Defiance actions are designed to run in those conditions and Glenn Harrison told me personally he designed it for such..
Please dont derail this thread with whatever you're selling.
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Are Defiance actions really this hard to run in dirty conditions?
- Thread starter S3th
- Start date
Defiance actions are designed to run in those conditions and Glenn Harrison told me personally he designed it for such..
Please dont derail this thread with whatever you're selling.
A couple things... First, our newer actions including our Ruckus now come with a little more clearance. The newer actions also have a straight bolt handle design. Second, shops go with our actions because we offer more customizable options than just about any other action out there, including variants with their branding, which is important for businesses. Also, we have sold countless more actions than most of our competitors, with many shooters who use them in the most extreme environments without issue, which some of have even noted their experiences here. That's not to say that issues don't arise, which EVERY manufacturer does/will experience, but when you sell exponentially more, you're also more likely to hear about an issue more than from another manufacturer. Lastly, we're not going to play the game of attacking other manufacturers and/or their designs. We love our competition, we're friends with many of them, and we respect the other companies out there who continue to push innovation, design, and the sport in general. As a company that made it's name with customization and options, it's great to see more options on the market for shooters, period.
Defiance also has anti bind rails. At least my Deviant does.
"Correct" tolerances (I think you meant clearance) is up to the manufacturer to decide, and Defiance has a straight bolt handle as well as several other options so a customer can get exactly what they want. Also, so what if some of the top rifle builders in the USA like GAP and Spartan Precision choose to use their own branded Defiance actions. That shows a builders trust in the product.
Your comment about a Nucleus or Surgeon action being better than Defiance makes me laugh.
I cant wait to get one of my rifles to look like this. Something so visually appealing to a used rifle.
This Defiance has been ran as hard as anyone could run one, and has never let me down....in every condition possible.
Agree. He tries to sound smart but has no clue. Doubt he has really run enough dusty PRS matches to even know.
Typical guy who qualifies himself an expert based on his countless hours reading forums.
Defiance will run with Impact or any of the actions he has mentioned to be "better" but cannot accurately even say why they are 'better'. Ask me how I know defiance will run with them..... Actual first world desert dust experience with three of the actions mentioned.
Hello friend - yeah, resurrecting an older thread.
I received a BA from Altus in May with a Deviant action and Al at Altus told me when buying the action that it would be back in their shop in 2 weeks or so from being Nitrided.
Why your concern about nitriding after being shipped by the manf? Wouldn't Definance also nitride after all machining is completed and hence any impact on material hardness, stress, what have you would be the same...no? Don't know much about this topic so thought to ask.
As for dust and binding, I'm 70...don't compete....live in the mid-Atlantic where we don't have much blowing fine sand and such, and so far am loving the Deviant (which for some reason I always wanted and now have one).
Cheers
My ARC action has a tighter clearance at the back of the bolt and just behind the lugs, so that it’s tight in battery, but the mid section of the bolt has more clearance to tolerate fouling. Are Defiance actions set up the same way? @Defiance Machine
I think what he's getting at is that nitriding is a process that involves very high temperatures, and if the applicator doesn't understand the specs of the steel that made the action, trouble could happen if too high of temps are achieved.
If an applicator was to accidentally expose the action to temperatures that are too high, you could degrade the structural integrity of the action. Not great when they action sits by your face and is exposed to ~65,000 psi of pressure.
Well, yes...I sort of got that idea. My question is why he would NEVER (his word, I believe) buy an action nitrided after shipping from the manufacturer. Perhaps I misread @308pirate.
But, is it not true that both the manf and a place like Altus both nitride after completion of machining and hence the item is liable for high temp damage from either source if not done correctly?
Also, since both straight and angled bolt handles are offset from the center line of the bolt, it would seem to be that both are liable to put side thrust on the bolt with the possibility of inducing binding. Except that the handle on the angled bolt will be slightly rearward of a straight one (and not by all that much) and makes the "lever" you are manipulating a bit longer, I'm confused as to why this is considered significant for bolt biding.
haha...none of this is really critical to me at the moment....I'm still loving my Deviant. I just ask "why" a lot....and yes, I was a very annoying child! hahaha
That's not why. Nitriding is done at relatively low temperatures compared to other case hardening processes like carburize/austenitize/quench.
I'll explain why I don't do nitriding after the fact later when I have time.
ETA @Baron23 @kthomas
So, nitriding is a low temperature case hardening heat treatment with typical processes done between 800 and 1100 F and its followed by a slow, controlled cooldown to room temperature. The relatively low process temp and lack of quenching (compared to the red hot 1500 - 1600 F followed by a ultra rapid cooling in oil quench of austenitizing/quench/temper) means the process produces very low distortion and almost none if careful stress relieving heat treatments are done at the right points in the machining process.
The problems with doing it on a part that is already finished are several.
- Your introducing a very hard surface layer (60 - 70 rockwell C) on parts that maybe weren't designed to have it in the first place
- Depending on the depth of the case hardness and the cross sectional thickness of the parts in question, you may have completely hardened certain portions of the part completely through, ruining any ductility at those thin locations where you least can afford to.
- Nitriding causes dimensional growth. It is small, but it is there. When dealing with parts that are finish machined, how do you know you won't have a problem somewhere?
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people dont understand the real issue with hardness differences on certain parts
particular parts are softer than others for wear/ galling as well as what part the mfg wants to wear out and what part they dont
or what part you want to give and flex when a case pops, so the action doesnt grenade because of thru-hardening that occurred
ex: youd rather your brake pads to wear out rather than the more expensive brake discs
Nothing if Altus knows the exact process that Defiance is specing to their vendor and is then able to verify that it was process was correctly followed when they get it back. How often do you hear about parts getting scrapped after nitriding? All the time, right? Its like the second most popular excuse from a manufacturer.
Its the Altus not knowing what Defiance does and having to make a guess that throws a wrench in the gears. Im spoeculating here but I doubt altus has the spectrometers and hardness checkers and xray machines or other shit I dont know about that Im sure defiance uses.
Before I sent my anTi action off to H&M, I emailed Defiance. I told them who I was sending it to and asked what parts I could and couldn't get done. They gave me a list of what they don't nitride then told me there were no problems sending it to H&M but I should also ask them. H&M said there were no issues so off it went.
Has anyone gotten different info from Defiance or is this just talking in general?
Has anyone gotten different info from Defiance or is this just talking in general?
Mine is just general, Im sure if you send it to the same place defiance does and said to them to do it the defiance way ill be fine but I, as a third party, just have no way to verify that.
Just to be clear I’m not saying that nitriding is a bad idea after purchase..at all
But even if you use the company and they use the same spec process, we/I don’t know the QC process when it gets back to the mfg.
The nitride company will have a release spec but the mfg will have a pre and post range.
That’s the issue…we don’t know the mfg paperwork
But even if you use the company and they use the same spec process, we/I don’t know the QC process when it gets back to the mfg.
The nitride company will have a release spec but the mfg will have a pre and post range.
That’s the issue…we don’t know the mfg paperwork
We only recommend the same companies we use. During times of longer lead times for those vendors, we will often have dealers send them out after receipt, so as to save our dealers time and extra shipping cost that is not necessary. And, should they already have a customer(s) who do not desire nitriding, then it reduces that wait time as well for the order to be shipped.
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