Gunsmithing Any thoughts on structured barrels?

[TriggerJerk!]

Saw this today and wondered if the engineers and gunsmiths on SH had any thoughts on the claims made concerning structured barrels in terms of rigidity, whip, and cooling?

Structured Barrels

tacomhq.com

So I don’t know the folks at this site, and I am not calling them out. Just wondering about the science behind the claims, and if it is worth the coin.

 

[GIXXER2000]

Robert Vestel uses then in some of his ELR builds. The cooling factor helps promote longer barrel life. I most likely will be using one on my next build for ELR... They have also won the King of 2 mile shoot.

 

[Wannashootit]

At first blush looks like the same objectives, with a different approach as the straightjacket system- which never was widely adopted.

Meh. Given the fact that I've been on this site for a decade and never heard it mentioned, is probably for a reason.

I know myself, and probably 99.9% of anyone driving a rifle couldn't shoot the difference between one of those and a "standard" Bartlein, etc. with all other variables being identical. I get how a miniscule improvement could factor to something measurable over a mile or more, but outside of that?

I tend to think that all the top tier barrel manufs would have created a better mousetrap- for a reasonable cost vs. benefit- if it were possible.



I didn't see weight mentioned anywhere...

 

[TriggerJerk!]

At first blush looks like the same objectives, with a different approach as the straightjacket system- which never was widely adopted.

Meh. Given the fact that I've been on this site for a decade and never heard it mentioned, is probably for a reason.

I know myself, and probably 99.9% of anyone driving a rifle couldn't shoot the difference between one of those and a "standard" Bartlein, etc. with all other variables being identical. I get how a miniscule improvement could factor to something measurable over a mile or more, but outside of that?

I tend to think that all the top tier barrel manufs would have created a better mousetrap- for a reasonable cost vs. benefit- if it were possible.



I didn't see weight mentioned anywhere...

That is pretty much what I concluded. From a structural point of view the claims seem valid, but I question the cost vs benefits over a regular Bartlein barrel. Further, a EC Barrel Tuner might be a better investment in the long run. But I do like seeing folks exploring new ideas.

 

[Southern Custom]

It’s a nifty idea and novel approach. But as others have said likely not worth the gains for the average shooter. From what I’ve researched the main benefit outside of cooling is the fact that it dampens harmonics and in doing so it shoots well with a huge variety of loads and very little poi shift from first round. Since most of us have our load dev down pat, and first round impacts are easily accounted for I just can’t see the addded expense. Longer barrel life could be a bonus as well. Bit it’s definitely cool too see people thinking outside the box.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Some of these concepts have been used in artillery and other barrels for a long time. Takes modern CNC machining (and probably CAD simulations) to develop the patterns and designs economically for sporting rifles.

All very cool stuff. Is it as “dead” as they claim? Interesting question. It can’t be 100 percent “dead” as there will always be some kind of harmonic. But is it dead enough for improving internal ballistics in small arms given weight, length, expected loads, etc? Probably.

I wonder... if you hung one from a wire and tapped it like a tuning fork... would it just go “thunk?” Or would it ring? And for how long? And at what frequency? A truly “dead” piece of metal would not ring at all, I don’t think. It would just thunk, absorb the energy of the tap instantly or nearly so... and not vibrate. All very interesting!

Cool thread. If I were building anything, I’d put one of those in just to play with it. It would be a neat exercise!

Sirhr

 

[brianf]

Along the cooling front...

Anyone in the hide do thermodynamics?

Would like to start with a hot barrel laying flat then a hot barrel positioned vertically with the chamber and muzzle open to ambient air.

I’d like to know if the limited convection caused by the barrel being vertical actually aids in the cooling or if the amount of air that passes naturally is insignificant?

Multiply that cooling effect by the amount on the structured barrel..

If there is limited if any increased cooling effect the juice isn’t worth the squeeze for cooling.

The “holes” on the outside of the barrel might not move enough air to make a difference.

(From my phone so might be some weird spelling)

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

IMO people get too wrapped up in "cooling" as if it is going to increase barrel life but there is just no way for that 1+1 to equal 3.
The flash ignition/detonation point in its' highest temp state at the chamber throat is what eats barrel life and no amount of external "cooling" is going to stop that.

The harmonic benefits could be a benefit but cannot be any different than timing the barrel and/or utilizing a barrel tuner.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

The flash ignition/detonation point in its' highest temp state at the chamber throat is what eats barrel life and no amount of external "cooling" is going to stop that.

I'm pretty sure the temperature rise in the throat is just too fast for any practical cooling system to keep up.

 

[mudpig]

some interesting info on topic

 

[...]

this made me chuckle...

essentially, "we are unable to calculate what(if any) effect this has, but we are going to claim it as a benefit"

........"theoretically"........

also...."supersonic microwave"?

....so the opposing holes "cancel out".....but dont you still have the original stress from the bore of the rifle?

....ok now they are just making up words....


when i see companies throwing out LOTS of engineering technical jargon in an attempt to make it look like their products are "better engineered".....my BS detector immediately starts jumping......most people arent engineers, and they know that, and it seems like they are trying to hide behind that technical jargon.

its like if your doctor came to you and said "we suspect you have Peripheral oedema brought on by protal hypertension"....and just walking out the door....you dont know what that means, your doctor knows you dont know what that means.....thats why your doctor is going to say "you have fat ankles because your liver is failing"

posting FEA calculations and cool gifs are essentially meaningless, sure it looks cool, and someone who doesnt have experience with FEA modeling will think "wow theyve done serious engineering"......but i dont know the parameters theyve set for the calculations. just like statistics, i can make FEA calcs reflect what i want them to.


not saying the barrels dont work....im just saying they probably dont work as well as they want you to believe.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@LongRifles Inc.
What in the world are they drilling the holes with?? That is crazy.
A Dehoff Gun Drill can do a tolerance of +/-.0005 straightness per inch and up to 80 inches in length.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi,

@LongRifles Inc.
What in the world are they drilling the holes with?? That is crazy.
A Dehoff Gun Drill can do a tolerance of +/-.0005 straightness per inch and up to 80 inches in length.

Sincerely,
Theis

But there are other ways to do it these days... EDM being among them.

I am not going to jump on the structured bandwagon and say it's all real vs. hocus pocus. But the principles have been used/tested/explored in large caliber stuff for a long time. There is a pony in there somewhere. But whether it can work in a sporting rifle barrel (ok... Small Arms Tactical rifle barrel) remains to be seen.

I'd like to think that there is something that will come of this. And loving innovation... I'd play just to try it out. If I were building anything.

Grain of salt? Yes. Panacea? No. Be-All-End-All? Definitely not. Possibilities? Absolutely.

Heck, caseless ammo has more advantages than one can shake a stick at. But noone can really make it work. Outside of small unit LRIP test stuff. That doesn't mean the concept is not good. Lots of things that start small... end up changing the game. Are structured barrels game changers? Personally, I think not. But that does not mean they are not interesting and worth exploring at the bleeding edge of our Tactical Precision Marksman Community.

I'd love to try one. Bet you would too? Bet our tests would be fun and notable. Hey, anyone want to send Me and Theis a couple of barrels to play with? I'd build a rifle around one just to say I was there at the beginning!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[flyright]

Reminds me of the turbo encabulator...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Before (or after) reading this quote from LRI, please read post #105 on Page three of this thread. It tells you what kind of a really honorable gentleman Chad from LongriflesInc. is. I leave up the quote only because it contributes to the discussion and helps people understand what EDM can and can't be used for. But you cannot read this quote and not read post 105. For it shows why some of the threads (and people) on SH are so world class.


Personally, I would rather grab a rusty razor and play in traffic than drill something that deep with an EDM. At .06" or so per minute feed rate you are going to be there a long, long time and these barrels would inflate by around 800% on the price. Not to mention you now have to figure out how to get coolant to flush the particulate out of the hole as the electrode plunges. That's going to be a royal CS because EDM's for this kind of work are typically using a graphite electrode and if you try to just drill through the center of the graphite, you will run into a whole new set of problems to solve. (what to do with the wire sticking out of the center of your part now being the most prevalent as you effectively just made a very small wine cork)

Remember, an EDM, regardless of type, never actually touches anything. If it does it shorts out, alarms, and you start over.

Not on my shortlist of things to do...

I don't disagree... EDM is not for deep drilling. But when I toured Ruger's NH plant with the late Bill Jr. a few years ago, he showed us the barrel production line. They were doing the rifling on barrels with EDM machines. The barrel blanks were traditionally-bored, but were finished with EDM, including rifling. So the technology does exist to do 'deep holes' even if only to true them.

A specialty shop that I sat on the board of had a wire EDM capable of doing deep cuts (had to have a hole to start with), though I don't think they were doing anything deeper than about 8"-12". That said, is wire EDM technology adaptable to 24 - 26"? I think it would be hard with tiny holes. Sorry I'm not up on state of the art. But there is some amazing stuff being done these days... not just with drills! But drills, going back decades, can put long, very straight holes in steel... if the technique is right, the bits are sharp and the machines are designed for it.

BTW, there's a great story from the early days of Ford Motor Co when they were still at the Piquette Plant. Ford called in designers from one of the big machine tool companies in Cleveland or Cincinnati and told them "I want you to build me 5 machines that will machine Model T engine blocks. They must be capable of drilling 80_ holes, simultaneously, from 6 directions." The experts from the machine tool companies retired to their offices/hotels, etc. and came back a couple of days later to tell Ford "We're sorry sir, but such a machine is not possible. We recommend that you use three machines, and here is how we would propose to build them and set them upl" Ford responded "You gentlemen must not have understood me. I have the machine running downstairs. I need you to make me 5 more of them." I'd have loved to be there when the news dropped. That's documented in Douglas Brinkley's Wheels for the World... and "Tin Lizzie" by Van Dorn Stern... That story and some of the films one sees of WW2 production (ie BAR's) one of the reasons I never count out what machinists and machines and ingenuity can do.

If you are ever in Vermontistan... or the Northeast... you should visit the Precision Museum in Windsor and the Springfield Armory National Historical Site in Ma. You would love it... the machines preserved and restored tell the entire story of the design of automation, precision and, more importantly, repeatability (the real trick!) and the machine tool industry. Incredible place!

Cheers and thanks for the input! Great insight!

Sirhr

 

[seanh]

Reminds me of the turbo encabulator...

That's some funny stuff right there. Play that video for the Geeks and they crack up. Play it for the everyday person and they don't get it

 

[1moaoff]

As many have stated.
Neat concept. But chambers and throats dying are more of in interest to me. If this was coupled with something like the replacement chambers or throats it could start to cost justify if you could get 10k on an elr setup.
Funny thing is it looks like a mini cannon barrel. So qould it be possible to build it vs machining it. Im sure it can't cost juatify but its all just slow innovation and testing for specifics anyway.

 

[seanh]

Don't know much about these, but did work with somebody that had one. Definitely has a dead/muted tone when struck. As far as Cooling, by far better than a standard Barrel. Wish I still had contact for him and I would go do some testing.

My understanding is there's three or four companies you can get a blank from to send to them. I would like to get one of the new longer life barrels from Frank at bartlein and see what they do.

 

[acudaowner]

guess you have to buy one and see if you like it or not
make your own review on your findings . what you liked and what you didn't if you find anything out good luck .

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm no scientist nor a gunsmith. I dabble, but that's neither of the former. Mainly, I have learned that my own brainstorms simply turn out to be more like reinventing the wheel, but sideways, and twice as tedious.

Reading through the article, trying to make sense of the video(s?); I must absolutlly admit that I am no smarter after that reading than before. No great loss, since it's me. Great tap dancing, though...

Looking at the design, it brings to mind the story of the Brits bringing over a Cavity Magnetron in early WWII, all fancy machining and all, and asking the US engineers to simplify the machining process. Short time later, they returned with a stack of disks, punched with relief holes in them, that was functionally identical when aligned correctly, but could be produced as disks on a stamping press.

Looking at that boring I cringe, and then I think about all those disks stacked right off the punch, and it looks damned similar to the photos of the chamber ends of those barrels.

Just an observation, and I'm no engineer... mind you...

Now I can't say yea or nay about the barrel design; but if I wanted to duplicate it, I'd give the Boys and Girls over at Raytheon R&D a call...

Greg

 

[LeftyJason]

Personally, I would rather grab a rusty razor and play in traffic than drill something that deep with an EDM. At .06" or so per minute feed rate you are going to be there a long, long time and these barrels would inflate by around 800% on the price. Not to mention you now have to figure out how to get coolant to flush the particulate out of the hole as the electrode plunges. That's going to be a royal CS because EDM's for this kind of work are typically using a graphite electrode and if you try to just drill through the center of the graphite, you will run into a whole new set of problems to solve. (what to do with the wire sticking out of the center of your part now being the most prevalent as you effectively just made a very small wine cork)

Remember, an EDM, regardless of type, never actually touches anything. If it does it shorts out, alarms, and you start over.

Not on my shortlist of things to do...

I don't disagree... EDM is not for deep drilling. But when I toured Ruger's NH plant with the late Bill Jr. a few years ago, he showed us the barrel production line. They were doing the rifling on barrels with EDM machines. The barrel blanks were traditionally-bored, but were finished with EDM, including rifling. So the technology does exist to do 'deep holes' even if only to true them.

A specialty shop that I sat on the board of had a wire EDM capable of doing deep cuts (had to have a hole to start with), though I don't think they were doing anything deeper than about 8"-12". That said, is wire EDM technology adaptable to 24 - 26"? I think it would be hard with tiny holes. Sorry I'm not up on state of the art. But there is some amazing stuff being done these days... not just with drills! But drills, going back decades, can put long, very straight holes in steel... if the technique is right, the bits are sharp and the machines are designed for it.

BTW, there's a great story from the early days of Ford Motor Co when they were still at the Piquette Plant. Ford called in designers from one of the big machine tool companies in Cleveland or Cincinnati and told them "I want you to build me 5 machines that will machine Model T engine blocks. They must be capable of drilling 80_ holes, simultaneously, from 6 directions." The experts from the machine tool companies retired to their offices/hotels, etc. and came back a couple of days later to tell Ford "We're sorry sir, but such a machine is not possible. We recommend that you use three machines, and here is how we would propose to build them and set them upl" Ford responded "You gentlemen must not have understood me. I have the machine running downstairs. I need you to make me 5 more of them." I'd have loved to be there when the news dropped. That's documented in Douglas Brinkley's Wheels for the World... and "Tin Lizzie" by Van Dorn Stern... That story and some of the films one sees of WW2 production (ie BAR's) one of the reasons I never count out what machinists and machines and ingenuity can do.

If you are ever in Vermontistan... or the Northeast... you should visit the Precision Museum in Windsor and the Springfield Armory National Historical Site in Ma. You would love it... the machines preserved and restored tell the entire story of the design of automation, precision and, more importantly, repeatability (the real trick!) and the machine tool industry. Incredible place!

Cheers and thanks for the input! Great insight!

Sirhr

At work we have a robot cell doing sinker edm work on inconel parts. Machined graphite electrodes with different ones for roughing and finishing. 30 holes at 6" or so each. Takes 5.5weeks running 24/7. Parts are stacked 10 high with 10 electrodes. Parts stacked 5 high take just as long. Edm doesn't take longer to run more holes at a time as long as you have the power.

Some of the best edms of all types are made by Makino. Not sure how to read actual cutting capacities on their machines.

U1310 | Makino

www.makino.com

Probably costs more than a million. And you can only run 1 at a time and it requires a hole to start with.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Just some pretty amazing old film of making BAR receivers and parts. Ever look at a BAR receiver? One of the most complicated internal machinings you can imagine!

All done with jigs and amazingly specific machines. Ramps, cams, fixtures, locks. If it needed to be made in 1942... it would be.

For a great book on some of the challenges overcome by WW2 production/machining geniuses, Richard Rhodes "Making of the Atomic Bomb" has some great sections about how they built the gas diffusion plants at Hanford. Stainless steel alloys had to be invented... microscopic holes/screens had to be created. Every problem... they dreamed something up. Tried it in a lab. Scaled it up. Incredible what one can make if you are fighting for the survival of the free world!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[alwaywatchyoursix]

Personally, I think the ideas and processes involved in those structured barrels are pretty cool. And the benchrest and ELR crowd might find them worthwhile. But unless they solve the issues of weight, size, and price, structured barrels will remain a niche product, regardless of how well they work.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

Some of these concepts have been used in artillery and other barrels for a long time. Takes modern CNC machining (and probably CAD simulations) to develop the patterns and designs economically for sporting rifles.

All very cool stuff. Is it as “dead” as they claim? Interesting question. It can’t be 100 percent “dead” as there will always be some kind of harmonic. But is it dead enough for improving internal ballistics in small arms given weight, length, expected loads, etc? Probably.

I wonder... if you hung one from a wire and tapped it like a tuning fork... would it just go “thunk?” Or would it ring? And for how long? And at what frequency? A truly “dead” piece of metal would not ring at all, I don’t think. It would just thunk, absorb the energy of the tap instantly or nearly so... and not vibrate. All very interesting!

Cool thread. If I were building anything, I’d put one of those in just to play with it. It would be a neat exercise!

Sirhr

@sirhrmechanic

Sorry for the delay. Been out on a job.

I like this line of though. It would be interesting to compare harmonic frequency between like barrels (how similar are they) both hanging and mounted (cantilevered). A before vs after comparison could also be incorporated, where a barrel would be tested before and after pattern engraving.

 

[TriggerJerk!]

This debate on the efficacy of structured barrels will only progress if data can be obtained. If someone gets their hands on one, I hope they will report their findings.

@THEIS hypothesized (rightly so) that a barrel tuner might be just as effective (and likely cheaper IMHO).

@sirhrmechanic added thoughts on how to characterize barrel stiffness or rigidity by measuring harmonics.

I believe the real question will concern whether this technology substantially increases accuracy and/or barrel life. If so, at what cost?

Fellow members, this has been an interesting discussion. My thanks to all that contributed.

 

[Mech Eng]

I remember this from a couple years ago and thought the concept was really cool. The barrel should be stiffer than a barrel of the same weight I would like to see the moment of inertia for this barrel vs a normal barrel. The threading on the out side will help with cooling but how much I can't say off the top of my head. Also the holes that run parallel to the bore will help cool the barrel if a negative pressure is produced at the muzzle end of the barrel but this cooling will be minimal at best. Now the vibrations of a barrel when fire will add heat to the barrel but you would have to test the amount of heat generated and that is some I don't want to pay for. I think because of the price this will be a niche barrel but I would like to independent testing done to see how it come pairs to a normal barrel.

 

[702lineman]

I believe it will be just a short time and barrels(along with many other things) will probably be 3d printed. Then this technology will be a lot easier to explore.

 

[fdkay]

Lothar walther used to catalog structured barrels, if I recall correctly, the sleeves were aluminum.
FWIW the new Springfield armory bolt gun can be had with a carbon fiber structured barrel

 

[__JR__]

Hi,

@LongRifles Inc.
What in the world are they drilling the holes with?? That is crazy.
A Dehoff Gun Drill can do a tolerance of +/-.0005 straightness per inch and up to 80 inches in length.

Sincerely,
Theis

So what do you think that means though? I know, you're just stating what they can do, but..

 

[__JR__]

Lothar walther used to catalog structured barrels, if I recall correctly, the sleeves were aluminum.
FWIW the new Springfield armory bolt gun can be had with a carbon fiber structured barrel

Sleeved aren't structured. Straightjacket aint sleeved.

 

[__JR__]

I remember this from a couple years ago and thought the concept was really cool. The barrel should be stiffer than a barrel of the same weight I would like to see the moment of inertia for this barrel vs a normal barrel. The threading on the out side will help with cooling but how much I can't say off the top of my head. Also the holes that run parallel to the bore will help cool the barrel if a negative pressure is produced at the muzzle end of the barrel but this cooling will be minimal at best. Now the vibrations of a barrel when fire will add heat to the barrel but you would have to test the amount of heat generated and that is some I don't want to pay for. I think because of the price this will be a niche barrel but I would like to independent testing done to see how it come pairs to a normal barrel.

You need to change your handle bra..

 

[Mech Eng]

You need to change your handle bra..

And why is that?

 

[__JR__]

And why is that?

BC if you are an ME and good at it you shouldn't be wondering so much.

later

 

[Mech Eng]

BC if you are an ME and good at it you shouldn't be wondering so much.

later

Well I happen to be a mechanical engineer and I don't pretend to know everything nor have I run any simulations on this barrel to see any numbers on it just making comments on basic engineering concepts that would apply.

 

[JHoff162]

It seems they are essentially increasing the diameter of the barrel and drilling axial holes to reduce weight. Then, by comparing the barrel to a solid barrel of similar weight, they are comparing 2 barrels with significantly different diameters. This will almost automatically mean the barrel with a larger diameter will be a stiffer barrel because as the barrel bends, it compresses axial on one side while putting the other in tension. The center remains essentially neutral. This physical property is well know and documented, there is a reason building codes dictate where you drill a hole in a stud for instance. Attached is a basic diagram of a beam, the stress is shown on the right side.

To summarize, the larger the barrel diameter, typically the more torsional rigidity it has. A structured barrel is the same idea as a sleeved barrel like Teludyne or even carbon fiber barrels. Increase diameter without increasing weight.

 

[fdkay]

Sleeved aren't structured. Straightjacket aint sleeved.

I was thinking of the tensioned barrels

 

[__JR__]

Well I happen to be a mechanical engineer and I don't pretend to know everything nor have I run any simulations on this barrel to see any numbers on it just making comments on basic engineering concepts that would apply.

One thing I did think about on this, way back when Lothar started sleeving steel barrels inside aluminum tubes. Use that room of the thin wall to dissipate or absorb the heat. While keeping ridgitity at the right spots. make the ally tube big where it needs to be, and tight where it needs to be. filler in the tween. Was just a thought.

Later

 

[__JR__]

One thing I did think about on this, way back when Lothar started sleeving steel barrels inside aluminum tubes. Use that room of the thin wall to dissipate or absorb the heat. While keeping ridgitity at the right spots. make the ally tube big where it needs to be, and tight where it needs to be. filler in the tween. Was just a thought.

Later

perhaps even use some of that room to spring or dampen or force.

 

[__JR__]

perhaps even use some of that room to spring or dampen or force.

Maybe even fill it with oil.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Cooling air is good. So, if air is good, why not move on to water. Water is a great conductor of heat (don’t believe me, try water skiing in January, even in a dry suit). We have the holes, all’s we need is the way to circulate the water, cool it and of course get The cooled water back to the barrel

Impractical, probably, but a water cooled barrel worked pretty good in WW1 when barrel steels were not nearly as good as what we have today. So, a small, water cooling pack, carried on one’s back with tubing running to and from the barrel “could” work.

Please understand, this is my tongue and cheek explanation. Yet in the future, all is possible.

 

[Mech Eng]

Reference to 702lineman's post.
Additive manufacturing will allow for probably be some of the best barrels made but that is a long way off. Because one of the largest issues with metal additive manufacturing is getting the material to be isotropic and with out defects. It can be done but I don't think it would be cost effective at this point. The best part of additive manufacturing is the weight saving that can be done. But I don't see that for another 10 years.

 

[John Baker]

this made me chuckle...

View attachment 7431381

essentially, "we are unable to calculate what(if any) effect this has, but we are going to claim it as a benefit"

View attachment 7431383

View attachment 7431385

........"theoretically"........

also...."supersonic microwave"?

View attachment 7431388
....so the opposing holes "cancel out".....but dont you still have the original stress from the bore of the rifle?
View attachment 7431389

View attachment 7431386

....ok now they are just making up words....


when i see companies throwing out LOTS of engineering technical jargon in an attempt to make it look like their products are "better engineered".....my BS detector immediately starts jumping......most people arent engineers, and they know that, and it seems like they are trying to hide behind that technical jargon.

its like if your doctor came to you and said "we suspect you have Peripheral oedema brought on by protal hypertension"....and just walking out the door....you dont know what that means, your doctor knows you dont know what that means.....thats why your doctor is going to say "you have fat ankles because your liver is failing"

posting FEA calculations and cool gifs are essentially meaningless, sure it looks cool, and someone who doesnt have experience with FEA modeling will think "wow theyve done serious engineering"......but i dont know the parameters theyve set for the calculations. just like statistics, i can make FEA calcs reflect what i want them to.


not saying the barrels dont work....im just saying they probably dont work as well as they want you to believe.

1) The FEA modeling you are referring to was done by a third party with absolutely no affiliation to TACOMHQ. Actually, it was a customer who had the modeling done. To NOTE: he did not believe it either. We had a pessimistic 3rd party do the testing. So please don't accuse us of manipulating data. The modeling firm... is an aeronautical firm specializing in structural failure and crash analysis for aircraft.
2) "Probably don't work" - that is some precise engineering jargon too. Have you shot one? Tested one? Know anybody who has? "Probably" is worthless as you have zero experience or data.
3) Tension and compression- are you arguing that as a tube is bent one side does not go into compression and the other tension? Are you arguing that as the barrel goes into a complex sinosoidal like whip (engineering jargon) that... what...? Tension and compression don't exist? Whip doesn't exist?
Please explain that comment for all of us to understand.
I have had a quite a number of people argue no gain can be had in stiffness of our barrel compared to a solid barrel. I have passed there comments on to structural engineers telling them to return to solid round rods even eliminated shapes as simple as I-beam that they are wasting their time ... Once you prove that the tension-compression component does not exist in a barrel I will pass that on too.
4) Interestingly every single person who has shot our barrel notes a reduced felt recoil. Is it because we have put a "hex" on them? Brainwashed the multiple shooters into believing the gun has less recoil?
5) Let's say we are exaggerating about the recoil event quite as much as you imply: Please explain if the reduced felt recoil is not from the reduced barrel harmonic then what is it? This "phenomena" has been noted on 6mm to .416 Barretts.
6) I will keep in mind that sand blasting does not increase surface area and increase cooling effect. I guess our couple of thousand temperature measurements were "faulty". To note our "faulty" data has noted a positive value every time we have tested polished vs sand blasted.
7) Laying out barrels of similar mass in the sun and heat soaking them for a couple of hours and then putting them back in the shade and plotting time versus temp is ... what?
8) On a 70deg day I can shoot our Norma or .375 10's of rounds past a standard barrel before it even approaches the heat of a standard barrel. I guess consistent SD's, less group migration, smaller group size has no place on this forum. By the way that's all 3rd party testing not TACOMHQ.
I guess the "BS" meter extends to multiple parties beyond TACOMHQ.
9) We had a top F1 team shoot a couple of months ago. Our guns are chassis and not the typical stocks they shoot so they were not comfortable shooting our systems- in fact they shot without the cheek comb in place.
Fact: (or voodoo): side by side weight for weight, caliber specific- our guns exhibit less felt recoil.
Fact: We let them run our 300 Norma. 168gr Sierras at 3,400fps, 190gr Sierras 3100fps, 230gr Bergers 2950fps.
16 rounds of the 230gr Bergers were sub 3/8moa with three shooters. Same point of impact/dot.
4 rounds of the 168 and 4 rounds of the 190 shot 1/4 to 3/8 groups - one long hole 1/2" tall - with a 3/8" shift total left to right from the 230's.
That is not a .5gr change powder ladder test.
How many rounds can your 300 caliber rifle put out to sub 3/8" groups? We test 20-50 round groups.
Can you pick your rifle up by the barrel after 15+ rounds? Here's a concept - reduced barrel mirage. Now that's voodoo.
They also bore scoped the barrels... perhaps their interpretation of the low fire cracking, lack of erosion... was...
Well we will see... they immediately bought barrels. I guess multiple calibers shot by multiple 3rd party are under what kind of illusion?

I agree this is not for every shooter. Most hunters fall outside the gains shown. Price. I don't expect a Malibu to outrun a Z06. Ultra light weight- carbon fiber for sure. If you are at the top of a sport (choose one) and you obtain a 10% gain: What is that worth?
However, commenting on something in which you have zero experience with and calling BS is a pretty big exercise in .... well ... BS.
When comments reach out to the "edge" I find it just as amusing to push the "edge" back a bit.
Now where is my magic wand, I have a series of barrels in process. I need to hex all of those customers into altering their data to make us look good. Darn- I left my Dominion machine at home.

 

[308pirate]

this made me chuckle...

View attachment 7431381

essentially, "we are unable to calculate what(if any) effect this has, but we are going to claim it as a benefit"

View attachment 7431383

View attachment 7431385

........"theoretically"........

also...."supersonic microwave"?

View attachment 7431388
....so the opposing holes "cancel out".....but dont you still have the original stress from the bore of the rifle?
View attachment 7431389

View attachment 7431386

....ok now they are just making up words....


when i see companies throwing out LOTS of engineering technical jargon in an attempt to make it look like their products are "better engineered".....my BS detector immediately starts jumping......most people arent engineers, and they know that, and it seems like they are trying to hide behind that technical jargon.

its like if your doctor came to you and said "we suspect you have Peripheral oedema brought on by protal hypertension"....and just walking out the door....you dont know what that means, your doctor knows you dont know what that means.....thats why your doctor is going to say "you have fat ankles because your liver is failing"

posting FEA calculations and cool gifs are essentially meaningless, sure it looks cool, and someone who doesnt have experience with FEA modeling will think "wow theyve done serious engineering"......but i dont know the parameters theyve set for the calculations. just like statistics, i can make FEA calcs reflect what i want them to.


not saying the barrels dont work....im just saying they probably dont work as well as they want you to believe.

 

[...]

1) The FEA modeling you are referring to was done by a third party with absolutely no affiliation to TACOMHQ. Actually, it was a customer who had the modeling done. To NOTE: he did not believe it either. We had a pessimistic 3rd party do the testing. So please don't accuse us of manipulating data. The modeling firm... is an aeronautical firm specializing in structural failure and crash analysis for aircraft.
2) "Probably don't work" - that is some precise engineering jargon too. Have you shot one? Tested one? Know anybody who has? "Probably" is worthless as you have zero experience or data.
3) Tension and compression- are you arguing that as a tube is bent one side does not go into compression and the other tension? Are you arguing that as the barrel goes into a complex sinosoidal like whip (engineering jargon) that... what...? Tension and compression don't exist? Whip doesn't exist?
Please explain that comment for all of us to understand.
I have had a quite a number of people argue no gain can be had in stiffness of our barrel compared to a solid barrel. I have passed there comments on to structural engineers telling them to return to solid round rods even eliminated shapes as simple as I-beam that they are wasting their time ... Once you prove that the tension-compression component does not exist in a barrel I will pass that on too.
4) Interestingly every single person who has shot our barrel notes a reduced felt recoil. Is it because we have put a "hex" on them? Brainwashed the multiple shooters into believing the gun has less recoil?
5) Let's say we are exaggerating about the recoil event quite as much as you imply: Please explain if the reduced felt recoil is not from the reduced barrel harmonic then what is it? This "phenomena" has been noted on 6mm to .416 Barretts.
6) I will keep in mind that sand blasting does not increase surface area and increase cooling effect. I guess our couple of thousand temperature measurements were "faulty". To note our "faulty" data has noted a positive value every time we have tested polished vs sand blasted.
7) Laying out barrels of similar mass in the sun and heat soaking them for a couple of hours and then putting them back in the shade and plotting time versus temp is ... what?
8) On a 70deg day I can shoot our Norma or .375 10's of rounds past a standard barrel before it even approaches the heat of a standard barrel. I guess consistent SD's, less group migration, smaller group size has no place on this forum. By the way that's all 3rd party testing not TACOMHQ.
I guess the "BS" meter extends to multiple parties beyond TACOMHQ.
9) We had a top F1 team shoot a couple of months ago. Our guns are chassis and not the typical stocks they shoot so they were not comfortable shooting our systems- in fact they shot without the cheek comb in place.
Fact: (or voodoo): side by side weight for weight, caliber specific- our guns exhibit less felt recoil.
Fact: We let them run our 300 Norma. 168gr Sierras at 3,400fps, 190gr Sierras 3100fps, 230gr Bergers 2950fps.
16 rounds of the 230gr Bergers were sub 3/8moa with three shooters. Same point of impact/dot.
4 rounds of the 168 and 4 rounds of the 190 shot 1/4 to 3/8 groups - one long hole 1/2" tall - with a 3/8" shift total left to right from the 230's.
That is not a .5gr change powder ladder test.
How many rounds can your 300 caliber rifle put out to sub 3/8" groups? We test 20-50 round groups.
Can you pick your rifle up by the barrel after 15+ rounds? Here's a concept - reduced barrel mirage. Now that's voodoo.
They also bore scoped the barrels... perhaps their interpretation of the low fire cracking, lack of erosion... was...
Well we will see... they immediately bought barrels. I guess multiple calibers shot by multiple 3rd party are under what kind of illusion?

I agree this is not for every shooter. Most hunters fall outside the gains shown. Price. I don't expect a Malibu to outrun a Z06. Ultra light weight- carbon fiber for sure. If you are at the top of a sport (choose one) and you obtain a 10% gain: What is that worth?
However, commenting on something in which you have zero experience with and calling BS is a pretty big exercise in .... well ... BS.
When comments reach out to the "edge" I find it just as amusing to push the "edge" back a bit.
Now where is my magic wand, I have a series of barrels in process. I need to hex all of those customers into altering their data to make us look good. Darn- I left my Dominion machine at home.

ok....but can you tell me what a "supersonic microwave" is?.....and how does that differ from a "regular microwave"?

 

[John Baker]

/\ Amen

"Facts, without them, you have an opinion."

My absolute favorite quote of all time.


What I find interesting in all of this (after having a few of them in here) is the ridiculous number of failures it takes to produce a "good" one. I have no way of verifying it, but sources have said they burn through 3 or 4 barrels before they get one that's right.

Right simply means the drill didn't wander its way into the bore or out the side of the thing.

The lesson here is the best engineer in the world is about like tits on a pig if he can't make a part.

Not the best business model. . .

Long and short: Nobody ever gets to lecture a gunsmith about fluting a barrel or say the word "harmonic" ever again, lol.

Who are you? (after having a few of them here)
Only one Gunsmith has had several of them and we certainly have not had any discussions of failures.
Sources? Then your sources are absolutely fabricating a falsehood for some other personal gain. Please share them with us so we can contact them and have a professional discussion.
We did ruin about 10 barrels in overall testing in order to get the manufacturing down to a reliable process- as in Cpk capable. Only two barrels have been lost directly to the drilling process since 2016. One due to a print mix up (our fault and our blank) and the other was a drill issue with a bad adapter design.
No other barrel has been lost.
Name one customer in which we had to replace a barrel.... it will be a long wait since there are none.

Drill wandering: and your experience is? Are you so sure about that? Can you list the parameters that allow for a straight drilling process? Careful on your knowledgeable answer. One of the things this engineer with pigs and tits does very well is "listen"... I am listening.

It is amazing how many people just assume that we are some guy out there with a Milwaukee drill making barrels. Just maybe we have extensive experience in automotive, medical, and aeronautical supply chains. Just maybe our experience in reject rate at field level was a major law suit at one in a million failures. Malcom Baldridge, 6-Sigma, ISO... whatever jargon you want to add. We do not make a barrel with failure in mind. It is designed to work within 3sigma at all times. Catastrophic failure is the only variable. Back to "no customer barrel has been lost". No internal barrel has been lost to standard process in 4yrs. I still have the failures- good reminders.

 

[...]

up in here accusing LRI of fabricating sources like CNN......now this thread is about to get good...

frankly ide love to hear more about this Sandblast finish cooling yall've got going on.

 

[John Baker]

ok....but can you tell me what a "supersonic microwave" is?.....and how does that differ from a "regular microwave"?

Since you are asking about a third party statement I will have to "guess".
Microwave in this case is not my microwave oven.
I think it was a jargon term describing waves of short length.
Since an explosion in a barrel does not produce a single node frequency (how narrow is narrow) and multiple frequency nodes will exist within the major sinosoidal event the term micro wave is general in nature.
I also believe the point was that vibration creates heat. Heat will shift your impact point as the node moves with the heat, and at some point it will add fatigue to the metal, and the additional BTU value inputted will decrease the delta from ambient of when the metal becomes malleable. I just might know something about this... during our processes in my past we had to build tools that vibrated very specifically.

How about this: I can see you and I are going to argue about small little points until the cows come home. Or pigs.
You choose the rifle (300cal and above).
Chassis or stock- I will build to match yours.
You choose 4 bullet weights. Of at least 60plus grains variation.
I load for both guns. You load for both guns. In fairness with an understanding of chamber/throat dimensions per bullet. Concentric rounds.
At least one 20shot string on 30sec intervals.
Group size, group drift, SD variation, velocity variation (yes ours stays flatter).
You choose the distance.
Neutral shooting place.
You beat our gun- you get our gun.
We beat you - we get your gun.
The targets won't lie, the numbers won't lie...

 

[308pirate]

Who are you? (after having a few of them here)
Only one Gunsmith has had several of them and we certainly have not had any discussions of failures.
Sources? Then your sources are absolutely fabricating a falsehood for some other personal gain. Please share them with us so we can contact them and have a professional discussion.
We did ruin about 10 barrels in overall testing in order to get the manufacturing down to a reliable process- as in Cpk capable. Only two barrels have been lost directly to the drilling process since 2016. One due to a print mix up (our fault and our blank) and the other was a drill issue with a bad adapter design.
No other barrel has been lost.
Name one customer in which we had to replace a barrel.... it will be a long wait since there are none.

Drill wandering: and your experience is? Are you so sure about that? Can you list the parameters that allow for a straight drilling process? Careful on your knowledgeable answer. One of the things this engineer with pigs and tits does very well is "listen"... I am listening.

It is amazing how many people just assume that we are some guy out there with a Milwaukee drill making barrels. Just maybe we have extensive experience in automotive, medical, and aeronautical supply chains. Just maybe our experience in reject rate at field level was a major law suit at one in a million failures. Malcom Baldridge, 6-Sigma, ISO... whatever jargon you want to add. We do not make a barrel with failure in mind. It is designed to work within 3sigma at all times. Catastrophic failure is the only variable. Back to "no customer barrel has been lost". No internal barrel has been lost to standard process in 4yrs. I still have the failures- good reminders.

 

[308pirate]

up in here accusing LRI of fabricating sources like CNN......now this thread is about to get good...

frankly ide love to hear more about this Sandblast finish cooling yall've got going on.

 

[John Baker]

up in here accusing LRI of fabricating sources like CNN......now this thread is about to get good...

frankly ide love to hear more about this Sandblast finish cooling yall've got going on.

The thought was simple- bugs. How do they dissipate heat?
We have tested several finishes and it was to me unbelievably wide ranging on their ability to either help remove heat or not absorb heat from direct sunlight. I can be a bad sceptic... LOL (so no direct front's to anybody on this site).. but the finishes where strikingly variable. We also have run different thread patterns - the idea being what would transmit more heat: surface area or the number of tips. Again it was a recognized variable.
Unlike "normal" barrels- if you shoot an extended string and stop shooting a typical barrel will rise in temperature as it sits. Potentially for tens' of minutes. Our barrels typically peak in 1-2 minutes that rapidly come down. They a heat sink- not an insulator. It has been recognized that the chambers are typically the coolest part of the barrel.
In my past a temperature delta of 50deg would completely alter the ability for the tool to run- or it would just plain fail to the point of splitting. Holding a piece of hardened D2 that weighs 64lbs and you split it through vibration... skeptic time for sure. Knowing the vibration node changes position, merged with other nodes ... just became a mess in general pushed us to not only controlling how much amplitude in vibration but also its direction. Control it. That control is the reduced felt recoil- your cheek bone isn't being whipped any longer.
To a lot of points noted in this forum- our barrels advantages start becoming larger as the caliber increases. Though interestingly we are selling our first series of 22cal barrels... something I originally tried to talk customers out of because I was not confident of the gains and would they be sufficient. But back to that 10% rule... what's it worth?

Ask some more questions.