AR accuracy??

[RTH1800]

I have had trouble getting top notch accuracy out of my AR platform rifles.
I have top of the line glass and iron. (NF, S&B,KAC and Les Baer)
I can get some good groups, but I cannot be CERTAIN of it.
I have bolt guns that I can get consistantly great groups with.
With the AR types I can get a good group now and then. I get many sub MOA at 400 yards then have one flyer that opens the group to 2 moa.
I have read everything I can find on AR shooting and some of it helped.
Yesterday I shot several groups at 400 yards under an inch with my bolt gun and the SR 25 shot only one under MOA. I would guess that many were near that except for the flyer. Could just be out anywhere, not one spot.
Can anyone get consistant sub moa out of an AR with NO flyers?
I just do not see much use for me to own one when I cannot get them to be predictable for all shots. I have made some long range kills on crows and coyotes with them, but not like a bolt gun. I know they are not bolt guns, but if one shot in 10 makes it 2 moa, then it is a 2 moa rifle in my opinion. Most of the semi auto shooters I know will tell me how great their's shoots, but are a little vague when pressed on details and I think are mostly satisfied when it goes bang. Many have not really shot a target at any range.
Any suggestions?

 

[RH4540]

Re: AR accuracy??

Do you think it may be the difference in the trigger pull?

 

[redbullitt]

Re: AR accuracy??

Good point. Some of the AR triggers, especially the two stage triggers IMHO feel very different compared to bolt guns and take some getting used to.

Ammunition?

 

[pupdawg]

Re: AR accuracy??

This is just my opinion on the matter so take it for what its worth...

AR platforms seem to show more inconsistencies when they aren't held consistently. I like to call them "bitchy" rifles cause if you don't hold them exactly the same way every shot, they get fussy. Couple that with the assumption that you have movement (gas just starting to unlock the bolt) where as in a bolt gun there is none.

The rifle should always recoil straight back into your shoulder. With bolt guns this isn't as critical, but for some reason with the AR and its "pistol grip" it is. It takes practice and really getting to know the platform to get near "bolt gun" consistent with it. To add I don't think the AR will EVER be "bolt gun" consistent, its just the nature of the beast, but you can drive it pretty damn close to keep up.

It's just a steeper learning curve VS a bolt gun. I mean a person that has NEVER shot before could take a bolt gun and make some what consistent groups by the end of the day... not so with the AR, I'd bet my bottom dollar on that. Just shoot, shoot, shoot and It'll come together. Again, this is all just my opinion but I hope it helps anyway.

 

[edwin907]

Re: AR accuracy??

Here is a 20 round semi-rapid fire (23-26 sec) group from my SPR Mod0, at 100 yards. Bipod, OPS 12th, MK262 ammo, beautiful day with light winds.

The rifle

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR accuracy??

AR's are a whole diferent animal than boltguns.....

 

[RobertB]

Re: AR accuracy??

Nice group. Looks like MOA to me.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: AR accuracy??

yeah you have to shoot them alot and REALLY phocus on body position, grip, etc. you can't slack anywhere or you'll throw one. I actually like gas guns, and almost prefer them to bolt to about 900-1000. But i have to shoot a lot to stay consistant with em.

 

[ogonzalez13]

Re: AR accuracy??

I am Kind of new to Shooting AR-10 platforms but I recently purchased a GAP Built AR-10 From another hide member and have found it to be as mentioned above "bitchy". I own Many 1/2 MOA Bolt guns and have no problem shooting those consitently. I have tried many types of shooting techniques with the GAP AR-10 and have found that when shooting of a bipod and holding a rear bag as well as griping the pistol grip like you would a pistol and squeezing the triger with the crease of my first joint, I get me most consistent 5 Shot Groups, 1/2 to 3/4 MOA. Hope this helps.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AR accuracy??

Thank you all for the input. I am sure the accuracy is there, I am just not getting it out. I will just keep shooting and working on form.
RTH

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AR accuracy??

I did get some better groups last night. One of 5 shots 2" at 400 and one of 5 shots at 600 of 5". I also had some at 600 as large as 8" for 5 shots. I may try a bipod. Just shooting prone with a sling and front hand rest.
RTH

 

[Tomcat]

Re: AR accuracy??

AR's are not sub moa guns. Get used to it.

I seriously doubt anyone anyone who claims sub moa accuracy with a production level AR and commercial grade ammo.
There are plenty of sub moa AR's, but they are custom builds with handloads. Or, more likely someone shoots one sub moa group in twenty and thinks they are a sub moa shooter.

Edwin - where did you shoot that? I would like to see it done. I live in Marietta. PM me, we can go to my range and put some
Black Hills ammo through it. This is a friendly and serious invite. I have spend alot of money in search of a accurate AR and have never seen it. (Production guns not handbuilds)


I have never never seen a commercial AR shoot consistently sub moa. I am drawing fire here. But my rational is - they are combat grade weapons made to production specs - so they can be mass produced ie: these are not hand fitted weapons. - why on earth would a manufacturer make a highly accurate AR for general purpose use in a price driven market?

 

[BCP]

Re: AR accuracy??

Pretty much any AR with a free floating barrel will be sub MOA with match ammo, bull will be about half moa if you do your part.

RRA bull upper rifles are especially accurate for the price.

My RRA coyote rifle will shoot moa with 55 grain PMC 6.49 a box ammo give or take. Black hills 52 grain match shot especially well in it, 1" groups at 200.

I think I have around 3k rounds through it now, so it's starting to open up a little though.

The key is having ammunition that is consistent for them, a lot of people just buy boxes and boxes of whatever they can get on sale and then wonder why it doesn't shoot as well as they hoped.

And you need a good rest too, a friend of mine claimed his was a POS because it couldn't shoot dime sized groups with a cardboard box as a rest.

I'll be going shooting either friday or saturday, I'll bring back targets if you want.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did get some better groups last night. One of 5 shots 2" at 400 and one of 5 shots at 600 of 5". I also had some at 600 as large as 8" for 5 shots. I may try a bipod. Just shooting prone with a sling and front hand rest.
RTH </div></div>

I would be perfectly happy with those groups.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AR accuracy??

I am not saying I am unhappy, just want to get what is there. My rifles are Les Baers and KAC SR 25. Ammo is BH and FGMM. Should be good. I can say that for field use, I will not take a rifle out if it will not shoot MOA. I will switch to a bolt gun and give up firepower before loosing that much accuracy. I will shoot more this weekend.
Thank you.
BTW that 20 shot group is really something.

 

[DocB]

Re: AR accuracy??

rth,

Try one of the RRA Varmint models if you want a consistent AR. Like anything else; garbage in, garbage out as far as ammo goes. If feeding from the mag, is any particular round out of the mag? ARs are notorious for throwing the first or last shot somewhere else.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Bullseyelr]

Re: AR accuracy??

I do not gree with the "AR's are not sub moa guns. Get used to it" comment. I realize the way they work will not be like a bolt gun, but I have a DPMS SASS, 18" brl, free-floated, standard trigger, Leupold VX 3 LRT, AAC suppressor, and using handloads. (175 gr. SMK). I am consistently getting this size group (pictured) at 100 yards in a 5 shot group. I know these rifles are capable of sub-moa groups with the right ammo (match or handloads) so I think using the steady, easy trigger pull is a factor. I use the same procedures I would use with my bolt guns but I am even more carefull with the SASS trigger since it is NOTHING like my bolt guns. Using the right ammo helps too. Are you using handloads or match ammo or what? Try handloads....good luck....(I wrote <span style="font-weight: bold">178</span> SMK on the target but meant to write <span style="font-weight: bold">175</span> SMK)....also, you should try using a bipod and a rear bag.

[/img]

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AR accuracy??

Thats a group, why are they always centered?
Smile!!!

 

[pagana]

Re: AR accuracy??

No one has spoken about the huge performance difference between the 15 and 10 style platforms. The 15 is much easier to produce a rifle whose inherent accuracy is sub MOA but not so for the 10. The larger brethren do not have the same rigidity between barrel and receiver and basically want to come apart each time they are fired. All kinds of assembly details need to be addressed with a 10 to get it to perform as well as a basic 15. Then there is the universal issue of lock time. Bolt gun avg.-5ms, AR avg.-10ms = more movement when firing a shot. Pull feel is also an issue, but a Geiselle or X-treme can get you to 4ms with as little as a 1.25-1.5lb. pull weight. If your Baer has a Jewell in it, it likely has a lock time approaching 14ms. Try one of the other triggers in it 1st and I would bet that platform would provide groups moving more toward your bolt gun. The KAC would need a littany of other things done to achieve that accuracy.

 

[Bullseyelr]

Re: AR accuracy??

As rth1800 said ("Thats a group, why are they always centered?
Smile!!!")....it is because I always center it up before I get shooting, which is usually about 1/4 moa off center for the first cold bore shot.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AR's are not sub moa guns. Get used to it.

I seriously doubt anyone anyone who claims sub moa accuracy with a production level AR and commercial grade ammo.
There are plenty of sub moa AR's, but they are custom builds with handloads. Or, more likely someone shoots one sub moa group in twenty and thinks they are a sub moa shooter.

Edwin - where did you shoot that? I would like to see it done. I live in Marietta. PM me, we can go to my range and put some
Black Hills ammo through it. This is a friendly and serious invite. I have spend alot of money in search of a accurate AR and have never seen it. (Production guns not handbuilds)


I have never never seen a commercial AR shoot consistently sub moa. I am drawing fire here. But my rational is - they are combat grade weapons made to production specs - so they can be mass produced ie: these are not hand fitted weapons. - why on earth would a manufacturer make a highly accurate AR for general purpose use in a price driven market?

</div></div>

Your whole post is a contradiction."AR's are not sub moa guns. Get used to it." But then you go on to say,"There are plenty of sub moa AR's,but they are custom builds with handloads".

Seems to me the same is true of bolt guns,buy crap,feed it crap,and what do you get?

Too bad you don't live out this way,I have a 6x45 that has changed a few guys opinions,nothing special,Benchmark bbl(first AR they ever did),old school yhm FF rail,Jewell trigger.Wears an ACOG NSN model.All I shoot are my coyote and varmint loads,65gr Vmax with 27gr H335 @ 2900fps.Hardly a super custom with match ammo.I let a couple of our SH members fire it at the Kenmore range near Seattle,they had no problem finding the X-ring with the first shots out of a gun they never fired before,one had never fired an AR in his life.

BTW,it has a 16" heavy,not bull,barrel.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR accuracy??

What kind of load was that bullseye?

 

[Bullseyelr]

Re: AR accuracy??

SMK 175 BTHP with Winchester brass, CCI BR-2 primers, and 42.1 grains or RL15 powder

 

[Zebra644]

Re: AR accuracy??

RTH1800
My question would be whats your barrel length, twist rate and bullet weight/type that you are using?

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: AR accuracy??

my mk11 at work is a sub minute gun with m118, and i'll bet you anything my GAP ar10 is better then that. i don't shoot some fancy load, i shoot m118 and thats about it.

 

[Tomcat]

Re: AR accuracy??

I am talking about rack AR's, straight from the manufacturer with commercial grade ammo.

I do not believe claims that these shoot 1 moa or better. I have owned and tested or see AR's shoot from alot of manufacturers, and so far, none can shoot 1 MOA.

Disclaimer:
Of course you get 1 moa every 20-30 tries, I attribute that to a statistical deviation.
The questions is: CAN YOU DO IT ON DEMAND?


In order to get to that elusive <1 MOA standard - one must start customizing: triggers, barrels, and handloading, and and node testing for accuracy.
My initial rant was about 1:7 twist barrels and 55 grain bullets - I have never seen one of these go better that 1 moa. I'm talking about with commercial grade ammo again - and the ability to do it on demand.
My best rifle is a Noveske 16" with 1:7 and with 55 grain Black Hills is about 1.5 MOA. With 77 grain Black Hill is about 1 MOA - I have several groups that are 3/4 moa and some less, but I hold my self and my guns to the "Do it on demand" standard.

Edwin907 - we live quite nearby - lets get together and shoot - I very much would like to see that rifle shoot.

 

[High Binder]

Re: AR accuracy??

Mine shoot like shotguns. I don't even bother trying to be accurate with them. I'm going to do a 6.5Gren for that.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR accuracy??

They'll all send a bullet in the direction the barrel is pointed. Understanding where the barrel is pointed is usually about sight alignment and trigger control supported by a steady position. An AR, with BDC sight, shot by a trained marksman, can be effective, on the sort of targets it was desgned to accomodate, out to about 600 meters.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: AR accuracy??

My AR consistently shoots .75 moa if I do my part. On occassion it shoots better, but on average I have shot .75-.8 MOA. Nothing special about mine except I did a "25 cent trigger job" and my barrel is freefloated and a heavy SS Wilson. Aside from that, it's all stock commercial grade.

I broke my barrel in the best I knew how at the time and never shoot crap russian ammo. Most ARs are toys for guys to go buy 1000 rounds of cheap dirty russian ammo for $200 and shoot all day. Even those guys shoot 2-3 MOA with their beaters.

How would a bolt gun hold up to you buying it from Cabela's or Academy and shoving those rounds through her without breaking the barrel in or cleaning it until 2-3000 rounds later?

My girlfriend's dad, retired military, told me that my AR was the nicest he ever held. The ones that were issued to him were beaten up, didn't fit as tight and weren't as accurate (according to him). My AR is nothing fancy at all! It is just a normal AR. He wanted to load a mag and just go shoot stuff...but I told him that's not what this AR does. I'll buy a cheap upper sooner or later with a cheap barrel to go dump some mags through...but not on the one I have. I'm pretty sure it's the image of a "battle rifle" that makes people do that stuff.

An AR can be realistically accurate. A bolt gun can and most definitely will be more accurate. As anybody would tell you, it's all about training and getting some range time in.

They are indeed "bitchy" guns. Their trigger pull is very different than a bolt and the recoil is different (IMHO). I have seen guys add piston kits so they could turn the gas off and cycle the bolt with the charging handle to get better accuracy (fewer moving parts). That made me kinda laugh because they turned a semi-auto into a quasi-bolt.

If you were getting fliers to the right, it might be your trigger pull. RRA has a nice two stage that some good shooters I know swear by.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My initial rant was about 1:7 twist barrels and 55 grain bullets - I have never seen one of these go better that 1 moa.
</div></div>

Sounds to me like you have some unrealistic expectations out of an AR carbine.

1 MOA out a 16" noveske is about what I would expect with decent factory ammo. Some groups might be better, some worse, it all depends on you just as much as it depends on the rifle.

If you want consistent sub moa out of a factory AR your best bet is to go with a varmint profile upper but then you lose the utility of a lighter, shorter carbine profile barrel.

My varmint ar (completely factory save for upgraded trigger) shoots incredibly well, but it weighs a ton. Black hills 55 grain red box makes 1.25-1.5" groups at 200 without a hitch, and the 52 grain black hills shoots especially well (I chronoed it and made my own version of it for this gun with a 52 sierra bthp).

Next time I go to the range I'll try to remember to bring it, all I shot this last weekend was pistols and a dozen reloads through my 308.

 

[Tomcat]

Re: AR accuracy??

BCP, thanks for the repy,
- I am pretty happy with my Noveske - I can get 1 moa often enough - about 1 try in 7. The rest will be about 1.5 moa - thats dam good for an AR. This is only with Black Hills 77 grain. 55 grain ammo shoots 2 moa.

I have a 14.5 inch Noveske M249 barrel that shoots 1.5 MOA consistently with 77 grain Black Hills. I am really happy with that.

I have some Rock Rivers - that do pretty good, typically under 2 MOA consistently, about 1 ten will be near 1 moa. I am very happy with these.

I think I am going to get a White Oak 18" upper, they have a really good reputation for building accurate kit.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR accuracy??

All,

Raise your expectations. If consistancy is possible, accuracy is possible too. Most shooters simply do not recognize, it appears, that, by making their position consistent to a molecular level, insane accuracy, with any firearm that's not broken, is doable.

 

[BCP]

Re: AR accuracy??

Insane accuracy would be my RRA varmint rifle, it is laser beams with any decent ammunition but weighs as much as an olympic weight bar. If I could get my 308 AR to shoot half as good as it does I'd be a happy camper.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: AR accuracy??

All,

There is no doubt that a good barrel, trigger and high grade ammunition will inspire accuracy. Yet, today, the single most important aspect of accuracy is recoil management. The AR's design , with a straight recoil effect, in addition to low recoil, allows for a result as good as it gets, bullets all right-in-there. With proper sight alignment and smooth trigger control, supported by a consistent position, where follow though is maintained, results with the AR, any flavor, should rival any other action type of similar quality. It's the shooter not the shootin' stick.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: AR accuracy??

I would like to thank everyone for the input. I will say that for one not fluent in every abberiviation, some of this is a bit hard to follow. There are an awful lot of two and three letter manufactures that I an not familar with. Not being critical, but the post would be more informative to me if the names were written out. Thank everyone for the input though.
RTH

 

[jwb47]

Re: AR accuracy??

the only problem I have shooting sub moa groups with my 458 socom is every hole it punches in the paper is darn near 1/2 inch . here is a 7 shot group fired from my rock river arms upper 458 socom with a leupold 2x7x33 scope. this is pretty typical for 100 yds the load is 36 grains of reloader 7 and a hornady 325 grain ftx bullet .

the reason it is a 7 shot group is that is all the 458 rounds that you can fit in a 20 shot mag.
here is the beast that launches those rounds down range.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwb47</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the only problem I have shooting sub moa groups with my 458 socom is every hole it punches in the paper is darn near 1/2 inch . here is a 7 shot group fired from my rock river arms upper 458 socom with a leupold 2x7x33 scope. this is pretty typical for 100 yds the load is 36 grains of reloader 7 and a hornady 325 grain ftx bullet .

the reason it is a 7 shot group is that is all the 458 rounds that you can fit in a 20 shot mag.
here is the beast that launches those rounds down range.

</div></div>

I just JIMPed. That'll make a few hogs dead for sure.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: AR accuracy??

Those of you with vastly more experience than I, please correct me if I'm wrong. RH stated that he is shooting at 600 yds. from the prone position using a front hand rest, sling and no rear bag. This resulted in grps. from less than MOA to the largest at 1.33 MOA being shot. Considering environmentals and shooting aids it sounds to me like the rifle and shooter are both capable of sub MOA using the methodology that is most often employed to determine whether a rifle is termed MOA or sub-MOA.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: AR accuracy??

I've honestly never got perfect MOA with my AR platforms at more than say around, 250m.

This might be my fault, but the best MOA that I have ever got was due to handloads.

I dont reload myself but I know people who do, and its a whole other ball game with them.

 

[dan46n2]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BCP, thanks for the repy,
- I am pretty happy with my Noveske - I can get 1 moa often enough - about 1 try in 7. The rest will be about 1.5 moa - thats dam good for an AR. This is only with Black Hills 77 grain. 55 grain ammo shoots 2 moa.

I have a 14.5 inch Noveske M249 barrel that shoots 1.5 MOA consistently with 77 grain Black Hills. I am really happy with that.

I have some Rock Rivers - that do pretty good, typically under 2 MOA consistently, about 1 ten will be near 1 moa. I am very happy with these.

I think I am going to get a White Oak 18" upper, they have a really good reputation for building accurate kit.




</div></div>

So you attribute the 1 in 7 one moa group to ammo variations that just happen to pull the bullet off it's intended course (which would be farther away than one moa from the point of aim) towards the point of aim? A bad barrel will consistently have larger groups with consistent ammo. I can see where inconsistent ammo with a bad barrel could eventually produce a tight group like I wrote about earlier however it would seem it would be a much smaller chance that 1 in 7. What do you attribute the inconsistency of the rifle to?

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: AR accuracy??

Most all my AR's were built by me.

I did buy a rock river NM A2 rifle.
This rifle, with factory ammunition, (69 smk, Black hills blue box)
Was always sub moa, and usually closer to 1/2.
I got my distinguished badge with that rifle as it came from the factory.
With an ACOG on top, I realized that it was still sub minute all the way out to 600 yards, and likely further.
Me and my eyes can't shoot sub moa with irons.
I'm doing good to consistently hold under 2 moa out in the real world with those iron sights.
The original barrel is long gone, and I've made a host of upgrades to it, but it still shoots about as good as the day I got it.

Well there you go:
A factory rifle, with factory ammunition, that is definitely a sub moa shooter.

Believe it,
or don't

 

[Sapper524]

Re: AR accuracy??

AR Accuracy is all relative. The average "battle rifle" AR replica is not designed to be a MOA weapon system. My 6920 shoots pretty good but averages about 1.5 inches at 100 yards with match ammo. My Hbar will shoot about MOA at 100 with match ammo but its trigger is far from "battle rifle" standards. My cr6724 will shoot MOA out to 600 yards ... but again its nothing like a "battle rifle". 24 inch barrel, match trigger, floated barrel, and a SN3 on top of it.

If you have a $800 AR and are hoping for MOA accuracy with wolf ammo ... thats pretty unrealistic.

 

[Graham]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sapper524</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AR Accuracy is all relative.</div></div>All accuracy is relative. It's not about the rifle.

 

[TXTransplant]

Re: AR accuracy??

If we're talking accuracy off the bench, or off a bipod/bag, my experience is the same as Hamilton's--all the AR's I've owned (which are only 5.56 so far) that have factory barrels (ie RR, DPMS, Bushmaster, and S&W--not sure who makes the S&W barrel) are well under MOA with the 69 grain SMKs (Black hills blue box or red box, not handloads).

In fact, the cheapie Bushmaster barrel (1:9, m4 contour) is nearly MOA with PMC 55 grain ball ammo and even with Wolf steelcased ammo, though it seems to depend on what lot it is. That's with 10,000 rounds through the barrel. All of the above figures are using some sort of high-ish powered scope with very fine crosshairs--thick crosshairs, low powered CQB scope, big fat chevron reticle--the groups are not going to be as tight.

At any rate, I can't shoot MOA offhand, or sitting, or even prone with a sling, but that's my fault--from a mechanical standpoint, it seems like most ARs will definitely do it. Seems unfair to blame the gun for any faults the shooter might have.

 

[marduk185]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty much any AR with a free floating barrel will be sub MOA with match ammo, bull will be about half moa if you do your part.

RRA bull upper rifles are especially accurate for the price.

My RRA coyote rifle will shoot moa with 55 grain PMC 6.49 a box ammo give or take. Black hills 52 grain match shot especially well in it, 1" groups at 200.


I think I have around 3k rounds through it now, so it's starting to open up a little though.

The key is having ammunition that is consistent for them, a lot of people just buy boxes and boxes of whatever they can get on sale and then wonder why it doesn't shoot as well as they hoped.

And you need a good rest too, a friend of mine claimed his was a POS because it couldn't shoot dime sized groups with a cardboard box as a rest.

I'll be going shooting either friday or saturday, I'll bring back targets if you want.
</div></div>
this may be a bit of an over generalization. my experience was that a scoped, free floated 18"heavy fluted barrel (bushmaster)with "disipator" gas system was consistently 2-2.5 moa with match loads but a 16" bushmaster with a pinned ak break and not free floated with regular m4 grips and gas block shot using only iron sights did easy 1-1.5 moa with crap milsurp. both were factory barrels and 1-9 twists so you tell me why the "entry gun" shoots better groups?

 

[pupdawg]

Re: AR accuracy??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty much any AR with a free floating barrel will be sub MOA with match ammo, bull will be about half moa if you do your part.

RRA bull upper rifles are especially accurate for the price.

My RRA coyote rifle will shoot moa with 55 grain PMC 6.49 a box ammo give or take. Black hills 52 grain match shot especially well in it, 1" groups at 200.


I think I have around 3k rounds through it now, so it's starting to open up a little though.

The key is having ammunition that is consistent for them, a lot of people just buy boxes and boxes of whatever they can get on sale and then wonder why it doesn't shoot as well as they hoped.

And you need a good rest too, a friend of mine claimed his was a POS because it couldn't shoot dime sized groups with a cardboard box as a rest.

I'll be going shooting either friday or saturday, I'll bring back targets if you want.
</div></div>
this may be a bit of an over generalization. my experience was that a scoped, free floated 18"heavy fluted barrel (bushmaster)with "disipator" gas system was consistently 2-2.5 moa with match loads but a 16" bushmaster with a pinned ak break and not free floated with regular m4 grips and gas block shot using only iron sights did easy 1-1.5 moa with crap milsurp. both were factory barrels and 1-9 twists so you tell me why the "entry gun" shoots better groups? </div></div>

Yes that is very over generalized, and no where near a valid point or conclusion.

First of all, in order for your experience to "prove" anything, you would've been better off using the same ammo in both rifles. Reason for this is that the "match loads" could've shot 3-3.5 MOA in that entry level gun and the crap mil surplus could've shot 3/4 - 1 MOA through the fluted barrel.

The whole point of doing comparisons is to validate any speculation, which means isolating the possibles down to nearly ZERO as much as possible.

So if we're doing a comparison of one rifle to another... then for both rifles you run the SAME scope (or no scope), SAME ammo, SAME shooter, SAME shooting position, SAME everything except of course the rifles.

Otherwise how would you explain the reasons for the generalizations you posted above? Also, if the shooter that shot the easy 1-1.5 MOA with open sights and CRAP MIL surplus ammo did so at 100 yards... he should enter CMP matches.

 

[marduk185]

Re: AR accuracy??

well the way i stated it does look apples oranges but believe me i tried both rifles with same ammo and conditions and scope and the results were same as above. the "entry" rifle for no reason i could ascertain ran tighter than the purpose built "precision" rifle all else equal. sorry if i made that confusing.
and yes maybe i should run competition circuit but im a working class stiff with little time for my hobby foolishness, not to mention that 1-1.5 moa is good at any distance as its an angle not a measure.

 

[pupdawg]

Re: AR accuracy??

Well I'm with you as far as not having a reason for the "entry" rifle to shoot tighter than the "match" rifle... I have seen of the shelf "entry" level AR's shoot MOA pretty consistently but they are far and few in between and I chuck it up to a simple luck of the draw on that.

Yes MOA is an angular measure but the distance and/or size of the target makes a difference on the sight picture especially with irons. To be able to hold 1 MOA with irons IS not easy is what I was getting at...( well I don't think I could do it regularly, haha).

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: AR accuracy??

A good barrel, regardless of length, or contour, is required to get an AR to shoot well.
In my experience, most descent chrome-lined barrels will shoot about 1.5 moa, with descent ammunition.

The button rifled wilson barrels that some builders are using have been sub-moa in my experience.

Assuming a properly built rifle, with good ammunition, and a competent shooter:
I think the barrel matters most, second is the float tube, and third would be the trigger.
This is my personal rating of importance anyhow.

The 18" rifle may be suffering from one of the three assumptions.
I'd guess it was the barrel that mattered.

 

[SMH]

Re: AR accuracy??

"AR's are not sub moa guns. Get used to it."

Is this a joke?
It might be true for a standard version but I would expect any free floated match version to be well under 1 MOA with decent ammunition.

My experience has been primarily limited to RRA with 1:8 SS match free floated barrels. I would sell them or send them to the warranty department if I couldn't get sub moa "on demand".

The last one I fired was only grouping 3/4 moa at 150yds. I was very disapointed but the conditions were not ideal. After the wind died down I fired two 3-shot groups to check my 100yd zero.
The groups went .45 and .25 inches. These were shots #15-20 from the new upper. I do not consider this unusual. (In this example I was using reloads with 55gr Vmax but I experienced similar results with factory Hornady)

My RRA LAR .308 Varmint has created more groups in the .5 moa range than 1+ moa range.

Have I just been exceptionally lucky with my rifle purchases?
My "gas guns" are grouping right with a custom Palma rifle and Sako TRGs at a fraction of the cost.