AR-15 Piston System - Why?

[rcw3]

Piston actuated AR-15's are clearly very popular these days, but for accuracy build ups with a full size rifle I see nothing but potential negatives to a piston drive system over the traditional DI gas system.

I have had numerous requests for us to build piston drive AR-15 uppers, but I keep asking myself whether there is any real benefit for a well maintained full size rifle employing a standard length gas tube and gas system (i.e. not a carbine or pistol system) with a 20" or longer barrel.

With a suppressor, I can see that a piston drive may help keep blow back in check, but if one is not planning on using a suppressor, that's a non-issue.

I would very much like the hear any feedback on this - what's the big draw to the piston drive system?

Robert Whitley

 

[FNARSHOOTER]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I feel no need to build one or convert any of mine.If I want to drive a op rod I would use my Mini 30 or my FNAR.Some people find new gear improves their bragging rights. I would rather keep my out dated stuff and buy ammo .Then spend time shooting not building a better mousetrap(mousegun?)
Scot

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Hmmm, that darn search function must be down again.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm, that darn search function must be down again. </div></div>
It must have been down all week, I think this is the second post about this subject this week.

 

[Tomcat]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Hey - any more information on this topic is good. Just because it has been raised once dosnt forbid it from being raised again.
if you dont want to read it twice, then dont read it.
you have the option to pass.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm, that darn search function must be down again. </div></div>
It must have been down all week, I think this is the second post about this subject this week. </div></div>

Yea, shame on you Robert...spending all your time developing new cartridges that maximize an AR's potential instead of becoming more internet savvy!!

I have no real input on the issue as ARs aren't my thing--but I did just win a GP upper and at the same time built a similar DI rifle (but both are 16" so really not exactly relevant to a question about rifle length GP). I'll be testing and shooting them side by side over the next few months and may have something to add down the road.

 

[paulo_santos]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1723095&page=all

I've had an LMT piston upper for over a year and have close to 10k through it. This thing is clean and is surprisingly accurate. My favorite load for it is the Hornady 55 GR FMJ with 25.5 GR of Benchmark. It consitantly shoots under MOA with the best group being under 3/4 MOA.

I did have some minor carrier tilt, which was evident right away, but it leveled off and it is cosmetic only.

The early piston systems had some issues, but most of those issues have been taken care of, so while the AR15 wasn't designed around the piston, it can work very well with some minor things that I highly recommend:

1. Adams Arms bolt spring. This takes care of the bolt thrust issue.
(In a DI system, when the gas travels down the gas tube, it goes inside the carrier and the gas pushes on the bolt and holds it open for a split second while the extraction begins. With the piston system, there is no gas to hold the bolt open for that split second so supposedly that has caused some bolts to break. That spring holds that bolt open similar to the way the gas holds the bolt open. It makes sense, but I never seen a bolt brake or heard of any bolts braking from the piston owners I've spoken with. I hope I explained it correctly and easy to understand. It is kind of hard to pit it in words.)
2. PWS Enhanced buffer/extension tube/POF buffer/extension tube. This takes care of the carrier tilt. The pads on the carrier are not enough sometimes.
3. PWS Cam Pin.

FYI: a lot if these piston systems are very similar to each other and the carriers are very much interchangeable. Most manufacturers sell spare parts kits.

LMT, LWRC, POF, PWS, and any upper with the Adams Arms system is good to go. And if you want the best opinions about piston uppers, do yourself a favor and ask actual owners, not some piston haters/Internet commandos who have never owned one. And shooting a friend's piston upper is not the same as actually owning one. If given a choice, most piston owners would not go back to DI. That says a lot.

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I will continue to say go with LWRC. Cannot be beat in the AR15 piston game. They have my business for life.

 

[Grump]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I haven't yet and may never fire, much less own, a piston AR.

But I *can* tell you that a genuine Colt HBAR lost most of its extractor spring tension and was failing to extract at right about 5,000 rounds.

For me, it's a heat transfer to the bolt thing. There are just too many other guns and honeydo projects in my foreseeable life for me to expect to get around to some sort of a piston-fed battle carbine.

I would carefully study the carrier tilt factor before choosing one, though. Were it not for the heat, the DI system would be close to perfect. Jameson and others have proven to my satisfaction that the AR DI system can go fully 1,000 rounds without a cleaning. Just not *dirty* enough to make a practical difference, and the white glove crowd is too finicky, IMO. Plus, the straight-line forces of gas forward on the "piston" at the base of the bolt while driving the "cylinder" carrier to the rear is ideal.

 

[bmarc69]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

While I only have around 2500 rounds through my LWRC I have never had a malfunction of any kind. Just yesterday it went over 1500 rounds since it's last cleaning.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmarc69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I only have around 2500 rounds through my LWRC I have never had a malfunction of any kind. Just yesterday it went over 1500 rounds since it's last cleaning.</div></div>

Try about that many in a day, every day for a week, and you'll change your mind. Even though powders have gotten cleaner since I was in, they still create crap in the guts of the rifle. And of course heat 'bakes' it in there.

The gas piston systems get a lot of grief but IMO, they are the best short term solution out there. They would be a good alternative to many "wannabe" systems out there being tested right now. The HK 416 is a prime example IMO.

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I've got quite a bit more than 2500 rounds through my LWRC. Only had 1 issue. With that damn PMAG. (Still not a believer in those) Changed to the HK mags and since she hasn't had a single issue. Now granted the good ol Corps taught me clean your rifle after every time you shoot and I still do. Although it is not necessary. The way I see it, if you are just a weekend shooter, there is no need for a piston setup. However, if you run a suppressor or shoot the dog piss out of your AR and are going to be rolling in the mud or use it for duty, then piston reliability is the way to go.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Being a user of a suppressor on a 14.5" DI carbine the Gas Piston route is very attractive to me.
The problem I run into is that for every solution that GP brings to the table, it seem to also add one.

PRO Gas Piston:
- Cleaner Operation
- Cooler Operation
- Potential Increase in Reliability due to the above two items.

CON Gas Piston:
- Parts availability / not a Milspec standard
- Carrier tilt
- The whole bolt unlocking under pressure issue.
- Reciprocating mass introduced above the barrel during the firing sequence.
(Once of the design goals of DI was to remove this in order to cut down on parts & increase accuracy.)

I have no dog in the fight, but every time I start thinking about taking the plunge, I always come back to the same thing.
Why?
Bottom line, because it is a hell of a lot quicker and easier to clean a GP system.
In my eyes at least, the increased reliability argument is negligible at best.
With the SOPMOD increased reliability kit or even better, the LMT Enhanced BCG, good springs and Heavy Buffer, the reliability argument gets pretty weak IMO.

At the end of the day, I always come to the same conclusion.
Just suck it up and get your hands dirty.

 

[phillik747]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I don't have a Gas piston AR but I have a HK G36 that is of course a gas piston. Just like everyone here states that the gas piston stays a hell of a lot cleaner than your traditional AR. I have a standard A2 style Bushmaster AR and I don't shoot it as much because of the amount of junk buildup in the action. I have some Vietnam vets in the family and they said they hated the M16 over the M14 (different topic) due to having to clean it all the time, or clear jams. I personally believe that is due to the gas tube spewing junk back into a very tight tolerance action.

I talked to a Navy Seal a while ago and I was asking him about the HK 416. We can all agree that thing is way to expensive but he said that the LWRC would be his second pick.

Kyle

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

See I don't understand how people can make those same arguments. Whats parts aren't available? BCG's, and the piston system itself are available for the price of the item plus shipping. Carrier tilt has been eliminated in a piston dedicated AR.(POF,LWRC)I've never heard of a bolt unlocking? I'm not sure what that means, please explain. And as far as accuracy, I think the argument can be given that there is no accuracy decrease with a dedicated piston system. I have to stress though that I am arguing for a dedicated piston AR. I only have experience with those systems. Not the DIY install kits that are sold separately. You go to POF and LWRC and both have systems that can hold under MOA. I'm not sure what an acceptable accuracy standard is for an AR system but I'm pretty damn sure I can qual expert by USMC standards with my LWRC M6A3. Why pay for a "reliability kit" when you can get that reliability out of a dedicated piston gun? And as far as cutting parts, you have LESS parts in a piston system! That means less parts to fail! The testing has been done, both the USMC and Big Army have reliability tests that show the piston AR trounced the DI system! And as far as I know the main argument against the AR is the reliability in adverse conditions. The piston solves that problem. I for one will NEVER go back to a DI setup. Now if I could just get an KAC SR15E3 lower for my M6A3......... gotta love those ambi controls! Hint hint LWRC!!!!!

 

[PLeighton]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never heard of a bolt unlocking? I'm not sure what that means, please explain.</div></div>
Hope this answer's your question:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paulosantos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Adams Arms bolt spring. This takes care of the bolt thrust issue.
(In a DI system, when the gas travels down the gas tube, it goes inside the carrier and the gas pushes on the bolt and holds it open for a split second while the extraction begins. With the piston system, there is no gas to hold the bolt open for that split second so supposedly that has caused some bolts to break. That spring holds that bolt open similar to the way the gas holds the bolt open. It makes sense, but I never seen a bolt brake or heard of any bolts braking from the piston owners I've spoken with. I hope I explained it correctly and easy to understand. It is kind of hard to pit it in words.)</div></div>

I'll leave the accuracy arguement to others, but the root of it is that by having less reciprocating mass and only the gas tube contacting the reciever results in a platform that is inherently more accurate.
I for one would really like to know whether or not the accuracy arguement has any validity.
Do any of the high end custom shops that specialize in precision weapons use piston setups?
(ie, GAP, APA, etc.)

 

[rescueswimmer]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Bigboss,

To the Op I have 2 Osprey drop in piston kits. I love them. I have had no issue with them with nearly 5k rounds between the two of them.

Why did I go piston. You can't argue that a gun that is cleaner and runs cooler will outlast a D.I. Gun, With that being said most of us will never have any issues with a DI gun for the round counts we put through them. When my guns were in DI form I never had one issue of any type.

So why change. I changed for the reason of I don't enjoy cleaning my AR's other guns yes my AR no. This thing after 2500 rounds before I decided I should wipe down the BCG and clean the chamber. I bet It took all of 5 minutes to do. 2500 Rounds of DI I would have been in for some work to get it nice and clean. Is this a a good reason to switch. For me it was.

The downside to this is If I'm at a shoot and I break a piston component. I'm SOL Unless I cannibalize another gun. With that being said. That is the reason I went with the osprey. It has very few parts and the parts it has appear to be pretty bullet proof. Hope this helps a little

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Thank you for explaining the unlocking bolt. Learned something new today. Now as for having ever heard of it happening? Not that I can recall. Maybe in early models when it was still in development for the AR, but as far as modern systems, I haven't heard of it. Accuracy? Well hell, you and I both know that can be argued til the day we die. Custom shops using piston systems? It's a custom shop, they make what you pay them to make and they make it the best they can. Rescue: glad to hear you like your gat. I will however continue to argue that a gun that is subjected to more heat and more grit will break down quicker than one that is cool and clean. I will agree with you however that most people will never have a problem with any DI gun they choose to buy. For the average plinker/paper puncher, it is a tried and true system that works. That is true. But for extreme duty use or for one who puts hundreds of rounds in a day through their weapon, then I believe piston is the way to go. There is a reason, that each branch of the military stresses weapons cleaning. Because the DI AR loses reliability the dirtier it gets. No one likes having to clear a jam or misfeed in the middle of a firefight. A piston system helps prevent those things from happening by canceling out the number one cause of jams and misfeeds after magazines. As to heat, hang fires or cook offs are possible in a DI weapon that puts a lot of rounds downrange. A piston helps with that, I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it helps. Heat breaks things down. It is not good for the weapon. We both know about the cleaning aspect of piston systems. Which is why in this post as well as the other one, I said I believe for a shooter that goes to the range every now and then a drop in kit is the way to go. However if, you want the best of the best, spend the coin on the dedicated piston AR's and taste how good the kool-aid is. You won't go back.

 

[meestermurphy]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

My best friend has a PWS upper, and loves the thing. But for the price he got his upper for, i built my upper using a Noveske Recon barrel and my lower. To this date i have not had a failure with my AR.

EZ

 

[VKC]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Well the U.S. military has conducted several reliability tests for gas direct impingement M4 and M16s. In all the tests the M4/M16 finished LAST compared to piston systems.

In Army reliability testing, when compared against H&K 416, the M16/M4 had 2-3x more stoppages. The M16/M4 had 5,000 rounds between stoppages. The H&K 416 had 10,000 to 15,000 rounds between stoppages.

When compared against H&K 416, XM8, FNH SCAR in sandstorm conditions, again the M4/M16 finished last. All the most reliable rifles tested had piston systems. With firing 60,000 rounds per model with multiple carbines...XM8 (127 stoppages), FNH SCAR (226), H&K 416 (233), and M4 again last/worst (882 stoppages).

In the perfect environment with well lubed and clean weapons, like at an indoor shooting range, almost all rifles function adequately. But in extreme climates, either very humid and wet or very dry and dusty/sandy or extreme cold, weapons malfunction. So lets look at the wealthy modernized countries in these extreme climates, who have their choice of assault rifles, and see what they chose.

- Israel (desert) replaced M16 with Tavor TAR-21 piston modular rifle.
- Singapore (tropical rainforest) replaced M16 with SCAR piston modular rifle.
- Sweden (nordic) H&K 416 piston rifle.
- Switzerland (nordic) Sig 550 or Sig 510, both piston rifles.

But in the perfect protected environment, like at the shooting range, and when you have plenty of time to clean and lube your weapon...Yes, I agree no reason to have a piston rifle.

 

[Asm1]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Lucky I have had both and I like both DI and Piston Guns,I look for reliability 1st and accuracy 2Nd,I do not shoot 5000 rounds before I clean my DI gun,I do shoot 200 plus normally,But I have went 600plus.

The DI has the closest SEMI to bolt gun accuracy I know of in a SEMI auto.I did testing and 1MOA at 100 yards is not always 1MOA at 500 yards,My DI gun has more accuracy and consistency at distance than my Piston Gun.
You show me a piston that will produce the accuracy of my DI and I will buy it.


There are some things I have done to improve my DI performance,LMT enhanced 3 port carrier,Rifle gas system an 18" barrel these have reduced the gas pressure and My weapon runs reliable and cleaner with hotter loads,still gets dirtier than piston gun no doubt .Just another option if you want to step up the DI guns with better purpose built gas system.

I like DI and I keep my oil changed and know how to maintain a weapon DI or piston they all must be maintained..

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

First time I saw an AR-10 after 20 or 30 rds (maybe more) and it was immaculate clean.

Cleaning the M16 or AR15 is part of the reason I don't enjoy shooting it anymore.

Would be nice to get a conversion system.

Anyone got a link to various places that have these?

 

[PLeighton]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

+ 1000 on the LMT Enhanced Bolt Carrier Group.
One of the best products that I have found for the platform.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LMT's enhanced bolt family is designed to improve historical problems with ejection, extraction and lack of function in harsh environmental conditions. Enhanced carriers incorporate a longer dwell time allowing barrel pressure to be greatly reduced and promoting easier extraction. The enhanced bolts have a more resilient coating and refined heat treat, as well as the cartridge case being fully supported by the bolt face.</div></div>

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Dr. Phil,

Thanks for those pics. I'm intrigued by the double springs (full auto issue?) and polished surfaces of the bolt. Easier to clean that? I hope.

Aside from this, my problems have always been down in the upper side ahead of the receiver lugs where carbon gets built up between them and the barrel.

 

[Asm1]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

The carrier has an extra gas port to dump gas The bolt is just a plus .

If you use dish washing soap and hot water your stuff will come clean like you never thought possible.I clean my bolt/carrier and lugs/barrel With soap and hot water .I finish it off with normal barrel cleaning after ,if the water is good and hot it will evaperate off faster.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First time I saw an AR-10 after 20 or 30 rds (maybe more) and it was immaculate clean.

Cleaning the M16 or AR15 is part of the reason I don't enjoy shooting it anymore.

Would be nice to get a conversion system.

Anyone got a link to various places that have these? </div></div>
Biggest thing is don;t buy the conversion kits buy the already piston rifle. The kits will never be as good as the LMT or POFs (Buy a complete upper and call it good)

 

[bustin]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rcw3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

I have had numerous requests for us to build piston drive AR-15 uppers, but I keep asking myself whether there is any real benefit for a well maintained full size rifle employing a standard length gas tube and gas system (i.e. not a carbine or pistol system) with a 20" or longer barrel.



Robert Whitley


</div></div>
Some may not know exactly what you do Robert, the quote above should give some indication though. For accuracy rigs like you build there is no way I would consider a piston system, for SBRs or suppressed maybe but a high-power rifle I don't think it would be a good idea.

 

[JPaul]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

For tactical comps and SBR's, piston all the way.

For precision and maybe AR-10 type rifles, DI. Guys with precision bolt rigs are cleaning their rifles every 50rds anyway, what is an extra few wipes.

I have put through about 400rds through my AR-10 carbine and all i have felt that really needed to be cleaned is the bolt, 308s seem to stay cleaner, except when a suppressor is in use.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPCactus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For tactical comps and SBR's, piston all the way.

For precision and maybe AR-10 type rifles, DI. Guys with precision bolt rigs are cleaning their rifles every 50rds anyway, what is an extra few wipes.

I have put through about 400rds through my AR-10 carbine and all i have felt that really needed to be cleaned is the bolt, 308s seem to stay cleaner, except when a suppressor is in use.
</div></div>

This made me chuckle... who is cleaning what every 50 rounds ?

I see no difference between my DI AR10s and my Piston Drive 308s... my accuracy is the same.

 

[The War Wagon]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I bought my POF for the best reason there is - because I could.

I have three other DI rifles - I'd owned DI rifles since 1990. I had the money, I liked the overall quality of the POF rifle, so I got one.

This was June of '08 - it was a Gen.II to Gen.III transiition rifle (still had the Gen.I owners manual!) - and it still needed a few minor details addressed;

- added a BCM extractor upgrade to it
- swapped out the carbine spring & buffer, for an SSS flatwire spring and H2 buffer
- just RECENTLY swapped out the buffer tube for the PWS enhanced buffer tube
- swapped out the Timney trigger for an RRA 2-stage (the Timney is FANTASTIC for tack driving or hunting - not so much so, for a defense carbine).

It's heavy, especially upfront; the recoil impulse is not unmanageable, but it IS different - the standoff is a GOOD 2 1/2" at 7 yards because of the Predator rail, <span style="font-weight: bold">BUT</span>... it's scary accurate (Lord knows it ain't because of the shooter!), I love shooting it, and it does clean up easy, as advertised!

It ain't a Star Trek Phaser on setting 16

, but until they INVENT one, it'll still be fun to shoot. I trust my life to it, but I'd NEVER recommend it for a first rifle - or ONLY rifle. It is a pleasant diversion.

 

[chainring]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Got both, like both - and they are all suppressed 100% of the time.

I think the original purpose for developing piston-driven stuff was to create reliable shorties. Then people wanted pistons on their normal rifles. Whatever.

The LWRC is easier to clean because of the one-piece carrier, and the uber slick finish. The fact that it runs at a lower temp and only deals with a jet of hot backpressure instead of being cycled by gas is an undeniable benefit, but my Noveske stuff has been more accurate. If I had to pick one rifle, it would be the piston - my Noveske used to get sluggish and need to be cleaned, but my LWRC M6A3 truck/hog hunting/3 gun rig goes for months at a time without any lube or cleaning. Now I just need their new M6-SPR and a REPR and I would finally be satisfied...or would I?

 

[scotharr]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

In response to Robert's question, if enough customers want it and you can make a profit doing so, why wouldn't you provide piston system uppers? That said, I have tried a few piston systems and chose to stick with DI. I have no interest in proprietary systems that make it difficult to replace barrels (and potentially other parts if the company goes out of business) and offer no benefit to my style of shooting. I want a gun I can give to my grandchildren...knowing they can find replacement parts forever. A Wylde chamber and rifle length gas system have proven completely reliable.

For short barrels & suppressed, I understand the logic. But, if you want a piston system, why not buy one designed from the ground up to be one? For example, bolt carrier groups for well-designed piston systems run on rails to prevent carrier tilt. To each his own, but I hope people realize traditional rifle length systems are incredibly reliable and have no problems to be fixed. Most of the reliablity issues are centered on the M4 (& AR-10s?) not the original M16

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

No a big fan of pistons in M16FOW architecture.

Want a piston, get a system designed from the ground up -- that has bolt rails...

 

[Unknown]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I think customer demand for piston rifles is a valid reason for making them. I'm not one of the people who demand them though.

I'm one of the people in the "don't fix it if it works" camp. I have used various piston rifles, and the AR system. In all the years (30-35 years) I have been using the AR's DI system, it has worked fine for me. When it quits working properly, I'll look for another system.

That being said, I understand the various reasons some people want a piston system. Many (if not all) the reasons are as valid as my "don't fix it if it works" rationale.

I think it is largely a "Ford or Chevy" sort of argument. If your rifle works, and you are happy with it, whichever system it runs on is a good system.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I have to keep forcing myself back on track with this subject. The only reason I want a piston is for reliability under high volumes of fire. More volume than you would encounter even in a heavy season of competition shooting.

My personal opinion is that so far as I've seen, piston systems haven't improved on accuracy. So, if accuracy is your goal and you are getting reliability in what you shoot, then the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule would apply.

That said, for a standard rifle, I would go with a piston system if I had the bucks at the time.

 

[zscurlock]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPCactus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For tactical comps and SBR's, piston all the way.

For precision and maybe AR-10 type rifles, DI. Guys with precision bolt rigs are cleaning their rifles every 50rds anyway, what is an extra few wipes.

I have put through about 400rds through my AR-10 carbine and all i have felt that really needed to be cleaned is the bolt, 308s seem to stay cleaner, except when a suppressor is in use.
</div></div>

This made me chuckle... who is cleaning what every 50 rounds ?

I see no difference between my DI AR10s and my Piston Drive 308s... my accuracy is the same.</div></div>


+1 I clean my bolt gun when I feel the accuracy falls off. I was at 525 rounds (from my last cleaning) on Saturday and put nine rounds of Fiocchi 175mk under 3/8 of a inch.

On the DI vs. Piston. I would recommend the piston to anybody using a suppressor or wanting a more reliable cleaner running sub 12.5" gun. On 16" and especially 18" guns even with the suppressor I like the DI. Also, in my experience not all piston systems are created equal once you put a suppressor on the end of them.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Piston guns actually don't like to be canned...

Smaller gas port DI guns work okay for cans.

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Tag

 

[DeathExpress]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

I dunno if this has been said already but with a gas piston you'll never get gas in your face when shooting suppressed. A big +1 in my book. And yes the rifle had a gas buster....

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

For those who use a gasbuster with a can, try RTVing the Gasbuster. I did and I got zero gas in my face.

Also, I have a couple of LMT enhanced carriers. Just the carriers. (Bolt is too goofy and nonstandard for my liking.) They have a smoother recoil impulse and if you look at both the cam-way geometry and the bleed off ports, you can see how different it is compared to the standard AR carrier. Mine run noticeably cleaner than my other carriers. The newest version of the LMT Enhanced has some weird coating that just sucks up lube. It's hard to describe, but it makes it so you don't get the DI slurry of carbon and lube.

Some things about pistons.

-They use more parts than DI.
-They haven't been standardized like the original DI AR-15/M16 design. (Too many systems with no real unified system. Who knows who will win and if you can get those parts 5-10years from now.)

 

[KYS]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Piston guns actually don't like to be canned...

Smaller gas port DI guns work okay for cans. </div></div>

Can you go into more detail please? I want to know more!
Why would the DI guns have a selector setting for Suppressed mode of fire?

 

[KYS]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPCactus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For tactical comps and SBR's, piston all the way.

For precision and maybe AR-10 type rifles, DI. <span style="color: #FF0000">Guys with precision bolt rigs are cleaning their rifles every 50rds anyway</span>, what is an extra few wipes.

I have put through about 400rds through my AR-10 carbine and all i have felt that really needed to be cleaned is the bolt, 308s seem to stay cleaner, except when a suppressor is in use.
</div></div>

Not so much

 

[zscurlock]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Piston guns actually don't like to be canned...

Smaller gas port DI guns work okay for cans.</div></div>

Don't really agree with your first statement, as it is to broad. I have found some piston systems work great when suppressed and some fail to the point that they might as well be DI.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DeathExpress</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno if this has been said already but with a gas piston you'll never get gas in your face when shooting suppressed. A big +1 in my book. And yes the rifle had a gas buster....</div></div>

Thats kinda of a myth. It is definitely less gas though.

 

[Arevalosocom]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

Have a LWRC M6A2,crown @ 12" and end of flashider @ 14".

Run a AAC SPR/M4 on it from day one.

Never cleaned it, oiled it, nothing.

Runs like a champ, suppressed or unsuppressed.

Never had a FTE,FTF,anything.....

I would never go back to DI

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My personal opinion is that so far as I've seen, piston systems haven't improved on accuracy. So, if accuracy is your goal and you are getting reliability in what you shoot, then the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule would apply.

</div></div>

One of the many intersting posts in this thread.........

I'm a little biased, but between the POF's extra rigidity at the barrel nut/upper receiver junction and the 1:10 Rock Creek barrels I'd have to assume many that talk about POF guns like they know what they are referring to really don't.

POF's gas regulator at the block having a setting for normal and supressed also makes for good can juju.

I do work for POF, so take that for what its worth. Having said that, I can tell you that I'm no used car salesman and I'd draw unemployment before I'd lie for a paycheck......

If one of our 308's isn't an moa shooter or better there's something wrong with it that needs to be adressed (as long as the driver/ammo is too).

 

[david777]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My personal opinion is that so far as I've seen, piston systems haven't improved on accuracy. So, if accuracy is your goal and you are getting reliability in what you shoot, then the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule would apply.

</div></div>

One of the many intersting posts in this thread.........

I'm a little biased, but between the POF's extra rigidity at the barrel nut/upper receiver junction and the 1:10 Rock Creek barrels I'd have to assume many that talk about POF guns like they know what they are referring to really don't.

POF's gas regulator at the block having a setting for normal and supressed also makes for good can juju.

I do work for POF, so take that for what its worth. Having said that, I can tell you that I'm no used car salesman and I'd draw unemployment before I'd lie for a paycheck......

If one of our 308's isn't an moa shooter or better there's something wrong with it that needs to be adressed (as long as the driver/ammo is too). </div></div>

My POF 16" P308 is sub MOA, just a great rifle. It seems to be very well engineered and with the enhancements / coatings / etc, it is a step forward by design.

Whether the after market stuff is in the same level, the jury is still out. I have the AA and CMMG kits, they function fine but in my case, the rifles they are on will probably never see the sustained use to really know. Accuracy seems to be about the same and the cooler cleaner chamber is really the selling point.

On a side note sobrbiker883, ask Frank if he ever plans to offer a 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem option on the P308 platform........ I mentioned it Chris a couple of times and I may of well been talking to a yellow pages telemarketer from India...........

Anyway, kudos to POF, I am impressed with their function.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On a side note sobrbiker883, ask Frank if he ever plans to offer a 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem option on the P308 platform........ I mentioned it Chris a couple of times and I may of well been talking to a yellow pages telemarketer from India...........

Anyway, kudos to POF, I am impressed with their function. </div></div>

Patience grasshopper........good things will come to those who wait. You do know Nomad won the Oregon Sniper match last month with a 6.5 Creedmoor POF, right?
There are many cool things on the table, we just need to get caught up on what we've got going and then branch into new territory.

Chris is a good guy, he just suffers the long term effects of being the entire functional sales department since Frank was in his garage.......

 

[david777]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On a side note sobrbiker883, ask Frank if he ever plans to offer a 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem option on the P308 platform........ I mentioned it Chris a couple of times and I may of well been talking to a yellow pages telemarketer from India...........

Anyway, kudos to POF, I am impressed with their function. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> grasshopper........good things will come to those who wait. You do know Nomad won the Oregon Sniper match last month with a 6.5 Creedmoor POF, right? </div></div>

That would be the shit. I believe there is a good size market for a 6.5 out here. I have a POF in every caliber offered (3), help me get a fourth my friend.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chris is a good guy, he just suffers the long term effects of being the entire functional sales department since Frank was in his garage....... </div></div>
Just giving him a little shit, he has been very helpful as well most of the time.

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: AR-15 Piston System - Why?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

On a side note sobrbiker883, ask Frank if he ever plans to offer a 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Rem option on the P308 platform........ I mentioned it Chris a couple of times and I may of well been talking to a yellow pages telemarketer from India...........

Anyway, kudos to POF, I am impressed with their function. </div></div>


First things first, There are a lot of ignorant statements in this whole thread!!!!

2nd, we are doing a 6.5 creedmoor group buy right now for another few days. We won't be doing it again.