Rifle Scopes Assuming they are the same price, which scope?

[cj10]

I have the opportunity to purchase a Schmidt PM11 5-25 or a Vortex Gen 11 4.5-27 at the same price. Both new scopes.

Am drawn to the brand name associated with SB but appreciate all the excellent feedback here for the Vortex. Both will work out here in the UK for me at about $2700.

Going to used on my DTA SRS, purely for target shooting out to 1200 yards.

Which would you choose given the equal price?

 

[mackdrvr]

Same price? Dude......please get the S&B.

 

[DroidSniper]

Get the Schmidt man, and get it now as stop what you are doing and buy the thing.

 

[Bill Larson]

never looked at that model vortex......S&B is world renowned.... however..... I know of several that have gone back for a long wait service.... Vortex is building their reputation on customer satisfaction and from the people I shoot with are doing it better than S&B...

 

[19Scout77]

Customer satisfaction??? Are you sure you did not intend to say customer service??

 

[Rob01]

Customer satisfaction??? Are you sure you did not intend to say customer service??

Don't confuse the recent forum hate for the PSTs with the Razor line. Apples and oranges.

I will probably be selling my S&B 5-25 in the coming months to replace it with a Razor II. Yes they are that good.

 

[1911fan]

I took a Nightforce 5.5-22 off to put a Razor on.

Any company that makes high-end optics is going to produce defective items. How they handle them is what makes the difference in your purchasing decision. IF you get a bad S&B or NF, you won't be happy. I've read of delays in folks getting their S&Bs repaired, and my experience with NF customer service has just left me pissed off.
Vortex honors their no BS warranty promptly. Am I a fan? Hell yes, look left. Have I had a bad Vortex? Yes, I have, and a new scope was in my hands in about a week. No questions, no forms to fill out, no delays. I called them and told them what I thought was wrong, sent it in, got my new scope. Shazam!
This warranty is good for life, regardless of when/where you got it.


1911fan

 

[cjgemm]

Get the SB, if not just for the resale value.

 

[jbell]

I cant answer because I have not had the chance to shoot the new Razor. However I have plenty of time with many PMIIs and they are the benchmark for me. I have had two go down and both were still holding zero and useable through out the elevation range and magnification range they just died in the windage plane. But like I said you would not know it holding for wind and dialing elevation. And the most recent one was a 4 year old scope that was sent back last summer and was repaired with in 2 or 3 days. Hard to complain about that C.S.

That being said the new Razor is looking like it will be a great scope, on par with the K624I, PMII, & the BEAST. There are a lot of great scopes out there today...

 

[JB02]

Get the Vortex. I bought a S&B PMII a little over a year ago and wish I had held out for the new Gen II. If someone offered, I would seriously consider doing a trade. The Gen II has no tunneling at low power, has extremely crisp turrets and is built like a freaking tank!

 

[samnev]

I'd say the S&B but be aware they now offer only a 2 year warranty.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Well, to help out, I would think along the lines of past performance. The Vortex has a limited history of performance. The Schimdt and Bender has a significant amount of history.

Looking at these tests (so far) indicate that the Schmidt, when stacked against one of the Vortex scopes (not the Razor Gen II), did very well: Tactical Scopes: Field Test Overview & Rifle Scope Line-Up | PrecisionRifleBlog.com . The Vortex was near the bottom on many of the tests. Is this a predictor of future performance, I will let the OP decide.

My recommendation would be to go a design with proven performance over one that is very new. That is not to say that Vortex is inferior. I love my Vortex scope, but when stacking them next to a comparable Schmidt and Bender, the Schmidt wins HANDS DOWN.

 

[cj10]

Thanks for all your input so far.

Have to admit I'm a bit of a brand whore.

Currently have a NXS on my DTA and my AW, but want that little bit more from the glass. I know optical clarity, etc is subjective but I noticed the difference between my Nightforces and the PM11/ Vortex. My eyes could not separate the PM11 and the Vortex.

My head is saying Vortex, but my heart is telling me Schmidt solely due to the name. There is even a demo T5Xi here in the UK, so may need to have a look through that before I reach a decision.

 

[Donr13]

I vote S&B

 

[cramey74]

S&B all the way..

 

[1911fan]

...the Schmidt wins HANDS DOWN.

If it's so great, why is there only a two-year warranty?


1911fan

 

[Rob01]

Looking at these tests (so far) indicate that the Schmidt, when stacked against one of the Vortex scopes (not the Razor Gen II), did very well: Tactical Scopes: Field Test Overview & Rifle Scope Line-Up | PrecisionRifleBlog.com . The Vortex was near the bottom on many of the tests. Is this a predictor of future performance, I will let the OP decide.

My recommendation would be to go a design with proven performance over one that is very new. That is not to say that Vortex is inferior. I love my Vortex scope, but when stacking them next to a comparable Schmidt and Bender, the Schmidt wins HANDS DOWN.

That is the Razor I. Not the Razor II. If you try and judge the Razor II by that comparison and give recommendations from it you are doing yourself and whoever you are giving the recommendation to a disservice as they are completely different scopes. I had another Hide member and also a S&B owner out today to look at the Razor II and he was very impressed. Said it was as clear as his S&B.

Do you own a Razor II 4.5-27x?

 

[cramey74]

For the amount of money you will lose in resale on the Vortex you can use to fix your S&B PMII. Problem solved

 

[Lowlight]

Well, to help out, I would think along the lines of past performance. The Vortex has a limited history of performance. The Schimdt and Bender has a significant amount of history.

Looking at these tests (so far) indicate that the Schmidt, when stacked against one of the Vortex scopes (not the Razor Gen II), did very well: Tactical Scopes: Field Test Overview & Rifle Scope Line-Up | PrecisionRifleBlog.com . The Vortex was near the bottom on many of the tests. Is this a predictor of future performance, I will let the OP decide.

My recommendation would be to go a design with proven performance over one that is very new. That is not to say that Vortex is inferior. I love my Vortex scope, but when stacking them next to a comparable Schmidt and Bender, the Schmidt wins HANDS DOWN.

Nothing is gonna ruin the work done in this study than what is happening already...

Using the test to point to something that has no real bearing on the question, comparing a scope NOT on the test to what 6 people saw in the test. I can see this trend starting already and it will be the bane of everyone's existence when it comes to comparing scopes. If people are not gonna use it correctly, it's gonna cease to have value and constantly be shot down when comparing things that don't go together.

Logically, the choice would be to go with the S&B 5-25x, yes it pretty much the gold standard, however, you know nothing about the scope being offered up. Is it Mil / Mil or MOA / Mils, what reticle, how old, has it been in for service, should it be serviced. All valid questions in order to appropriately answer the question. What turrets ? Personally I would avoid the S&B Locking turrets when compared to the Vortex. What reticle ? Is it just a P4, or even a P3... in that case you lose on the S&B side of things as most don't want that. Correctly assumed the resale value should be higher with the S&B, so if you are getting it at $2700 you have to ask "why" is it that cheap, or is it because of another reason ?

The Vortex is an outstanding scope, right now it probably constitutes the best value in FFP scope today. When you balance, Cost, Features, and Quality, you have the best bang for you buck. (I believe the ATACR is the best scope in SFP) So, trying to compare it to a Gen 1, 5-20x is doing everyone a disservice and pointing to a test that doesn't include the new Razor HD GENII makes it even worse.

There are a lot of choices out there, we each should choose what best suits our needs and our budgets. When balancing all this you have to weigh long term, are you just gonna turn around and sell it because you bought something that everyone said was a deal, but because the features didn't match your needs are you just gonna have to resell it and buy something all over again. Basing decision on resale value alone is not enough.

Edited: he is in the UK so the S&B should be a better deal, providing it's not one with mis-matched features

 

[haroldwilson]

Ah, the great scope test. Arbiter of all things scope like, and the definer of scopiness.

What is the difference in an 8.8 score and a 9.1 score? How many lines of resolution?

Were any of the scope viewers wearing glasses? Contacts? If they weren't, did they need to be? Any of them suffering from astigmatism? Any of them not hold the scope the optimal distance from their eye?

And of course the most important question is, are you shooting at any targets with resolution test lines on them? If so, you better get one of the scopes that came out on top of the resolution test. Otherwise, how will you resolve the lines on your target?

 

[jbell]

Nothing is gonna ruin the work done in this study than what is happening already...

Using the test to point to something that has no real bearing on the question, comparing a scope NOT on the test to what 6 people saw in the test. I can see this trend starting already and it will be the bane of everyone's existence when it comes to comparing scopes. If people are not gonna use it correctly, it's gonna cease to have value and constantly be shot down when comparing things that don't go together.

Logically, the choice would be to go with the S&B 5-25x, yes it pretty much the gold standard, however, you know nothing about the scope being offered up. Is it Mil / Mil or MOA / Mils, what reticle, how old, has it been in for service, should it be serviced. All valid questions in order to appropriately answer the question. What turrets ? Personally I would avoid the S&B Locking turrets when compared to the Vortex. What reticle ? Is it just a P4, or even a P3... in that case you lose on the S&B side of things as most don't want that. Correctly assumed the resale value should be higher with the S&B, so if you are getting it at $2700 you have to ask "why" is it that cheap, or is it because of another reason ?

The Vortex is an outstanding scope, right now it probably constitutes the best value in FFP scope today. When you balance, Cost, Features, and Quality, you have the best bang for you buck. (I believe the ATACR is the best scope in SFP) So, trying to compare it to a Gen 1, 5-20x is doing everyone a disservice and pointing to a test that doesn't include the new Razor HD GENII makes it even worse.

There are a lot of choices out there, we each should choose what best suits our needs and our budgets. When balancing all this you have to weigh long term, are you just gonna turn around and sell it because you bought something that everyone said was a deal, but because the features didn't match your needs are you just gonna have to resell it and buy something all over again. Basing decision on resale value alone is not enough.

Edited: he is in the UK so the S&B should be a better deal, providing it's not one with mis-matched features

Very well said Frank. You mentioned a few things that should have been brought up in the first place. On paper the new Razor is bringing a lot to the table at a good price point, I look forward to seeing one. OP if both scopes have the features you are looking for then you will not be making a bad choice either way.

 

[alpine44]

Don't confuse the recent forum hate for the PSTs with the Razor line. Apples and oranges.

I will probably be selling my S&B 5-25 in the coming months to replace it with a Razor II. Yes they are that good.

Please send S&B a letter when you do and explain the reasons of your decision. Why? Because S&B might just realize that they are resting a little to comfortably on the laurels of lucrative LE and .mil sales. S&B used to manufacture bargain scopes offered through the German equivalents of Cabela's and BassPro. Within a relative short time frame they became the gold standard. Today, they just might need a kick in the groins to do better yet.

 

[Rob01]

Please send S&B a letter when you do and explain the reasons of your decision. Why? Because S&B might just realize that they are resting a little to comfortably on the laurels of lucrative LE and .mil sales. S&B used to manufacture bargain scopes offered through the German equivalents of Cabela's and BassPro. Within a relative short time frame they became the gold standard. Today, they just might need a kick in the groins to do better yet.

Not worth the time. Germany does what Germany wants to do. No amount of emails or letters will change that.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

If it's so great, why is there only a two-year warranty?


1911fan

Here is a good link to review: ECC-Net: consumer advice for your EU shopping trips: 2-year guarantee and more

It required all companies in the EU to provide a 2 year minimum warranty, but if you read the fine print, you will find that they have to even refund the money in full if there is no satisfaction. With the money refund requirement, it made sense for them to switch to the 2 year warranty. Could you imagine if someone purchased a scope, then used it for 10 years, then returned it with some kind of "default" and got their money back? Companies cannot create profit with that kind of exposure, it allows too much risk in the future that is almost impossible to account for. 2 years is much easier to handle.

Meanwhile, here is my personal experience with Schmidt and Bender on an issue I CREATED BY MYSELF: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...xcellent-customer-service-schmidt-bender.html

If you have any more questions, then you are simply looking for a way to knock down a great product. In which case, I challenge you to do better.

 

[ahhshoot]

Does anyone else get a kick out of the fact that there's an argument onom one of the most reputable shooting sites as to whether someone should buy an S&B or a Vortex? Kudos to vortex. The very fact that this thread exists is a testament to the value of their optics and I will now be searching for one.

 

[1911fan]

If you have any more questions, then you are simply looking for a way to knock down a great product. In which case, I challenge you to do better.

Interesting read on EU warranty, thanks. Answers what I considered to be a legitimate question. Vortex, at the ten-year mark, will still repair or replace the scope.


1911fan

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Interesting read on EU warranty, thanks. Answers what I considered to be a legitimate question. Vortex, at the ten-year mark, will still repair or replace the scope.


1911fan

But NOT refund you your money, like, let's say REI. That is a big difference in warranties. Meanwhile, I hear Ferrari offers only a 2 year warranty, doesn't seem to hurt their sales. I am sure this does not drive the buyer of a Ferrari to Hyundai because Hyundai has the much better warranty. Comparing scopes based on warranties is foolish, but that is just my opinion, be it totally humble.

 

[alpine44]

Not worth the time. Germany does what Germany wants to do. No amount of emails or letters will change that.

The amazing thing is that S&B solicits customer feedback on a German form (link: Ihre Meinung) but the English equivalent does not exist.

You probably cannot blame them considering for how long the American consumer market was (and probably still is) dominated by cheap, crappy rifle scopes.

Therein also lies the reason why I am a bit leery about Frank's comments about the relative importance of optical "niceness" in tactical scopes. Why give companies the impression that US customers would put up with anything but top grade?

 

[Lowlight]

Who says it is not top grade ? We get the same scopes as Europe, so if they are sampling that crowd it trickles down.

They have had more small mechanical issues than optical ones, and clearly they remain at the top of the Tactical Charts for optics. The 5-25x is the standard all scope companies use, the fact S&B hasn't felt the need to change it says a lot. The updates to the scope that have occurred are with reticles, turrets and locks, not glass. But even when I found issues with the locking turrets with two different scopes, there was very little concern and it was only addressed in other lines like the Ultra Shorts.

You guys can convolute a wet dream into thinking it something it's not. S&B is still considered a Tier One optic, and most companies are chasing them. The issue is other companies are equaling the quality of the optics and can do so for less money, so you see a lot less variation between something like a Vortex GENII and the S&B, but you have to ask how much better can anything get. Understand they cannot do better than Resolution of 2.0 and the 5-25x is rated by S&B at 3.0 however most companies have told me their test units routinely measure below that rating.(Below as in Better, 2.8 or better) So really, when you are comparing 2.8 vs 2.9 vs 2.7 how the heck are you gonna improve on that and not cost the end user even more than they are paying today.

You can't see any better, so why chase it ?

 

[swamp donkey]

I'd have the gen II vortex over a shite&bender any day


Regards

Pete

 

[cramey74]

I'd have the gen II vortex over a shite&bender any day


Regards

Pete

Donkey, you are either kidding or you are indeed a jackass.

 

[swamp donkey]

Donkey, you are either kidding or you are indeed a jackass.

Pound for pound (in the UK) I'd chose a vortex. I've had s&b before, and couldn't justify the extra cash over a vortex. S&b Cust service is dire, 3 returns to get a scope 'fixed' and was never right, vortex, get a problem, it gets swapped, forever, not just for the first two years. But then, I never shoot over 1500yds


Regards

Pete