Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

[shark0311]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing impressive about the Tesla is the Company's chutzpa. They're selling a reworked Elise that's 800 lbs heavier than the original, and only gets 55 miles on a charge if driven <span style="font-style: italic">"con brio"</span>, takes 24 hours+ to recharge from a regular 110V outlet (allegedly 3.5 hours <span style="text-decoration: underline">if</span> you have the bespoke 70A 240V charging station), has an 800-lb, $36,000 battery pack that only has a 100,000 mile life expectancy, and the MSRP is twice a regular Elise's.

Even <span style="text-decoration: underline">if</span> the Tesla's battery pack will last 100,000 ,miles (figure the odds), over 250,000 miles of ownership, it would cost about the same if you bought a new Elise every 50,000 miles and simply threw the old one away.

Their 2010 business plan for 2011 was to sell 20,000 of the new $60K Model S sedans. The only problem is, the Model S sedan never made it into production. Which I'm happy to hear because that saves the $150 million in government rebates they were offering.</div></div>

The model S will be available in march and depending on the number of cells has 160-300 mile range. Recharge's at a rate of 62 miles per 1 hour of charge with the 70 amp charger...

Model S

LiFePo4 batteries are rated for 3000 discharge cycles. If you were to travel 300 +- miles per day per year the battery pack would last 8 years with the 300 mile option.

Battery life cycles can also be extended by using a conservative charging regimen.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

GM to call back 8,000 Chevy Volts

DETROIT (AP) — A person briefed on the matter says General Motors will ask Volt owners to bring their electric cars into dealers to strengthen the structure around the batteries.
The move is similar to a recall and involves the 8,000 Volts sold in the U.S. in the past two years.

The move comes after three batteries caught fire after side-impact crash tests done by federal safety regulators. The fires occurred seven days to three weeks after the tests and have been blamed on a coolant leak that caused an electrical short. No fires have broken out in real-world crashes [yet].

The person says GM will contact Volt owners and have them return the cars to dealers for several structural repairs. The repairs are a step below a formal recall.

The person did not want to be identified because GM executives will announce the plan later Thursday.

 

[bassani]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

i think electric cars have their place in society

there is a subset of people that are eco nazis and they will use it no matter what

then there is a subset of the population that actually purchase it based off of their needs ---- less than 50 miles range.

However, hybrids are at this point the best option for most people.

There will be a certain amount of growing pains with any evolving technology so recalls will be expected. I'm just glad that they are being stand up about it and actually recalling and trying to fix the problems rather than just ignoring the issues and stiffing the consumer.

Hell, I'm considering buying a camaro as a 2nd vehicle to drive short distances. I'd buy an electric version of the camaro if they could get the price comparible to the gasoline version.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

The news broke last September that Chevy was mulling over moving Volt production to China to take advantage of their cheaper, non-union labor.

Maybe they Chinese are rethinking that plan now.

 

[pl259]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Regarding motorcycles...
I love to ride and enjoy the better fuel economy, but are they really cleaner burning? My understanding is that motorcylces are behind cars, etc., on that front.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Fisker announces layoffs as automaker misses targets, has DOE loans frozen


Fox Tests Volt, Runs Out Of Juice In Lincoln Tunnel
$47,000 car gets ~30 mpg combined and only 25 miles (electric only) on a 12-hour full charge.

 

[rcdinaz]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I have a 2004 Civic Hybrid, I call it the Fred Flinstone mobile. I swear sometimes I think I will have to peddle that sucker. I also work for a company that has hundreds of engineers that drive all manners of hybrid & electric cars because they are "green". Everything I have read shows that buying a hybrid does not help much if at all. Eventually electric cars will be a solution but the car and the entire smart grid for that matter have to changed. Too involved to go into but the infrastructure and how we deal with electricity needs has to change as much as anything to have success with alternitive sources and electric cars.

All that being said most of the studies I have seen show that the most efficient car all things considered was/is the Civic NGV. As someone else said currently Natural Gas is probably the best solution. Actualy the best solution cited with the lowest "carbon footprint" (BS) and environmental impact is to drive what you already have if it was made in the last 15 years. Emmissions are very low and not buying a new car saves the enormous impact building a car has on energy usage and "the environment" of course a campaign to not buy a car won't get anyone elected and isn't going to make any money.

Oh for the record I also have a lifted Avalanche and a Sequioa for hauling lots of kids and junk around. Do they get great gas mileage nope but they pull trailers and move 4-6 people down the road pretty damn well and don't get stuck in the snow or mud.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fox Tests Volt, Runs Out Of Juice In Lincoln Tunnel
$47,000 car gets ~30 mpg combined and only 25 miles (electric only) on a 12-hour full charge. </div></div>

That kind of reporting says much more about the reporter than it does about the subject. When the Volt "runs out of juice", it transitions seamlessly to the IC engine. It doesn't just leave you stranded in the middle of a tunnel. The car is not my cup of tea (my daily-drivers are a 425HP sedan and a 600+ HP pickup), but for a lot of folks, the Volt works pretty well.

I don't see why people get so uptight about what someone else chooses to build, or to buy. The environment impact of hybrids and EVs is greatly reduced by the fact that the ugly parts are recycled (no one throws away big NiMH packs, because they are too valuable to simply discard). They are safe. They have proven to be quite reliable. The economics are questionable, depending upon driving patterns - but I'm not exactly in a position to attack someone on these grounds considering what I drive.

My biggest gripe with EV and hybrid technology is that it is kinda wasted on passenger cars, since those vehicles see relatively little usage. It would be much better to have invested in the same type of technology for commercial vehicles, since they have driving cycles and utilization rates that are far more interesting, and since high-quality diesel fuel is far more precious than gasoline.

 

[rcdinaz]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I agree with all you have said but think people get bent out of shape for a couple of reasons.
1) a lot of this part of the industry is supported by subsidy and people don't like to see their tax $'s going to something with extremely limited benefit. Your point about making it commercial would stop a lot of the complaining. No one complains about NGV city buses that are paid for by taxes.

2) Many of the people who drive these cars somehow think they are making some grand statement about their understanding of the environment and how much better a global citizen they are. I think this is what really annoys most people.

Funny thing is most people never stop to think about all the $ pumped into taking care of the outdoors by the crazy gun toting redneck who pays higher fuel taxes and added taxes/fees on his huntin' and fishin' hobbies.

 

[fx77]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Remember energy by ordinary means can neither be created nor destroyed. The free market should support the vehicle not my tax dollars.
Remember if you build a better mousetrap the workd will beat a path to your door.

JMHO

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Conservation of energy law has nothing to do with this topic. Entropy IS observed in inefficiency however the relative inefficiency mechanisms between a ICM and electric are not being debated. Related; the greater the quantity of energy conversions, the greater the loss. For example; coal->stream-> steam turbine->mechanical generator->electricity->distribution loss->your gay little car.

Last I checked, the nation’s electricity is predominately harvested from coal (45%). Natural gas is 2nd at 24%. I think that makes most e-car owners ignorant. Add the environmental impact of the current energy storage devices and their relatively short lived life.

Most people do not understand that there is no such thing as free harvest electricity and hydrogen. Most people do not understand the subsidies and hydrocarbon fuels needed to produce ethanol. The eco-hippy is happy with his e-car and hydrocarbons are bad. Do you think you will see some eco-hippy driving a nuclear powered vehicle (20% of US electricity production)? Their heart is in the right spot, their brain is mush.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Savings come slowly for hybrid, electric car owners

Nashville Business Journal by Nevin Batiwalla, Staff Reporter
Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 12:09pm CDT

Nevin Batiwalla
Staff Reporter - Nashville Business Journal

If you're thinking about buying a fuel-efficient hybrid, electric or otherwise eco-friendly vehicle as a way to save money over time, do your homework — or be prepared to wait.
Buyers who choose Nissan's all-electric Leaf ($28,421) over its approximate gas-powered equivalent, Nissan's Versa ($18,640), will likely wait nearly <span style="font-weight: bold">9 years until they break even</span>, according to a new report by The New York Times that examines the cost of fuel efficiency.

For drivers of the Chevrolet Volt ($31,767), <span style="font-weight: bold">the wait is even longer— 26.6 years</span>.

A few vehicles begin paying off relatively soon after leaving the dealership. Two hybrids— Toyota's Prius ($23,537) and Lincoln's MKZ ($33,887)— as well as Volkswagen's diesel-powered Jetta TDI ($25,242) all take less than two years before they start saving their owners money.

Check out this chart by the Times that breaks down the savings delay for many popular fuel-efficient models.

The high price tag of many fuel-efficient vehicles — including the Nissan Leaf, which will soon be made in Smyrna, Tenn. — is one reason consumers have yet to embrace them with open arms.

 

[TNT]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

TLDRDCM - too long, didn't read, don't care (much)

Thank you Boomholzer for identifying the key problem here - efficiency loss. Adding steps to the process is WORSE. These stupid electric cars will only burn more fossil fuels until we aren't supplying our electricity with fossil fuels. End of debate. Eco-car loses on ALL counts.

Any questions?

What we should do is get at least 80% electricity from nuclear, take all the waste and dump it in a deep spot in the ocean. Easy waste stream, no problems. We've got more low-E Uranium than we need for a looooooong time. Then the eco-car makes sense. And if you start freaking out about irradiated fish, you need someone to slap you in the face with a hammer.

 

[luvtolean]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Savings come slowly for hybrid, electric car owners

Nashville Business Journal by Nevin Batiwalla, Staff Reporter
Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 12:09pm CDT

Nevin Batiwalla
Staff Reporter - Nashville Business Journal

If you're thinking about buying a fuel-efficient hybrid, electric or otherwise eco-friendly vehicle as a way to save money over time, do your homework — or be prepared to wait.
Buyers who choose Nissan's all-electric Leaf ($28,421) over its approximate gas-powered equivalent, Nissan's Versa ($18,640), will likely wait nearly <span style="font-weight: bold">9 years until they break even</span>, according to a new report by The New York Times that examines the cost of fuel efficiency.

For drivers of the Chevrolet Volt ($31,767), <span style="font-weight: bold">the wait is even longer— 26.6 years</span>.

A few vehicles begin paying off relatively soon after leaving the dealership. Two hybrids— Toyota's Prius ($23,537) and Lincoln's MKZ ($33,887)— as well as Volkswagen's diesel-powered Jetta TDI ($25,242) all take less than two years before they start saving their owners money.

Check out this chart by the Times that breaks down the savings delay for many popular fuel-efficient models.

The high price tag of many fuel-efficient vehicles — including the Nissan Leaf, which will soon be made in Smyrna, Tenn. — is one reason consumers have yet to embrace them with open arms. </div></div>

I wonder how many of these so called "authors" actually have owned a Leaf for a while. (the above Fox "piece is even more stupid) I have, and it's definitely cheaper than the Versa, as well as simply just being a better car for some uses. I'm not sure what they mean by "consumers embrace" but they've sold 11,000 Leafs in a year in the US, that's not too shabby at all. I actually posted the math of our real world costs compared to just fuel for a Versa on another thread here on the 'Hide and it was 3 years to break even, not including certain other costs the Versa has a Leaf doesn't like oil changes.

I have to say, I've been perplexed by the response on gun forums to e-cars. I know they're marketed under BS enviro-hype, but if you look past this, they have advantages regarding our reliance on foreign oil, coal is mostly domestically mined, there are always nukes and we have uranium, they offer a alternate mode of transport relying on a different energy supply chain for now so-called preppers, etc etc.

TNT, with the sea nuke waste thing again...I sure hope to hell you're never in a place to make these decisions.

 

[TNT]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Luvtolean,

Are you a motorcycle guy? Have to believe it with that SN. What do you ride? I'm going mad waiting to get out on my R6 again here soon. I have some family in the Bay Area and been thinking about doing the Cali Superbike School out there.

I don't know what your background is on nuclear tech, but I have some experience in this field. I recognize the fear of the unknown and that ionizing radiation is an unseen killer. Honestly, it scares the crap out of me, which is why I am glad that I have had the opportunity to learn about it and realize that most of my fears are misdirected. I've been close enough to rad waste that normally would kill a man in minutes, but for nothing but a pool of water in between me and it.

When you do the analysis, and run the math, it turns out there's only one big reason not to dump rad waste into the ocean - it's actually pretty valuable, and if you improve reprocessing capabilities, then dumping once-cycled fuel is really just throwing away money. But until we allow and improve reprocessing, it is the most economical solution, and it's a heck of a lot safer than a lot of the alternatives we have used to date. Would you rather have someone bury spent fuel in your yard? Well, I'd actually be ok with that too, if a few conditions are met...

Personally, if I had a plot of land in Nevada or Montana or Idaho somewhere and the .gov would pay me to store spent fuel there, I'd hit 'em up for all they are worth. Easy money and security covered by the government, and I don't have to do a darn thing but let some casks sit on my property? Sweet. But there are people that freak out about this stuff going into a mountain, in casks that I have put my hands on. Give me a break. And when you consider the ocean would be even more removed and orders of magnitude more shielding, then you can't deny that it's a pretty good solution.

Please, tell me what you think would happen if we dumped spent fuel in the ocean - why it would be a bad idea, what chain of events would occur to impact who/what/when/why.

Until I hear some compelling evidence to the contrary, I'll continue to say that if we are serious about fixing the environment (if we have really even screwed it up in the first place), we can't run cars on batteries until we stop burning fossil fuels to charge those batteries. You'd rather burn more coal to get the same amount of energy? Do you realize how many people die as a result of the coal industry every year? Do you know how radioactive coal is? Again and again, ask, "what are the facts?" Don't let emotions and ignorance rule. We've done that for far too long and looks where it's gotten us.

edit: p.s. I knew I was forgetting something, anyways, besides all this stuff we debate and won't really solve, what I really wanted to ask is if you've been to Sears Point or Laguna Seca, and how'd you like them?

 

[THE MGD]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

The 3 main concerns that have kept me away from elect. cars

1) price, technology, and durability of battery cells. (anything ive ownwd that I consistantly have to charge, dosent charge like it did when it was new)

2) recharge stations limit my travel distance or planned route. (havent seen a spare battery "jerry can" I can slap on the back of my jeep)

3) cost of maintenace. (i work on my own engines , but some of these new electronic modules make my life difficult, especially when its dealer only parts, tools or diagnostics. I would hate to see my dealer maint bill)

 

[h4everything]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TMcGinnis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as pricing and cost to consumer... quite possibly.
My father has a Chevy Volt. It charges at night on a 220 volt outlet and costs him about 1.17 a day to charge. There was a $7000 rebate for buying the car, and he has used less than .5 gallon of gasoline since buying it 3 months ago. 40 mile range for city/highway driving... pretty cool. </div></div>

We (the governement) helped chevy sell that car and your dad to buy it.

The real question is how many thousands of tons of ore have to be mined to make the batteries and how much diesel is burned mining the material, then how much energy is expended to make the batteries. Without the subsidies the electrics and hybrids have to be driven over 200,000 miles (and more in some cases)before coming close to covering the extra cost. Its a tough deal and even as expensive as gas is as long as the majority of people need a 4WD suv or truck with one kid (I drive a 4WD truck myself)we will continue to use more than we need and cost more money.

Right now CNG powered vehicles are showing alot of promise. Seeing forecast of gas below $1/1000 BTU. Thats pretty damn cheap.

I would like to see the tractor trailers running on it myself.

 

[luvtolean]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... Again and again, ask, "what are the facts?" Don't let emotions and ignorance rule. We've done that for far too long and looks where it's gotten us.</div></div>

I know that James Cameron just took a manned submersible to the bottom of Challenger Deep.

So while I don't like the "idea" of the environmental side, without a ton of data to back my fears other than a general knowledge it's really nasty shit and stays nasty shit a long long time, I really hate the idea of humans being able to find a stockpile of this stuff and collecting it for their potentially nefarious purposes.

I will say, I had a tech that worked for GE nukes. His contamination stories will scare the hell out of you. Even worse, many of the PhD nuke scientists he worked with died of cancer in their 50's. These were the people with more knowledge than anyone, and they didn't even know enough to protect themselves.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">edit: p.s. I knew I was forgetting something, anyways, besides all this stuff we debate and won't really solve, what I really wanted to ask is if you've been to Sears Point or Laguna Seca, and how'd you like them?
</div></div>

Yes, I have ridden both many times and raced at Sears several times. Thanks for calling it Sears and not Infineon BTW.

Sears is cool, Laguna is superlative. The Corkscrew feels like you're riding off the end of the earth.

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Yes, because electricity comes from magic and unicorn farts.
And the prius is built in a mystical castle by keebler elves using recycled plastic bags then shipped to America on solar powered boats driven by fairies. Every time you honk the horn a new tree is born in the rain forest.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

No - batteries cost a lot to produce. H4everything already said everything i would have on the subject.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

REPORT: ELECTRIC CARS HAVE TWICE THE ‘GLOBAL WARMING POTENTIAL’ OF TRADITIONAL VEHICLES

 

[klf]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boomholzer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Conservation of energy law has nothing to do with this topic. Entropy IS observed in inefficiency however the relative inefficiency mechanisms between a ICM and electric are not being debated. Related; the greater the quantity of energy conversions, the greater the loss. For example; coal->stream-> steam turbine->mechanical generator->electricity->distribution loss->your gay little car.

Last I checked, the nation’s electricity is predominately harvested from coal (45%). Natural gas is 2nd at 24%. I think that makes most e-car owners ignorant. Add the environmental impact of the current energy storage devices and their relatively short lived life.

Most people do not understand that there is no such thing as free harvest electricity and hydrogen. Most people do not understand the subsidies and hydrocarbon fuels needed to produce ethanol. The eco-hippy is happy with his e-car and hydrocarbons are bad. Do you think you will see some eco-hippy driving a nuclear powered vehicle (20% of US electricity production)? Their heart is in the right spot, their brain is mush.
</div></div>
I love breaking an enviro-nazi's balls by calling his electric car a coal burner.

 

[klf]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

maxpower220
However, since oil is still fairly cheap, my goal is too use/purchase all of our crude oil needs from the Middle East and not to use any oil from the U.S. Once the oil field in that region dry up, all of the world's problems from there will go away. At that point, the U.S. could become the leading exporter of oil and none of our citizens would have to work again for a few decades. Just a thought. [/quote]

That is the part nobody thinks about. Let's burn their oil even at inflated prices and keep ours for later.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I like the idea of a Prius. I also like the new Ford for 2013 which is a better Prius. http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/

What I like about them is the engineering elegance of regenerative braking. Of course it gets batteries, electronics, extra motors, etc. into the equation. Hybrids have been around now for well over a decade and are improving. Electric only cars will be limited for along time because of limited infrastructure support and long recharging times, as discussed in this thread.

I have never driven a Prius and my 2001 Chev 4x4 sure loves fuel. But every vehicle has mechanical advantages and limitations. Natural gas is at the point now where it could put the coal industry out of business and make a huge difference for vehicle, electrical generation and exports.

Developing the infrastructure to support widespread natural gas use will take a 1/2 decade at least. Natural gas is a large upcoming issue for big oil because the economics of fracking and natural gas prices. Is exactly the opposite of the rising expense of oil exploration in the arctic and deep water. Natural gas is the same price as it was a decade ago. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas

For anyone who hates the idea of big oil, pan Arab oil exports, etc. Natural gas could bring them back to earth.

US gas reserves:
http://www.naturalgas.org/overview/resources.asp

 

[Maggot]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I dont know much about it, prefer a Mercedes diesel, but I always loved the name Prius...like, "After we crashed because accelerator stuck, they had to Prius (Pry-Us)out of it".

Footnote in quoteing, please.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Electric vehicles ARE the answer, just not now.

Batteries are toxic and take a shit load of chemicals and petrol and lead/zinc etc to manufacture...

Disposing of them, the generated electricity to charge them.

Someday they'll be pure solar and will make it worth while - except we'll never see that day because the oil companies, car companies etc will not be able to ass rape you if you don't have to refill it.

The ultimate answer - water seperated into HH0 on the fly - runs from garden hose...

until that day, current electric vehicles are just as bad for the environment if not worse. </div></div>

This, and the fact that, beyond the heavy pollution caused by the mining and smelting the heavy metals for batteries, we then have to use energy to ...

... mine and ship the minerals to a processing site on the other side of the world.

... ship the processed ore to a manufacturing plant.

... manufacture the batteries.

... ship the manufactured batteries to the auto plant.

... install the batteries in the cars on the assembly line.

... transport the assembled cars to ports and load them.

... ship them to target markets and deliver to dealers.

Seriously, unless the plants to do all the work are in a direct line between source and market, the environmental cost is beyond staggering. Unfortunately, transshipment of supplies and manufactured goods is the rule rather than the exception. If Penn & Teller haven't yet done a BS segment on electric vehicles, they damned well should.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

^^^^^^^But after the battery dies, we have the joy of shipping them back to africa, or cambodia, or china, to tear apart and recycle. Its called population controll, especially when the people begin to glow at night. Read in the dark and all.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Electric vehicles ARE the answer, just not now.

Batteries are toxic and take a shit load of chemicals and petrol and lead/zinc etc to manufacture...

Disposing of them, the generated electricity to charge them.

Someday they'll be pure solar and will make it worth while - except we'll never see that day because the oil companies, car companies etc will not be able to ass rape you if you don't have to refill it.

The ultimate answer - water seperated into HH0 on the fly - runs from garden hose...

until that day, current electric vehicles are just as bad for the environment if not worse. </div></div>

This, and the fact that, beyond the heavy pollution caused by the mining and smelting the heavy metals for batteries, we then have to use energy to ...

... mine and ship the minerals to a processing site on the other side of the world.

... ship the processed ore to a manufacturing plant.

... manufacture the batteries.

... ship the manufactured batteries to the auto plant.

... install the batteries in the cars on the assembly line.

... transport the assembled cars to ports and load them.

... ship them to target markets and deliver to dealers.

Seriously, unless the plants to do all the work are in a direct line between source and market, the environmental cost is beyond staggering. Unfortunately, transshipment of supplies and manufactured goods is the rule rather than the exception. If Penn & Teller haven't yet done a BS segment on electric vehicles, they damned well should. </div></div>

Heavy metals have not been used in EV or hybrid main drive batteries. Nickel–metal hydride compounds for first generations now Li batteries. Although batteries involve potentially dangerous compounds and the auto wrecking industry is notorious for cavalier recycling practices.

"The three primary functional components of a lithium-ion battery are the negative electrode, positive electrode, and the electrolyte. The negative electrode of a conventional lithium-ion cell is made from carbon. The positive electrode is a metal oxide, and the electrolyte is a lithium salt in an organic solvent.[8] The electrochemical roles of the electrodes change between anode and cathode, depending on the direction of current flow through the cell.

The most commercially popular negative electrode material is graphite. The positive electrode is generally one of three materials: a layered oxide (such as lithium cobalt oxide), a polyanion (such as lithium iron phosphate), or a spinel (such as lithium manganese oxide).[9]

The electrolyte is typically a mixture of organic carbonates such as ethylene carbonate or diethyl carbonate containing complexes of lithium ions.[10] These non-aqueous electrolytes generally use non-coordinating anion salts such as lithium hexafluorophosphate (LiPF6), lithium hexafluoroarsenate monohydrate (LiAsF6), lithium perchlorate (LiClO4), lithium tetrafluoroborate (LiBF4), and lithium triflate (LiCF3SO3)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

A draw back to hybrids is the cost of battery replacement. Figure $2800 installed at 8-10 years and 140-200k miles. So you have to save $300 a year in fuel to pay for battery replacement.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Do you seriously believe that moving towards a lithium-based cell is any better?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science...d-benefits1.htm

The impact is still intolerable.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you seriously believe that moving towards a lithium-based cell is any better?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science...d-benefits1.htm

The impact is still intolerable. </div></div>

Intolerable?? Well I'm not going to say these products are not recycling and manufacturing nonissues. I don't like these exotic difficult to recycle products, but intolerable?

I don't think that 9 lbs a year of recycling(90 lb battery 2013 Prius) over 10 years out of a 3000 lb car is what you are making it out to be. The core is valued at over $800. And the car is likely to go to the scrapper at 20 years like most other cars.

There are probably lots of members on this site that shoot off 9 lbs of lead on a Sunday afternoon, if not a weekend. Most bullet lead isn't recycled. I've personally sent over 8.5 lbs of lead over the landscape on numerous occasions, in one day.None of it to be ever recycled.

Audi built a car for a couple years that was a hybrid killer(80 mpg) the Audi A2. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/audi-a2-first-drive-review
A 2000 lb all aluminum turbo diesel. But there was insufficient demand and production was halted.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I want my 83 (or was it 84) Honda civic back... that got 54mpg.

My parents have two Honda hybrids and will be going back to gas or maybe diesel if I can talk them into it. They lucked out on the insight battery died just before the warranty expired.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Electric vehicles are NOT the answer

First our aging grid will not support a nation of electric vehicle users

Second our main source of producing electricity is coal, wind n solar can NOT provide enough power for this nation

We are the Saudi of natural gas, we have the largest natural gas deposits in the world, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs. Yet the whole focus is electric which is not a viable solution.
LPG conversions can to done to almost any vehicle, its CHEAP its CLEAN.
Yet not a single US car maker offers a vehicle designed to take advantage of this resource, Nor is GOV pushing technology.
We have the resource and tech right now to move from oil for powering our vehicles ... and to date we have not
This is not new tech, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs, you can buy conversion kits for your car
So why is there little to no interest from our Gov for using this resource? If the environment and energy independence was truly our goal you would be driving a LPG vehicle today.
Electric cars are not a solution nor is wind n solar our grid simply will NOT support it without massive upgrades, we lose more than 25% of all electricity produced in transmission thru our aging power grid ... yet we have no plans to address issue.
In fact we seem to do everything we can to NOT be energy independent.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Electric vehicles are NOT the answer

First our aging grid will not support a nation of electric vehicle users

Second our main source of producing electricity is coal, wind n solar can NOT provide enough power for this nation

We are the Saudi of natural gas, we have the largest natural gas deposits in the world, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs. Yet the whole focus is electric which is not a viable solution.
LPG conversions can to done to almost any vehicle, its CHEAP its CLEAN.
Yet not a single US car maker offers a vehicle designed to take advantage of this resource, Nor is GOV pushing technology.
We have the resource and tech right now to move from oil for powering our vehicles ... and to date we have not
This is not new tech, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs, you can buy conversion kits for your car
So why is there little to no interest from our Gov for using this resource? If the environment and energy independence was truly our goal you would be driving a LPG vehicle today.
Electric cars are not a solution nor is wind n solar our grid simply will NOT support it without massive upgrades, we lose more than 25% of all electricity produced in transmission thru our aging power grid ... yet we have no plans to address issue.
In fact we seem to do everything we can to NOT be energy independent. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Agree</span> with most of that, except:

Proven- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_proven_reserves

Unconventional- http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/06/focus

 

[Jedi]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

First or second
http://news.yahoo.com/us-releases-estimate-utica-shale-reserves-180236367.html

not really important
Use of resource or lack there of was point

 

[Maggot]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Electric vehicles are NOT the answer

First our aging grid will not support a nation of electric vehicle users

Second our main source of producing electricity is coal, wind n solar can NOT provide enough power for this nation

We are the Saudi of natural gas, we have the largest natural gas deposits in the world, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs. Yet the whole focus is electric which is not a viable solution.
LPG conversions can to done to almost any vehicle, its CHEAP its CLEAN.
Yet not a single US car maker offers a vehicle designed to take advantage of this resource, Nor is GOV pushing technology.
We have the resource and tech right now to move from oil for powering our vehicles ... and to date we have not
<span style="color: #FF0000">This is not new tech, Europe has been running LPG vehicles for 20+ yrs, you can buy conversion kits for your car </span>
So why is there little to no interest from our Gov for using this resource? If the environment and energy independence was truly our goal you would be driving a LPG vehicle today.
Electric cars are not a solution nor is wind n solar our grid simply will NOT support it without massive upgrades, we lose more than 25% of all electricity produced in transmission thru our aging power grid ... yet we have no plans to address issue.
In fact we seem to do everything we can to NOT be energy independent. </div></div>

We've had them here for longer than that. A friend of mine had his PU truck set up so he could run it on either gasoline or LP/CNG, and switch between them with no major headache...just turn a valve if I remember. That was 40 years ago.Why havent we shanged...Til recently, cheap gas, and HUGE lobbys from the majors, read, EXXON. Another factor I think is that Ameericns tend to like power, and you just dont get the blazeing acceleration from natural gas.

 

[Phil1]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First or second
http://news.yahoo.com/us-releases-estimate-utica-shale-reserves-180236367.html

not really important
Use of resource or lack there of was point </div></div>

Absolutely right. Build gas turbine power stations and natural gas vehicles including heavy trucks. Fast track CNG export terminals and oil will go back to $45 a bbl.

The mullahs in Iran can go back to rug weaving.

 

[bassani]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

electric cars = not there yet

maybe another 5-10 years if they keep at it

 

[Downzero]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

The problems for the environment will likely continue as long as combustion, no matter what the fuel, is necessary for the release of energy to push the vehicle. The long run solution isn't finding a cleaner combustion engine--it's finding an energy soruce that doesn't need to be burned at all to produce power. If the answer involves electricity produced by wind, solar, or some other non-combustion process, the next challenge is storing the energy, for which we have had very little meaningful improvement in a long time.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

A lot of very good points throughout this thread.

I am a powertrain engineer for one of the USA's "Big Three", so this is a topic I both know a lot about, and care a lot about.

The short answer: We should be using Natural Gas.

The slightly longer answer: We should be exploiting the oil WE have access to, and using CNG for the rest of our transportation needs.

The long answer:

Electric cars have their purposes, but as an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) replacement, they suck. Because rifles are relatively inexpensive, it's pretty easy to have many. A 22 to plink with, a 22-250 for varmints, a 308 for typical useage, a 260 for matches, and a 338LM for ELR. However, because automobiles are NOT inexpensive, we can't have one for short trips around town, another for commuting to/from work, a third vehicle for roadtrips and a fourth for hauling shit around. The electric car is fine for short trips to town and short-range commuting. That's it. A roadtrip is obviously out of the question, as it takes 8+ hours to recharge. We need to refuel our vehicles in 10 minutes.

Someday the electric car might be more practical for "everyday" American useage, but that day is not today. Politicians and treehuggers ramming the concept of these down our throats via legislation and subsidies is insane.

Wind, solar, biofuels: They're great... but they can't supply the USA with the sheer quantity of energy that it needs. The business case for them is also non-existent. When it makes business sense to further wind and solar, they'll become more prolific. It's insane to "force" their useage. Same thing for bio/algae diesel. E85 however, is a friggin boondoggle. There is a fixed amount of corn available. We can either eat it, or burn it as fuel. Thus, when we choose to burn it in our cars and trucks, that diminishes our food supply, raising its price. That's stupid. I don't know why anyone would pump E85 into their vehicle. You pay 10% less money to get 25% less goods. That makes zero sense whatsoever. I do admit however, that I pump E85 into rental cars just before I return them. It's the cheapest way to make the fuel gage read "full".

Natural Gas: We have enough of it available to completely replace all other fossil fuel useage in this country, and maintain our current energy useage for <span style="font-weight: bold">700 YEARS</span>. That's right. Plus, it works great with our current technology. Plus, it emits 15% less CO2 than gasoline, if you care about that kind of thing.

In closing, I like the concept of transcending beyond the use of fossil fuels, and everybody holding hands and singing Kum-bai-ya, but we need to get real. That all will come when there is a sound business case to be made for it.

Until then, the USA needs energy - to create electricity, to manufacture stuff, to transport that stuff, and to transport the people around so they can make and buy stuff. The fossil fuels are sitting there waiting to be extracted and used. Either the USA gets it and uses it, or somebody else will - and they'll probably make use of it with no regard to pollution whatsoever.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Good points. However, the problem with natural gas is storage for usage in cars and in bulk.

 

[Armed Citizen]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I still prefer my Cummins Diesel

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

Lots of folks are talking up natural gas. That's fine and all; it's currently very inexpensive. But looking back over the past decade, there has been a lot of variation in NG pricing (back in Oct. '05, it was trading at about 4x the present price). I've heard from suppliers in the NG industry that the current price isn't high enough to sustain investment, so expect prices to increase in the future.

LNG is also rather difficult (read: expensive) to store. A 65-gallon double-walled cryogenic vessel that would provide similar range to the 38-gallon diesel tank in my Super Duty would cost around $3-5k (depending on stainless-steel spot prices on that particular day). There are also some interesting maintenance challenges with such a tank.

On the plus side, the heavy truck industry seems to have found success running LNG direct-injection on engines based upon diesel architectures. Due to the strength of such engines, rather impressive power levels can be achieved (Westland's 15L is a good example).

A few other comments:

- Folks still insist that batteries are somehow "toxic". While old-school NiCad batteries are pretty nasty, the NiMH batteries used in some current hybrids are pretty benign. Nickel mining is pretty nasty, but I'm assuming that all those who are taking the moral high ground on this topic have also completely eliminated their consumption of stainless steel, right? This will be a non-issue in another five years or so as lithium-ion batteries completely displace NiMH as the technology of choice. Lithium batteries have a bit of nastiness in the form of an organic electrolyte, but it shouldn't be of any concern to anyone who routinely puts their ass a few feet away from 20 gallons of gasoline.

- Misplaced (and often disingenuous) concerns about environment and safety aside, the energy storage mechanism remains the main obstacle to making electric cars successful. Energy density (on a joule-per-unit-mass, joule-per-unit-volume, and joule-per-unit-cash) of chemical storage batteries is still a couple orders of magnitude worse than fossil fuels. Don't expect any miracles from the present configuration of lithium batteries; they are remarkable close to the theoretic maximum storage density.

- The motors for all-electric propulsion are not cheap, and this is not a situation that is likely to improve with increased production volume.

- Too many people wrote off the internal combustion engine as not having any remaining development potential. The last five years have seen some remarkable advances for the humble spark-ignition ICE, and there is more yet to come from non-metallic materials, advanced combustion processes (we'll see the lines blurred between "gas" and "diesel" in coming years), forced induction, etc. Combining such an engine with some electric assistance offers an all too rare opportunity to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[346ci]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I will be driving my '93 Nissan hardbody and '92 S10 4.3L until I can afford a Duramax. Will I really need a Duramax? More than likely not until my business gets going but its my money and there is nothing like the sound of a straight piped turbo diesel. Yes, I plan to roll coal on some tree huggers. I'm sure everyone knows that the electric cars you speak of are much more damaging than the thick black smoke from a hopped up diesel.

I do recycle plastics though and jump at the chance to do some logging. There is no reason for a pine tree to be standing, much better uses for it on the ground.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

My wife and I found ourselves in need of a new "used" car awhile back and she said, "I had a geo metro in the early 90s that got fifty miles per gallon, so I want something that gets 50mpg". It seemed like a reasonable request. Unfortunately the only real options were an older diesel jetta, civic hybrid (so I thought), and prius. After doing some research and testing the civic hybrid was a piece of shit. Also, given the usually higher price of diesel over regular unleaded the prius was the best option. I am a v8 RWD drive all the way. But like stated earlier, for a commuter car it didn't make financial sense. My wife was freelance interpreting and driving about 50k a year. We bought it with 40k on it and it now has 85k. So far I have been very impressed and I definitely held a swayed opinion against it from the start. It is funny though how the "hippie" and "tree-hugger" comments always come up, but call me what you want I have a vehicle that seats four and has Stereo, AC, Heat, etc. that gets better gas mileage than your harley.

Commuter cars serve a purpose.........and that purpose is not pulling pussy from the local hangout.

Ern

 

[Maggot]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

What ever happened to American Muscle?...Plymouth 426 Street Hemi.Yes!!!!!

 

[pdogsbeware]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fng23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Commuter cars serve a purpose.....</div></div> I agree completely. It's a societal thing, Americans need huge, flashy, powerful cars (the whole keeping up with the Jones' thing). Europeans drive small compacts that get amazing mileage, because it's acceptable to drive a practical (read: small) vehicles.

There's nothing wrong with a big truck if you actually USE it. But it's sad/funny how many people I know that have 3/4 tons and have never hauled anything, never pulled a trailer, never even been on dirt roads, then complain about the high gas prices when they fill up haha.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What ever happened to American Muscle?...Plymouth 426 Street Hemi.</div></div>

Yeah, there aren't any more powerful American cars. I mean, the new Camaro ZL1 has only 580 HP, the Vette ZR1 has 638 HP, the Caddy CTS-V has only 556 HP, the '13 Mustang GT500 has a measly 662 HP, and if you're a real pussy then Chrysler will sell you a variety of full-size cars with 470 HP.

Bunch of weak crap, I tell ya. You know that they suck because they can actually stop and turn, and no real man would ever be caught in a car that can do those things. That sort of performance is for <span style="font-style: italic">furrin</span> crap.

Oh - and most of the aforementioned will also get 20+ MPG on the highway. Dammit, how I hate modern performance cars!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's nothing wrong with a big truck if you actually USE it. But it's sad/funny how many people I know that have 3/4 tons and have never hauled anything, never pulled a trailer, never even been on dirt roads, then complain about the high gas prices when they fill up haha. </div></div>

I'm not going to get into the business of complaining about other people's decisions. Most people with a Prius don't drive enough to realize the fuel savings, most people with pickups drive them empty the vast majority of the time, minivan owners hardly ever haul more than three or four people, station wagon owners aren't always carting around a bunch of kayaks or guitar amps, and full-size van owners are rarely in the plumbing or kidnapping business. But I don't care, because I don't want anyone else telling me what I should be driving, no more than I want anyone else telling me what firearms I can and cannot own.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What ever happened to American Muscle?...Plymouth 426 Street Hemi.</div></div>

Yeah, there aren't any more powerful American cars. I mean, the new Camaro ZL1 has only 580 HP, the Vette ZR1 has 638 HP, the Caddy CTS-V has only 556 HP, the '13 Mustang GT500 has a measly 662 HP, and if you're a real pussy then Chrysler will sell you a variety of full-size cars with 470 HP.

Bunch of weak crap, I tell ya. You know that they suck because they can actually stop and turn, and no real man would ever be caught in a car that can do those things. That sort of performance is for <span style="font-style: italic">furrin</span> crap.

Oh - and most of the aforementioned will also get 20+ MPG on the highway. Dammit, how I hate modern performance cars!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's nothing wrong with a big truck if you actually USE it. But it's sad/funny how many people I know that have 3/4 tons and have never hauled anything, never pulled a trailer, never even been on dirt roads, then complain about the high gas prices when they fill up haha. </div></div>

I'm not going to get into the business of complaining about other people's decisions. Most people with a Prius don't drive enough to realize the fuel savings, most people with pickups drive them empty the vast majority of the time, minivan owners hardly ever haul more than three or four people, station wagon owners aren't always carting around a bunch of kayaks or guitar amps, and full-size van owners are rarely in the plumbing or kidnapping business. But I don't care, because I don't want anyone else telling me what I should be driving, no more than I want anyone else telling me what firearms I can and cannot own. </div></div>

I stand corrected.

 

[Gildoom]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

No. Electricity comes from somewhere, and 99% of the power generated in this country is something an enviro-nazi despises.

There is a great show that Top Gear did, talking about how horrible these cars are for the environment.

With that said, one of the guys I ski with came up with a hybrid lexus SUV one year, I was flickin him crap for it. Then he pointed out, car pool lane, lower registration, and at the time, decreased tax bill. We looked into a clean diesel for a tax break but the tax breaks expired for the vehicles we looked at so we went good ole truck again.

My wife's commute is 3 miles, mine is close to zero, so we could have a tank and it wouldn't matter for our wallets or the earth.

I just have so much hate and anger towards people who want vehicles limited by law, trying to corral people into a niche to fit what they think is good. The free market will produce winners way faster than some stupid government, regardless of whomever is at the helm.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: Are electric vehicles better than gas vehicles?

I just really miss my old 1987 Honda CRX HF that got 50 to 65 miles to the gallon depending on how you drove it, back in the day when gas was in the $0.87 per gallon range.

Apparently according to what I heard from a friend that was talking with one of the Executives from the North American division of Honda, people ask him that all the time and the answer is that due to all the government mandated things they have to put on cars now days & all the extra emissions regulations, the cars are just too heavy for a tiny little engine to pull and the engine can't run as un-restricted as before.

The current biggest problem with all the hybrid and electric cars is the weight of the batteries totally kills the potential, or if you go with small batteries it is rather range limited.

The Hydrogen cars (such as the Honda Clarity) show a lot of promise just the whole where to fill them up thing. But they offer a very interesting fix for a lot of important things:

1. Oil company profits:
Big oil can make even more money than before, just install a nuclear reactor or two and use it to make Hydrogen out of water.
Or if you don't want that, then just make it out of natural gas.

2. Government can still get their taxes all the time:
Making enough Hydrogen at home is rather expensive so most people would just fill up and the government can still tax it easily which is what they really care about.

3. Range issues:
The Hydrogen cars can provide near as good range as a average commuter car and can be filled up in a couple minutes.

4. Offer something for the green / do it yourselfers:
For those with money who want to make the fuel themselves, there are systems that hook up to your incoming natural gas line and make hydrogen to fill your car while heating your hot water. Or if you want to be really tree hugger about it, then you can get one of the kits to use solar power to slowly get hydrogen from water.

It would however require a bit of government investment and such but as long as the big companies that really run the country see that they are guaranteed even better profits with less risk then it may be workable.