Night Vision Armasight Zeus 4 Thermal Weapon Sight
- Thread starter BATTLE CREEK
- Start date
Well I decided to go ahead and get the Zeus 4 mostly because for my budget of $4500 it was the best option. I've been looking for some time and checked out the t14x. I wasnt very impressed. The t14x is basically a jail broken TM-X with an added eyepiece for eye relief and an ARMS mount. Hardly worth the extra $1200. The Night Vision Guys did me right on the new Armasight. I will post a review when I get a chance.
I got a response from Armasight today concerning the recoil capability of the Zeus 4. Steven Budovlya said that is designed to withstand .308 caliber recoil with no problem. It was no designed to take recoil from a 12 guage. ( if you wanted to shoot shotgun I guess ) I inquired about recoil from a 458 SOCOM and am still waiting for a response.
Update:
Armasight called today and said that my scope is on backorder due to lack of parts. Seems everyone and their brother are ordering the scope with the 42mm objective. He did offer to upgrade me to the 75mm objective for free and it was ready to ship. The 75mm would make it a 7x and for my needs is a bit too much magnification. Looks like I get to wait about 2 weeks before i can post any reviews.
Armasight called today and said that my scope is on backorder due to lack of parts. Seems everyone and their brother are ordering the scope with the 42mm objective. He did offer to upgrade me to the 75mm objective for free and it was ready to ship. The 75mm would make it a 7x and for my needs is a bit too much magnification. Looks like I get to wait about 2 weeks before i can post any reviews.
The Zeus 4 160 is an awesome price. What pisses me off is that they use the same photos whether its the 160 - 320 - 640 sensor. My guess is that they came from the 640. I hope that you actually got to see one of these units before ordering. If you went by photos alone, you are probably going to be quite disappointed when the unit is in hand. With deseptive marketing like this, I would avoid the company as a whole. I'm looking forward to your review.
Tell Armasight if they want to use the site they should pay for account instead of having members do it for them. It's not fair to the ones that do pay.
While I appreciate the disclaimer, working for them posting reviews, unpaid or otherwise is still advertising for them. Especially if you are gonna field questions for them.
While I appreciate the disclaimer, working for them posting reviews, unpaid or otherwise is still advertising for them. Especially if you are gonna field questions for them.
My main concern with the units is the warranty. They stated it is only a manufacturers defects warranty and as ncorry mentioned and one should take in consideration is that it is not a FLIR core.
It's not a flir sensor yet there is a flir image in the pics due to its flir focal array (whatever that is)Yet again more deseptive advertising. Armasight can suck a fat one! They will never get a penny from me. You are a good dude delta. I'd steer clear of these suckholes.
One spot on the Armasight website says that all of the Zeus thermal scopes use the "latest FLIR Tau 2 uncooled microbolometer cameras" and another spot says that they use "latest FLIR Tau 2 VOx microbolometer". FLIR's website shows the Tau 2 camera cores. So, I'm going to believe that Armasight actually uses FLIR cores unless someone has a real compelling argument.
As for the warranty, ATN and N-Vision's websites both list 1-year warranties in workmanship and manufacturing defects of materials, and the FLIR commercial units have a 2 year warranty. I guess I'm missing the point of the Armasight bashing that seems to be gaining momentum. I'm not on anyone's side and am just interested in learning as much as I can about these thermal scopes before plunking down my dough on one.
I'm normally a lurker but had my share of Russian NV from ATN that was pretty bad, real bad in some instances. I know cry once and buy the good stuff. But let me get this straight. The ex owner of ATN is this company (I thought) I read from another forum, starts a new company with all the claims of quality this or that by using members here for free gear reviews and deceptive advertising, like ATN has always done. Is not all the Armasight stuff still made in Russia like all that ATN stuff but now we just have a different name? Seems like nothing has changed.
At first I thought it was FLIR but then I noticed this wording which makes me question the Core: (Key word is based on..) Reminds me of the horror films that are "based on a true story". When I spoke with someone that worked at FLIR they did not seem to know that Armasight used the cores. However, maybe I was misinformed. We like FLIR so if Armasight does use FLIR products than I know Armasight is attempting to establish themselves as a reputable company and I'm sure they would work at resolving any issues. I have no problem calling FLIR and asking again.
The Armasight Zeus is based on the absolute latest FLIR Tau 2 uncooled microbolometer camera. There are three FLIR sensor arrays in the Armasight line to choose from: 160×120 with pixel size of 25 microns, 336×256 with pixel size of 17 microns and even 640×480 also with pixel size of 17 microns. The larger the array and the smaller the size of the pixel, the better resolution image you get. FLIR core technology offers amazing thermal sensitivity and image quality.
The Armasight Zeus is based on the absolute latest FLIR Tau 2 uncooled microbolometer camera. There are three FLIR sensor arrays in the Armasight line to choose from: 160×120 with pixel size of 25 microns, 336×256 with pixel size of 17 microns and even 640×480 also with pixel size of 17 microns. The larger the array and the smaller the size of the pixel, the better resolution image you get. FLIR core technology offers amazing thermal sensitivity and image quality.
Good point, and thanks for the insight. Camille, I'd think that a company like ModArmory would have already been approached by Armasight's sales team.
Is Armasight the new repackaged ATN ex-president's company?
I don't speak for them, or even have an intimate knowledge of the company, but my understanding is not that he is the ex owner of atn, but an ex employee, with several people from other companies partnering up. The above is not fact, just what I think I know, based on little to no factual evidence.
Sounds like some Wilson Combat/ Nighthawk Custom drama where legend has it that Bill and his wife got divorced so she hooked up with a couple members of the mgmt team, snagged a few smiths, and started Nighthawk. Both are bad ass 1911s and each offers completely different weapons. I have an extensive array of each, but my first Nighthawk graces me to every range trip.
This will be the 4th thermal I've owned and the 160 is pretty familiar to me. What I look forward to is the 42mm objective and the fact its a new core technology. TAU 2.
Besides, I cant afford the zeus 5.
Not sure who youre referring to, but I dont work for Armasight or Night Vision Guys.
Armasight is made in Mountin View Kalifornia. The Flit TAU 2 is manufactured in Kalifornia as well.
Armasights ads pics
For sure the images in all the ads are from the 640. You can tell if you look at the image that shows 8x magnification of the tire. The only FLIR Tau 2 Vox that offers 8x is the 640. For what I use it for the 160 is a minimum and should be adequate.
Armasight is the name of the company itself I thought and not a product? All I've ever read is thieir housings are all made in Russia. A few friends have been to some shows where they the company staff even said the gear was from Russia and handeled the gear personally. Looking at their gear does show much resemblance to the ATN Russian stuff I unfortunately owned. No more of that.
You work for this company so how do you know all this information about them?
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Hey everybody I just joined the forum. I am on a few other forums and thought I better get in on the action here. I look forward to the fun.
I just got a Zeus 320 core(336x256) 3X in. I also have a Thor 320 3X to compare it side by side so I will do that in the next week or so. I will post my overall thoughts on the Zeus in a few weeks but will include initial thoughts below. It's my experience that the only way to get a good understanding of the units is to spend a little time with them. No amount of surfing the web will give you what you need to know, but 30 minutes with a unit in your hand is very educational. All the manufacturers are gonna freak out because they don't want their sales to go down, and all the current thermal scope owners are gonna freak out because the new Zeus unit is cheaper than what they paid and they cant imagine the thought of a better unit for less money. Time will tell if it's worth your dollar or not.
I can tell you that its a FLIR Tau 2 VOx core. I have never heard of a FLIR Tau or Tau 2 that is not a VOx core. It came with the regular and iris eyepiece and cable which is usually something you have to buy extra. The main differences I see so far in the Zeus and the ThoR and most other thermals are the auto NUC, weight, external power and menu/software. The Zeus is a shuttered NUC(calibration) and most other units are manual NUC. This just allows you to not have to worry about calibrating the unit, but since the screen freezes when the unit NUCs that could be an issue if its mid shot. There is a NUC count down feature on the Zeus that tells you when the NUC is coming, but I couldn't find a way to cancel the NUC if I wanted to. I bet Armasight ends up changing that because its a disaster waiting to happen. Shooting opportunities shouldn't be missed because of the units unavoidable NUCing and that's what will happen if they don't add a NUC cancel. The zeus is very light, but there are components that are not Aluminum which worries some people. If it holds up I don't really care what its made of. It wwill get put through the ringer pretty darn quickly so within a couple months I will be able to tell if its going to fall apart. I don't think it will, but we will see. There is an external power option which is cool, but they sent me a power cord and no wall or car charger. If there isn't a fail safe in this thing than there will be a lot of morons that plug it in the wall and fry it. The software is intuitive. Its a enter and exit style with arrows and a center enter button. IF you hold the center button the menu goes away, otherwise you will have to back out of up to 3 or maybe 4 menus I think. There is a standby feature with a wireless on/off button. Definitely not a tactical feature and more of a hunting feature. It takes picture which is cool. The on off button looks like it would break if you dropped it. I have no idea why they made it a knob on the top of the unit.
That's all I got so far. If its allowed I will post pictures and videos and maybe even a kill shot or 2.
I just got a Zeus 320 core(336x256) 3X in. I also have a Thor 320 3X to compare it side by side so I will do that in the next week or so. I will post my overall thoughts on the Zeus in a few weeks but will include initial thoughts below. It's my experience that the only way to get a good understanding of the units is to spend a little time with them. No amount of surfing the web will give you what you need to know, but 30 minutes with a unit in your hand is very educational. All the manufacturers are gonna freak out because they don't want their sales to go down, and all the current thermal scope owners are gonna freak out because the new Zeus unit is cheaper than what they paid and they cant imagine the thought of a better unit for less money. Time will tell if it's worth your dollar or not.
I can tell you that its a FLIR Tau 2 VOx core. I have never heard of a FLIR Tau or Tau 2 that is not a VOx core. It came with the regular and iris eyepiece and cable which is usually something you have to buy extra. The main differences I see so far in the Zeus and the ThoR and most other thermals are the auto NUC, weight, external power and menu/software. The Zeus is a shuttered NUC(calibration) and most other units are manual NUC. This just allows you to not have to worry about calibrating the unit, but since the screen freezes when the unit NUCs that could be an issue if its mid shot. There is a NUC count down feature on the Zeus that tells you when the NUC is coming, but I couldn't find a way to cancel the NUC if I wanted to. I bet Armasight ends up changing that because its a disaster waiting to happen. Shooting opportunities shouldn't be missed because of the units unavoidable NUCing and that's what will happen if they don't add a NUC cancel. The zeus is very light, but there are components that are not Aluminum which worries some people. If it holds up I don't really care what its made of. It wwill get put through the ringer pretty darn quickly so within a couple months I will be able to tell if its going to fall apart. I don't think it will, but we will see. There is an external power option which is cool, but they sent me a power cord and no wall or car charger. If there isn't a fail safe in this thing than there will be a lot of morons that plug it in the wall and fry it. The software is intuitive. Its a enter and exit style with arrows and a center enter button. IF you hold the center button the menu goes away, otherwise you will have to back out of up to 3 or maybe 4 menus I think. There is a standby feature with a wireless on/off button. Definitely not a tactical feature and more of a hunting feature. It takes picture which is cool. The on off button looks like it would break if you dropped it. I have no idea why they made it a knob on the top of the unit.
That's all I got so far. If its allowed I will post pictures and videos and maybe even a kill shot or 2.
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post was supposed to go here http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...tics-tws-13a-l-tws-13d-l-personal-review.html
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Like I said before I dont work for Armasight. I talked to the sales rep at length about the product. You can have your conspiracty theory if you like, but I have no reason to doubt what he said. Maybe in the past they did mfg. in Russia, I didnt ask him that.
I know, parts come from Russia and it's assembled in the USA so hey, what the heck it's made here. This is so much like ATN along with the deceiving advertisements. No thanks.
I guess I can call them too, and get free gear like other posters around here and give them free advertising. Glad the site admin gentlemen above saw right through all this.
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Since this thread has been severly derailed I will post a comment.
Not everything in this sport/hobby/past-time is rooted in money therefore all posts in what I percieve to be an open, free, forum for users should NOT be judged as or called out to be "advertising".
You know nothing, about anything, pertaining to each users independent study of a product, how they come to possess a product also should have no bearing upon how the unit performs.
When I go to gun shows, trade shows, hell when I got to the breakfast diner to meet other avid users and enthusiast - I ask hey, have you ever heard of product XYZ or used one, hey what did you think?
In my opinion a lot of what has been introduced into this thread is baseless, highly opinionated, and contrary to consumers clicking on the thread to see what the users experience was with the product.
I enjoy the hobby/sport/past-time I can't afford to buy everything I want, so typically I buy a unit, use it for six months and sell it to buy a different unit to try it out, so on and so forth. Along the way I do field/test reviews and share my experiences with others so as a fellow consumer they can factor it into their purchase decision.
Next thing I expect to hear is that I am providing a service to others.
Nope, simply here to learn and educate, if windows or doors open for freebies or perks sobeit, I have the right to accept them or not.
Do I have to show you or others receipts and/or be subjected to ridicule for my time/money spent? Heck no!
I hope we continue to see reviews of all various products in this NV forum whether they be from TNVC / MODarmory / NVguys / ATN / Armasight / Pulsar / FLIR / etc etc....
If not, follow me elsewhere - this isn't the only show in town to share experiences.
BB
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I guess the site admin (jest read his profile, the owner of the site) did not agree with you here on this thread Bennybone now did he? I've been to many other sites where this stuff got out of hand with users getting free gear, drastic discounts for reviews on on-line. Many of them like ATN (which I read the ex-President is now the owner of Armasight?) and others got caught at it and were booted off for this king of crap. It seems it's going on here now, and that is a real loss. You also mentioned the other paying sponsors who I think pay big bucks to be here, how is that fair to all them? They now have to shill folks to give out gear for reviews to keep up?
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[MENTION=39114]Bennybone[/MENTION],
you mean this isn't a blatant advertisement from someone pretending to have no dog in the fight ?
I mean it says, "THERMAL OUTFITTERS" if I google that it won't be a company advertising "a" product with their company watermark on the image.
This is what pisses a lot of people off, the dealer or others who come on and pretend they are an "Average Joe" just out having fun, and next think you know they are company, some who will then Private Message people to make a sale.
This site has a been around for a long time, it's not our first rodeo as we have seen it all. It's a business, they are a business, if I walked into their store wandered around, gave my opinion, and then sat their suggesting their customers shop somewhere else across town they would ask me to leave I am sure. I can't camp out in front Bob's store and tell people to shop at Billy's cause that is what it is happening. They companies that play it straight are to be protected as my customers... we can't stop everyone and guys who are truly giving an opinion, we have no issue with. But when "shills" arrive we have to do our best to limit their interaction.
nothing personal there BennyBone, but if you are found at other places giving your opinion, maybe you should stay there.
you mean this isn't a blatant advertisement from someone pretending to have no dog in the fight ?
I mean it says, "THERMAL OUTFITTERS" if I google that it won't be a company advertising "a" product with their company watermark on the image.
This is what pisses a lot of people off, the dealer or others who come on and pretend they are an "Average Joe" just out having fun, and next think you know they are company, some who will then Private Message people to make a sale.
This site has a been around for a long time, it's not our first rodeo as we have seen it all. It's a business, they are a business, if I walked into their store wandered around, gave my opinion, and then sat their suggesting their customers shop somewhere else across town they would ask me to leave I am sure. I can't camp out in front Bob's store and tell people to shop at Billy's cause that is what it is happening. They companies that play it straight are to be protected as my customers... we can't stop everyone and guys who are truly giving an opinion, we have no issue with. But when "shills" arrive we have to do our best to limit their interaction.
nothing personal there BennyBone, but if you are found at other places giving your opinion, maybe you should stay there.
Personally, if you are a company and plan on advertising or posting here you should do a sponsorship. I say that because it’s only fair to others who pay plus it helps support the site/forums. That said being a member here I also would like review products myself which I pay market price for and not get jumped by other dealers or their crew because it’s not a product they carry or sell. As far as Thermal Outfitters, I have spoken to them in the past very informative guys who rent/sale a lot of thermal product with lots of real field use with the products they sale. I say Thermal Outfitters become a sponsor of this site you have a lot of thermal experience and offer something I don’t see here renting of thermal gear so that should be good for the forum members.
@ Lowlight
I would expect that shills would be handled on a one to one basis and directly with that user not by policing threads and giving slanted opinions on company's products that are new to market.
You should embrace users such as myself who are willing to step forward and cry foul no matter the persons involved.
My previous comment above was given in an attempt to re-establish some focus on the original posters offering to do a user review.
If this doesn't clarify where I am coming from then I am done trying to explain.
I have some other reviews planned in the near term for some other NV products, if you'd rather I post those on other sites then please just let me know.
Ben
I would expect that shills would be handled on a one to one basis and directly with that user not by policing threads and giving slanted opinions on company's products that are new to market.
You should embrace users such as myself who are willing to step forward and cry foul no matter the persons involved.
My previous comment above was given in an attempt to re-establish some focus on the original posters offering to do a user review.
If this doesn't clarify where I am coming from then I am done trying to explain.
I have some other reviews planned in the near term for some other NV products, if you'd rather I post those on other sites then please just let me know.
Ben
[MENTION=39114]Bennybone[/MENTION],
you mean this isn't a blatant advertisement from someone pretending to have no dog in the fight ?
I mean it says, "THERMAL OUTFITTERS" if I google that it won't be a company advertising "a" product with their company watermark on the image.
This is what pisses a lot of people off, the dealer or others who come on and pretend they are an "Average Joe" just out having fun, and next think you know they are company, some who will then Private Message people to make a sale.
This site has a been around for a long time, it's not our first rodeo as we have seen it all. It's a business, they are a business, if I walked into their store wandered around, gave my opinion, and then sat their suggesting their customers shop somewhere else across town they would ask me to leave I am sure. I can't camp out in front Bob's store and tell people to shop at Billy's cause that is what it is happening. They companies that play it straight are to be protected as my customers... we can't stop everyone and guys who are truly giving an opinion, we have no issue with. But when "shills" arrive we have to do our best to limit their interaction.
nothing personal there BennyBone, but if you are found at other places giving your opinion, maybe you should stay there.
My bad bud. Case of the Mondays? I was posting from my phone, and that was supposed to go on the TWS thread. I corrected the post. If you look, those images are for that specific scope and nobody has any images posted from that particular scope. All I was doing is trying to help.
Here is my problem; I have had people steal my images. These images are not easy to get. They take time, effort and money. I am sorry if my watermark offends anyone but did the thermal images not benefit every user interested in the TWS13 thread? If yall don't want to see them hell that's fine by me. I didn't post any links or pick a side. If you haven't noticed I am not tied to any manufacturer. That means my dog in the fight is the end user(which includes you). I get if someone is biased to a manufacturer because they work for them, but that's not my situation. I am here to help and try not to get screwed in the process.
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Talking to them one on one doesn't solve the problem and then others think it is ok because they never get the hint. Private hints to a public problem is not the solution.
One on One with these types of things don't work. That I can promise you that, as I said, i have been running this site since 2000, I think I know how to handle my business better than most. If you have ideas on how to do it better I suggest buying a domain and going to work.
I mean it is pretty clean on the main page of this forum, it says,
Is that direct enough ?
As far as private individuals doing reviews, we generally don't say anything, however more and more people try to skirt the rules by "asking" their buddies to post the reviews. Sure they don't work for the company, but hang out there all the time. The flag for most is when "Joe Shooter" gets the stuff for free to review. Why ? Is the only criteria to get something for free is whiling to post on a forum, or to own a gun ? Normally no... unless.
NV is a highly competitive area, not to mention expensive, so that mean people account for every dollar spent. If you are missing the big picture and don't like how we do business then maybe I suggest you don't come back. Clearly you ignore my direct question, do you feel it was ok for Thermal Outfitters to directly advertise on here, and when you rented your stuff for review did you rent it from Thermal Outfitters ? Seems to me that might be the case and why you avoid those key points
One on One with these types of things don't work. That I can promise you that, as I said, i have been running this site since 2000, I think I know how to handle my business better than most. If you have ideas on how to do it better I suggest buying a domain and going to work.
I mean it is pretty clean on the main page of this forum, it says,
Is that direct enough ?
As far as private individuals doing reviews, we generally don't say anything, however more and more people try to skirt the rules by "asking" their buddies to post the reviews. Sure they don't work for the company, but hang out there all the time. The flag for most is when "Joe Shooter" gets the stuff for free to review. Why ? Is the only criteria to get something for free is whiling to post on a forum, or to own a gun ? Normally no... unless.
NV is a highly competitive area, not to mention expensive, so that mean people account for every dollar spent. If you are missing the big picture and don't like how we do business then maybe I suggest you don't come back. Clearly you ignore my direct question, do you feel it was ok for Thermal Outfitters to directly advertise on here, and when you rented your stuff for review did you rent it from Thermal Outfitters ? Seems to me that might be the case and why you avoid those key points
So forum members are supposed to just shut up and not post any NV reviews? WOW that sounds like a fun forum. You know, there are places where the forum members are still free. I didn't know this was one of the prison camp forums. Are you a moderator? If so, the way to get business for your forum is to ask politely not throw a tantrum and try to alienate people. If you or anyone else would like to call Thermal Outfitters I think you might be surprised at the level of respect(and money) you could possibly get. Ask for Tyler. That's me. Business owners can help you so I would humbly and respectfully advise to act like it. Or, keep on bitching and I will walk on.
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@ Lowlight -
Okay I see it is all about the money and when you ask me a question it isn't about the product or the experience - tell you what I will do.
I'll rent from whichever vendor on this site rents thermal equipment, who'd that be?
Oh and how about this, being that I now fully understand how this site works, I will give my reviews and not my opinions. Baseless opinions given in my review threads, about company origins / company ties / advertising / shilling / etc etc etc won't be answered or addressed. It's the least I can do to keep the peace and since I chose to join the site I do have respect for its owners / members / vendors.
I will hold myself to that standard because that is who I am.
I hope others can do the same and leave it at that.
Ben
Okay I see it is all about the money and when you ask me a question it isn't about the product or the experience - tell you what I will do.
I'll rent from whichever vendor on this site rents thermal equipment, who'd that be?
Oh and how about this, being that I now fully understand how this site works, I will give my reviews and not my opinions. Baseless opinions given in my review threads, about company origins / company ties / advertising / shilling / etc etc etc won't be answered or addressed. It's the least I can do to keep the peace and since I chose to join the site I do have respect for its owners / members / vendors.
I will hold myself to that standard because that is who I am.
I hope others can do the same and leave it at that.
Ben
Talk about a WOW. You just proved the site Admin's point. You just now declared who you were after posting all this all the while your customer reviewed a product he got from you. This is called shilling.
They won't be back...
This is exactly what causes issues, in one breathe they attack me for addressing a problem in the next breathe the admit to doing exactly what we are talking about.
Guess what I have no need for their money, their business or their reviews.
This is exactly what causes issues, in one breathe they attack me for addressing a problem in the next breathe the admit to doing exactly what we are talking about.
Guess what I have no need for their money, their business or their reviews.
I'm sorry
I never realized that a simple question I asked about the Zeus 4 would turn into such a $h.t storm! I just upgraded before I even got the 4 to the 3 so I'll move on to create a thread somewhere else. This site seems a bit uptight.
Good night.
I never realized that a simple question I asked about the Zeus 4 would turn into such a $h.t storm! I just upgraded before I even got the 4 to the 3 so I'll move on to create a thread somewhere else. This site seems a bit uptight.
Good night.
Seriously dude??? This site is not uptight....if you think it is...go to ARF and see that BS that goes on over there and other forums. I belong to many forums and will say SH is by far the best forum. Frank and his mods along with senior members don't put up with the crap that goes on other forums. This is a free country...if you don't like SH...BYE.
Armasight Zeus reviews
Watch this video Armasight Zeus Review.
Also here Armasight Zeus 2 Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope (320x240) - TAT263WN7ZEUS02 you can check out descriptions and specifications.
Watch this video Armasight Zeus Review.
Also here Armasight Zeus 2 Thermal Imaging Rifle Scope (320x240) - TAT263WN7ZEUS02 you can check out descriptions and specifications.
None of the people I sell Armasight products to have complained about them sucking as of yet. You would at least like the core though, since it is a FLIR Tau2.
Did not mean to single you out, just commenting on this thread where many opinions were stated.....
Sorry, only reason I brought this up is to show how things have changed since then,any players that were big on certain manufacturers back then no longer support those lines anymore. My bad for mentioning Armasight, there are many others
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?
You're good. I certainly see where you are coming from. Threads like this show that everyone's got their ford/chevy. Too bad for consumer's that thermals are priced to where you don't get end user's buying one of each to do reviews. Dealers are obviously going to tout the ones they carry, and at $5-$15k apiece, we don't really see individuals buying them all to test.
