AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Thanks for all the "Useful" ideas guys!! I think I finally have a handle on the rifle. I have found a couple of things (Other than my poor shooting) that may be part of my problem.

I had a good friend and shooting partner shoot the rifle and his results were pretty much the same as mine. His first comment was, "Your trigger SUCKS buy a new one you cheap ass". However both of us did not have trouble stringing rounds horzontally across the paper. We both are used to ligher triggers so it does take some getting used to.

The first thing we found was, the gun has a tendency to throw the first round out of a fresh clip, usually high. The other thing we found was that if you cycle the rounds through it out or the mag it is changing the seating depth on "Some" of the rounds. (I think Casey said to take a look at that and he was right.) The other thing we found was when shooting off the bipod was to really suck the gun in tight and this also seemed to help. (Another suggestion from one of you guys)

SOoooo.. All in all I have accepted the fact that this rifle is going to be a "Fairly" consistant.7 to 1.5" gun for 5 shots with most of the group being in the 1" range and I can live with that for shooting man sized targets to 700yds.

Agustus,
You and I are in total agreement. This is not my first rodeo and there is no way in hell an off the rack semiauto with all its moving parts will put the bullet "Where its aimed everytime" no matter how damn good your technique is. And that does not mean the gun is broken it just means its not capable of that kind of consistant accuracy period.

 

[Augustus]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

I have found a 1/4 min rifle is really easy for lots of folks to shoot. I have a 308 I keep around as a confidence builder for friends having trouble with their own rifle. If you have an inconsistent rifle it is easy to start questioning your ability.

 

[hlee]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

"About resolution. I cannot resolve a quarter minute; yet, I have quarter minute sights, and, when I take a quarter minute adjustment, I realize a quarter minute of movement. Why?[ ...] The secret is to shoot center of mass."

That is it right there. While you cannot resolve 1/4 minute of angle, the larger target informs on where the center is. You do not have to be able to see the center to know that it is there. Most everyone would be hard-pressed to hit a 0.5" circle with iron sights in the absence of any other landmark (for example a 0.5" circle pasted on a 20ft by 20ft board). Most of us cannot see it. However, with a 10" circle, your eye and your sight have much more to work with.

It struck me, after I made my initial post this morning, that more precise shots may be made with a low power scope by not trying to place a small target (one completely subtended by the cross hair- like a .5" spot) behind the cross hair. I know this from shooting iron sights as a kid (although I did not know the nomenclature at the time- "six o'clock hold"), but that nugget had not made the jump with me when I started shooting with a scope.

For example, I took my LR-308 out to the range a couple of weeks ago for its maiden voyage. I was pleased with the groups turned in with the hornady match ammunition that I was shooting. However, I found that I was not able to consistently place shots on 0.75" dots I had placed outside of the 7" shoot-n-see target. These small dots are completely subtended by the cheap Bushnell scope I have on the rifle. However, I was able to shoot much more consistently with the larger target (even though the center bull's eye is 0.5". The reason for the discrepancy is in the first line of this post.... Shoot center of mass. With the small circles, there is no center of mass to shoot- the target is swallowed by the sight. If I had held off of the small targets (so that I could see them to create a reproducible sight picture), my shooting would have been much more reproducible, and I could have offset my "hold off" by adjusting the scope.

Sterling Shooter, you and I are essentially saying the same thing. However, as a much more experienced shooter, you leave much more unsaid. I, on the other hand (not being a formally trained long range precision shooter), need to explain things to myself (or have them explained) in explicit detail.

 

[hlee]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found a 1/4 min rifle is really easy for lots of folks to shoot. I have a 308 I keep around as a confidence builder for friends having trouble with their own rifle. If you have an inconsistent rifle it is easy to start questioning your ability. </div></div>

The corollary to this being, "it is difficult to diagnose problems with shooter consistency when you have an inconsistent rifle."

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no way in hell an off the rack semiauto with all its moving parts will put the bullet "Where its aimed everytime" no matter how damn good your technique is. And that does not mean the gun is broken it just means its not capable of that kind of consistant accuracy period.
</div></div>
Agree and essentially my points. US Army states in Section 5:15, FM 3-22.9 that dispersion pattern with M16 series rifle may be up to 2 cm apart at 25 meters "without human error" due to the rifle/ammo accuracy limitions. That's about .75 inches.

As a soldier, the axion "bullets always go where the barrel is pointed" was a training phrase I heard most commonly used for "shooter errors" and no of mentioned broken guns either.

When I became a more experienced shooter, I realized that you cannot overcome the inherent limitations or inconsistancies in a rifle/ammo combination, no matter how good your skills. When I instruct, I make it a special point to explain that.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: medcpt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no way in hell an off the rack semiauto with all its moving parts will put the bullet "Where its aimed everytime" no matter how damn good your technique is. And that does not mean the gun is broken it just means its not capable of that kind of consistant accuracy period.
</div></div>
Agree and essentially my points. US Army states in Section 5:15, FM 3-22.9 that dispersion pattern with M16 series rifle may be up to 2 cm apart at 25 meters "without human error" due to the rifle/ammo accuracy limitions. That's about .75 inches.

As a soldier, the axion "bullets always go where the barrel is pointed" was a training phrase I heard most commonly used for "shooter errors" and no of mentioned broken guns either.

When I became a more experienced shooter, I realized that you cannot overcome the inherent limitations or inconsistancies in a rifle/ammo combination, no matter how good your skills. When I instruct, I make it a special point to explain that. </div></div>

The bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed is a fact as important to the experienced shooter as it is to the inexperienced shooter. Whether you accept it as fact or not you nevertheless trust it is true when you adjust the rifle's sights with the expectation to get a good hit at a given distance. After all, the sight's primary purpose is to give us recognition for where the barrel is pointed; and, if the bullet did not always go in the direction the barrel is pointed, the sight would be as moot as it would be untrustworthy. Rack grade rifle or match grade rifle the actions of the shooter are the same and the results are elevated when the shooter makes his actions consistent. When the shooter does not hit where aimed but he recognizes the bullet went where the barrel was pointed, he can begin to properly trouble shoot whereas if he does not accept the bullet went where the barrel was pointed trouble shooting can become an unnecessary ordeal.

 

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Sterling Shooter,
Your correct when you say the bullet goes in the "Direction" the barrel is pointed but "Not" necessarly in the same "Spot".

Putting the round in the same spot each time is dependent not only on the shooter "But" also the rifle and ammo.

If a high master shooter has a rifle that is only capable of shooting a 2 or 3" group at 100yds are you telling us that because he is a "High Master ranked shooter" and does "Everything" correctly that everyone of his rounds will go into the 10 ring at 1000yds or even 600yds???

My son shoots for the all guard team and when he shoots rack grade rifles and ammo his scores are no where close to the ones he shoots with his AR that has a Kreiger match barrel and is shooting 77gr match ammo. Why would that be??? Does he not shoot with the correct technique when using a rack grade rifle?? Or do you think that "Just Maybe" having a top quality match rifle and ammo allows him to shoot to his full potential???

If my memory serves me correctly you stated that, "You use only the best parts and a top notch gun smith and massaged hand loads for your matches" Or something to that affect. So why if the only thing you need is excellent marksmanship skills (And you sure have them as a High master) why not just use a stock SA M1A Or AR15 or wha ever your shooting in your matches and use military ball ammo??

Because what you keep telling us is, its going to shoot in the direction you point it. And like I said I agree with that BUT the bullet may not go "WHERE" its aimed because the rack grade rifle or ammo may not be capable of shooting consistantly into a small group even though you do everything correctly.

Because the rifle or ammo wont shoot into little groups consistantly doesn't mean the rifle or ammo is broke. It just means its not capable of the kind of accuracy required.

I originally just wanted to know if others who had this type of rilfe were experiencing any of the problems that I was having. Several on here gave me some places to look and I did find a couple of things that helped the rifle shoot better.

I honestly believe that if you put this rifle in a mechanical rest it would not shoot consistanly into the same hole at 100yd or even a small group. The rifle will shoot better if you single feed it but then thats not how I will shoot it. LIke I said I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. May you always keep them all in the black!!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

You mentioned you thought the trigger on your rifle was partially to blame for the results you're getting. When we start with the fact the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed, then we must either accept the trigger and learn to use it to get SMOOTH from it, or we must see the trigger as not being acceptable (broken) and replace it. Not beginning with the facts, or not understanding them will paralyze the shooter, to neither progress by replacing the trigger or by overcoming its weakness. This state of indecision is not common with great marksmen. They, very early in their evaluation of equipment, determine whether marksmanship or parts is the cure to whatever errors are being made.

Now, since the new shooter who is still learning how to shoot can not discern a match conditioned rifle's performance from rack grade, this shooter must be presented with the facts, since, without knowledge about the bullet always going in the direction the barrel is pointed, he may be inclined to blame not hitting where aimed with a perfectly good rifle. When this happens marksmanship development comes slowly and sometimes the new shooter becomes uncoachable.

 

[branson1369]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Trigger can be a huge factor sinnce it is the biological components interface to the weapon system. It took me well over 500rds in my MA-TEN build originally to duplicate consistancey similar to my bolt 308. I do recommend if on a tight budget the ALG Dense $65 trigger with a JP yellow spring kit. It will put you between 3 and 3.25# of pull and is a less than 10 minute upgrade

Those with feeding issues are you using small base dies? I had a similar issue until I went to small base dies with my Rock barrel chambered tight (my request) by Predator Custom. After the change 0 issues and the rifle if I do my job is sub 0.5 MOA short and long distance

 

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Sterling Shooter,
I stated that, "Even though the trigger is no match trigger we did not feel it was the problem. We were both able to overcome the trigger pull with out a problem. There was no horzontal stringing usually associated with bad trigger control.

You still did not answer my question about if its all shooter and the rifle shoots where its pointed and you are a high master, why do you need to have a match quality rifle and ammo?? Why not a rack grade rifle and service ammo??

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter,
I stated that, "Even though the trigger is no match trigger we did not feel it was the problem. We were both able to overcome the trigger pull with out a problem. There was no horzontal stringing usually associated with bad trigger control.

You still did not answer my question about if its all shooter and the rifle shoots where its pointed and you are a high master, why do you need to have a match quality rifle and ammo?? Why not a rack grade rifle and service ammo??</div></div>

I don't need match grade to apply marksmanship. I need match grade when shooting against other HM competitors who bring match grade to the firing line inorder to not handicap myself.

 

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Sterling Shooter,
So your admiting that the rifle and ammo "Does" help you shoot better scores and its not all about "Just" marksmanship skills???

That is what we have been trying to say for the last 7 pages. Shooter technique "IS" part of it but you can be the best shooter in the world and if your gun or ammo is only capable of 3 or 4" groups at 100yds you will not be able to keep them all in the black or in a nice group now matter how carefully your aim and technique are.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter,
So your admiting that the rifle and ammo "Does" help you shoot better scores and its not all about "Just" marksmanship skills???

That is what we have been trying to say for the last 7 pages. Shooter technique "IS" part of it but you can be the best shooter in the world and if your gun or ammo is only capable of 3 or 4" groups at 100yds you will not be able to keep them all in the black or in a nice group now matter how carefully your aim and technique are.</div></div>

Marksmanship is not synonymous with accuracy; however, marksmanship has an effect on accuracy; therefore, shooter/target analysis is not dependent upon the rifle meeting any accuracy objective. This means most any rifled long gun with peep sight is acceptable for marksmanship training. It also means shooter target/analysis will always be about shooter error unless the gun is indeed broken in which case shots would have no corollary to the call.

For example, in the eight year period I assisted the USAMU deliver the SDM course, I coached shooters who trained with rack grade M4's, as well as shooters who were issued CMP-USAMU SDMR's. No matter what rifle these folks brought to the firing line, the course of fire was the same; and, since the targets were E types scored as hit or miss, the results with rack grade M4's or SDMR's were similar. The point is, properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pulling the trigger without disturbing aim is what's most important. Being able to associate the group or grouping performance to the fact that the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed is not necessary.

 

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Aren't E type targets silhoutte targets??If so your shooting "Minute of a Man" Not exactly the same as shooting a small groups at longer ranges. (Which is what we were talking about)

I give up!!Your talking apples and I guess I am talking oranges. There is no reasoning with you.

 

[sinister]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

You've written you're not having horizontal stringing but rather vertical groups (11 to 5).

Get it off the bipod. Try using a set of "Saddle" type bags that will prevent the rifle from rolling at all. Use a sandbag at the rear under the stock as well. Use the weight of your head on the stock to keep the rifle from moving around, and put it on the same place every time to prevent different eye relief. Ensure your parallax is properly adjusted.

Have you chronographed your loads to check velocity extreme spread? How do you measure your powder (thrown, trickled)? Is the first round bullet seating in the chamber differently (you've written you're finding length variations)?

You could also try a grid target with a square aiming area.

 

[kujo929]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Sterling shooter, you are much more patient than I. I don't think they are going to get what you are saying. I see shooters all the time wanting to blame the gun or anything else for their accuracy issues. You said it all and anyone who reads this thread all the way through ( as I just did) will likely come to the same conclusion.


On a different note, is the online training on here really $140 plus the monthly fee or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[hlee]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

I think it is that the monthly fee works out to $140 for 1 year. That is how I read it.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

Gas Guns due to the ergonomic design are not as easy to shoot as bolt guns. Sloppy techniques that do not get noticed in a bolt gun, will toss rounds with a gas gun. Sinister Dave pointed out at lot of good advice for driving a gasser.

I think a lot of people here as missing the points made by Sterling Shooter and taking it too literally, or not reading all he is saying.


When I look at an SR or other AR type gun for accuracy, I use a Sinclair Rest - using a foam section to rest the forearm and strap it down to reduce jump, I then rear bag the gun, and ensure it naturally aligns with the target. With the idea being that I am taking as much of ME out of the equation and seeing what the gun/ammo combo does.

Once I know what the gun/ammo combo can do, I know when I shoot in other positions that it is me making errors, not the gun/ammo

Of course unless your shooting groups in a substantial size yor not really seeing this, and IMHO 3rds is not enough. 5 is the min, and 10 the desired number for a group -- and multiple groups need to be shot.

 

[branson1369]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

I agree on the AR being different to shoot and you must master the change in impulse of the rifle. As I stated earlier in the thread it took me personally many more rounds to become consistant with my AR 10 over a bolt gun for accuracy

However, I must disagree that a rest is the way to go and would say it is shooter dependent on what they are used to using. I am much more consistant from a bipod than a rest which with my most recent AR 15 build showed true with groups running 1.25 MOA average from a rest and sub 0.70 MOA from a bipod. Not that a rest is bad I am just much more consistant from a bipod as I am sure others are as well

I will not jump into the 3/5/10 rd group topic as that is a viral as Ford/Chevy and MOA/Mil

 

[Ed-G]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

This has been a great thread. I would like to thank you Sterling Shooter for your great insight, as well as many others.

Now....I'm going to remount a repaired scope on my SR-25, go to the range and be frustrated!

 

[kujo929]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it is that the monthly fee works out to $140 for 1 year. That is how I read it. </div></div>



Nope. Just got a my answer. It is $150 to start counting your first month. And then $10 per month after.

 

[raptor99]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

I am sure I will need more trigger time on the AR10 to master it. I want to thank all of you for all the help and advice that was offered.

I found a couple of things that did help and a thing or two that I needed to change when shooting it.

I feel I need to clarify that the gun "Will" be shot off of a bipod or over a pack. It does have a quad rail that makes it a bear to shoot off of a rest even with the pads on it. Since its going to be a field rifle there won't be a front rest other than mentioned.

Sterling Shooter, Even though during most of this post I felt you and I were sometimes talking apples and oranges (And I got frustrated because we couldn't seem to get on the same page) I do appreciate and respect your opinion. Thanks again, to all of you!!!

 

[fnbrowning]

Re: AR-10 Accuracy Expectations??

This post may not help you tech out your problem. But maybe it will be helpful for you to know what an Armalite with a particular set of mods <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> do with Black Hills 175gr ammo. As always, YMMV.

The image below is a 100yd target from my Armalite AR10A4B. I didn't write down the round count, but you can see it was 10 or more rounds.

It's a 1999 model with a 20" chrome-lined heavy barrel. I will freely admit the rifle has a 2 stage trigger, JP Enterprises free-float tube, and the barrel was cryo-treated by 300 Below, Inc. 175gr Black Hills red box ammo. Oh, and the glass is a much-maligned Springfield Armory 1st Generation Govt Model 4x14x56mm scope.