AR15 Build Opinions

[CrabsandFootball]

Define superior. Okay, easy. As far as lower parts go, unless it's nitride/melonite or DLC/Ionbond finished, I don't buy it. Milspec/parkarized finished will wear/corrode/rust long before anything in any of my builds.

Is it necessary? No. Is it superior to Mil Spec? Uh, yeah.

Does KAC/Daniel Defense/LMT make a hell of a rifle? They sure do. If you buy one, you'll likely be happy.

I'm new to this forum. I really don't like starting shit, but this boomer-esque tactical elitism is ridiculous.

Everything you have said means NOTHING germane to the discussion. Coating finishes are irrelevant if the part underneath is not dimensionally correct, heat treated properly and from the right materials. The only way to ensure this is testing.

Unnecessary coatings are a source of premature parts failure and poor fitment. Go take some stupid high Rockwell coating on a part that slides against 6061/7075 anodizing and your just went through the anno and are creating stress points on the bare alloy.

Ever wonder why Bolts are MPI and HP tested? It actually reduced the lifespan of the part but provides confidence that it can handle higher pressures and does not have micro fractures that could be catastrophic under high heat and pressure.

Mil spec means nothing when everyone makes shit to different specs, tolerances, ect. The only way you are even getting confirmed mil spec parts is to buy from Colt, LMT or FN, which by the way, only colt can sell commercial guns based on the TDP. Everything else is a wild guess and attempted reverse engineering. You don't know what mil spec is because you do not have access to the prints.

So no, you can't just take a box of parts that YOU think are good because of fancy marketing and buzzwords and throw them together and have the same confidence level of a quality factory gun that has been tested and proven.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance.

This is what happens when people punch above their weight class on the subject at hand.

And Boomer? Shit I'm not even 40. You don't know as much as you think you do, and your posts prove it. Spend more time learning.

 

[JS8588]

Everything you have said means NOTHING germane to the discussion. Coating finishes are irrelevant if the part underneath is not dimensionally correct, heat treated properly and from the right materials. The only way to ensure this is testing.

Unnecessary coatings are a source of premature parts failure and poor fitment. Go take some stupid high Rockwell coating on a part that slides against 6061/7075 anodizing and your just went through the anno and are creating stress points on the bare alloy.

Ever wonder why Bolts are MPI and HP tested? It actually reduced the lifespan of the part but provides confidence that it can handle higher pressures and does not have micro fractures that could be catastrophic under high heat and pressure.

Mil spec means nothing when everyone makes shit to different specs, tolerances, ect. The only way you are even getting confirmed mil spec parts is to buy from Colt, LMT or FN, which by the way, only colt can sell commercial guns based on the TDP. Everything else is a wild guess and attempted reverse engineering. You don't know what mil spec is because you do not have access to the prints.

So no, you can't just take a box of parts that YOU think are good because of fancy marketing and buzzwords and throw them together and have the same confidence level of a quality factory gun that has been tested and proven.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance.

This is what happens when people punch above their weight class on the subject at hand.

Melonite & PVD are finishes, not coatings. I guess I'll grant you that PVD/DLC/Ionbond adds 3 microns to the final product which is mechanically insignificant.

I prefer to buy bolts that aren't HP tested (MPI is good to go, though) precisely because it shortens the life of the part.

Speaking of, bolt brands I'll buy are Young Mfg, JP Enterprises, Maxim Firearms, LMT, and I recently picked up a Lantac BCG. All quality & proven.

Someone who calls Midwest Industries "shitty" and refers to people who disagree with his worldview as "fags" should be ignored out of hand.

 

[RyanScott]

The military requires two randomly selected M4s be pulled at some regular interval and fired 6,000 times each. Two malfunctions are permitted or the lot is refused. That’s a minimum standard for an issue rifle.

 

[semperfireloading]

I would recommend a proof research carbon fiber barrel, and go for a lighter 16" build. I have Vortex Razor 1x10 on mine, and with scope and Aero light mounts its 6lbs 9 ounces. Which feels great. youll get the accuracy of a heavy barrel with the weight of a light chrome lines barrel using it.

 

[stilesg57]

I'm new to this forum. I really don't like starting shit, but this boomer-esque tactical elitism is ridiculous.

Welcome...but you do know half the people on here have just run out of people to argue with in their regular lives, right?


To the OP: there’s more than enough good and bad advice on individual parts and components in the last three pages to fill a lifetime of builds so I’ll only add this: I think the concept of the true all-purpose AR isn’t realistic and the best you can do to truly cover all bases is at least two of them, primarily around barrel length.

If I could only have one, it’d have an 18” rifle length gas barrel and medium weight (~7lbs unloaded, pre-optic). I can build that into something that’ll shoot reasonably well as far as the .223 will stay supersonic with that, and I can varmint with it, and I can 2/3gun game with it, and I can train with it, and if need be I can defend my place and family with it. Of course shorter is better indoors the odds of being in a gunfight are so vanishingly low I’d rather have one that does the other stuff really well and can defend in a pinch rather than the other way around. IF you can only have one.

 

[JS8588]

Welcome...but you do know half the people on here have just run out of people to argue with in their regular lives, right?


To the OP: there’s more than enough good and bad advice on individual parts and components in the last three pages to fill a lifetime of builds so I’ll only add this: I think the concept of the true all-purpose AR isn’t realistic and the best you can do to truly cover all bases is at least two of them, primarily around barrel length.

If I could only have one, it’d have an 18” rifle length gas barrel and medium weight (~7lbs unloaded, pre-optic). I can build that into something that’ll shoot reasonably well as far as the .223 will stay supersonic with that, and I can varmint with it, and I can 2/3gun game with it, and I can train with it, and if need be I can defend my place and family with it. Of course shorter is better indoors the odds of being in a gunfight are so vanishingly low I’d rather have one that does the other stuff really well and can defend in a pinch rather than the other way around. IF you can only have one.

Yeah, I realized belatedly I was arguing with someone who joined exactly one day after I did but curiously has written twice as many comments. Odd, that.

 

[Matches Malone]

Soooo, anyone know how to actually fight in a house with a rifle?? It’s almost Friday...

 

[RTV]

Welcome...but you do know half the people on here have just run out of people to argue with in their regular lives, right?


To the OP: there’s more than enough good and bad advice on individual parts and components in the last three pages to fill a lifetime of builds so I’ll only add this: I think the concept of the true all-purpose AR isn’t realistic and the best you can do to truly cover all bases is at least two of them, primarily around barrel length.

If I could only have one, it’d have an 18” rifle length gas barrel and medium weight (~7lbs unloaded, pre-optic). I can build that into something that’ll shoot reasonably well as far as the .223 will stay supersonic with that, and I can varmint with it, and I can 2/3gun game with it, and I can train with it, and if need be I can defend my place and family with it. Of course shorter is better indoors the odds of being in a gunfight are so vanishingly low I’d rather have one that does the other stuff really well and can defend in a pinch rather than the other way around. IF you can only have one.

I agree and my initial post was not super clear on this rifles intended purpose it is more of a Mk12 MOD H with a slightly slimmer barrel profile because I wont be shooting the high volumes of fire that make them prefer that.

Although your response defenitly gives me a good excuse to SBR the lower and get a separate 12.5 upper for HD until I nab a separate lower.

It's a good time to be in this sport so many options I cant even make up my mind even when I think I already have lol

 

[Merle]

Here is a very interesting arfcom thread that was posted by the owner of a shooting range in Las Vegas that rents machine guns that details some of the parts that break on high round count ARs.

High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

 

[RTV]

Here is a very interesting arfcom thread that was posted by the owner of a shooting range in Las Vegas that rents machine guns that details some of the parts that break on high round count ARs.

High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

That article defenitly made a pretty good case for a KAC lol
Defenitly interesting what was said about the piston uppers (though not surprising FN undoubtedly tested their guns to failure in a way few others can afford)
Also the PSA doing good was a bit of a surprise I would have thought the cheaper gas tube would have had issues like in the iraqveteran meltdown

I hope I will one day be able to afford 100k rounds on my guns haha

 

[Zero Fox]

Soooo, anyone know how to actually fight in a house with a rifle?? It’s almost Friday...

Today's internet trophy goes to you sir.

 

[Zero Fox]

I agree and my initial post was not super clear on this rifles intended purpose it is more of a Mk12 MOD H with a slightly slimmer barrel profile because I wont be shooting the high volumes of fire that make them prefer that.

Although your response defenitly gives me a good excuse to SBR the lower and get a separate 12.5 upper for HD until I nab a separate lower.

It's a good time to be in this sport so many options I cant even make up my mind even when I think I already have lol

And this decision making process can be why people end up with so many rifles. A "Master of the Universe" all purposes rifle doesn't really exist, but you can get one that will be a Jack of most purposes.

We haven't even touched calibers. Throw that in the mix and watch the conversation melt.

Either way, good luck. Lots of good advice here.

My two cents on shorter lengths. Go pistol not SBR. I have two SBRs and with the currently available brace options and ATF ruling regarding their use, feel like I wasted $400. Money would have been better spent on ammo or training. Try crossing state lines with SBRs. Better know when and where you are going well in advance. Such a pain, unless you are really, really into vertical fore grips on shortys.

Welcome to the fray and an expensive pursuit addiction.

V/r,

Zer0

 

[Merle]

I have been building AR's for over 20 years both professionally and as a hobby.

Maybe you can enlighten us? With over 20 years in the business you got to have some tips to pass on.

And Boomer? Shit I'm not even 40.

Or maybe you don't have as much experience as you let on. The math doesn't seem to add up to me. By the way you act on this forum I'm guessing your age is more like 20 something.

 

[MontanaMan]

My two cents on shorter lengths. Go pistol not SBR. I have two SBRs and with the currently available brace options and ATF ruling regarding their use, feel like I wasted $400. Money would have been better spent on ammo or training. Try crossing state lines with SBRs. Better know when and where you are going well in advance. Such a pain,

I agree on the pistol vs SBR, but there are some various state rules about transporting minimum length "pistols" that put them into long gun categories for transportation purposes.

IE, a gun may be registered as a pistol, for example, but because the minimum length is over 26", it cannot be classed as a pistol for transportation purposes.

MM

 

[MontanaMan]

Unnecessary coatings are a source of premature parts failure and poor fitment. Go take some stupid high Rockwell coating on a part that slides against 6061/7075 anodizing and your just went through the anno and are creating stress points on the bare alloy.

You have no idea WTF you are talking about re: coatings, either with the method of measuring hardness (hint, not Rockwell), nor the wear mating mechanisms & the reduced coefficients of friction of them.

Nor do have any real clue about QA procedures or inspection standards or certifications that you keep yapping about.

For the most part, with a few exceptions, you're info is about as useful as a pile of dog shit.

MM

 

[CrabsandFootball]

You have no idea WTF you are talking about re: coatings, either with the method of measuring hardness (hint, not Rockwell), nor the wear mating mechanisms & the reduced coefficients of friction of them.

Nor do have any real clue about QA procedures or inspection standards or certifications that you keep yapping about.

For the most part, with a few exceptions, you're info is about as useful as a pile of dog shit.

MM

You are the one who is full of shit. I'm a trained machinist (not by trade, by school, just did it for gunsmithing). Spent half a year in a metallurgy lab doing testing in school. Never said I was an expert but have atleast a basic understanding of how this works.

Reduced coefficient of friction is mitigated when the contact surfaces are not true. There is going to be contact point and generally, the softer material will wear. Coatings or finishes like Anodizing or NP3/Melonite are hard as shit, but very thin like a hard-shell egg. Once that layer is breached, the bare metal is much softer. Cerokote and other finishes change the dimensions of the part and can and do cause issues. Lots of high end bolt guns have seized up due to shitty coaters and not understanding the tolerances of the part.

You can have the greatest coating known to man, if the part is not made to account for a variation nor is the system built correctly, you are introducing more variables.

Rockwell B and C are the most common used measurements for surface hardness of these types of parts. Know I destroyed my fair share of tips getting them mixed up. Please tell us what I'm missing.

You can't prove anything I said is incorrect. Maybe my terminology is not perfect because I am not a machinist or metallurgist by trade.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Maybe you can enlighten us? With over 20 years in the business you got to have some tips to pass on.

Or maybe you don't have as much experience as you let on. The math doesn't seem to add up to me. By the way you act on this forum I'm guessing your age is more like 20 something.

Just a low tollerence for people who think they know what they are talking about but have little to no experience with the subject at hand.

Example #1 - You.

Example #2 - You can join the Army at 17 and GASP, some people start building and working on guns before they are of legal age. I grew up at the gun club and was wrenching on guns at 14.

One of my good army bros left the army and joined the air force. He became an armorer, which is hilarious because he knew nothing about guns and was a MP. He said the fine people in the Air Force were lucky to touch a M16 or M4 once a year and didn't even know how or clean their own weapons. Half his job was cleaning and maintaining the units weapons....like real basic -10 level shit.

My other buddy is a Comms E7 in a rescue squadron. Met him in machining school while burning up the last of my GI bill. All the fancy gear for the PJ with big SOCOM money. Same deal with their sister unit with the CTT's & Weather folks (Or whatever the AF calls them now) Outside of the PJ's all the enablers the same deal. Touch a gun once a year and maybe before they deploy they get some half ass combat training, but they don't even have basic understanding that any private in the army or marines gets drilled into them in BCT. He told me flat out if they ever had to go to the rifle to repel and attack, they would be fucked. Lucky they have actual warriors providing QRF.

What im getting at is people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. I was fixing downed guns in a connex with nothing but a headlamp and a brownells armorer toolkit during OIF1/2 , and the ONLY reason I was successful, was I was a gun dude before I joined the army and had better training and experience than the schoolhouse or my NCO's were able to provide. Maybe your a gun guy or think you are. Based on your posts in here, im going with you probably don't know what you think you know.

 

[RTV]

Just a low tollerence for people who think they know what they are talking about but have little to no experience with the subject at hand.

Example #1 - You.

Example #2 - You can join the Army at 17 and GASP, some people start building and working on guns before they are of legal age. I grew up at the gun club and was wrenching on guns at 14.

One of my good army bros left the army and joined the air force. He became an armorer, which is hilarious because he knew nothing about guns and was a MP. He said the fine people in the Air Force were lucky to touch a M16 or M4 once a year and didn't even know how or clean their own weapons. Half his job was cleaning and maintaining the units weapons....like real basic -10 level shit.

My other buddy is a Comms E7 in a rescue squadron. Met him in machining school while burning up the last of my GI bill. All the fancy gear for the PJ with big SOCOM money. Same deal with their sister unit with the CTT's & Weather folks (Or whatever the AF calls them now) Outside of the PJ's all the enablers the same deal. Touch a gun once a year and maybe before they deploy they get some half ass combat training, but they don't even have basic understanding that any private in the army or marines gets drilled into them in BCT. He told me flat out if they ever had to go to the rifle to repel and attack, they would be fucked. Lucky they have actual warriors providing QRF.

What im getting at is people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. I was fixing downed guns in a connex with nothing but a headlamp and a brownells armorer toolkit during OIF1/2 , and the ONLY reason I was successful, was I was a gun dude before I joined the army and had better training and experience than the schoolhouse or my NCO's were able to provide. Maybe your a gun guy or think you are. Based on your posts in here, im going with you probably don't know what you think you know.

That explains a lot about Nutnfancy Videos LOL

Back on topic.

What is everyone's thoughts on a Larue PredatOBR?
Are they "combat tuff" or more of a boutique precision competition rig.

As of right now I am between:

KAC SR15
PredatOBR
Or
Build my own lower and
Get a DDM4V7 upper (for a more mil spec option with less proprietary parts)

 

[Merle]

Just a low tollerence for people who think they know what they are talking about but have little to no experience with the subject at hand.

Example #1 - You.

Example #2 - You can join the Army at 17 and GASP, some people start building and working on guns before they are of legal age. I grew up at the gun club and was wrenching on guns at 14.

One of my good army bros left the army and joined the air force. He became an armorer, which is hilarious because he knew nothing about guns and was a MP. He said the fine people in the Air Force were lucky to touch a M16 or M4 once a year and didn't even know how or clean their own weapons. Half his job was cleaning and maintaining the units weapons....like real basic -10 level shit.

My other buddy is a Comms E7 in a rescue squadron. Met him in machining school while burning up the last of my GI bill. All the fancy gear for the PJ with big SOCOM money. Same deal with their sister unit with the CTT's & Weather folks (Or whatever the AF calls them now) Outside of the PJ's all the enablers the same deal. Touch a gun once a year and maybe before they deploy they get some half ass combat training, but they don't even have basic understanding that any private in the army or marines gets drilled into them in BCT. He told me flat out if they ever had to go to the rifle to repel and attack, they would be fucked. Lucky they have actual warriors providing QRF.

What im getting at is people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. I was fixing downed guns in a connex with nothing but a headlamp and a brownells armorer toolkit during OIF1/2 , and the ONLY reason I was successful, was I was a gun dude before I joined the army and had better training and experience than the schoolhouse or my NCO's were able to provide. Maybe your a gun guy or think you are. Based on your posts in here, im going with you probably don't know what you think you know.

Thanks for your service! I'd never try to downplay anything you did that put you physically in harm's way. Although I've never really had to use weapons in my military career other than staying qualified, I do enjoy shooting and working on them in my spare time. Myself; I'm 44, worked as an aircraft mechanic 5-7 days a week for 22 straight years both in the USAF and in the civilian world, sometimes in some pretty shitty conditions and/or some pretty shitty locations. I've torn apart and put back together shit far more technical than an AR-15 with tolerances that have to be dead nuts using manufacturer's drawings, aircraft maintenance manuals, etc. I've been consulted by Boeing engineering to assist in re-writing out-of-date and incorrect technical data on complex aircraft maintenance tasks on numerous occasions. I'd say that I know a little bit about mechanical things. I've been in supervision for the last 3 years and don't have to get dirty anymore but I do have to supervise a few smart asses who think they know everything. More often than not they don't. I'd still like to hear about the special techniques that we can use when assembling an AR15. In all your insulting posts in this thread you haven't metioned any of them.

 

[stilesg57]

Since the dick measuring is only taking this thread so far...

 

[MontanaMan]

Just a low tollerence for people who think they know what they are talking about but have little to no experience with the subject at hand.

I think you just described yourself...............maybe you know how to put an AR together, maybe not, but you're way over your head with much of anything else.

And as far as coatings go, I deal with them professionally, as from an engineering standpoint, both design & application..............plasma, HVOF, PVD/DLC, galvanic plating, electroless plating, phopshate, anodizing as well as machining, grinding & lapping.

You occasionally make a few valid points & then go ape-shit about various people building guns w/o testing to a 50,000 round torture test durability level. Valid, sure but not very applicable.

Durability & reliability are different, but related things. Most, not all people here (civilians) build guns to do what they want them to do & their guns will never see the use that a soldier in BFE's gun will see.

So if it's reliable to 10K rounds of so & something breaks, it's not the end of the world..................so get a grip.

If that's enough for most people, then leave it alone.

If some one wants to step up a notch to KAC or similar, then that's fine too.................not everyone does, & you don't need to lecture them & attempt to be either their conscience of tell them that what they are doing is wrong & that they are all fucked up & full of shit...........as that would more likely be you

I build guns of all levels & trust every single one I build.

But, having said that, I also one several KAC's, just for the helluvait.

I'm done talking to you so GFY.

MM

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Except you don't know if it's reliable to 10k or a anything. It's a crap shoot because you have ZERO testing in place to verify or prove data. So no, you GFY. Maybe pick up a book on logic and reading comprehension while your at it.

 

[JS8588]

Except you don't know if it's reliable to 10k or a anything. It's a crap shoot because you have ZERO testing in place to verify or prove data. So no, you GFY. Maybe pick up a book on logic and reading comprehension while your at it.

Learn the difference between your and you're before instructing others in reading comprehension.

Look, the general advice you're giving isn't even bad. To wit, if you're already planning to spend ~$2k on building an AR, you're just as well off buying a high end factory gun. Great point. You're just a dick about the way you're making your point. Remember, being one doesn't make yours any bigger.

Factory guns break down too, though. Good chance if you've learned the skills to put your own rifle together (and I mean real skills, not WECSOG graduates), you also developed the skills to fix it if something shits the bed under hard use. You do not get that experience buying a factory gun.

Granted, some of us are so OCD about guns, even when we buy factory, we take them down and put them back together to make sure everything was done correctly...and while we're at it swap the trigger, safety, grip, stock, muzzle device, sights...and then remember why we just build our own in the first place.

 

[RTV]

Except you don't know if it's reliable to 10k or a anything. It's a crap shoot because you have ZERO testing in place to verify or prove data. So no, you GFY. Maybe pick up a book on logic and reading comprehension while your at it.

One thing I dont get is that you dont really KNOW there are no manufacturer defects in the first place. I get your point that you cannot test the system to failure like FN can but the AR platform is over 60 years old. It's not some mystical rocket science on what makes a good one at this point.

While I agree a quality factory gun is tested to all wear and work together so you might have uneven wear/looser tolerances reducing the lifespan of parts a bit with a build vs a factory gun.

How does that equate to a home brew being a ticking time bomb? A quality parts manufacturer should be doing the lot testing of parts for you and be evident by their reputation.

 

[RTV]

Also any thoughts on Larue Vs KAC for a Mk12 MOD H type gun?

 

[JS8588]

One thing I dont get is that you dont really KNOW there are no manufacturer defects in the first place. I get your point that you cannot test the system to failure like FN can but the AR platform is over 60 years old. It's not some mystical rocket science on what makes a good one at this point.

While I agree a quality factory gun is tested to all wear and work together so you might have uneven wear/looser tolerances reducing the lifespan of parts a bit.

How does that equate to a home brew being a ticking time bomb? A quality parts manufacturer should be doing the lot testing of parts for you and be evident by their reputation.

He feels insecure about his home builds ability vs the abilities of a factory gun.

For my part I'm more confident in my home builds abilities over a factory gun.

It's possible we're both right.

It's possible we're both wrong.

Edit: if you're buying an upper, you could do a lot worse than this. 18 inch 223 Wylde CHF/CL upper with a Geissele rail. https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...5-geissele-mk14-m-lok-upper-no-bcg-or-ch.html

 

[CrabsandFootball]

One thing I dont get is that you dont really KNOW there are no manufacturer defects in the first place. I get your point that you cannot test the system to failure like FN can but the AR platform is over 60 years old. It's not some mystical rocket science on what makes a good one at this point.

While I agree a quality factory gun is tested to all wear and work together so you might have uneven wear/looser tolerances reducing the lifespan of parts a bit with a build vs a factory gun.

How does that equate to a home brew being a ticking time bomb? A quality parts manufacturer should be doing the lot testing of parts for you and be evident by their reputation.

As already stated numerous times....there is no standard spec. Tollerences all over the place especially from different manufactures is a bad idea unless you are testing. You have no idea how things will work out. May get lucky may not. If not good luck diaganosing.

Even if every part is made "correctly" how do you know how they work as a system? Everyone had their own specs.

It's all been covered in depth, and if you took the time to read and digest what was wrote, it would be clear.

People having confidence out of pure ignorance because they don't understand the nuances or actual risk means jack shit. Ignorance is bliss.

Just becuase some jerk off on the internet is willing to assume risk he doesn't even understand, doesn't mean it should be advice anyone else takes. Institutions and professionals who do this for a living aren't that stupid. Don't be stupid.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

He feels insecure about his home builds ability vs the abilities of a factory gun.

For my part I'm more confident in my home builds abilities over a factory gun.

It's possible we're both right.

It's possible we're both wrong.

Edit: if you're buying an upper, you could do a lot worse than this. 18 inch 223 Wylde CHF/CL upper with a Geissele rail. https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...5-geissele-mk14-m-lok-upper-no-bcg-or-ch.html

Not insecurity it's a bad risk assessment. Sorry you don't know the difference.

Your confidence means nothing. Plenty of confident fools asking others how to fix their broken shit in every industry. In fact, fools are what keeps the industries going.

 

[Merle]

As already stated numerous times....there is no standard spec. Tollerences all over the place especially from different manufactures is a bad idea unless you are testing. You have no idea how things will work out. May get lucky may not. If not good luck diaganosing.

Even if every part is made "correctly" how do you know how they work as a system? Everyone had their own specs.

It's all been covered in depth, and if you took the time to read and digest what was wrote, it would be clear.

People having confidence out of pure ignorance because they don't understand the nuances or actual risk means jack shit. Ignorance is bliss.

Just becuase some jerk off on the internet is willing to assume risk he doesn't even understand, doesn't mean it should be advice anyone else takes. Institutions and professionals who do this for a living aren't that stupid. Don't be stupid.

What tolerances should be checked on what components when assembling a rifle?

 

[CrabsandFootball]

That is an impossible question to anwser because there are multiple variables.

1. Every manufacture has their own specs
2. Within each manufacture they have acceptable tollerences ranges, some will ship any part reguardless of conformance to their own prints.
3. It's impossible for a builder without full prints on every part to know what the tollerences should be.

So you have multiple moving targets hoping you get lucky and everything works together we'll. Often, it doesn't. Extensive testing in statistically significant numbers is the only way to know for sure. Anything else is a shot in the dark ( without nv or thermal).

So now we circle back to the very beginning where any gun used for duty or defense needs to be able to be relied upon. Reliance is determined via testing and proven systems.

This shit is so simple i don't know how much more I can dumb it down.

 

[MontanaMan]

Don't feed the troll............................

MM

 

[RTV]

Don't feed the troll............................

MM

this thread has basically devolved into a few people arguing with Crabs lol everyone else dropped off already.

 

[RTV]

Thank you everyone for your responses I really do appreciate them a lot of good advice in here.

I have decided I am going to buy this first rifle and save the build for another one (maybe a 6mm ARC if it gets released soon)

Now its just a decision between Larue or KAC which I have been reading up on extensively.

 

[Merle]

That is an impossible question to anwser because there are multiple variables.

1. Every manufacture has their own specs
2. Within each manufacture they have acceptable tollerences ranges, some will ship any part reguardless of conformance to their own prints.
3. It's impossible for a builder without full prints on every part to know what the tollerences should be.

So you have multiple moving targets hoping you get lucky and everything works together we'll. Often, it doesn't. Extensive testing in statistically significant numbers is the only way to know for sure. Anything else is a shot in the dark ( without nv or thermal).

So now we circle back to the very beginning where any gun used for duty or defense needs to be able to be relied upon. Reliance is determined via testing and proven systems.

This shit is so simple i don't know how much more I can dumb it down.

What do YOU check then?

 

[MontanaMan]

What tolerances should be checked on what components when assembling a rifle?

Merle..................tell us what really useful & specific information you got out of the response that you got, below

That is an impossible question to anwser because there are multiple variables.

1. Every manufacture has their own specs
2. Within each manufacture they have acceptable tollerences ranges, some will ship any part reguardless of conformance to their own prints.
3. It's impossible for a builder without full prints on every part to know what the tollerences should be.

So you have multiple moving targets hoping you get lucky and everything works together we'll. Often, it doesn't. Extensive testing in statistically significant numbers is the only way to know for sure. Anything else is a shot in the dark ( without nv or thermal).

So now we circle back to the very beginning where any gun used for duty or defense needs to be able to be relied upon. Reliance is determined via testing and proven systems.

This shit is so simple i don't know how much more I can dumb it down.

 

[Merle]

Merle..................tell us what really useful & specific information you got out of the response that you got, below

Not a thing. Thats why I'd like to hear from a pro AR builder on what I should be checking so I dont have a ticking time bomb that could fail or explode at any trigger pull.

 

[slothlacrosse]

OP- My first AR was an off-the-shelf Bushmaster. It wasn't anything special. I put a drop-in KAC handguard and EOTECH on it and started shooting. The gun evolved as I learned. I spent a small fortune swapping parts on it. I sold the rifle and a box of parts for less than I spent; however, I know what works best for me and can buy a rifle that suits my needs. Buy a solid foundation and don't be afraid to try new things.

 

[Naaman]

Hello everyone, hoping to get some feedback on a build I have been working on for a while before I pull the trigger.
It is meant to be my "go to" rifle and my only one for at least two years before I can save up enough for another one so I want it to be suitable for any role it might be called upon to fill including long range plinking (mainly up to 600 but out to a thousand for giggles), home defense, maybe even a little hunting.

I chose .223 wylde instead of something larger because one of this rifles duties will be home defense and the
223 caliber bullets tens to lend themselves to less overpenetration than some of the other options as well as magazine reliability/cost and the abundance of ammo.

Parts List:

Optic: Razor 1-10x
Suppressor: Dead Air Nomad (will be taken off during HD use)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Barrel 289$: criterion CORE 16"middy chrome lined .223 wylde

Trigger 240$: geissele Tricon

Rail 189$: Aero ATLAS S One 15"
-might go with a Geissele Mk4 due to rigidity concerns although I really like how the smaller diameter S-One from Aero helps me get more grip in a C Clamp grip.

I own a couple of Geissele triggers. I have no experience with the Tricon, but if you are new to ARs I'd say consider getting a heavier, single stage trigger. The Geissele's are nice for slow, precision fire (I use the SSA, for example), but for up close, double taps or just shooting faster, I find that there is not enough spring force behind the trigger to get a quick reset unless I fully remove my finger from the trigger (something that does not come naturally to me). This has caused me to attempt a second (rapid) shot on a trigger that is still "to the rear," and hence, no shot is fired. Ultimately, this results in a slower, sporadic, cadence as I try to figure out what the shortest possible distance is to get the trigger to reset. FWIW, I really like the stock BCM trigger. I also have a Geissele single stage that I'm waiting to install into a Geissele lower... if they ever figure out how to get product back into production over there...

I think you're good to go with a 16" barrel: I have never understood why we use 14.5" and then put an extended muzzle device on it. The loss of velocity may be negligible to most folks, but objectively, you "save" a fraction of an inch (also negligible) for a known loss in bullet performance. Why not just make a 15" barrel and pin/weld to 16"? On the other hand, the 14.5 or even 13.9 looks "worth it" to me if the muzzle device you have selected will push the length out to 16" anyway (if you're married to a muzzle device whose engineering requires it to be extra long, that is).

Lastly, this will probably be super unpopular, but I'd say keymod is worth at least some consideration: I find that by comparison, mounting MLOK accessories is unnecessarily complicated and there is a short learning curve with being certain that you've mounted things securely. Also, you need an additional tool (such as pliers or a crescent wrench) to install MLOK. Keymod only needs a little hex key (I keep mine inside the pistol grip). If you're "in the field" and want to remove/reinstall an accessory, keymod is a bit more straightforward, and might make more sense on a "do it all" rifle.

 

[RTV]

I own a couple of Geissele triggers. I have no experience with the Tricon, but if you are new to ARs I'd say consider getting a heavier, single stage trigger. The Geissele's are nice for slow, precision fire (I use the SSA, for example), but for up close, double taps or just shooting faster, I find that there is not enough spring force behind the trigger to get a quick reset unless I fully remove my finger from the trigger (something that does not come naturally to me). This has caused me to attempt a second (rapid) shot on a trigger that is still "to the rear," and hence, no shot is fired. Ultimately, this results in a slower, sporadic, cadence as I try to figure out what the shortest possible distance is to get the trigger to reset. FWIW, I really like the stock BCM trigger. I also have a Geissele single stage that I'm waiting to install into a Geissele lower... if they ever figure out how to get product back into production over there...

I think you're good to go with a 16" barrel: I have never understood why we use 14.5" and then put an extended muzzle device on it. The loss of velocity may be negligible to most folks, but objectively, you "save" a fraction of an inch (also negligible) for a known loss in bullet performance. Why not just make a 15" barrel and pin/weld to 16"? On the other hand, the 14.5 or even 13.9 looks "worth it" to me if the muzzle device you have selected will push the length out to 16" anyway (if you're married to a muzzle device whose engineering requires it to be extra long, that is).

Lastly, this will probably be super unpopular, but I'd say keymod is worth at least some consideration: I find that by comparison, mounting MLOK accessories is unnecessarily complicated and there is a short learning curve with being certain that you've mounted things securely. Also, you need an additional tool (such as pliers or a crescent wrench) to install MLOK. Keymod only needs a little hex key (I keep mine inside the pistol grip). If you're "in the field" and want to remove/reinstall an accessory, keymod is a bit more straightforward, and might make more sense on a "do it all" rifle.

Good point about the trigger... I have honestly been considering switching it over to a solid milspec one just based on some other comments here. I have never found the milspec trigger in my uncles delton to be a hindrance in any way unless I make a mistake.

The geissele would be nice but I could defenitly see it being a crutch for bad habits that a milspec trigger would force me to work on.

Just out of curiosity is there a way to use the Tricon hybrid trigger bow with a milspec trigger? The reason I chose that one is I think it would work really well for my shooting style (flat bow so I can put my finger on the tip of the trigger like I am used to but still pushed back a little for my weirdly short fingers lol)

 

[Naaman]

Interesting question there, and one that I'm not qualified to answer (I would go straight to the source on that one). On the other hand, they do offer a flat bow single stage. The spring weight is around 3.5 lbs, so a bit stronger than the second stage of the SSA, and much stronger than the second stage of the Tricon's 1.75 lbs.

You might also consider the Super 3-Gun trigger, which can be had with a 4-ish OR a 5-ish pound trigger.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Hello everyone, hoping to get some feedback on a build I have been working on for a while before I pull the trigger.
It is meant to be my "go to" rifle and my only one for at least two years before I can save up enough for another one so I want it to be suitable for any role it might be called upon to fill including long range plinking (mainly up to 600 but out to a thousand for giggles), home defense, maybe even a little hunting.

I chose .223 wylde instead of something larger because one of this rifles duties will be home defense and the
223 caliber bullets tens to lend themselves to less overpenetration than some of the other options as well as magazine reliability/cost and the abundance of ammo.

Parts List:

Optic: Razor 1-10x
Suppressor: Dead Air Nomad (will be taken off during HD use)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Barrel 289$: criterion CORE 16"middy chrome lined .223 wylde

Trigger 240$: geissele Tricon

Rail 189$: Aero ATLAS S One 15"
-might go with a Geissele Mk4 due to rigidity concerns although I really like how the smaller diameter S-One from Aero helps me get more grip in a C Clamp grip.

Gas block 65.95$: VLTOR Gas Block .625 Black

Gas tube 23$: SLR mid length

Muzzle Device 119.95$: Griffin tactical compensator taper mount

BCG 275$: Cryptic Coatings Mystic Black
-still debating this one because of price. Mostly an aesthetic choice but the benefits sound great as well. Alternate option
Is an Aero Nitiride BCG for 130$

Upper 130$: BCM Mk2

CH 105$: Radian Raptor SD

Buffer/tube&stock 214$: VLTOR A5 with IMOD

Lpk 40$: Aero Precision

*Purchased* Lower 99$: Aero Precision

I almost exclusively build fighting ar's and use them for work, so take this advice simply as the point of view it is.

-barrel choice is great. Barrel is 90% of the gun
-if this a fighting rifle I'd put a cheaper trigger in it. That's not to say geissle doesn't make great triggers. I personally use velocity triggers drop-ins. Can be found for like 150 or less
-rails are highly personal as they are part of the Ergonomics department. Get what one feels good. I tend to use bcm and slr.
-gas block and gas tube are in line for what they should be.
-dead air nomad:are you using dead air keymo devices? If so you may be able to use a dead air device that saves a couple bucks
-bcg:don't go cheap but a $275 bcg seems excessive to me.
-upper if you like the mk2 go with it. Tons of other more affordable uppers are on the market. You could also wait until bcm gets some blem m4 flattop uppers in they usually go for like 50-60
-radian is a nice charging handle but those are not a necessity. Simpler charging handles are used everyday without affecting ballistics
-buffer tube/stock combo is pricey. Without sacrificing ergonomics you could save 50-100 on this combo if you look around.
-lpk is fine

So there's around 300-450 you could save on your build if you wanted. As always, build it how you want and ymmv

 

[The22Man]

There is a lot of good to great advice here, I am not sure if you are still reading this. I am concerned about the muzzle brake and the suppressor. They don't seem to match for a quick disconnect. Both brands are very good (Dead-air and Griffin). I prefer my Griffin suppressors ONLY because they were less expensive. They seem to be of similar quality to me.
I believe others here, through experience. The trigger, barrel and BCG are extremely important. I love my Geissele triggers, I have several flavors. I also have milspec triggers and can live with them. Another you may consider, I only have one, but it is an excellent trigger is the Velocity trigger.
Building your own can and will add up.
Here is my adventure building a "Jack" http://www.the22man.com/2020/04/the-jack-build/
Here is my adventure building my wifes AR http://www.the22man.com/2016/08/the-pink-ar-adventure-a-continuing-saga/

 

[RTV]

There is a lot of good to great advice here, I am not sure if you are still reading this. I am concerned about the muzzle brake and the suppressor. They don't seem to match for a quick disconnect. Both brands are very good (Dead-air and Griffin). I prefer my Griffin suppressors ONLY because they were less expensive. They seem to be of similar quality to me.
I believe others here, through experience. The trigger, barrel and BCG are extremely important. I love my Geissele triggers, I have several flavors. I also have milspec triggers and can live with them. Another you may consider, I only have one, but it is an excellent trigger is the Velocity trigger.
Building your own can and will add up.
Here is my adventure building a "Jack" http://www.the22man.com/2020/04/the-jack-build/
Here is my adventure building my wifes AR http://www.the22man.com/2016/08/the-pink-ar-adventure-a-continuing-saga/

Griffin builds the Plan A adapter for the Nomad and SiCo products which I just forgot to include in original post.

Do you have any experience with the Griffin RECCE 5 vs the Nomad? Those were the two
Finalists when I was researching.

 

[Pugster]

I would go with the KAC for the resale value later on. But still, both KAC and Larue build solid rifles.

Thank you everyone for your responses I really do appreciate them a lot of good advice in here.

I have decided I am going to buy this first rifle and save the build for another one (maybe a 6mm ARC if it gets released soon)

Now its just a decision between Larue or KAC which I have been reading up on extensively.

 

[Thorbeast]

$1,800 is a lot of money for an aero precision mutt, don't buy into the marketing of parts with fancy , but pointless, machining. Save the extra money and buy more mags, ammo, a sling, a light, and so on...

Make sure you are getting value for your money when you buy a premium product. IMO, Crypic Coatings is a rip-off. They basically take a toolcraft BCG (a quality basic BCG that can be acquired for less than $100) and then put a mystery coating on them and then mark them up. If you need a BCG with a special coating, you can get nitrite or DLC toolcraft BCGs for 1/2 the cost of a cyptic coated bolt. Personally, I think there is little to no benefit to these fancy coatings. People talk about "slickness", but honestly what does that do for you? Increase the cyclic rate? Virtually all testing done by any large institution with serious engineering capability has proven that reducing the cyclic increases reliability. There is no benefit to increasing cyclic rate. Even if you slow down the cyclic rate to 600/min (which is crazy slow), you will not out run the trigger, that's a .10 split.

Personally, with that budget, I would find used KAC upper and put it on a LMT mars lower. Or just a used KAC, or for slightly less a LMT MRP. The MRPs aren't that heavy (my 16" factory barrel LMT MRP weights 7 lbs, 4 oz.), and most of the extra weight is in the barrel. With D Wilson doing barrel conversions, you could have him convert a 14.5 LW barrel to use with an MRP and save about 10oz. These companies offer products with superior engineering and materials, not the same old products with mystery coatings and materials.

 

[woland]

If you already know exactly what you want based on experience with previous rifles, ignore the next two paragraphs entirely.

I'm going to present a slightly different idea: build a relatively inexpensive but good quality AR that is the closest to what you "want" and shoot it a lot. BA barrel, Toolcraft BCG, BCM LPK (the trigger is actually very good and you'll develop good habits), etc. Should be able to put it together for around 1-1.2k including buying a reaction rod and torque wrench. Now you know how to assemble the rifle and you have the tools to maintain it.

Shoot this rifle a lot and make part selection adjustments until it does exactly what you want while saving for that second rifle. Then, buy the best factory upper that closely matches your purposefully evolved configuration. Now you have a "beater" upper for banging on door frames and a nearly identical, high quality upper that you can trust. I only suggest this because I backed into this solution and I wish someone had said this to me a long time ago. I happen to be mechanically inclined and not engaged in daily gun fights so I have time to build rifles and shoot them in conditions where failure is an opportunity for improvement so that I'm prepared for that one in a billion time when my rifle and I need to perform.

Reekus had some great advice on gas/buffer systems. It makes a huge difference in reliability and how "pleasant" a rifle is to shoot. No one is at their best with their eyes watering.

And don't let people conflate HD and combat. You will not be firing hundreds of rounds while running a half marathon in plates. You'll fire five shots in your underwear with your BPM pegged. So your rifle needs to be able to fire five accurate shots without malfunctioning and you need to be able to shoot accurately under pressure with that same rifle.

 

[The22Man]

Griffin builds the Plan A adapter for the Nomad and SiCo products which I just forgot to include in original post.

Do you have any experience with the Griffin RECCE 5 vs the Nomad? Those were the two
Finalists when I was researching.

My Griffins are the Optimus and REV 45

 

[Zero Fox]

I agree on the pistol vs SBR, but there are some various state rules about transporting minimum length "pistols" that put them into long gun categories for transportation purposes.

IE, a gun may be registered as a pistol, for example, but because the minimum length is over 26", it cannot be classed as a pistol for transportation purposes.

MM

Really good point. There is so much to consider when making these decisions. Didn't they recently change the rules about OAL to include only parts that are necessary for function in the measurement?