I was imagining something smaller and self contained along the lines of liquid cooling like found in high end gaming PC's.
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Gunsmithing Any thoughts on structured barrels?
- Thread starter TriggerJerk!
- Start date
I was imagining something smaller and self contained along the lines of liquid cooling like found in high end gaming PC's.
The jump ahead will either be in chamber material, coating, treatment.... or propellant in regards to a large change in how we view chambers and throat wear.
I'm all for moving everything forward but that area is the key
I'm all for moving everything forward but that area is the key
I've closely monitored a couple of barrels over time and you can see the very faint swipes from the chamber reamer start the very first beginnings of the cracking. So obviously crevices that start just get worse. I'm not versed deep enough into the subject to know exactly how "wrong" this is, but I used static loading thick wall pressure vessel equations every inch down the bore in an excel spreadsheet, using a generic pressure curve from QL (.223 55gr I think) to analyze ID and OD stresses for various contours. Under those loading conditions the ID exposed to the 60-65ksi was not having fun (stress state). I can't remember exactly what the calculated stress states were but I remember being surprised by how high they were. What else was interesting was the elastic diameter increase, which tapered down from ~.0012 or so to a couple of tenths by the muzzle. Suffice it to say, it's a hostile environment. And again, I don't know exactly how different that loading scenario is from the dynamic load experienced when firing.
I'm with THEIS (I think) in that external cooling is not goin to make a barrel wear appreciably slower. Now obviously you can dump a belt of 400 rounds and smoke a barrel by heat soaking it and continuing to be mean to it. But for most of what we're doing, 10-15 round strings every few minutes, I don't think an icewater coolant system is going to increase barrel life enough to warrant the extra hassle.
I'd be looking more in the way of coatings, liners, materials, etc.
I'm with THEIS (I think) in that external cooling is not goin to make a barrel wear appreciably slower. Now obviously you can dump a belt of 400 rounds and smoke a barrel by heat soaking it and continuing to be mean to it. But for most of what we're doing, 10-15 round strings every few minutes, I don't think an icewater coolant system is going to increase barrel life enough to warrant the extra hassle.
I'd be looking more in the way of coatings, liners, materials, etc.
I received a phone call today from the owner of S.B.
After speaking with this gent I think I spoke out of turn with some of my earlier remarks. (Which are now deleted, but they've been quoted by a few folks, so they are still visible) The truth is I have only limited experience with these things and if I'm going to make a bold statement then I should have some actual data in front of me. I didn't so I apologize for speaking out of turn.
Dumb move on my part.
I can tell you this: For a guy to call someone and politely point out he doesn't know what he's talking about (I'm the ignorant one here) and then be approached in the same conversation about the possibility of working with them in the future, it speaks volumes to his character. There aren't a lot of folks who'd do that.
You learn something about people every day.
C.
After speaking with this gent I think I spoke out of turn with some of my earlier remarks. (Which are now deleted, but they've been quoted by a few folks, so they are still visible) The truth is I have only limited experience with these things and if I'm going to make a bold statement then I should have some actual data in front of me. I didn't so I apologize for speaking out of turn.
Dumb move on my part.
I can tell you this: For a guy to call someone and politely point out he doesn't know what he's talking about (I'm the ignorant one here) and then be approached in the same conversation about the possibility of working with them in the future, it speaks volumes to his character. There aren't a lot of folks who'd do that.
You learn something about people every day.
C.
Thank you Chad.
As the movie line goes " you had me at...", cars, RC planes at 240mph, polyesters, ester resins, well at that point you were telling me about a breadth of experience, some errors and most likely crashes, a hard learning curve. Oh the line of something about a historically stable trend line... I agree. Our goal is to create that trend line.
Another note: testing. You have an oven that you use in your Cerakote. If we send you one of our completed barrels, heat it to 275degrees, lay it flat on a pair of v-blocks with minimal surface contact... time its value to room ambient. How much for you to perform that third party test? Perhaps I can't sway the world but we are certainly focusing on specific people one at a time...
Well my turn-- can't resist.
Bull heavy barrel vs pencil barrel.
I would think the wear with all given equivalents in materials would be the same.
Volume vs Area
When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier and its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier.
In this case:
2 | 16.000 | 18.000 | 20.000 | 22.000 | 24.000 | 26.000 | 28.000 | 30.000 | 32.000 | 34.000 | |||
| OD | 0.5 | 0.25 | 0.19635 | 3.142 | 3.534 | 3.927 | 4.320 | 4.712 | 5.105 | 5.498 | 5.890 | 6.283 | 6.676 |
0.002 | 0.002 | 0.002 | 0.002 | 0.003 | 0.003 | 0.003 | 0.003 | 0.004 | 0.004 | ||||
| total weight | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | |||
| Volume | 3.142 | 3.534 | 3.927 | 4.320 | 4.712 | 5.105 | 5.498 | 5.890 | 6.283 | 6.676 | |||
| Surface area | 25.525 | 28.667 | 31.809 | 34.950 | 38.092 | 41.233 | 44.375 | 47.517 | 50.658 | 53.800 | |||
2 | 16.000 | 18.000 | 20.000 | 22.000 | 24.000 | 26.000 | 28.000 | 30.000 | 32.000 | 34.000 | |||
| OD | 1 | 0.5 | 0.785398 | 12.566 | 14.137 | 15.708 | 17.279 | 18.850 | 20.420 | 21.991 | 23.562 | 25.133 | 26.704 |
0.007 | 0.008 | 0.009 | 0.010 | 0.011 | 0.012 | 0.013 | 0.014 | 0.015 | 0.015 | ||||
| total weight | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | |||
| Volume | 12.566 | 14.137 | 15.708 | 17.279 | 18.850 | 20.420 | 21.991 | 23.562 | 25.133 | 26.704 | |||
| Surface area | 51.836 | 58.119 | 64.403 | 70.686 | 76.969 | 83.252 | 89.535 | 95.819 | 102.102 | 108.385 |
Sorry for the displaced column (have to figure out how to do things on here). Two barrels are chosen: for simplicity a .5"dia and a 1"dia representing the pencil and bull barrels.
The diameter doubled.
Volume triples
Surface area only doubles.
Perhaps what I am noting (perhaps only) - the heavy barrel becomes an insulator. Initially to the hand it is cooler for to the touch compared to the pencil barrel, but it is only due to time required to dissipate the heat to the outside world. Ask a guy how long it takes to dissipate the heat out of his .416 barrel after 15shot string at K2M. Compare it to ours.... there is absolutely no comparison.
In our case the volume went up by the noted triple value: but our surface area went up by a factor of 6. IF we add our outside surface finishes plus the larger diameter (weight for weight) it is even higher - we negate the squared and cubed values. Our surface area is increasing faster than the volume.
I know we are arguing that our increased area does not or has little effect on the throat.
Can we agree that the maximum temp at the powder event is about 2" in length?
If I take a 1.6 inch cylinder/section of the barrel and suspend it with the smallest amount of contact to any support possible (let's say a wire) and apply a regulated heat source we should be able to determine its value to time/vs stable temp against the heat source.
If we repeat the same action with our shapes... same input of energy... sounds like a good test.
IF:
a+b = A+B noting equilibrium for a barrel and or max energy before phase changes occur then our barrel has to be:
a+b = A+B-C A+B has to be lower values.
All we are doing is lowering the standard running temperature of the barrel given inputs of a powder charge by dissipating heat faster.
Well that is what we are saying- along with every person who has bought our barrel. Good 100% trend line.
After a 15 shot string at an ELR comp you can pick up our rifle by the barrel. Within 2 minutes it has hit its peak temp after the firing cycle. At that point it is cooling rapidly.
If the heat energy is not moving into our structure where is it going?
While you tell me I am wrong/mistaken about our shape having any impact on the cooling of the system- you have not explained why it does happen, or why so many videos are arriving talking about how much cooler they run.
Heat input of the bullet going down the barrel. I would be confident that we are trying to friction weld the bullet into the barrel as it passes down the barrel... Are the copper deposits just copper rubbing on the rough surface a pure mechanical attachment or a friction weld? As we all know friction welding is used in many instances. And in some not so wanted instances- in my past I have friction welded diamond matrixes to glass components. Glass has pretty high capacity to dissipate heat. However, remove some coolant and presto... The point. The bullet does add friction heat. As you increase the diameter of the barrel its ability to dissipate that heat decreases. As it decreases the equilibrium max/or
of the barrel also decreases : A+B+C= a+b
Dealing with heat- resistance or dissipation. If the material does not change heat has to be dissipated.
Chimney effect- we have small openings with larger exits over a long tube. Ask any heat exchange guy. Furnaces, chimneys, passive cooling.
Air is moved thru the drilled cores. Moving the air is displacing the hot air inside the tube.
With that- I hope to see an argument knocking my points back.
Bottom line is this barrel cools much much faster. If it is not acting as a "heat sink" then what is happening?
Have you looked at the bore scope videos?
A recent world-ranking F1 team shot several of our barrels. The team leader bore scoped several barrels... what do you think he found?
"If I did not know better I would not think this 300Norma has 200rounds in it"
"there is essentially know fire cracking in this barrel"... AR in 260. NO it is not a wall gun it is a demonstrator we use on the military bases. NO I am not telling the guys to shoot slow.
Funny they immediately ordered barrels from their supplier for us to process. World class F1 team...do you really think I pulled the wool over their eyes? LOL
Mcameron- were are you located?
An argument is taking place in which one of the sides does not have all of the components to make solid statements. Perhaps I don't but I am willing to learn why are barrels aren't doing what they are doing.
Perhaps I can prove this to you one on one..? Audience is welcome.
thanks for the post, if the product works or not you have not run from the discussion and have actually become more pleasant in your replies keeping this thread informative not a bitch-fest. 
no horse in the race and i hope your barrels work, i love guys pushing the envelope design wise. this industry seems stuck in the mud at times...id buy one immediately
just trying to clarify and stay on point
when experimenting there needs to be a description of what the intent is of the item being tested, the parameters of the test and the method of testing.
the actual pass fail is a product of the testing and results
1. i dont think anyone is debating the greater the surface area the greater the cooling effect all things being equal (if they are they are just confused in general)
2. there might be some questioning/debate about the design and the actual increased percentage related to time/ temperature of heat dissipation
3. there are also the questions of the internal bore temperature and the designs ability to move bore heat (closest to the chamber/initial ignition) to the exterior of the barrel via heat sink. there are no mechanical fans or cooing other than air convection through designed holes. im also guessing that for best results the rifle/barrel should be situated while cooling to take advantage of that convection (like a chimney strait up etc)
4. lets agree that all heat generated comes from the bore and moves outward (the additive heat from direct sunlight or alike while measurable is irrelevant compared to the internal temperature of 2500-4000 degree F when a cartridge is fired depending on powder and other variables). so all tests should be performed starting at the bore and then particular static distances from the bore to the outer surface.
4A. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore measurably extend barrel life, in regular cadence of shooting. different disciplines have different course of fire so those should be noted. i dont expect and should not expect this design to change anything on a full auto full belt run.
4B. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore reduce the barrel from wondering when heat is built up. i personally have not seen studies performed on barrel temperature (starting with bore) compared with shot dispersion. i kind of remember in AB volume 2 having something along those lines ill have to check, i believe they were testing barrel profiles.
unless increased exterior barrel surface temperature causes issues with function and or accuracy (burning your hand does not count for design validity unless that was the original intent) the actual temperature of the exterior has no bearing in this study. unless the increased exterior temp, increases the internal bore/chamber temperature thus increasing unfried cartridge temp possibly increasing velocity which may change POI compared to ambient temperature cartridges.
if exterior barrel temp can be used as a validated marker for interior bore temperatures, that can be used in future tests as a generic "better" or "worse" description.
possibly the increased cooing and heat sink from the bore may possibly cool chamber enough so the unfired cartridge itself doesnt absorb the barrel bore heat possibly increasing velocity changing POI and vertical dispersion.
if one or more of these issues are confirmed you have found yourself a nice product/design.
if everyone dances around the real questions, then its a waste of time
in my opinion the 2 best outcomes will be: (im not discounting but im doubting measurable barrel life extension will occur)
1. barrel harmonics/characteristics stay within a tighter range when for a longer period of time/shots fired. Or allow for a broader range of temperatures which may increase sustained accuracy when heat is generated.
2. the heat can be dissipated quick enough that a regular firing cadence; example 1 shot per 2 min can be increased to 1 shot every 90 seconds for the same amount of shots fired. or allowing more shots in a given time period with less barrel warming possibly limiting the inevitable degradation of accuracy.
thanks
from my phone as usual, so if there is some weird wording etc reply and ill retype. just to damn hard to edit on a screen
no horse in the race and i hope your barrels work, i love guys pushing the envelope design wise. this industry seems stuck in the mud at times...id buy one immediately
just trying to clarify and stay on point
when experimenting there needs to be a description of what the intent is of the item being tested, the parameters of the test and the method of testing.
the actual pass fail is a product of the testing and results
1. i dont think anyone is debating the greater the surface area the greater the cooling effect all things being equal (if they are they are just confused in general)
2. there might be some questioning/debate about the design and the actual increased percentage related to time/ temperature of heat dissipation
3. there are also the questions of the internal bore temperature and the designs ability to move bore heat (closest to the chamber/initial ignition) to the exterior of the barrel via heat sink. there are no mechanical fans or cooing other than air convection through designed holes. im also guessing that for best results the rifle/barrel should be situated while cooling to take advantage of that convection (like a chimney strait up etc)
4. lets agree that all heat generated comes from the bore and moves outward (the additive heat from direct sunlight or alike while measurable is irrelevant compared to the internal temperature of 2500-4000 degree F when a cartridge is fired depending on powder and other variables). so all tests should be performed starting at the bore and then particular static distances from the bore to the outer surface.
4A. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore measurably extend barrel life, in regular cadence of shooting. different disciplines have different course of fire so those should be noted. i dont expect and should not expect this design to change anything on a full auto full belt run.
4B. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore reduce the barrel from wondering when heat is built up. i personally have not seen studies performed on barrel temperature (starting with bore) compared with shot dispersion. i kind of remember in AB volume 2 having something along those lines ill have to check, i believe they were testing barrel profiles.
unless increased exterior barrel surface temperature causes issues with function and or accuracy (burning your hand does not count for design validity unless that was the original intent) the actual temperature of the exterior has no bearing in this study. unless the increased exterior temp, increases the internal bore/chamber temperature thus increasing unfried cartridge temp possibly increasing velocity which may change POI compared to ambient temperature cartridges.
if exterior barrel temp can be used as a validated marker for interior bore temperatures, that can be used in future tests as a generic "better" or "worse" description.
possibly the increased cooing and heat sink from the bore may possibly cool chamber enough so the unfired cartridge itself doesnt absorb the barrel bore heat possibly increasing velocity changing POI and vertical dispersion.
if one or more of these issues are confirmed you have found yourself a nice product/design.
if everyone dances around the real questions, then its a waste of time
in my opinion the 2 best outcomes will be: (im not discounting but im doubting measurable barrel life extension will occur)
1. barrel harmonics/characteristics stay within a tighter range when for a longer period of time/shots fired. Or allow for a broader range of temperatures which may increase sustained accuracy when heat is generated.
2. the heat can be dissipated quick enough that a regular firing cadence; example 1 shot per 2 min can be increased to 1 shot every 90 seconds for the same amount of shots fired. or allowing more shots in a given time period with less barrel warming possibly limiting the inevitable degradation of accuracy.
thanks
from my phone as usual, so if there is some weird wording etc reply and ill retype. just to damn hard to edit on a screen
I have conducted 20, 35, and 50 shot tests in a "fixed" rail gun (pneumatic return, V-block setup) with acoustic targets that track absolute location of each shot. 1.25" straight barrel. I have done them in segments of 10 shot strings and compiled the data, allowing 10-20 minutes to cool to ambient in between strings, and I have let it rip for 35 shots with a shot roughly every 5 seconds. No change (large enough to be outside of the system noise) was noted in overall dispersion, nor in dispersion over the individual course of fire. Mean radius, and SD on mean radius was similar when running the same test both ways. I tested it a couple times to ensure I wasn't skewing results to save time.
How a #5 contour holds up, I don't know. Also, on a shoulder-fired rifle mirage off of the barrel or suppressor will cause aiming image to degrade within 10-15 shots without covers/tapes, and very likely accuracy/precision along with it. Usually see .1-.15 MOA increase in total group size going from the rail gun to shouldered with the same barrel & load. Aiming error, inconsistent recoil platform, etc...
I have thought about copper plating the barrels many times for the reason you noted. Two items slow me down: Is the thickness of the plated copper sufficient to increase the cooling effect and by how much over the stainless. Second- it will corrode/oxidize. Once oxidized will it retain the same performance?
2. ---there might be some questioning/debate about the design and the actual increased percentage related to time/ temperature of heat dissipation---thanks for the post, if the product works or not you have not run from the discussion and have actually become more pleasant in your replies keeping this thread informative not a bitch-fest.
no horse in the race and i hope your barrels work, i love guys pushing the envelope design wise. this industry seems stuck in the mud at times...id buy one immediately
just trying to clarify and stay on point
when experimenting there needs to be a description of what the intent is of the item being tested, the parameters of the test and the method of testing.
the actual pass fail is a product of the testing and results
1. i dont think anyone is debating the greater the surface area the greater the cooling effect all things being equal (if they are they are just confused in general)
2. there might be some questioning/debate about the design and the actual increased percentage related to time/ temperature of heat dissipation
3. there are also the questions of the internal bore temperature and the designs ability to move bore heat (closest to the chamber/initial ignition) to the exterior of the barrel via heat sink. there are no mechanical fans or cooing other than air convection through designed holes. im also guessing that for best results the rifle/barrel should be situated while cooling to take advantage of that convection (like a chimney strait up etc)
4. lets agree that all heat generated comes from the bore and moves outward (the additive heat from direct sunlight or alike while measurable is irrelevant compared to the internal temperature of 2500-4000 degree F when a cartridge is fired depending on powder and other variables). so all tests should be performed starting at the bore and then particular static distances from the bore to the outer surface.
4A. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore measurably extend barrel life, in regular cadence of shooting. different disciplines have different course of fire so those should be noted. i dont expect and should not expect this design to change anything on a full auto full belt run.
4B. does the possible increase in sinking heat from the bore reduce the barrel from wondering when heat is built up. i personally have not seen studies performed on barrel temperature (starting with bore) compared with shot dispersion. i kind of remember in AB volume 2 having something along those lines ill have to check, i believe they were testing barrel profiles.
unless increased exterior barrel surface temperature causes issues with function and or accuracy (burning your hand does not count for design validity unless that was the original intent) the actual temperature of the exterior has no bearing in this study. unless the increased exterior temp, increases the internal bore/chamber temperature thus increasing unfried cartridge temp possibly increasing velocity which may change POI compared to ambient temperature cartridges.
if exterior barrel temp can be used as a validated marker for interior bore temperatures, that can be used in future tests as a generic "better" or "worse" description.
possibly the increased cooing and heat sink from the bore may possibly cool chamber enough so the unfired cartridge itself doesnt absorb the barrel bore heat possibly increasing velocity changing POI and vertical dispersion.
if one or more of these issues are confirmed you have found yourself a nice product/design.
if everyone dances around the real questions, then its a waste of time
in my opinion the 2 best outcomes will be: (im not discounting but im doubting measurable barrel life extension will occur)
1. barrel harmonics/characteristics stay within a tighter range when for a longer period of time/shots fired. Or allow for a broader range of temperatures which may increase sustained accuracy when heat is generated.
2. the heat can be dissipated quick enough that a regular firing cadence; example 1 shot per 2 min can be increased to 1 shot every 90 seconds for the same amount of shots fired. or allowing more shots in a given time period with less barrel warming possibly limiting the inevitable degradation of accuracy.
thanks
from my phone as usual, so if there is some weird wording etc reply and ill retype. just to damn hard to edit on a screen
It is for this reason we take into account outside ambient values. A sun soaked value can have a delta T of over 70deg F. That can be an impact when compared to a 500deg limit. Second soaking the barrel in the sun/oven/heat source to a value and comparing barrels side by side in a neutral (no energy input) shade and comparing cool down times is an indicator. The difference is not single digit minutes, it is tens of minutes.
To your point of parameters in and results out. I agree. However, provided by a third party is certainly of greater credibility. I just wish some people would watch the 3rd party comments/videos and look at those results.
4. ---lets agree that all heat generated comes from the bore and moves outward (the additive heat from direct sunlight or alike while measurable is irrelevant compared to the internal temperature of 2500-4000 degree F when a cartridge is fired depending on powder and other variables). so all tests should be performed starting at the bore and then particular static distances from the bore to the outer surface.---
I note the bullet friction as a secondary heat source that is adding a caloric value to the system. This caloric event is a Minus value in the equalibrium scale. As noted earlier friction welding- what is the temperature of the mated surfaces? A few molecular layers in?
Vibration is also a factor: most people do not realize how an out of tune vibration can created heat. Bend a piece of aluminum thru fatigue to breakage- is there heat? Rough comparison but ask any body who has Ultra Sonically welded... material and tool heat. Touch a US tool with your fingers... tell me what you feel. If I drop a of water with a fine solid suspended in it the vibration of the tool will evaporate the water quickly leaving a rolling ball of solids.
The bullet and vibration add a heat value to the equation.
Main heat in the throat: absolutely. At blank value from the throat I would think it is a reducing value. Moving away from the throat friction should become a higher inputted value. After all how hot to car brakes get... not the same perhaps.. but if I interpolated a fps value and friction values I pretty willing to bet things will line up.
I would say its easy to document the addition of environment: while not exact- Shooting my Norma or .375 on a hot sun soaked day at you 1-2 minutes per round the count we will go 20 rounds or so before the exterior of the barrel exceeds 120deg F. Today its in the 50's or even choose lower 70's: the barrels won't essentially heat up for 10's of rounds... Watch the k2M video the .375 raised 12deg in 13 rounds fired. That was the hot measurement and the chamber value. 140deg soak to ambient is a direct value. That's why I am reaching out to a guy with an oven. Plot the curve. If the area in front of the barrel has little to do with the cooling of the chamber then running heat test of a range of 150deg to 500deg in 50deg increments should have little effect on the stock barrel vs structured barrel temps.
----possibly the increased cooing and heat sink from the bore may possibly cool chamber enough so the unfired cartridge itself doesnt absorb the barrel bore heat possibly increasing velocity changing POI and vertical dispersion---.
Easy one. IT does increase the ability to chamber a round after multiple rounds, not cook and not have the vertical. See Chris Schmidt/Chase Stroud video. And shooters already have adjusted their cooking issues- A well known 50cal shooter noted they changed their chambering cycle.
---in my opinion the 2 best outcomes will be: (im not discounting but im doubting measurable barrel life extension will occur)-- Coastal Precision Video.
1. barrel harmonics/characteristics stay within a tighter range when for a longer period of time/shots fired. Or allow for a broader range of temperatures which may increase sustained accuracy when heat is generated.
2. the heat can be dissipated quick enough that a regular firing cadence; example 1 shot per 2 min can be increased to 1 shot every 90 seconds for the same amount of shots fired. or allowing more shots in a given time period with less barrel warming possibly limiting the inevitable degradation of accuracy.
Broad response- I have read the note on lack of increased dispersion in the next email. Three separate 3rd parties have different results. Not a big surprise considering the variables.
Not scientific values:
My TRG 42 in 300WM is deadly on cold bore for 4-5 shots then starts to open up. It does not compete with my Norma.
A close friend with a Norma and fairly heavy barrel will have his shots start to open up after 4-5 rounds- He owns at least 3-4 Normas.
The large diameter of our barrel is cooler, it is resisting bending. When a standard barrel heats up its bore size increases. Our cooler OD is trying to prevent expansion. Our SD's stay flatter and have been commented on by highly competent outside sources.
You noted AB... the .375Lethal mag had velocity drift. Part of the reason for the .375EnAbler. The velocity drift started relatively quickly. What are the sources for that drift? Bad loading or barrel variation? Paul Phillips shot 25 rounds through his .416. His SD was under 5. No load work up same load from his previous barrel. He commented on that flat SD. Is a flat SD important to any long range sport? Rhetorical. I will admit is was about a 30deg day-- the barrel might have made it to 50deg. Watch his video.
This is my first time posting on Sniper’s Hide. I have been using it (socially correct way of saying “lurking”) as a resource for a number of years but have never jumped in.
This thread piqued my interest as I have used tacomHQ’s Charlie Tarac macro for over a year now while instructing ELR. This unit has been mounted on one of our Cadex Defense 375 Cheytacs.
I had the opportunity to swing by Tacom yesterday while visiting my daughter in Arkansas for Thanksgiving break.
What a blast, literally. They recently moved from Illinois to Arkansas and are currently finishing up setting up their new shop.
I met John Baker (owner) as well as Ken Decker who does much of the (exterior) structured barrel work with the machines. Great guys! They asked if I was interested in shooting a 300 Norma Mag with one of their structured barrels and of course I could not pass that up. I have seen these at the Shot Show Industry Day for the last three years but never really pursued anything with it. I was more interested in the Charlie at the time.
While I can’t speak to the engineering aspects of the barrels (Don’t touch things you don’t understand.), as I am not an engineer, I will say the recoil, or lack thereof, was incredible, and like nothing else I had experienced before. If I were to compare the recoil impulse to something I would say it was very similar to our Tikka Sporter (older 595) .223 with even less push to the shoulder (as if it had any at all.). I literally had to look at the cartridges that I was shooting to see if something was up. Staying on target was an absolute breeze.
I’m most interested to see what working up loads will be like, specifically with regard to forgiving velocity nodes and low ES’s. Also, where I live in Wyoming can have 60° F temperature swings in a single day. This makes it extremely frustrating when you have a client behind a gun and you’re completely out of your velocity node.
I talked my boss into purchasing one of these to replace the barrel on our 375 Cheytac. We most likely will not have it together until the spring but I will catch you guys up on what we find.
This thread piqued my interest as I have used tacomHQ’s Charlie Tarac macro for over a year now while instructing ELR. This unit has been mounted on one of our Cadex Defense 375 Cheytacs.
I had the opportunity to swing by Tacom yesterday while visiting my daughter in Arkansas for Thanksgiving break.
What a blast, literally. They recently moved from Illinois to Arkansas and are currently finishing up setting up their new shop.
I met John Baker (owner) as well as Ken Decker who does much of the (exterior) structured barrel work with the machines. Great guys! They asked if I was interested in shooting a 300 Norma Mag with one of their structured barrels and of course I could not pass that up. I have seen these at the Shot Show Industry Day for the last three years but never really pursued anything with it. I was more interested in the Charlie at the time.
While I can’t speak to the engineering aspects of the barrels (Don’t touch things you don’t understand.), as I am not an engineer, I will say the recoil, or lack thereof, was incredible, and like nothing else I had experienced before. If I were to compare the recoil impulse to something I would say it was very similar to our Tikka Sporter (older 595) .223 with even less push to the shoulder (as if it had any at all.). I literally had to look at the cartridges that I was shooting to see if something was up. Staying on target was an absolute breeze.
I’m most interested to see what working up loads will be like, specifically with regard to forgiving velocity nodes and low ES’s. Also, where I live in Wyoming can have 60° F temperature swings in a single day. This makes it extremely frustrating when you have a client behind a gun and you’re completely out of your velocity node.
I talked my boss into purchasing one of these to replace the barrel on our 375 Cheytac. We most likely will not have it together until the spring but I will catch you guys up on what we find.
John, I see a lot of white paper. There's a lot of outside the box out there. Gotta keep an open mind to new tech. NO doubt. So knowing that I see crazy hypothetical ideas on a daily, it still doesn't make enough sense to me to latch on to to even test. that's not to say anything that I'd test. But what I see is you're trying to sell to the masses too soon. Need to take those like LRI seriously, they are in the high end of the game, and they will give you unfiltered. That's what you need, is a Marine unfiltered, to basically tell you what you think you know. So while I'm watching, still watching.
later
JR
Just bought an action... next stop... structured barrel and a nice KRG chassis to put it in...
Sirhr
Sirhr
I can understand why some of Johns replies were a little acidic at times. Just look at some of the nonuff comments about the barrel tech &, it's easy to understand why.
As far as vibration goes, I heartily agree with John.
I've not long purchased an MDT ACC for my 308 Howa 1500. The original stock was just the cheap Hogue & with scope weighed in around 9Lbs. With the ACC & full internal weight kit, the rifle + scope weigh in at 17Lbs. The difference firing the rifle now is stunning, to say the least. (wait for it)....The ACC even at 8Lbs more, is little better to shoot (recoil wise) than the Hogue stock. To say I was surprised is a gross understatement. Because the ACC is probably exponentially more rigid than the Hogue, the recoil transmitted is undeniably more harsh & the recoil impulse feels much sharper, even with the added weight. So, vibration &, its transmission are a huge determinant in felt recoil.
I've always wondered why PRS guys are using 20lb + & 26Lb guns, well now I know part wise.
Although I'm very happy with the ACC in general, the vibration aspect of Chassis is never discussed &, I can understand why.
Anyhow John, if you want to send me one of your barrels, I'll gladly "evaluate" it for you.
Regards...............Barelstroker.
It’s never discussed because you’re definitely in the minority with what you’re feeling.
I’d start looking in what you as the shooter are doing differently with the chassis vs the stock.
Well, I do the same as I did with original stock.
It is better but, nowhere near what I expected &, now I can feel a harshness I didn't detect before. The rifle jumps around less but, it's definitely harsher is some ways. Also the barrel I have on ATM is a light sporter weight so, it's nowhere near as front heavy as the typical PRS rifle however, I didn't expect it to be either.
As far as opinion goes, I'm not surprised I'm in the minority. There's a lot guys who are very knowledgeable & honest, then there's a lot who live their lives clinging to coat tails & riding bandwagons &, couldn't lie straight in bed.
As far as doing something wrong, if you have some advice, I'm not too proud to listen. Currently, & as before, I'm using a Harris bipod with rear bag off a sturdy bench. I haven't shot prone yet, but I will in the near future.
Regards..........Barelstroker.
Hello JR,
Actually I did contact LRI and we had a long conversation. I took him very seriously and actually reached out to work with him as the conversation went on (see his response). It's the critic I do focus on many a times, like yourself: if the critic comes on over then we are proving something. This thread got started onto a way wrong track and I felt a need to provide the other side of the story. The shooters (Chris Schmidt, Paul Phillips, Chase Stroud), gunsmiths (Rob Vestel, Dan Warner), top F1 teams are indeed where we are focusing...
White paper... as in theory? You haven't seen noth'n yet. LOL
Sir-
Would you be willing to reach out to me please-
[email protected]
We have a paper that runs a gamut of various theory. Your input would be hugely appreciated.
Sent! Let me know if you don't see an email with the subject line "Structured Barrels - Gnochi from SH".
The bead blasting makes perfect sense and I have seen it. I hd bed blasted barrel and I ended up sanding it smooth. Even by shot 6 or 7 the heat haze from the barrel created way too much mirage. It never did it before I got it blasted and it went away one I got rid of the bead blasted surfacethis made me chuckle...
View attachment 7431381
essentially, "we are unable to calculate what(if any) effect this has, but we are going to claim it as a benefit"
View attachment 7431383
View attachment 7431385
........"theoretically"........
also...."supersonic microwave"?
View attachment 7431388
....so the opposing holes "cancel out".....but dont you still have the original stress from the bore of the rifle?
View attachment 7431389
View attachment 7431386
....ok now they are just making up words....
when i see companies throwing out LOTS of engineering technical jargon in an attempt to make it look like their products are "better engineered".....my BS detector immediately starts jumping......most people arent engineers, and they know that, and it seems like they are trying to hide behind that technical jargon.
its like if your doctor came to you and said "we suspect you have Peripheral oedema brought on by protal hypertension"....and just walking out the door....you dont know what that means, your doctor knows you dont know what that means.....thats why your doctor is going to say "you have fat ankles because your liver is failing"
posting FEA calculations and cool gifs are essentially meaningless, sure it looks cool, and someone who doesnt have experience with FEA modeling will think "wow theyve done serious engineering"......but i dont know the parameters theyve set for the calculations. just like statistics, i can make FEA calcs reflect what i want them to.
not saying the barrels dont work....im just saying they probably dont work as well as they want you to believe.
Hi,
@John Baker
Can you please advise as to TACOMHQs new Fort Smith address? I will be headed up to Wyoming shortly from Louisiana and would like to see about stopping by for a visit.
And while individual gunsmiths are a valuable tool, pretty much none have the capabilities to "test" anything. They can evaluate absolutely but "testing" structural flex strength, recoil comparisons, etc etc require certified and calibrated machines/equipment.
The ol industry standard of "Yep, that right there felt different and made all the difference" just does not work as "Tested and Approved".
You have one of the largest and quiet possibly the best testing and accreditation companies in the USA with a facility not too far from you in Camden.
Here is just a snippet of what they can "Test":
Sincerely,
Theis
@John Baker
Can you please advise as to TACOMHQs new Fort Smith address? I will be headed up to Wyoming shortly from Louisiana and would like to see about stopping by for a visit.
And while individual gunsmiths are a valuable tool, pretty much none have the capabilities to "test" anything. They can evaluate absolutely but "testing" structural flex strength, recoil comparisons, etc etc require certified and calibrated machines/equipment.
The ol industry standard of "Yep, that right there felt different and made all the difference" just does not work as "Tested and Approved".
You have one of the largest and quiet possibly the best testing and accreditation companies in the USA with a facility not too far from you in Camden.
Here is just a snippet of what they can "Test":
Sincerely,
Theis
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I hesitate to wade back into this given the level of engineering being discussed.
In trying to condense my understanding - let's call it "Basics of throat heat erosion for idiots"...
Seems all agree that the throat region- a couple of inches ahead of the chamber- is the area most affected due to the extreme heat generated.
What's the difference in the erosion effect/change in physical properties of the steel here if comparing (arbitrary, for purpose of discussion) five shots in succession (pick a short interval between shots) on a cold bore- versus the same, over a bore with a surface temperature in the throat of 500 degrees (again, arbitrary temp).
Seems it would be relatively simple for controlled testing for this- including sectioning the barrel throats with examination of the steel molecular structure with the appropriate device (electron microscopy?).
Are there any material properties that affect the level of heat erosion to the steel, other than hardness? If so, what is/are they?
Just seems to this non-engineer that there's apparently no firm answers to some questions that seem solvable with testing.
Such as, comparing the throat erosion of a salt bath nitrided barrel (both 416r and chromoly) and one of 400MODBB?
In trying to condense my understanding - let's call it "Basics of throat heat erosion for idiots"...
Seems all agree that the throat region- a couple of inches ahead of the chamber- is the area most affected due to the extreme heat generated.
What's the difference in the erosion effect/change in physical properties of the steel here if comparing (arbitrary, for purpose of discussion) five shots in succession (pick a short interval between shots) on a cold bore- versus the same, over a bore with a surface temperature in the throat of 500 degrees (again, arbitrary temp).
Seems it would be relatively simple for controlled testing for this- including sectioning the barrel throats with examination of the steel molecular structure with the appropriate device (electron microscopy?).
Are there any material properties that affect the level of heat erosion to the steel, other than hardness? If so, what is/are they?
Just seems to this non-engineer that there's apparently no firm answers to some questions that seem solvable with testing.
Such as, comparing the throat erosion of a salt bath nitrided barrel (both 416r and chromoly) and one of 400MODBB?
Hi,
All of it can be tested and proven/disproven. It just takes money and more equipment than sun soaking and cerakote oven.
For example:
Bartlein has multiple ammunition companies that follow a very very strict pressure and accuracy testing protocols that have 10+ years of documenting the wear over x amount of rounds through the regular alloy barrels. Those same ammunition companies are now several barrels into their SOP with the new ModBB alloy.
FN has hundreds of barrels in their testing program and have documented studies on this coating,, that coating, check that coating, this finish, that finish, etc etc. New coating is reportedly at over 4k rounds of 6.5CM but hasn't been put public exactly what the testing procedures have been.
Sincerely,
Theis
All of it can be tested and proven/disproven. It just takes money and more equipment than sun soaking and cerakote oven.
For example:
Bartlein has multiple ammunition companies that follow a very very strict pressure and accuracy testing protocols that have 10+ years of documenting the wear over x amount of rounds through the regular alloy barrels. Those same ammunition companies are now several barrels into their SOP with the new ModBB alloy.
FN has hundreds of barrels in their testing program and have documented studies on this coating,, that coating, check that coating, this finish, that finish, etc etc. New coating is reportedly at over 4k rounds of 6.5CM but hasn't been put public exactly what the testing procedures have been.
Sincerely,
Theis
Gentlemen, I started this thread with the hope of generating a productive discussion on structured barrels. And while our best discussions do tend to go through a “warm phase”, they never fail to uncover new questions and reveal astute lines of reasoning.
My sincere thanks to all, especially Mr John Baker. Please continue to post new research findings and anecdotal insights here as time allows.
SH continues to be the best source for all things related to our sport!
My sincere thanks to all, especially Mr John Baker. Please continue to post new research findings and anecdotal insights here as time allows.
SH continues to be the best source for all things related to our sport!
What advantage does a structured barrel have over a heavy bull Barrel, aggressive fluting, put into a freezer, and having a tight sleeve put over it (heated in an oven first) and then using that ? Lets ignore that it's not a true bond, and the shape isn't the same as a drilled hole.
From a technical stand point, is this stupid or "something else to concider" ??
From a technical stand point, is this stupid or "something else to concider" ??
Just ordered a structured barrel to go with the action and scope that my brothers on SH have helped me get together.
Action is a magnum bolt-face 700 trued, poked and stroked by Fritz Alquist of Denver. Scope is a unicorn US Optics SN-9. Another SH snag!
Going to be .300 Win Mag. A caliber I already load for. Debated some of the more exotic calibers, but I want to stick with the devil I know. ;-)
It's coming together! Next to order a W-3 from Justin at KRG.
Sirhr
Action is a magnum bolt-face 700 trued, poked and stroked by Fritz Alquist of Denver. Scope is a unicorn US Optics SN-9. Another SH snag!
Going to be .300 Win Mag. A caliber I already load for. Debated some of the more exotic calibers, but I want to stick with the devil I know. ;-)
It's coming together! Next to order a W-3 from Justin at KRG.
Sirhr
If Rex was amazed is got to be a good barrel.
So currently in holding pattern. The barrel is in production and right on schedule. Trying to decide if I am going to have some milled patterns for heat reduction. I will. But not sure what, yet.
Big hold-up right now is Triggertech order. Which is lost somewhere in the mail. More than a month since shipment from Canada and no clue where the trigger is. I think, at this point, that Cliff Clavin stole it.
But I have to compliment Triggertech on really great communications and helping me follow this from Canada and through customs. If I e-mail them, the response is in minutes. And they are all over this.
Right now, everything cross-border sucks and ordering from Canada is a leap of faith. But so far, the folks at TriggerTech are really on top of their USA customers.
They were THE recommended trigger from Mile High and another Denver 'smith. So am really looking forward to the arrival. Patience... right? Everything right now is patience!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Big hold-up right now is Triggertech order. Which is lost somewhere in the mail. More than a month since shipment from Canada and no clue where the trigger is. I think, at this point, that Cliff Clavin stole it.
But I have to compliment Triggertech on really great communications and helping me follow this from Canada and through customs. If I e-mail them, the response is in minutes. And they are all over this.
Right now, everything cross-border sucks and ordering from Canada is a leap of faith. But so far, the folks at TriggerTech are really on top of their USA customers.
They were THE recommended trigger from Mile High and another Denver 'smith. So am really looking forward to the arrival. Patience... right? Everything right now is patience!
Cheers,
Sirhr
If you get stuck for some reason ready to go but no trigger drop me a line.
Thanks, brother! I am giving the USPS some more time. And the awesome folks at Triggertech will probably come through with another trigger group via a trustworthy shipping route if USPS proves un-worthy. So far, they have been awesome! And worthy of all the recommendations here.
But I can't thank you enough for jumping in. And if the shipping goes t1ts-up and we can't get things out of Canada, I will totally take you up on your offer. A+++++++ for the assist!
Let's give it a few days. This is why SH is the greatest site on the Interwebs!
Sirhr
W3 chassis order in. Thanks @Massoud and John and the rest of the team!
Triggertech has been awesome. We finally wrote off the trigger that has been either lost (or stolen by Cliff Clavin, you worthless POS) in the USPS. They have UPS'd a replacement trigger. I have to say that in terms of communications and really caring about customers... Triggertech has been great.
Now waiting for barrel, but they said several weeks and it's only been a few weeks ;-) So all good there.
I think this summer we'll be putting some holes in holes with a structured barrel.
That's the latest from Mudville!
Sirhr
Triggertech has been awesome. We finally wrote off the trigger that has been either lost (or stolen by Cliff Clavin, you worthless POS) in the USPS. They have UPS'd a replacement trigger. I have to say that in terms of communications and really caring about customers... Triggertech has been great.
Now waiting for barrel, but they said several weeks and it's only been a few weeks ;-) So all good there.
I think this summer we'll be putting some holes in holes with a structured barrel.
That's the latest from Mudville!
Sirhr
Since when is it Mudville and not Schloss Nitrocellulose?
Good point. Well... Schloss Nitrocellulose in late March and Early April is in something we call 'Mud Season." As opposed to November, which is "Stick Season."
But you are right. It is now %$##ing snow season. And I'd rather shave my head with a cheese-grater and chew Reynolds Wrap than deal with more snow season.
So I stand corrected. Schloss Nitrocellulose.
It's an industry term. ;-)
Sirhr
So a KRG Whiskey-3 chassis is inbound right now! Thanks to @Massoud and his awesome team of chassis developers!
And an especially big kudos to Triggertech. After the USPS lost (anyone want to bet stolen?) the trigger group, they had one of their US suppliers down in Clarksville Fedex me a new trigger. Arrived in a few days. Fantastic communication, great folks and now that it's in-hand, I can say a really nice looking trigger. Can't wait to install it. They came highly-recommended by some folks out in Denver and I see why! Because great products + great service makes great customer experience! Keep that in mind for your next build. This is my first Triggertech product. I won't be my last for sure!!
Still trying to get a scope mount made.... But everyone is out flat! So can understand some inquiries going into the ether. I'll start that process in earnest this weekend! Farrell is my first choice!
BTW, this is going way faster than my .14 Eich project... and noone was especially busy then. So loving how the industry is working like a well-oiled machine despite all this 'consternation' in the world.
That's all for now...
Cheers,
Sirhr
And an especially big kudos to Triggertech. After the USPS lost (anyone want to bet stolen?) the trigger group, they had one of their US suppliers down in Clarksville Fedex me a new trigger. Arrived in a few days. Fantastic communication, great folks and now that it's in-hand, I can say a really nice looking trigger. Can't wait to install it. They came highly-recommended by some folks out in Denver and I see why! Because great products + great service makes great customer experience! Keep that in mind for your next build. This is my first Triggertech product. I won't be my last for sure!!
Still trying to get a scope mount made.... But everyone is out flat! So can understand some inquiries going into the ether. I'll start that process in earnest this weekend! Farrell is my first choice!
BTW, this is going way faster than my .14 Eich project... and noone was especially busy then. So loving how the industry is working like a well-oiled machine despite all this 'consternation' in the world.
That's all for now...
Cheers,
Sirhr
Ken Farrell and crew are always a good choice.
and watch those weirdos from Denver..... Prolly try to shoot with you wearing pink shoes..
I just saw a good deal on a McMillian A5 in the PX and am a tad sad to be without a mag BF long action to go with it......
But really, what a crap time to delve into a new caliber and I need to learn to shoot this .22 at 25 yrds before I go searching or building a .300 WM
and watch those weirdos from Denver..... Prolly try to shoot with you wearing pink shoes..
I just saw a good deal on a McMillian A5 in the PX and am a tad sad to be without a mag BF long action to go with it......
But really, what a crap time to delve into a new caliber and I need to learn to shoot this .22 at 25 yrds before I go searching or building a .300 WM
Found this:
Studying Barrel Drift (Structured vs Conventional Barrels)
What is the most effective way of testing barrel drift? Can barrel drift be mitigated without the use of prohibitively heavy barrels? To what degree is heat the largest contributing factor to this phenomenon. Of all the testing that Coastal has done over the last few years, this may be the most...
www.coastalprecisionconsulting.com
Structured barrel ‘walked’ 2x less than a good Bartlein barrel during a fairly fast (controlled) coarse of fire, barrel stayed 17 Def F cooler, and the chamber end of barrel was much cooler.
Not a total convert yet, but this was certainly interesting. I just wish it was not 3x the normal barrel price. Looks like $1,500 plus.
Interesting read. Thank you for posting this piece.
I am hoping when business begins to approach “normal” that we can get some user data for this thread. I found the comments supplied thus far to be very interesting. So thanks again and please post anything else you might find on structured barrels here.
I am hoping when business begins to approach “normal” that we can get some user data for this thread. I found the comments supplied thus far to be very interesting. So thanks again and please post anything else you might find on structured barrels here.
I feel like I want to see more data from that test. Especially chrono and raw group data - because I would expect the 6cm to run hotter than the 6,5 if run at common velocities.
A 50 shot string, with a shot every 12s is probably a bit much to be expected of a shooter, I expected it to be run from a rifle vice, like one would a test barrel. I think a table with group size, and center x,y would go a long way towards convincing me.
I started poking around the website to learn more about the people doing the testing - really just looking for an about us blurb. Instead I found their web store. Can't wait to order my "I'm a product"
A 50 shot string, with a shot every 12s is probably a bit much to be expected of a shooter, I expected it to be run from a rifle vice, like one would a test barrel. I think a table with group size, and center x,y would go a long way towards convincing me.
I started poking around the website to learn more about the people doing the testing - really just looking for an about us blurb. Instead I found their web store. Can't wait to order my "I'm a product"
Have been watching the Youtube videos on structured barrels, seems like there is something of significance here.
Video below posted by Coastal Precision, who wrote the article referenced above, this time with more data, and some interesting commentary:
Most notable was the interview with Paul Phillips, link below, he is a recent winner of the King of 2 Miles competition. Paul Phillips is no dummy, and his remarks were rather positive after shooting it, think he was pleasantly surprised. His resume is rather impressive.
Well... maybe TacomHQ should donate one free barrel to be used in LowLight’s shooting course. Hundreds of students pass through that course, and if it is as good as Mr. Baker says, the orders will stream in!
Who is Paul Phillips you might ask... Just do a YouTube search for “paul phillips king of 2 miles”... the guy is kinda a little famous!
www.vihtavuori.com
Video below posted by Coastal Precision, who wrote the article referenced above, this time with more data, and some interesting commentary:
Most notable was the interview with Paul Phillips, link below, he is a recent winner of the King of 2 Miles competition. Paul Phillips is no dummy, and his remarks were rather positive after shooting it, think he was pleasantly surprised. His resume is rather impressive.
Well... maybe TacomHQ should donate one free barrel to be used in LowLight’s shooting course. Hundreds of students pass through that course, and if it is as good as Mr. Baker says, the orders will stream in!
Who is Paul Phillips you might ask... Just do a YouTube search for “paul phillips king of 2 miles”... the guy is kinda a little famous!
Paul Phillips - Vihtavuori
Paul Phillips was the Adjutant of the US Rifle Team. He served in the United States Marine Corp as an Infantryman and earned his Combat Action Ribbon. After the service, Paul earned a bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice from Michigan State University while also winning the 1996 NRA Long Range...
www.vihtavuori.com
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Have been watching the Youtube videos on structured barrels, seems like there is something of significance here.
Video below posted by Coastal Precision, who wrote the article referenced above, this time with more data, and some interesting commentary:
Most notable was the interview with Paul Phillips, link below, he is a recent winner of the King of 2 Miles competition. Paul Phillips is no dummy, and his remarks were rather positive after shooting it, think he was pleasantly surprised. His resume is rather impressive.
Well... maybe TacomHQ should donate one free barrel to be used in LowLight’s shooting course. Hundreds of students pass through that course, and if it is as good as Mr. Baker says, the orders will stream in!
Who is Paul Phillips you might ask... Just do a YouTube search for “paul phillips king of 2 miles”... the guy is kinda a little famous!
Paul Phillips - Vihtavuori
Paul Phillips was the Adjutant of the US Rifle Team. He served in the United States Marine Corp as an Infantryman and earned his Combat Action Ribbon. After the service, Paul earned a bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice from Michigan State University while also winning the 1996 NRA Long Range...
Thanks for posting this!
I am waiting for Bartelin to deliver a barrel to Tacom... Have everything else. Action, Chassis, scope... Just need a barrel!
Can't wait to try one of these out!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Let us all know what results you get at longer distances when it arrives. Very interested in finding out if it is worth the price difference.
