 falls short here).

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Doesn't the new US 5-20 with LPI fix the short bearing surface issue somewhat? A regular Spuhr with QD should work I would think, as long as the 520 is the LPI, if the old version with the tumor then yes, limited in mount options.

Well the [person] (will remain nameless for now) at Scopelist checked and concluded same thing, QDP 4002 no reason it shouldn't fit the 520 (LPI, DTII+ Elev, DTII+ Wind) Im looking at.
--------------------
Just throwing it out there, ppl dont be fooled by Scopelists "% off" antics...EuroOptic has the professionals with the contacts and willingness to make a sale happen by doing very mundane, normal salesman type things; Scopelist never again after this last run around.

 

[TheOE800]

Well the [person] (will remain nameless for now) at Scopelist checked and concluded same thing, QDP 4002 no reason it shouldn't fit the 520 (LPI, DTII+ Elev, DTII+ Wind) Im looking at.
--------------------
Just throwing it out there, ppl dont be fooled by Scopelists "% off" antics...EuroOptic has the professionals with the contacts and willingness to make a sale happen by doing very mundane, normal salesman type things; Scopelist never again after this last run around.

It’s the same people though.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Then use Scopelist meng. Just had a really douche baggy wannabe salesperson thru Scopelist. Went over to EuroOptic and issue was solved in 1 minute. Imma try live and let live a tad and not go into details; either heed the advice or dont

I know Scopelist essentially uses EuroOptics systems and the employees may have internal communication but 2 diff physical locations, Id be surprised if they have dual employment with each company and work for Euro M-W, then ScopeList Thu/Fr. Prolly best described as 2 different departments under same overarching umbrella, with all precedence given to Euro.

 

[Grubber]

I think it’s another cheaply made Chinese made scope.

 

[captain_toad]

This is less about the scope and more about you and finding your lane.

High-end guns and high-end scopes are similar in that they're extremely difficult to compare because no retailer carries everything you'd want to try, and if they did, they wouldn't let you mess with them. Reviews at the high end are always gushing puffery, so the only way to know is to buy.

My first scope was a ZCO 420. Everything else I've purchased since has been a lesser brand. When you do a side-by-side comparison, ZCO image quality and turrets are objectively better than my Steiner M- and T-series, Trijicon, Meopta, and S&B scopes.

Comparison is where things get funky, though, and we come around to objectivity's practical limitations. When it's scope vs. scope, differences, and seemingly choices, are fairly clear. However, when it's you and your gun vs. the target, the ZCO's measurable betterness has a fairly low probability of making a performance difference. It may, and it will sometimes, but it won't far more often.

Certain makes just look better to me, also. With ZCO, Meopta, or Steiner, I just see the image, but with Nightforce, Leupold, and Vortex scopes I always feel like I'm looking through glass, if that makes sense.

With scopes, there's a minimum threshold you should cross, but after that it's all up to your preference. The right zone for me as a well-trained, time-poor hobbyist is that Steiner T6Xi and competitors area.

Interestingly, I've reached a similar position on cars. In the mid-2010s, I decided I wanted a real sports car, so I first did several levels of racing school, then I test-drove everything under $150k: Audis, BMWs, Corvettes, etc. I ordered a '15 Cayman GTS, did PTS, Euro delivery, the whole thing. It's a perfect car in mountainous, maintained Europe, but it's absolute overkill used as a normal car in cratered, grid-street, F-150 Minnesota 98% of the time. Those 2% moments are glorious, but my next car will simply be "sporty".

 

[Ronin22]

I like to get a deal on a $1500 scope range, that makes it actual cost $900-1000 and these do all the Alphas do. Enough.

 

[C130]

I’m new to the long range game and just bought my rifle and scope about two months ago. I had planned on a NF ATACR as I had one on one of my AR’s. Dealer didn’t have one but had Leupold and one ZCO in stock. Long story short I looked at the Leupold then the ZCO. I bought the ZCO, I could definitely tell the difference. Saying that, at my level I knew I didn’t “need” the ZCO and it was hard to justify the price difference but I knew that’s what I wanted and I’d probably regret not getting it.

So, after a couple of months I can say that every time I shoot the gun I’m glad I got the ZCO. I’ve had a couple other people shoot it also and the first time they look through the ZCO they comment how great it is.

 

[Glassaholic]

I’m new to the long range game and just bought my rifle and scope about two months ago. I had planned on a NF ATACR as I had one on one of my AR’s. Dealer didn’t have one but had Leupold and one ZCO in stock. Long story short I looked at the Leupold then the ZCO. I bought the ZCO, I could definitely tell the difference. Saying that, at my level I knew I didn’t “need” the ZCO and it was hard to justify the price difference but I knew that’s what I wanted and I’d probably regret not getting it.

So, after a couple of months I can say that every time I shoot the gun I’m glad I got the ZCO. I’ve had a couple other people shoot it also and the first time they look through the ZCO they comment how great it is.

It's hard to quantify the ease of which to get behind a ZCO, few other scopes offer similar experience. I'd have another ZCO if they came out with the right reticle...

 

[R_A_W]

I'd have another ZCO if they came out with the right reticle...

What are your favorite retitles out there?

I like the looks of ZCO’s MPCT3x, but think it & the MPCT2 have Xmas trees they’re are just barely too narrow throughout the first few mils. I’ve never shot one though.

 

[rothgyr]

It's hard to quantify the ease of which to get behind a ZCO, few other scopes offer similar experience. I'd have another ZCO if they came out with the right reticle...

Primary reason I don't have a ZCO is reticle preferences. The day the put a JVCR/PR2/MIL-XT/SCR2-1/4 in one, I'll be looking at selling some stuff and putting one on order.

 

[Glassaholic]

What are your favorite retitles out there?

I like the looks of ZCO’s MPCT3x, but think it & the MPCT2 have Xmas trees they’re are just barely too narrow throughout the first few mils. I’ve never shot one though.

My favorite tree rets are the Gen3 XR and FML-TR1, runners up are Mil-XT and EBR-7d along with MR4. If you can detect a pattern here it is dots in the tree, not big circles or thick solid lines in the horizontal tree lines.

I’ve had the the MPCT2 and MPCT3x and found the thick solid lines in the tree to distract too much and the 3’s circles just made me dizzy This is absolutely personal preference as I prefer as uncluttered view as possible.

If i decide to go with another ZCO it'd be the 4-20 MPCT1